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Admiral Squish
2009-07-13, 01:24 AM
While my attempt at a knight was a complete and utter flop, I have managed to come up with a simply delicious replacement and lots of yummy backstory. A 9th Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Bronze Dragon Shaman. He'll be able to help out with healing and buffs, at the same time filling in a role of semi-tank. But now is the hard part. The crunch. What sort of weapons should I get him? Feats? Where should I invest my skills? Tactical advice? He's clearly not going to be a major damage-dealer due to his size and necessarily low strength score, but I still need to be up close to the action to let the others benefit from my auras.

I've got 14 str, 16 dex, 18 con, 10 int, 12 wis and 18 cha, 2 skill points/level, and 50k gold to spend on gear. GO!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-13, 02:23 AM
For your feats I'd get Combat Reflexes, Dragontouched, Entangling Exhalation, and Frightful Presence starting out, then pick up Double Draconic Aura, Ability Focus: Frightful Presence, and maybe Imperious Command. If you can use flaws, take Shield Specialization and Shield Ward, I'd probably get Shaky and Murky-Eyed.

Get magical mithral full plate, an animated heavy steel shield, and a magical longspear, and remember your natural bite attack will still threaten adjacent squares. Use your breath weapon with Entangling Exhalation as often as possible, that and being shaken from Frightful Presence will give everything a -4 to hit among other penalties. You'll probably be able to get a lot of AoOs since they'll be moving at half speed, and you can also make Intimidate checks to demoralize your foes. Hopefully your opponents would rather fight you than risk AoOs trying to reach the rest of your party. If anything does get by you that's already shaken you can demoralize it into frightened and it will try to flee.

Hat-Trick
2009-07-13, 03:25 AM
Question of why Dex has the 16? You're the (semi-) tank. It would probably be better in strength, where damage and hit can benefit from it.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-13, 04:40 AM
What exactly are the requirements for Double Draconic Aura? I hear a lot about it but I can't find it in any of my books. I can guess the effects, I just dunnos the prereq's.

Honestly, frightful presence seems a little out of character on a small sized crocodile-man. How intimidating can you be at three-foot six? Certainly not enough to send an ogre running. The mental image I have here makes me think of a small, yappy dog.

What about the metabreath feats from draconomicon? Those seem like they'd be pretty useful. Especial recover breath and clinging breath. Maximize breath would be good in certain situations, too.

I'm not sure why everyone's so ga-ga over entangling exhalation. Entangled just drops them to half speed and makes spellcasters have some minor trouble casting. For that, I drop half my damage, and the effect only lasts a turn or two. It would probably be more useful with a cone, but I don't think I'll get a lot of battlefield control out of a thirty-foot line. Especially if I have to spend two feats to get it.

I seem to have the same problem every time I make a thread like this. I'm not really looking for 'this is how you break the game' advice. I'm more concerned about having an interesting, semi-plausible character than having the most powerful character possible. I mean, yeah, the guy with the longspear, animated shield and frightful presence works on paper, but he looks pretty silly on the battlefield.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-13, 04:42 AM
Question of why Dex has the 16? You're the (semi-) tank. It would probably be better in strength, where damage and hit can benefit from it.

That's actually a fourteen. Poison Dusk has a +2 racial to dex, which makes it a sixteen.

Hat-Trick
2009-07-13, 04:55 AM
Ignore me, then. :smallbiggrin:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-13, 05:21 AM
Double Draconic Aura is in Dragon Magic, it requires level 12.

Entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) gives them -2 to attack rolls and -4 Dex, on top of dropping their speed by half. Frightful Presence makes them Shaken, for another -2 on attack rolls and saving throws. That's -4 to hit, -2 AC, and -4 to Reflex saves, plus you can get some good tactical positioning because it will be impossible for anything to outmaneuver you. The -4 to hit may as well be a +4 to your AC, or +6 if they use Weapon Finesse. Frightful Presence is a dragon-themed feat, which I would expect to fit any character of this class.

Dragon Shaman is not a damage dealer, 1/2 level d6 is no significant amount, and cutting it in half for a no-save significant debuff and tactical advantage is well worth it. Recover Breath would be worth getting just because you could spam your Entangles more often, but none of the damage-based Metabreath feats will be worthwhile. A Dragon Shaman doesn't really have anything significantly helpful to do between breaths, other than maybe using Intimidate to demoralize an opponent. Further delaying your time between breaths will only hurt you in the long run. It doesn't work to play it as a damage dealer because it's severely lacking in damage capabilities, but it makes an excellent debuffer/buffer who's super tanky and can do spot healing or remove negative conditions when necessary. Just because an ability can deal damage doesn't mean that's the best primary use for it, and a Dragon Shaman's breath attack is a good example of that. Keep the opponents entangled, keep them from reaching the rest of the party, keep them angry at you for doing it, and you'll make a better tank than most defense-based classes.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-13, 07:48 AM
Im a ig fan of the sticky breath and entanling breath.. all of my group realy like those..

Person_Man
2009-07-13, 09:45 AM
While my attempt at a knight was a complete and utter flop,

Did you read the Knight's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429)?


A 9th Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Bronze Dragon Shaman.

Is your DM allowing Level Adjustment buyoff? Because otherwise, the +1 LA isn't worth it.


But now is the hard part. The crunch. What sort of weapons should I get him? Feats? Where should I invest my skills? Tactical advice?

Have you considered playing a Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) instead? It's pretty much the fixed version of the Dragon Shaman.

But assuming you don't, let's take an inventory of your abilities: You've got +6 BAB, some minor auras, a breath weapon that deals 4d6 damage, Water Breathing, a couple of immunities, some backup healing, plus Intimidate as a class Skill. Not much to work with. But here is my advice:

While it may not be in character, Fear effects are definitely worth looking into. They're very strong against mook rushes. Take Frightful Presence, learn to use Intimidate (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911167) (use Imperious Command), and buy a weapon with the Subjugating (Heroes of Battle) or Roaring (Book of Exalted Deeds) enhancements.

Take Use Magic Device cross class. With your Cha, you should be able to hit the (static) DC's reasonably well. Buy lots of useful low level wands.

Like everyone else, I second Entangling Exhalation. Combine with any other combo to deal Dex damage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23), and you can quickly take down enemies.

Combat Panache feat: Offers several maneuvers. The main benefit is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty to hit against one enemy until the end of the encounter. In addition, after an enemy hits you, you can make a Bluff check to play dead. So you can effectively debuff one enemy, and if you’re close to death and afraid of multiple attacks before you can heal or run away, you can play dead and your enemies will (hopefully) ignore you until you can heal or choose to get up. The only downside is that the feat requires 8 ranks in Bluff, Intimidate, and Perform, so you might need to wait a few levels before you can take it. PHBII pg 93.

Goad feat: As a Move action you can make an enemy must make a Will Save. If they fail, they can only make melee attacks against you. Combine with Combat Panache to help lock down one enemy (usually a BBEG). Comp Adventurer pg 109.

Prehensile Tail feat: You can use your tail attack (I think Duskfolk get one?) as an arm. This qualifies you for Multiweapon Fighting. Serpent Kingdoms pg 147.

Leadership feat: Get a cohort. This is usually the easiest way to fix even the weakest of builds.

Spirit Sense feat: Let’s you see an interact with spirits of the recently dead. Leads to some fun roleplaying. “Sorry that we had to ambush you, but could you tell us your master’s weaknesses?” “Are you kidding me, you just killed me.” “I demand you tell me!" (My Intimidate check is 52.) “Fine, fine. He’s vulnerable to fire.” Heroes of Horror pg 124.

Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement: Enemy must Save or be Stunned for multiple rounds. Usable Cha bonus times per day. Very cheap. Magic Item Compendium.

Slippers of Battledancing: Bonus to your land speed and Tumble, and if you have 5 ranks in Perform (dance) you can use your Cha instead of Str or Dex as your bonus to attack with one handed or light weapons. DMGII pg 272.

wizuriel
2009-07-13, 10:54 AM
I would look into the dragon magic book. There some nice auras dragon shamans can use. Also I think you can give up 1 aura for a lesser innvocation (like dark vision).

iirc dragon shamans can also apply meta breath feats to their breath weapon. I would also try and get a dragon cincture from the MIC

Person_Man
2009-07-13, 11:41 AM
I would look into the dragon magic book. There some nice auras dragon shamans can use. Also I think you can give up 1 aura for a lesser innvocation (like dark vision).

Hmm, that means you could take the Darkness Invocation and use the Adept of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) trick to gain HiPS. It's a shame you're not a Black, Green, or White (grant Hide and Move Silently), or maybe even Copper (grants Hide) heritage. You could be a pretty good scout/ambusher.

RomanPike
2009-12-17, 02:11 AM
Hi. Wondering if someone could help me with my Dragon Shaman. He is a lvl. 10 Neanderthal Red Dragon Shaman. I can't find anywhere if there are any prestige classes for dragon shaman... he is lacking a little motivation at the moment so that might be something to work towards for him. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Cheers.

Thurbane
2009-12-17, 03:48 AM
I'm currently running a 12th level Human (Copper) Dragon Shaman...my build isn't totally optimal, but I've found it to be pretty effective so far. I would have taken Double Draconic Aura at 12th, but it wasn't in the list of allowed books.

http://uploading.com/files/f593b355/Dagornach_12.pdf/

Hi. Wondering if someone could help me with my Dragon Shaman. He is a lvl. 10 Neanderthal Red Dragon Shaman. I can't find anywhere if there are any prestige classes for dragon shaman... he is lacking a little motivation at the moment so that might be something to work towards for him. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Cheers.
PrCs for a Dragon Shaman is a tough call...none (that I know of) advance DS class features (except Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster). Mythic Exemplar might be OK, but doesn't do much to advance your class features.

Optimystik
2009-12-17, 08:00 AM
Honestly, frightful presence seems a little out of character on a small sized crocodile-man. How intimidating can you be at three-foot six? Certainly not enough to send an ogre running. The mental image I have here makes me think of a small, yappy dog.

You're a shaman - size doesn't matter. Think of the goblin shamans from Lorwyn or other M:TG expansions - small, but covered in fetishes and guttural howling.


I'm not sure why everyone's so ga-ga over entangling exhalation. Entangled just drops them to half speed and makes spellcasters have some minor trouble casting. For that, I drop half my damage, and the effect only lasts a turn or two. It would probably be more useful with a cone, but I don't think I'll get a lot of battlefield control out of a thirty-foot line. Especially if I have to spend two feats to get it.

As a tank, slowing enemies down keeps them near you and away from the squishies. You'll be thanked for it. :smallsmile:


I seem to have the same problem every time I make a thread like this. I'm not really looking for 'this is how you break the game' advice. I'm more concerned about having an interesting, semi-plausible character than having the most powerful character possible. I mean, yeah, the guy with the longspear, animated shield and frightful presence works on paper, but he looks pretty silly on the battlefield.

This is verging on Stormwind territory; the reason why optimizers give you the best crunch first is because fluff is easily justified by the creative mind.

You're a shaman. Scary shamans are a fantasy staple. The fact that you are small actually boosts your flavor in my opinion - it proves that your intimidating nature is truly supernatural, not due merely to your stature and lungs like any boring barbarian. A spear is also very acceptable weapon for a small, tribal creature. And an animated shield could house a trapped spirit from your tribe. It all meshes from where I'm sitting.