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View Full Version : Tremorsense abuse (3.5)



sambo.
2009-07-13, 01:23 AM
my DM allowed my Drow fighter/mage soon-to-be arcane archer (we've modified the class somewhat) to take a Spider as a familiar.

after i took it he noticed it had tremorsense and has already threatened to fireball it.

so, what are some abuses i can do with 60' tremorsense? or what cheese might i wish to avoid to attempt to prolong the period before familiar fireballage occurs?

any ideas?

JellyPooga
2009-07-13, 01:50 AM
What's your GM got against Tremorsense? Especially in your Familiar...I mean, if it granted you tremorsense, that might be a different matter, but even then Tremorsense isn't that powerful...sure it allows you to pinpoint an otherwise invisible target, but you still suffer to hit penalties for it being invisible.

Tremorsense is not astoundingly powerful. I see no ways to abuse it and no reason for your GM to be freaking over that fact that your pet sider can sense the location of things up to 60' away that are in contact with the ground and invisible to the visual senses. He may as well start freaking over Scent, which must (in his book) be even more powerful because not only can it locate the position of things you can't see but it also gives to a bonus to Survival checks when Tracking a target (OMG!!!)

peacenlove
2009-07-13, 02:01 AM
As JellyPooga pointed above tremorsense isn't a strong sense and the dm can find many ways after 5th level to negate it (incorporealness and flying being the most common).
Another limiting factor is that your familiar must communicate with you in order to gain the benefit of tremorsence and if i remember correctly they have no intelligence.
That said you didn't tell us what level are you. Tremorsence IS strong until 5th level or until allips or shadows kick in (where you would have other problems :smalltongue:)

sambo.
2009-07-13, 02:02 AM
That said you didn't tell us what level are you. Tremorsence IS strong until 5th level or until allips or shadows kick in (where you would have other problems :smalltongue:)

i'm level 2 (1fighter/1wiz).

JellyPooga
2009-07-13, 02:13 AM
That said you didn't tell us what level are you. Tremorsence IS strong until 5th level or until allips or shadows kick in (where you would have other problems :smalltongue:)

I'm not so sure it is that good, even at those low levels...I mean, how many encounters involve invisible things down that end of the XP ladder anyway? Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, so that means 3rd level Wizard opponents. The obfuscation of Hide/Move Silent could be seen as something of a problem if the GM is looking to unload sneaky types at the players, but even then there are mundane ways around it...Tremorsense relies on the target to be in contact with the ground, so something as simple as swinging from a handy rope or vine negates it completely. It is also limited to a 60ft range, so arming your sneaky ambushers with bows and having them use guerilla tactics from beyond that range works as well, if not better than anything they could do within the range of the spiders Tremorsense.

peacenlove
2009-07-13, 02:13 AM
i'm level 2 (1fighter/1wiz).

I see then :) still the fact that your familiar and not you has tremorsense is limiting enough.
Think of it as a really limited uncanny dodge ability, the rogue gets it at second level (you cannot identify your enemies but you can sense they are there hence the comparison).

peacenlove
2009-07-13, 02:21 AM
I'm not so sure it is that good, even at those low levels...I mean, how many encounters involve invisible things down that end of the XP ladder anyway? Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, so that means 3rd level Wizard opponents. The obfuscation of Hide/Move Silent could be seen as something of a problem if the GM is looking to unload sneaky types at the players, but even then there are mundane ways around it...Tremorsense relies on the target to be in contact with the ground, so something as simple as swinging from a handy rope or vine negates it completely. It is also limited to a 60ft range, so arming your sneaky ambushers with bows and having them use guerilla tactics from beyond that range works as well, if not better than anything they could do within the range of the spiders Tremorsense.

I understand your concerns. Let me defend my point that it is a passive ability and a sight enchanting one. Also how common are encounters (unless you are running a swashbucler campaign) that involve the use of the use rope skill? Normal sight isn't granted even by low levels (for example a dark corridor or through a fog). Lastly by forcing your opponents to attack from afar you deny them the use of sneak attacks and close range spells (such as ray of enfeeblement)

Keld Denar
2009-07-13, 02:38 AM
About the best thing Tremorsense lets you do it to pinpoint a foe. Once you've done that, its mearly a matter of dropping a fat Glitterdust on his heiny. It doesn't matter if you save against the Glitterdust, the -40 to be hidden is pretty damning. Even invisbile foes will show up plain as day with that. And if they fail their save? BONUS KUDOS. Thats all there is to it. Get those 2 more levels of wizard and start rawkin out with one of the most OP 2nd level spell in the game!

JellyPooga
2009-07-13, 02:38 AM
I understand your concerns. Let me defend my point that it is a passive ability and a sight enchanting one. Also how common are encounters (unless you are running a swashbucler campaign) that involve the use of the use rope skill? Normal sight isn't granted even by low levels (for example a dark corridor or through a fog). Lastly by forcing your opponents to attack from afar you deny them the use of sneak attacks and close range spells (such as ray of enfeeblement)

Whilst you do deny Sneak Attack by attacking from a radius of 60ft, getting close enough to SA is hard enough even without the presence of Tremorsense...In the particular case of the OP, enemies with Darkvision can't use it to their advantage because the OP is playing a Drow and magical Darkness prevents SA for everyone involved.

With regards to close range spells, Verbal components give the jig away for stealthy mages and there's no reason why you couldn't use longer ranged spells anyway...sure the close ranged spells tend to be a little more powerful, but there's still a wealth of spells out there that could be used instead.

True enough about the rope thing, but that's just a matter of style...if the enemies have trouble sneaking up on the party because of the spider, then next time (assuming intelligent foes that can actually use their brain, gather intel on the PCs and adapt to their style) they will be looking to negate the advantage that it grants; cue creative thinking (on the part of the NPCs).

Ichneumon
2009-07-13, 02:44 AM
The problem I see here is that your DM might be afraid to let you enjoy any advantage of your familiar with his tremoresense. The right attitude for a DM is to create sitautions in which each character can shine. So he should create at least one encounter in which the tremorsense is useful.

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-13, 12:55 PM
So your DM gave you a special familiar, and now he wants to kill it since it's "overpowered"? That's no way to go about it. The death of your familiar will be a heavy hit to your character, and might even result in the loss of a level. If the DM really has a problem with it, he should revoke it and make you get a new familiar, rather than kill it and have you end up less powerful than you'd be if you had taken an ordinary familiar in the first place.

Myrmex
2009-07-13, 01:06 PM
I'm not so sure it is that good, even at those low levels...I mean, how many encounters involve invisible things down that end of the XP ladder anyway? Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, so that means 3rd level Wizard opponents. The obfuscation of Hide/Move Silent could be seen as something of a problem if the GM is looking to unload sneaky types at the players, but even then there are mundane ways around it...Tremorsense relies on the target to be in contact with the ground, so something as simple as swinging from a handy rope or vine negates it completely. It is also limited to a 60ft range, so arming your sneaky ambushers with bows and having them use guerilla tactics from beyond that range works as well, if not better than anything they could do within the range of the spiders Tremorsense.

Tremorsense is good because it doesn't need LoE or LoS. You can tell if there are creatures behind doors or on the other sides of walls. It also negates a lot of sneaky builds without the darkstalker feat. For many enemies, tremorsense pretty much negates most of their advantage.

Purposefully having every encounter with sneaky types start at 2 range increments out to screw over your player's class feature is poor DMing.

JellyPooga
2009-07-13, 01:17 PM
Purposefully having every encounter with sneaky types start at 2 range increments out to screw over your player's class feature is poor DMing.

I wasn't saying it was good or bad DMing, I was just pointing out that Tremorsense is easily negated if you know that you're up againt it in advance (and if you're playing something that would actually be hindered by tremorsense, like an ambush, then the ambushers are often likely to know who it is they're ambushing and compensate for whatever abilities they have...it's not a case of good/bad DMing, it's just the sort of thing I'd expect from an intelligently played encounter)

Roderick_BR
2009-07-13, 01:53 PM
As JellyPooga pointed above tremorsense isn't a strong sense and the dm can find many ways after 5th level to negate it (incorporealness and flying being the most common).
Another limiting factor is that your familiar must communicate with you in order to gain the benefit of tremorsence and if i remember correctly they have no intelligence.
That said you didn't tell us what level are you. Tremorsence IS strong until 5th level or until allips or shadows kick in (where you would have other problems :smalltongue:)
Since it's a familiar, it will have some intelligence. It'll be fun to have your pet spider poking you and pointing to some direction ("there it comes") but hardly a game breaking ability.

Ernir
2009-07-13, 02:15 PM
after i took it he noticed it had tremorsense and has already threatened to fireball it.
Oops. Sorry, that was really not supposed to sound like a threat, it was supposed to be an offhand joke. Damn internet. :smallfrown:

I admit it did catch me off guard a bit. But who cares, it is just one of the bajillion unexpected things that pop up in the average party.
Besides, I doubt it will mess up more ambushes than a flying familiar on scouting duty would. :smalltongue:

Your spider is as safe as the Sorcerer's weasel. I am not about to fill the city with arachnophobic wizards and spider-eating plants for no reason but that I have never had someone who could tremorsense in an ECL 4 party.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-13, 03:08 PM
i'm level 2 (1fighter/1wiz).

This is your problem. According to Complete Scoundrel, you should not have that kind of familiar until your Wizard level is around 5th or 7th, and only if you take Improved Familiar.

hamishspence
2009-07-13, 03:23 PM
It might be a Monsters of Faerun Hairy Spider.

These can be taken by any wizard, but bestow no Skill bonus of any sort.

I think there are others- maybe in Dragon magazine.

Fitz10019
2009-07-13, 05:11 PM
Tremorsense is good because it doesn't need LoE or LoS. You can tell if there are creatures behind doors or on the other sides of walls. It also negates a lot of sneaky builds without the darkstalker feat. For many enemies, tremorsense pretty much negates most of their advantage.

Not exactly RAW, but I'd be tempted to rule that the spider's tremorsense does not work unless it is in contact with the ground, too, or a web that touches a surface connected to the ground. I don't think sitting on the shoulder of a mage provides a good tremorsense conduit.

So, want to check for invisible foes? Take a move action to deposit spidey on the ground. He can use a standard action to check, and a free action to inform the mage.

Just my 2 cents.