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wizuriel
2009-07-14, 12:16 AM
So was looking over the tome of battle and debating if should let them be used in new campaign. I like the idea of the book and I think it will help spice up melee a bit. The maneuvers in the book seem strong but not game breaking (except a few white raven stuff which will probably be banned), what scares me is they can keep using them all day long without resting. Even if they run out of manuvers in an encounter it seems too easy for crusaders and warblades to get them back (especially warblades). Swordsage do seem fine to me (at least from first glance).

so if I let them any suggestions to fighting these guys? One scenario I really fear them would be in a war scenario where mobs of enemies just keep attacking.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-14, 12:29 AM
Keep in mind, a Warblade has no more endurance than a Fighter. Spellcasters have spell slots, melee has HP. ToB remains relevant for appx as long as any other characters without per-day abilities. The exception is the Crusader, which can heal, but only a small amount compared to the damage likely to be dished out.

ToB is Tier 2. It's balanced against Beguilers, Dread Necros, well-built Sorcerers, and Psionics. If your game is blaster casters and Monks, don't include it. If your game is Druids, Batman Wizards, and Chain-trippers, it will meke melee relevent again.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-14, 12:34 AM
Which White Raven Maneuvers do you think are gamebreaking, wizuriel? I'm curious due to not seeing any which looked overpowered at all.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-14, 12:43 AM
Which White Raven Maneuvers do you think are gamebreaking, wizuriel? I'm curious due to not seeing any which looked overpowered at all.White Raven Tactics is the only OP one. There's some good ones, but White Raven is like Bards. It's power scales with the melee power of the party. If the OP has a Malconvoker, a Druid, and a pouncing TWF Rogue, White Raven will be a lot better than if it was partnered with an Archer rogue, buffer Cleric, and Batman Wizard.

Also, remember that maneuvers are like spells, in that you get access to 3rd level ones at ML 5! Many people miss this, and hate ToB for it.

Saph
2009-07-14, 12:44 AM
White Raven Tactics is overpowered as long as you let PCs use it on themselves. If you rule it as only being able to be used on teammates it's still very powerful, but reasonable. (I'm pretty sure this was how it was intended, anyway - White Raven is supposed to be about teamwork.)

White Raven Hammer and War Master's Charge are a tad overpowered at the high levels due to the auto-stun - it's a bit too easy to stunlock opponents with them. However, at the levels you get them the spellcasters are tossing around 8th- and 9th-level spells, so while they're overpowered, they've got plenty of company.

As for the OP: Yes, ToB characters are very strong in endurance scenarios. If you typically fight entire wars where the PCs have to do hundreds of rounds of combat in a day, the ToB characters will be gods. However, if you only have a single short encounter between sunup and sundown, the spellcasters will be way more effective. So it's up to you, really.

- Saph

mabriss lethe
2009-07-14, 12:48 AM
Also, when making the judgement on how broken some of the maneuvers can be, compare them to the types of effects you can get out of equivalent level spells. What's extra damage (no matter how much) compared to save or die spells

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-14, 01:01 AM
Just to add...

What's the point in requesting White Raven Tactics to work on the initiator, if you can get something roughly similar out of Moment of Alacrity? I mean roughly similar, since it essentially raises your initiative count, so you can mostly play with your initiative until you're happy.

Going twice can be overrated.

Let White Raven Tactics work mostly for others. It's still broken when you can essentially gain the first turn in every round with Moment of Alacrity, then reduce your turn to the character you want (say, Clericzilla, Druidzilla, Batman Wizard) and let them get one extra turn, right after you most graciously go and soften them up. Or, just use it for mopping up another guy when you splatter the guts of the enemy.

Or, just in case, do it as provocation. Give the Wizard one extra turn AFTER all enemies are killed, and tell it to go again. Then, tell it that you can do it with anyone, everyone, faster than it gets Greater Celerity.

White Raven is best for buffing allies, for providing chances to move and strike (with the movement useful for just about anyone except the Chargers who might probably skip your move or just move a bit to set up better)

As for Stun, I wouldn't deny the big benefit of getting a creature stunned, at least for one round, no save, no SR, nothing but immunity to save it. At the very least, it's one more round where you can safely do things, and let others do safe things. Its utility is superb, as it makes even the hated Sudden Strike useful. It's not Hold Person/Monster, but it procs a bit more than the latter. It also causes weapon dropping (better than disarming), a loss of AC (at least 10% chance of hitting, from your lowly melee attack to the crucial ranged touch attack while the opponent is under melee and within soft cover) And considering you can do it most of the time, it eventually aids to extending the battle capabilities of the Warblade or Crusader, something the full casters eventually begin losing, and thus forced to use spells of lesser levels with increasing chances of failure (in the case of DC) or lessened punch (in the case of damage or effect)

But then again, who has heard of a Wizard who keeps fighting after going nova?

Also, I wouldn't deny the utility of something like Leading the Charge. It's one of the few stances which grows in benefit with each level you get, which while not overpowered, it essentially boosts the damage output with things such as Pouncing Charge and War Leader/Master's Charge.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-14, 01:02 AM
I've heard of White Raven Tactics being used to create infinite amounts of actions betweern 2 people. (It didn't look too bad to me ignoring the potential for infinite turns.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-14, 01:06 AM
I've heard of White Raven Tactics being used to create infinite amounts of actions betweern 2 people. (It didn't look too bad to me ignoring the potential for infinite turns.)No, it can't. You can't use maneuvers the same round you refresh as a Warblade, and Crusaders generally take 2 turns to get it back. A Swordsage could technically, but he's spending a Swift and a full-round action, so the infinite loop doesn't actually do anything.

Saph
2009-07-14, 01:07 AM
Let White Raven Tactics work mostly for others. It's still broken when you can essentially gain the first turn in every round with Moment of Alacrity, then reduce your turn to the character you want (say, Clericzilla, Druidzilla, Batman Wizard) and let them get one extra turn, right after you most graciously go and soften them up. Or, just use it for mopping up another guy when you splatter the guts of the enemy.

Remember that WRT has a range of 10 feet. That means that it's easiest to use on other meleers fighting on the front lines alongside you. Getting it to work on the wizard hanging in the back row is a bit more inconvenient.


As for Stun, I wouldn't deny the big benefit of getting a creature stunned, at least for one round, no save, no SR, nothing but immunity to save it. At the very least, it's one more round where you can safely do things, and let others do safe things. Its utility is superb, as it makes even the hated Sudden Strike useful. It's not Hold Person/Monster, but it procs a bit more than the latter. It also causes weapon dropping (better than disarming), a loss of AC (at least 10% chance of hitting, from your lowly melee attack to the crucial ranged touch attack while the opponent is under melee and within soft cover) And considering you can do it most of the time, it eventually aids to extending the battle capabilities of the Warblade or Crusader, something the full casters eventually begin losing, and thus forced to use spells of lesser levels with increasing chances of failure (in the case of DC) or lessened punch (in the case of damage or effect)

The thing is, in high-level combat, stunning someone for 1 round is pretty close to a death sentence. So anything that stuns with no way of avoiding it is potentially broken. A single opponent who gets stunned is highly, highly unlikely to be alive one round later.

- Saph

Kyeudo
2009-07-14, 01:17 AM
No, it can't. You can't use maneuvers the same round you refresh as a Warblade, and Crusaders generally take 2 turns to get it back. A Swordsage could technically, but he's spending a Swift and a full-round action, so the infinite loop doesn't actually do anything.

Actually, I believe the major abuse of White Raven Tactics involves a Ruby Knight Vindicator, which can expend turn attempts to recover manuvers. As long as you have enough Nightsticks, a RKV can take as many actions as he wants.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-14, 01:23 AM
The wording of the RKV ability means it only works 1/round. And it's not infinite, it's limited by your TU uses, which could be going to other things.

elliott20
2009-07-14, 01:31 AM
I suppose you could always do an optional "stamina" rule for longer battles, where maybe the first number of refreshes can be done normally, but once you start to get beyond say, the number of refreshes beyond your CON modifier, you need to roll a fort save to do it normally. Otherwise, the refresh will take a full round instead. That way, they can still refresh, but after a while, they need to take more time to do so.

AslanCross
2009-07-14, 02:32 AM
I suppose you could always do an optional "stamina" rule for longer battles, where maybe the first number of refreshes can be done normally, but once you start to get beyond say, the number of refreshes beyond your CON modifier, you need to roll a fort save to do it normally. Otherwise, the refresh will take a full round instead. That way, they can still refresh, but after a while, they need to take more time to do so.

This sounds reasonable, though I find that it's the "auto-refresh" that Martial Adepts get between encounters that makes them really good for marathon fighting.

kamikasei
2009-07-14, 02:40 AM
One scenario I really fear them would be in a war scenario where mobs of enemies just keep attacking.

I always find this reaction to ToB, warlocks and suchlike to be puzzling. Do people run such scenarios with any great frequency? Wouldn't HP be as much or more of a limiting factor as special abilities? I get concerns like "warlock can achieve spell effect X every round for an entire day, with broken result X", but not the fear that not having to ration out your abilities like spells will let you dominate combat.

Myrmex
2009-07-14, 02:50 AM
Keep in mind, a Warblade has no more endurance than a Fighter. Spellcasters have spell slots, melee has HP. ToB remains relevant for appx as long as any other characters without per-day abilities. The exception is the Crusader, which can heal, but only a small amount compared to the damage likely to be dished out.

With a wand of CLW or Lesser Vigor for only 750 gp, a party can go on HP for a very long time. It's only if you have battles that require the casters to bring out the big guns that you need resting.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-14, 08:18 AM
This sounds reasonable, though I find that it's the "auto-refresh" that Martial Adepts get between encounters that makes them really good for marathon fighting.

You don't even need that, really; a warblade or Adaptive Style swordsage needs only one round to refresh and a crusader doesn't need anything to refresh, so if you give them even 1 round they're good to go. The chances of an encounter ending and another beginning within a single round are negligible at best.

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 08:41 AM
The wording of the RKV ability means it only works 1/round. And it's not infinite, it's limited by your TU uses, which could be going to other things.

Here's how it goes: You have two Ruby Knight Vindicators. One uses WRT on other and e.g. recovers it. Then the other uses WRT on the other and recovers. Then on the new turn, repeat. Each of these leaves the character with a Full-Round worth of actions. So yeah, it's only limited by the constantly lowering Initiative count (which you can solve with e.g. Moment of Alacrity) and Turn Undead-uses.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 08:43 AM
So was looking over the tome of battle and debating if should let them be used in new campaign. I like the idea of the book and I think it will help spice up melee a bit. The maneuvers in the book seem strong but not game breaking (except a few white raven stuff which will probably be banned), what scares me is they can keep using them all day long without resting.

And Lion Totem Barbarians can Pounce, Trip, and Power Attack all day without resting.

Scared yet?

Blackfang108
2009-07-14, 08:51 AM
And Lion Totem Barbarians can Pounce, Trip, and Power Attack all day without resting.

Scared yet?

No ...

>.>
<.<

I want my MOMMY!!!!

:smallbiggrin:

And you hit the nail on the head. These are MELEE classes. Not Spellcasters (Unless you allow Mystic Swordsage, and those are just silly.)

woodenbandman
2009-07-14, 10:33 AM
Keep in mind, a Warblade has no more endurance than a Fighter. Spellcasters have spell slots, melee has HP. ToB remains relevant for appx as long as any other characters without per-day abilities. The exception is the Crusader, which can heal, but only a small amount compared to the damage likely to be dished out.

ToB is Tier 2. It's balanced against Beguilers, Dread Necros, well-built Sorcerers, and Psionics. If your game is blaster casters and Monks, don't include it. If your game is Druids, Batman Wizards, and Chain-trippers, it will meke melee relevent again.


I disagree with your assessment. A beguiler will shred any warblade, as will a sorceror, psion, dread necro with shivering touch (bye-bye crusader!), and even a psychic warrior can shred tome of battle (reach weapon + Expansion + strength of my enemy + Hustle, or composite longbow + Strength of my enemy, or any number of other things).

Tome of battle fits at tier 3 because A: They don't have any powers which will destroy the structure of your campaign (unless you count stone dragon destroying the literal structure of cities in your campaign), and B: They don't have the abilities that tier 2s have, mainly buffs, debuffs, out of combat utility (a bit better for them than many others since they get more skill points), crowd control, or even the ability to compete with said tier 2s in a straight damage contest, since casters get polymorph and crap like that.

Indon
2009-07-14, 10:41 AM
So was looking over the tome of battle and debating if should let them be used in new campaign. I like the idea of the book and I think it will help spice up melee a bit. The maneuvers in the book seem strong but not game breaking (except a few white raven stuff which will probably be banned), what scares me is they can keep using them all day long without resting. Even if they run out of manuvers in an encounter it seems too easy for crusaders and warblades to get them back (especially warblades). Swordsage do seem fine to me (at least from first glance).

so if I let them any suggestions to fighting these guys? One scenario I really fear them would be in a war scenario where mobs of enemies just keep attacking.

Hmm... well.

One possible idea could be applying this system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) to maneuvers. Rename it to stamina, and have one maneuver-recovering action equivalent to taking a brief rest, allowing the maneuver user to regain 1/2 their ML in stamina (ML 1, 1 stamina, ML 5, 3 stamina, ML 10, 5 stamina, etc).

The tricky parts would be dictating each classes' base stamina pool - and, also, working the Crusader into the system.

But once you pull it off, you've slowed the maneuver refresh rate without nullifying it, and in exchange you've given the classes a bit more diversity to their maneuver options.

Oslecamo
2009-07-14, 10:47 AM
ToB is Tier 2. It's balanced against Beguilers, Dread Necros, well-built Sorcerers, and Psionics. If your game is blaster casters and Monks, don't include it. If your game is Druids, Batman Wizards, and Chain-trippers, it will meke melee relevent again.

Boy if that "tier" system had been done with random imaginary numbers, it would still be more acurate than the one you're using now.

Can a warblade create new planes of existence? Or become a dragon? Move several miles at once?

Psion alone can force the best batman wizard to bring down the big guns to take it down. Warblades, on the other hand, can at best die horribly.

A badly built sorceror will still be enough to mop up the warblade(just fly several miles ahead and drop stuff untill it dies).

Claiming that both are at the same level of power or versatility just shows how useless this whole "tier" system is.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-14, 11:07 AM
Boy if that "tier" system had been done with random imaginary numbers, it would still be more acurate than the one you're using now.

Can a warblade create new planes of existence? Or become a dragon? Move several miles at once?

Psion alone can force the best batman wizard to bring down the big guns to take it down. Warblades, on the other hand, can at best die horribly.

A badly built sorceror will still be enough to mop up the warblade(just fly several miles ahead and drop stuff untill it dies).

Claiming that both are at the same level of power or versatility just shows how useless this whole "tier" system is.

Mainly because he's got it wrong. The Warblade and the like are Tier 3 classes...here's the whole thing. It's actually quite well thought out.


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately).

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 11:42 AM
A Warblade/Hexblade (or Pious Templar)/Eternal Blade has effective immunity to anything that grants a save (+ring of evasion).

He can also take five full turns in a row.

Enemy goes on init count X
Warblade goes on init count Y (Y<X but > X-20)

Take your normal turn, use white raven tactics on self. Use Time Stands Still.
Take your turn at init -1. Initiate Moment of Alacrity. Use Adaptive Style to refresh time stands still and white raven tactics.
Use Island in Time for another turn. Full Attack, maybe avalanche of blades depending on AC/if you have persistent wraithstrike.
Init count Y+20 comes, take another turn. Initiate White Raven Tactics on Self. Use White Raven Hammer for auto stun.
Take turn at init count Y+19. Initiate Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose.

Enemy loses their turn due to stun, you probably get to go again. Initiate swooping dragon strike to stun them again.

You get to go again. Full Attack.

Frosty
2009-07-14, 11:47 AM
That's why we don't allow WRT on self.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-14, 11:49 AM
Here's how it goes: You have two Ruby Knight Vindicators. One uses WRT on other and e.g. recovers it. Then the other uses WRT on the other and recovers. Then on the new turn, repeat. Each of these leaves the character with a Full-Round worth of actions. So yeah, it's only limited by the constantly lowering Initiative count (which you can solve with e.g. Moment of Alacrity) and Turn Undead-uses.1/round, not 1/turn. Until init rolls over, it's still the same round, and you can't benefit from RKV's swift action again.

And yes, I misremembered which classes were which tiers. :smallredface:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-14, 11:51 AM
And yes, I misremembered which classes were which tiers. :smallredface:

We won't hold it against you.

...much. :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2009-07-14, 12:14 PM
I disagree with your assessment. A beguiler will shred any warblade, as will a sorceror, psion, dread necro with shivering touch (bye-bye crusader!)


Dread Necro loses his Con score goes down (there are maneuvers for that).

How is Dread Necro using a Frostburn spell? I thought they had a set list. Same for Beguiler.

Extra Spell shouldn't work.

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 12:18 PM
Not to mention that shivering touch can be blocked by wall of blades. And also, if we arent allowing WRT on self, we certainly shouldnt be allowing shivering touch.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-14, 12:23 PM
How is Dread Necro using a Frostburn spell? I thought they had a set list. Same for Beguiler.

Extra Spell shouldn't work.

Expanded Knowledge. If shivering touch is a Necromancy spell (which I can't check since I'm at work) the Dread Necro can pick it up.

Myrmex
2009-07-14, 12:34 PM
Yup, it's necromancy.