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View Full Version : Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

2009-07-14, 12:28 AM
PH p.77
A Jump check is included in your movement, so it
is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your
next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn)
must be a move action to complete the jump.

Suppose you are a damn good jumper, and you are attempting a vertical jump that exceeds your movement for this round. So, you are left in mid-air position until the next round (then you complete your jump).
If your jump check is really good* and you are more than 5ft up in the air, you are practically out of reach… right? So, no-one can harm you with a melee attack until your next turn! :smallwink: (except with reach weapons or ranged attacks)

Am I right? :smallconfused:

*For a standing high jump of 6ft you must beat a 48 DC jump check.

Harperfan7
2009-07-14, 12:30 AM
No, they can reach any square adjacent to them, including the ones above, and they can always jump to reach you. You would need to be pretty high up, like at least 15ft.

But ultimately yes, it is possible to jump yourself out of your enemies reach until your next round.

Yora
2009-07-14, 12:31 AM
I would make it 10 ft. high and only against medium characters, but yes.

Anxe
2009-07-14, 12:32 AM
In the jump section of the PHB it says that vertical reach of a medium creature is 8' high. The DC to jump more than 8' presumably higher than 64. That's basically an epic use of the Jump skill. And the opponent trying to hit them can just do a little hop to get themselves up there to hit the jumper. I'm not too worried about that happening...

2009-07-14, 12:44 AM
Good point there Anxe (reach 8ft).
Tell me something, the PH states that jump is included in your movement. With that in mind, you can't interrupt your movement to hit someone (exc. spring attack).
So, a "hop-up and hit" is out of the question, right? Can't jump (move), hit while in mid-air (interrupt movement and attack) and return to the ground. While is logically possible, I believe a feat or something is required to do this.

RTGoodman
2009-07-14, 12:51 AM
Eh, jumping is a super-easy skill to buff. Start with max ranks and a high strength (starting 18, but 20 is possibly), and a level in Barbarian for Fast Movement. After that, grab 18 levels of Monk or something that advances Monk speed increase (100 ft. speed equals +28 to Jump checks). Bump Str up at each opportunity, get a tome/manual/wish and +6 item, and you've got Str 34. With just that, you've got a modifier of +63.

Add +2 synergy (Tumble, a Monk skill), +2 from Acrobatic, +3 Skill Focus, +4 from Run, and that's +74. And a +5 ring of jumping. Oh, and with Leap of the Heavens, that's from standing (i.e., no need to run 20 feet first.) A level of Exemplar will get you the ability to Take 10 on Jump checks. That's an automatic 89, which is a 22-foot jump straight up from standing. If you've got an ally or take Leadership, you can get a Sorcerer/Marshal that adds his Cha to your Jump checks AND can cast jump on you for another +10 bonus.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Riffington
2009-07-14, 12:53 AM
Good point there Anxe (reach 8ft).
Tell me something, the PH states that jump is included in your movement. With that in mind, you can't interrupt your movement to hit someone (exc. spring attack).
So, a "hop-up and hit" is out of the question, right? Can't jump (move), hit while in mid-air (interrupt movement and attack) and return to the ground. While is logically possible, I believe a feat or something is required to do this.

Well, if you can jump at least 10 feet, then you can charge upwards. I think.

Fishy
2009-07-14, 01:11 AM
You're looking for Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls): Find a convenient vertical surface and Tumble up it, reducing your speed to half. Make a 'Horizontal' jump, which sends you perpendicular to the wall, and then you can spend the rest of the round hovering. Piece of cake.

2009-07-14, 01:12 AM
Well, if you can jump at least 10 feet, then you can charge upwards. I think.

PH p.154
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.

Jump is included in your movement. So a "part of move action" can't be used with a "full round action". :smallsmile:

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-14, 01:29 AM
Eh, jumping is a super-easy skill to buff. Start with max ranks and a high strength (starting 18, but 20 is possibly), and a level in Barbarian for Fast Movement.

Or, get Boots of Agile Leaping. Or even better, enchant your Boots of Speed with the benefits of the Boots of Agile Leaping. That way, you can use Dexterity instead. Then again, Strength is still good.

After that, grab 18 levels of Monk or something that advances Monk speed increase (100 ft. speed equals +28 to Jump checks).

Um, just that? I'd say add some Xeph goodness for the bursts of speed. 3 rounds with a competence bonus of 30 ft. to speed, which means an extra +12 to the Jump check?

And a +5 ring of jumping.

Why a +5? Get the +10 one. Or Belkar's +20 Ring. See it soar.

Also, if you can somehow get ahold of the Hustle power, get it. Basically, replace your swift action with a move action. Useful for the next two rounds of speed.

Or, in any case, do the Chuck E. Cheeze build (however updated or fixed it may be), and max that Jump check. Touch the sky. Fall and get (max height/10, rounded down) d6 damage unless you have another Ring (this time, of Feather Fall)

Gaiyamato
2009-07-14, 01:35 AM
I once saw a feat somewhere that added DEX to Jump instead of STR.
But yeah Jump is perhaps the easiest skill to buff.

You could in theory hover in mid air for a single round.
If you had the ability to jump from standing (from the feat) then you can do it each round if I'm not mistaken (which I could be), as the land is automatic and then you may jump again as the move action.

Q: Could you throw a knife as a standard action.. or cast a spell as a standard action (with a concentration check) while hovering in the air??

Twilight Jack
2009-07-14, 01:36 AM
PH p.77

Suppose you are a damn good jumper, and you are attempting a vertical jump that exceeds your movement for this round. So, you are left in mid-air position until the next round (then you complete your jump).
If your jump check is really good* and you are more than 5ft up in the air, you are practically out of reach… right? So, no-one can harm you with a melee attack until your next turn! :smallwink: (except with reach weapons or ranged attacks)

Am I right? :smallconfused:

*For a standing high jump of 6ft you must beat a 48 DC jump check.

And this is one of those places where a reasonable DM looks you in the eye and tells you to keep dreaming. Juke your Jump check high enough to make me believe in 6 seconds of hang time and we'll talk. Otherwise, we're going to mutually recognize that many rules in D&D are abstractions that are not necessarily conducive to verisimilitude in an ongoing collaborative storytelling experience.

If your game is one where the RAW are inviolate and replace basic layman's physics rather than attempting to simulate them, then knock yourself out with the power to mystically hover because you "ran out of movement" for the particular 6 second window of time in which you find yourself. Otherwise, leave first-aid-by-drowning and commoner-rail-guns in the realm on the theoretically absurd, where they belong.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-14, 01:50 AM
I once saw a feat somewhere that added DEX to Jump instead of STR.
But yeah Jump is perhaps the easiest skill to buff.

You could in theory hover in mid air for a single round.
If you had the ability to jump from standing (from the feat) then you can do it each round if I'm not mistaken (which I could be), as the land is automatic and then you may jump again as the move action.

Q: Could you throw a knife as a standard action.. or cast a spell as a standard action (with a concentration check) while hovering in the air??

A: No. If we're going to accept that you've "run out of movement," and are now hovering, it has to be because you've really run out of movement. If you've still got a standard action left to throw a knife, then you haven't really "run out," have you? You've still got a standard action left, which it would seem that you are now obliged to use to complete your movement into a space in which you can reasonably stop.

By way of illustration, a character with a 30' speed manages to leap 30' vertically into the air (don't ask how :smallwink:). He's now got 30' of vertical movement needed to get him back down to the ground. Since he has not ended his movement in a legal space, he is obliged to use any remaining actions to make up the difference. It just so happens that his remaining standard action will net him 30' of movement in the form of a double-move. He is obliged to use it, in my opinion, since he cannot choose to float in mid-air without any means of support.

Let me ask a different question, though.

If a character uses the entirety of his movement to run off the edge of a cliff, does he hang in mid-air until his next round because he doesn't have enough "movement" to fall the 200' to his death on the rocks below?

2009-07-14, 01:50 AM
And this is one of those places where a reasonable DM looks you in the eye and tells you to keep dreaming.

That's exactly what I’ve said to my son!!! – But, then I pictured…those manga style – kungfu scenes with the hero making extreme leaps …and thought…”well… DnD is a fantasy game… it’ll be fun and cinematic…” so I decided to ask what you guys think of it.

I don’t like my players do this trick every round, and I have ways to discourage them using it… :smallbiggrin:

(sorry, my english are not good, i'm a self-learner)

Twilight Jack
2009-07-14, 01:54 AM
That's exactly what I’ve said to my son!!! – But, then I pictured…those manga style – kungfu scenes with the hero making extreme leaps …and thought…”well… DnD is a fantasy game… it’ll be fun and cinematic…” so I decided to ask what you guys think of it.

I don’t like my players do this trick every round, and I have ways to discourage them using it… :smallbiggrin:

(sorry, my english are not good, i'm a self-learner)

Well, if you're playing a Wuxia (Chinese epic mythical cinema) inspired game, then all the above considerations go right out the window. Six second hangtimes are par for the course if that's the overall flavor of the campaign world.

I'm basing my thoughts on the generic assumptions of the western swords & sorcery genre.

cheezewizz2000
2009-07-14, 01:58 AM
I say allow this abuse of the jump rules, regardless of how physically possible they are. Then if anyone pulls it on you just say the words "I'm delaying my action. When he lands, I'll make a full attack against him".

Watch as your player/DM's dreams of an un-hittable character come crashing down around him, along with his springy freak.

Zen Master
2009-07-14, 02:04 AM
That's a wonderfully inventive way of getting yourself impaled by your enemies.

5' adjustment. Set spear against the ground. Take careful aim for groin region. Ready action to impale. Wait for automatic win.

Hell - as DM, I'd consider that a coup-de-grace.

2009-07-14, 02:06 AM
I say allow this abuse of the jump rules, regardless of how physically possible they are. Then if anyone pulls it on you just say the words "I'm delaying my action. When he lands, I'll make a full attack against him".

Watch as your player/DM's dreams of an un-hittable character come crashing down around him, along with his springy freak.

Hohoho!!! Extra :belkar:ish !!! Respect cheezewizz!

OMG! Acromos Super-Extra :belkar:ish !!! - But I can't do this... my son is only 12... and that is mature content... :smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-07-14, 02:07 AM
Footsteps of the Divine, from Complete Champion, gives you a small boost to speed for rounds/caster level. If you discharge the spell prematurely, you get a boost to speed for one round equal to the number of rounds left of duration times 10. So if you had 3 rounds left, you get a 30 foot burst of speed for a round.

If you happened to persist the spell....

If a character uses the entirety of his movement to run off the edge of a cliff, does he hang in mid-air until his next round because he doesn't have enough "movement" to fall the 200' to his death on the rocks below?

No. I think there is a max distance you fall each round.

I say allow this abuse of the jump rules, regardless of how physically possible they are. Then if anyone pulls it on you just say the words "I'm delaying my action. When he lands, I'll make a full attack against him".

Watch as your player/DM's dreams of an un-hittable character come crashing down around him, along with his springy freak.

You can't delay a full round action.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-14, 02:25 AM
No. I think there is a max distance you fall each round.

Exactly. So if you end your "movement" from a vertical jump with only the falling part left to put you back on solid ground?

Twilight Jack
2009-07-14, 02:27 AM
You can't delay a full round action.

I don't think that's right. You can't ready a full-round action, but you can certainly delay your place in the initiative order. The difference being, of course, that delaying means you have to let the jumping character get his attack in before you retaliate, since a delayed set of actions cannot be used to interrupt.

Myrmex
2009-07-14, 02:31 AM
I don't think that's right. You can't ready a full-round action, but you can certainly delay your place in the initiative order. The difference being, of course, that delaying means you have to let the jumping character get his attack in before you retaliate, since a delayed set of actions cannot be used to interrupt.

Ah.
You are absolutely correct.

Exactly. So if you end your "movement" from a vertical jump with only the falling part left to put you back on solid ground?

I imagine you might get hurt.

2009-07-14, 02:35 AM
Exactly. So if you end your "movement" from a vertical jump with only the falling part left to put you back on solid ground?

I don't think falling counts as "movement distance"...

If you end your jump distance with only the falling part remaining, then you simply fall and return to the ground.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-14, 02:37 AM
I imagine you might get hurt.

Not so terribly much, since falling damage is lessened if you've purposefully jumped (to be a rules-lawyer, it specifically states that falling damage is lessened when you're purposefully jumping down, but I'd rule that any character able to make a vertical leap high enough to risk falling damage upon landing is probably going to qualify for the reduction, since he's got the training to get that much air in the first place).

Twilight Jack
2009-07-14, 02:45 AM
I don't think falling counts as "movement distance"...

If you end your jump distance with only the falling part remaining, then you simply fall and return to the ground.

A ruling from which - if combined with my earlier assertion that you cannot choose to use any remaining actions for anything other than completing movement if your move action leaves you in a place you cannot reasonably spend the round - it follows that you'd need to be able to vertically leap to a height in excess of your doubled movement (minus any running start) in order for the one-round hangtime problem to ever present itself.

In other words, you'd have to run out of movement while still ascending if you wanted to remain airborne until next round. Once you reach the apex of your jump, falling rules take over and you're no longer using your own "movement" to get back to earth.

2009-07-14, 02:52 AM
A ruling from which - if combined with my earlier assertion that you cannot choose to use any remaining actions for anything other than completing movement if your move action leaves you in a place you cannot reasonably spend the round - it follows that you'd need to be able to vertically leap to a height in excess of your doubled movement (minus any running start) in order for the one-round hangtime problem to ever present itself.

In other words, you'd have to run out of movement while still ascending if you wanted to remain airborne until next round. Once you reach the apex of your jump, falling rules take over and you're no longer using your own "movement" to get back to earth.

Correct. So, what about: Standard action (attack) then move action (move some ft (tumble if you must) and then vertical jump)? There's no available "double move" option to end your jump so you wait until next turn (if jump isn't complete).

Talic
2009-07-14, 02:57 AM
Jumping is a part of movement. That means jumping that high would provoke an AoO.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-14, 03:14 AM
Jumping is a part of movement. That means jumping that high would provoke an AoO.

Yes. This. Unless, of course, you could make a DC 25 Tumble check as part of your leap (which most any character who was planning to pull this kind of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon stuff would be able to do). Then you could make that leap without worrying about much of anything (see my other thread on the Trouble with T[r]umble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118137)).

Sliver
2009-07-14, 04:11 AM
Huh.. Why people say that you hover 6 seconds above ground if you jump and don't have more movement, waiting for your next turn?

To me it sounds like when you think of battle, everyone is standing still while one person does his move.. Really??
Everything still goes on while you have your turn, the rules just try to make it simple to play out. So jumping a really big distance then you can move in your turn just means that your jump is so long that others get to act while you are mid-air..

No hovering around here! except if you can hover, sure..

jcsw
2009-07-14, 04:48 AM
he is obliged to use any remaining actions to make up the difference

To be exact, you are not *obliged* to do it, you are required to.

If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-14, 05:50 AM
If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

Precisely.
While it is a nonsensical abuse of RAW it does actually work under RAW.
If you use all of your move in one turn going up, you must use all of your move the following turn coming down. In the meantime because your out of move you kind of "hang" in mid air.

Now that I look at though you cannot poassibly do this every turn unless you can gain more than one move action.

Also he could easily attack and then tumble+jump upwards or jump upwards and make a standard attack under RAW.

I think when they designed D&D 3.5 they actually were thinking about crouching tiger, hidden dragon, Honk Kong action Kung fu type fightnig a lot.
Look at a lot of the feats and even the Monk class.

A Monk/Rogue would totally kick ass using this tactic.

BUT under Raw the full armored paladin could in theory do it, they he would suck at it so hard it is not funny and thus likely fail the roll. But at high levels he could potentiall pull this off with enough buffing which would look rediculous. lol.

Using common sense this does fail. But I'd love to see a Monk/Rogue (maybe even some swordsage?) build built around this idea. Combine it with the trip+disarm+knock down kind of thing maybe. Arm him with a suitable Chinese Kung Fu stlyed styled sword and it would look awesome. :D

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-14, 08:14 AM
Jump is included in your movement. So a "part of move action" can't be used with a "full round action". :smallsmile:

Charging is a full-round action that includes movement. You definitely can jump during a charge action. That's what uber-chargers and the Leap Attack feat are all about! :smallwink:

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-14, 08:33 AM
This may be a little off topic, if it is just ignore

But is there a way to make a large jump where you are "hung in mid air for a round" and still make a ranged attack(bow, throwing what ever).

The only way i could think of it is via bloodstormblade or what not from TOB in combination with pounce.

figured i'd as you guys

2009-07-14, 11:11 PM
Charging is a full-round action that includes movement. You definitely can jump during a charge action. That's what uber-chargers and the Leap Attack feat are all about! :smallwink:

sure you can jump, but can you charge upwards??? I mean... :smallconfused:

Well, if you can jump at least 10 feet, then you can charge upwards. I think.

PH p.154
Jump is included in your movement. So a "part of move action" can't be used with a "full round action". :smallsmile:

I don't think so...

woodenbandman
2009-07-14, 11:32 PM
What about Jump + Skate + Air Walk = Dash Jump?

Zeful
2009-07-15, 12:35 AM
Yes. This. Unless, of course, you could make a DC 25 Tumble check as part of your leap (which most any character who was planning to pull this kind of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon stuff would be able to do). Then you could make that leap without worrying about much of anything (see my other thread on the Trouble with T[r]umble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118137)).

Actually you could probably make the DC 15 tumble check to force yourself to move at half speed then jump half-your-movement-speed plus one foot. Which would stop you 15" straight up (since you ran out of movement for that round) and perfectly safe.

If you have Spring attack and a spiked chain, you could tumble-jump, attack on your way up, end your turn in the air. Fall at the beginning of your turn, tumble to reduce falling damage/negate AoO, jump attack, lather rinse repeat.

Maybe Dervish levels would make this more interesting.