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Kaed
2009-07-14, 10:34 AM
The massive surge of arcane power that was the triple soul splice now being over and gone, I noticed something whilst rereading the comic, as I do occationally.

The whole 'four words' thing has been surrounded with speculation and controversy ever since the Oracle make the prophecy. For the sake of clarity, this was the exact wording of the question and answer:

:vaarsuvius:: How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?

Oracle: By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

The answer to this prediction seemed to come with the activation of the soul splice and V saying "I... I must succeed."

However... I think this is a false lead. First of all, not only were there three 'beings' present at this incident, but V was talking more to himself than anyone else, trying to convice himself that taking the fiends deal was the right choice.

About a half hour later, however, we find V racing off to fight Xykon one on one. There is a very short fight in which my theory on the magic four words takes place. Near the end of the battle, when pressed for a reason for launching this attack in the first place, a frustrated V insists that "My power... EXCEEDS yours!"

This leads almost immediately to his defeat, but also a soliloquy from Xykon on the true nature of power. Perhaps the most important thing he says is this:

:xykon:: Power, it isn't something you can put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just ARE. If you can lose it by blowing two Will saves, you never really had any power in the first place, see what I'm saying? Hell, the idiot paladin understands better than you do, 'cause he got every one of those hitpoints I burned off him the hard way: he earned them.

V has not yet aquired 'real ultimate power' yet, but if he listened to the lich, he will now understand how to get it. To get real power, you must earn it, like everyone else.

Optimystik
2009-07-14, 10:37 AM
No, he hasn't gotten "ultimate power" yet. He did get "Ultimate Arcane Power," however, and the whole point of Xykon's speech was to show him that other kinds of power matter. Rely only on one, and you lose.

factotum
2009-07-14, 10:43 AM
However... I think this is a false lead. First of all, not only were there three 'beings' present at this incident, but V was talking more to himself than anyone else, trying to convice himself that taking the fiends deal was the right choice.


Which is the whole point--it turned out that the right being for V to say the 4 words to was HIMSELF.

In any case, any argument which is predicated on the assumption that what V got from the splice wasn't ultimate arcane power means that he'll get even MORE power at some point in the future, and that would kill the story stone dead; a V that powerful, and having learned his lessons from the splice, would be unstoppable.

Kaed
2009-07-14, 10:56 AM
In any case, any argument which is predicated on the assumption that what V got from the splice wasn't ultimate arcane power means that he'll get even MORE power at some point in the future, and that would kill the story stone dead; a V that powerful, and having learned his lessons from the splice, would be unstoppable.

The oracles predictions do not all by their nature take into account the story. Durkon learned he would return home posthumously, and it's unlikely that will be shown until the very end/epilogue of the story, if at all. V may one day be the most poweful wizard in the world - but that might not be part of the story of the gates. He is an elf, and has many, many years ahead of him.

We all know Durokon and pals retired from adventuring and their campaign at large to guard the gates. Their 'story' officially ended there, because there was nothing left exciting to do but rule their cities, guard their groves and castles. You could keep telling about what happens to them, but there is no longer any real conflict, unity, or overspanning quest to make a plot with.

Nevertheless, Optimystik does make a good point. Perhaps the only 'arcane ultimate power' V will ever get was this soul splice, and he will learn not to rely on magic so much.

Skorj
2009-07-14, 04:00 PM
V has not yet aquired 'real ultimate power' yet, but if he listened to the lich, he will now understand how to get it. To get real power, you must earn it, like everyone else.

/ooc Anyone camping the "four words" spawn? It just popped a new thread. :smalltongue:

Obviously V didn't get Real Ultimate Power (http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm), she'd have to take a level in Ninja for that. She is a mammal, and does flip out and kill people, so it shouldn't be much of a stretch. Also, a soul splice would be a disasterous move for one with Real Ultimate Power, due to the Law of Conservation of Ninja.

Ultimate Arcane Power: V got it.
It wasn't as useful as V had imagined.
Allies mattered more than power.
That was the point.

SadisticFishing
2009-07-14, 05:18 PM
He was both a wizard and sorcerer.

Hence, Ultimate Magus.

Ultimate Arcane Power.

Q.E.D.

[TS] Shadow
2009-07-14, 05:37 PM
First off, even if V wasn't talking to himself, the IFCC act basically as one unit, so I find that arguement inherrently flawed and relatively pointless.

Also, he lost a good chunk of his ultimate arcane power when Haerta left. Therefore, when he fought Xykon, he had "a lot of arcane power" as opposed to "ultimate arcane power," which indeed did aquire.

Lorinthius
2009-07-14, 06:10 PM
Durkon learned he would return home posthumously...
I'd just like to point out that Durkon asked how he would finally be returning home and the Oracle answered "posthumously".

That finally is an important word. It could mean that Durkon could return home many, many times in his life and then finally (as in for the last time) return home posthumously.

Just my thought, though.

King of Nowhere
2009-07-14, 06:18 PM
Actually, we have one of this threads every couple of weeks. It seems the new hit of this forum, along with the "mitd is a piece of the snarl" and "I find out V's gender!"

I simply don't find it plausible.

Olorin Maia
2009-07-14, 06:26 PM
Wait; the MitD is part of the Snarl? OF COURSE!!! Thread making time...

[TS] Shadow
2009-07-14, 08:02 PM
Wait; the MitD is part of the Snarl? OF COURSE!!! Thread making time...

No. No! NOOOO!

Don't. Please don't. I don't want to have to explain why this is such a stupid idea again...

Well, I guess I could ignore it, but then I'd be wussing out. *sigh* I hate my pride sometimes.

Bibliomancer
2009-07-14, 08:07 PM
Wait; the MitD is part of the Snarl? OF COURSE!!! Thread making time...

The MitD is not a monster invented by Rich Burlew, according to Rich Burlew (although I'm not sure where the quotation is).

Note that Ultimate Arcane Power does not mean "unlimited arcane power," it simply means the maximum amount of arcane power that could possibly be achieved in [insert time frame]. Thus, if V with three splices was the most powerful caster in the world and exceeded any future potential (in raw power only), then V got "ultimate" arcane power. She just used it poorly and lost a large chunk of it pre-Xykon.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-07-14, 09:12 PM
I've seen people try to argue that "I... I must succeed" wasn't the four words, but I don't think I've seen people argue that "My power... EXCEEDS yours!" were the four words, and I have to say that it seems fairly reasonable to me. Then again, its also getting late and I'm getting tired, so maybe my brain's messed up.

I still have to hate you for bringing back the debate though, nothing personal.

Nimrod's Son
2009-07-15, 03:12 AM
I've seen people try to argue that "I... I must succeed" wasn't the four words
Yeah, loads of them. Though the arguments are always flawed at best and downright laughable at worst.


But I don't think I've seen people argue that "My power... EXCEEDS yours!" were the four words
There have been quite a few of those, too.


and I have to say that it seems fairly reasonable to me.
Except for V having already gained ultimate arcane power by that point. Which is, y'know, the reason he boasted that his power was greater than Xykon's in the first place.

Haven
2009-07-15, 03:25 AM
I've seen people try to argue that "I... I must succeed" wasn't the four words, but I don't think I've seen people argue that "My power... EXCEEDS yours!" were the four words, and I have to say that it seems fairly reasonable to me. Then again, its also getting late and I'm getting tired, so maybe my brain's messed up.

I still have to hate you for bringing back the debate though, nothing personal.

I still choose to believe personally that it was "I cannot fail again!", but that's just splitting hairs; to me, the important bit is that it's over and done and we don't need to have these threads anymore yayayay.

Also, I once saw someone say "maybe 'urrk! unnh! gllch! skrrlch.' are the four words!" which is the least sensical, and therefore my favorite, of the theories on this matter I've heard.

Souhiro
2009-07-15, 03:36 AM
Many say that the Three Fiends aren't the "Right being". They're right, but...


I am the one and only that notice that the blue orb, the one which grants the splice, is the orb at V's RIGHT???

"The Right Being --> The Being at the Right"

Morquard
2009-07-15, 03:54 AM
*sighs* I don't know why this always comes up again.

Its so obvious that V already spoke the 4 words. They were "Expeditious Retreat! Expeditious Retreat!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html)

In doing so he escaped the deadly ninja brigade who were obviously coming to offer their help in destroying the evil lich. With their help they would have easily killed Xykon and Redcloak and destroyed the phylactery in strip 12 already. They would never have met Nale and the Linear Guild, so they would never go on the starmetal quest they send them on. So V would never kill the young black dragon and his mom would never seek revenge and threaten his family. So V would have no reason to accept the soul splice.

Therefore in running away he dragged out the main plot and set events in motion that would ultimately gain him Ultimate Arcane Power.

Isn't that so brilliant?

The right being: Himself I guess...
The right time: WHat time can be more right for these words then when you have to run?
The wrong reasons: They fled from allies they didn't even see. They paniced. Thats wrong.

And if you say all of this makes absolutely no sense at all... then you're most likely completely right.

Lombard
2009-07-15, 04:09 AM
The MitD is not a monster invented by Rich Burlew, according to Rich Burlew (although I'm not sure where the quotation is).

Actually he said it's not one he invented just for this comic I think, which was kind of an odd way of wording it. So maybe it's a Weretrex (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/Pnoxyx12ZcZ8H5zI78m.html) or something!

Ancalagon
2009-07-15, 04:11 AM
"The Right Being --> The Being at the Right"

Since when become the orb a "being". It's an object, not a living being, so... no.

thalandus
2009-07-15, 04:15 AM
It would be poignant if the ultimate arcane power occurs later on, and refers to V's using powers wisely and appropriately. That way V gets to kick some ass later on, after he matures.

pflare
2009-07-15, 07:52 AM
First of may I say it...I love speculation! OK now that that's out of the way., I don't think that there is going to be another event/situation/plotline where V us going to achieve "ultimate arcane power". The only way V is going to get more powerful is by leveling up naturally. While its technically true that V's soul powers weren't storng enough to beat Xykon (as per Xykon's speech) it doesn't mean that they weren't the fufillment of the prophecy.
What V has always wanted was ultimate power and as Inkyrius put it
"This is what you have always really wanted." Meaning that V got what s/he thought was ultimate arcane power. What Xykon was saying was that V's perceptions of power were wrong. Essentially V wanted the wrong thing.

Morgan Wick
2009-07-15, 08:34 PM
Been there, done that, got flamed for it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113102)