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Elfin
2009-07-14, 06:45 PM
ToB description:
Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds. The effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

So, my question is: can the "condition" that heals be damage you've taken?

AslanCross
2009-07-14, 06:51 PM
Ah, the badly-worded IHS.

Damage doesn't have a listed duration. It's instantaneous, just as a fireball is instantaneous. IHS can only act on effects that have a listed duration.

Ravens_cry
2009-07-14, 06:51 PM
ToB description:
Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds. The effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

So, my question is: can the "condition" that heals be damage you've taken?
Condition has a specific meaning in D&D. Condition Summery SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm)

Assassin89
2009-07-14, 06:51 PM
I do not think so. HP damage is not a condition (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm).

Aneantir
2009-07-14, 06:51 PM
ToB description:
Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds. The effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

So, my question is: can the "condition" that heals be damage you've taken?

No. Damage does not have a duration, persay, so it doesn't qualify.

Ninjas galore!

Raum
2009-07-14, 06:53 PM
ToB description:
Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds. The effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

So, my question is: can the "condition" that heals be damage you've taken?Not with anyone I know GMing.

It's worth pointing out that the condition needs to have a duration to be valid. Damage is generally 'instant' but something causing a temporary HP loss with a limited duration would be a valid candidate.

Lamech
2009-07-14, 06:56 PM
The real question is what qualifies as an effect? If I'm on fire does that count? If I'm burning because my surrounding are on fire does that count? What about a forcecage that is preventing me from moving forward? (I'm actually pressing into it.) The strong nuclear force?

Elfin
2009-07-14, 06:57 PM
OK, thanks for the help.
And the next question is:
is Iron Heart Surge worth getting?

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-14, 06:57 PM
Technically, damage would be an effect, not a condition. But yes, IHS wouldn't get rid of ordinary damage.

RebelRogue
2009-07-14, 07:00 PM
The strong nuclear force?
Hardly a condition, now is it? Although suppressing it would certainly lead to impressive results with high lethality!

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 07:00 PM
OK, thanks for the help.
And the next question is:
is Iron Heart Surge worth getting?

Depends on the readings your DM uses, but usually yes. Being able to negate Anti-Magic Fields, Rays of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion/etc., Slows and so on is just gold.

Salt_Crow
2009-07-14, 07:01 PM
It'd at least get rid of pesky Antimagic Field, the sunlight that's dazzling your drow (or orc) character, nuclear disaster etc etc.

Aneantir
2009-07-14, 07:03 PM
OK, thanks for the help.
And the next question is:
is Iron Heart Surge worth getting?

It's incredibly useful. You want to take it. Even for silly things like breaking AMFs.

Guancyto
2009-07-14, 07:04 PM
It depends.

You're obligated by contract to shout out a catchphrase ("Setting me on fire? My blood burns hotter than the sun!" etc.) or something similar every time you use it. If you aren't into that sort of thing, you might want to shy away from taking it.

Otherwise, go nuts.

Frosty
2009-07-14, 07:05 PM
IHS is in DIRE need of an errata from WotC.

kjones
2009-07-14, 07:06 PM
For those who are suggesting using IHS to extinguish the sun, etc., we shall once again reiterate that "duration" has a specific meaning in D&D. Technically, the sun has a "duration", in that (by real world physics) it will eventually go out, but that's not what the wording of IHS means.

Guancyto
2009-07-14, 07:09 PM
For those who are suggesting using IHS to extinguish the sun, etc., we shall once again reiterate that "duration" has a specific meaning in D&D. Technically, the sun has a "duration", in that (by real world physics) it will eventually go out, but that's not what the wording of IHS means.

Well yeah.

To do that, the sun would have to use IHS to end its 'burning' condition. I'm pretty sure the sun is a Druid in Colossal Elemental Form, not a Warblade.

HamHam
2009-07-14, 07:09 PM
IHS is in DIRE need of an errata from WotC.

More like it's in dire need of someone common sense DMing.

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 07:11 PM
More like it's in dire need of someone common sense DMing.

It has another problem too: It can't really be used against the condition you'd think it should be, just for the theatric effects (like Dominates, Charms, Stuns, etc.) 'cause they deny you the action. So it does really want some errata. But as WoTC has abandoned us, we gotta do that ourselves (like making it a purely mental action.

Drammel
2009-07-14, 07:11 PM
Not an errata (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13144675&postcount=5), but the best that we're ever going to get for the Tome of Battle, considering that the official one is so completely screwed up still.

Check under "Specific Maneuver Questions" for what Iron Heart Surge can and cannot remove.

Salt_Crow
2009-07-14, 07:12 PM
For those who are suggesting using IHS to extinguish the sun, etc., we shall once again reiterate that "duration" has a specific meaning in D&D. Technically, the sun has a "duration", in that (by real world physics) it will eventually go out, but that's not what the wording of IHS means.

It's always fun to bring it up though XD

Anyways, would it be able to end things like Swallow Whole though? It's got unspecified "duration" (as in, you either break out after a few rounds or you die horribly) and... you can effectively end the creature's (read: Tarrasque's) gut!

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 07:48 PM
It's always fun to bring it up though XD

Anyways, would it be able to end things like Swallow Whole though? It's got unspecified "duration" (as in, you either break out after a few rounds or you die horribly) and... you can effectively end the creature's (read: Tarrasque's) gut!

Being swallowed does not have a set duration.

Ravens_cry
2009-07-14, 08:04 PM
Being swallowed does not have a set duration.
I would personally say it gives the +2 to attack rolls, though.

holywhippet
2009-07-14, 08:52 PM
It'd at least get rid of pesky Antimagic Field, the sunlight that's dazzling your drow (or orc) character, nuclear disaster etc etc.

That's questionable. As someone else pointed out in a different thread the text specifically states:

When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds.

Antimagic field doesn't have a duration specified in rounds, it's 10 minutes per level. If they meant for spell like that to be affected by ironheart surge they would have said it works when the duration is one round or greater.

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 08:54 PM
Antimagic field doesn't have a duration specified in rounds, it's 10 minutes per level. If they meant for spell like that to be affected by ironheart surge they would have said it works when the duration is one round or greater.

No, because duration 1 round or greater would allow the ending of permanent effects, or the sun, or whatever.

Duration measured in rounds means an effect that runs out.

ColdSepp
2009-07-14, 08:55 PM
The FAQ states IHS will end AMF... While the FAQ isn't RAW, its a good place to check.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-14, 08:59 PM
I do not think so. HP damage is not a condition (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm).

Living and the Sun, however, are. We've proven this for comedic value.

holywhippet
2009-07-14, 09:07 PM
No, because duration 1 round or greater would allow the ending of permanent effects, or the sun, or whatever.

Duration measured in rounds means an effect that runs out.

The sun doesn't have a stated duration though.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-15, 04:37 AM
Thank you 3.5 for making us look at rules rather than roleplay. Now to flex my muscles so hard that I turn this AMF off.

obnoxious
sig

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-15, 06:06 AM
Thank you 3.5 for making us look at rules rather than roleplay. Now to flex my muscles so hard that I turn this AMF off.

obnoxious
sig

IMHO, is a very bad interpetation. I can understand that IHS removes, say, ray of exaustion of even negtive levels because the strenght and the will of the warrior yadda yadda, but one thing is being fatigued, or even trampled by a tsunami, or pinned by a shadocaster spell, and one thing is an area effect.

You ARE ina an AMF, you are not "AMFielded". Regardless the FAQ, I'd rule does not work.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-15, 06:47 AM
This maneuver isn't as overwhelming if you pay strict attention to the specification, including the grammar.

The Iron Heart Surge maneuver will immediately end "one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds." As this specification is grammatically distinct from "1 round or longer", the Surge is only effective against impediments with a stated duration of some number of rounds; durations expressed in minutes or other units of time are unaffected.

Numeric equivalence is not the same as grammatic exactitude. A Surge can end some effect with a listed duration of 10 rounds; it cannot end something with a listed duration of 1 minute.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 08:31 AM
This maneuver isn't as overwhelming if you pay strict attention to the specification, including the grammar.

Being a linguistic aficionado myself, I noticed this the first time one of my players asked to remove something weird (I think he was arguing that being manacled was an ongoing condition, so being a low-skills Dex character he wanted to use this instead of Str or Escape Artist). I've been running it this way since then, and can attest that limiting the targets to round/level effects fixes it almost completely.

Blackfang108
2009-07-15, 08:34 AM
It'd at least get rid of pesky Antimagic Field, the sunlight that's dazzling your drow (or orc) character, nuclear disaster etc etc.

SUnlight isn't a condition.

Nuclear Winter isn't a condition.

I'm fairly sure being in an AMF isn't a condition, either. Nor is being in a Wall of Fire.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-15, 08:36 AM
SUnlight isn't a condition.

Nuclear Winter isn't a condition.

I'm fairly sure being in an AMF isn't a condition, either. Nor is being in a Wall of Fire.

FAQ says otherwise.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 08:46 AM
FAQ says otherwise.

Quote, please? The FAQ isn't rules text, just "official suggestions," and as far as I know a condition is one of a specific list of conditions such as "blinded," "stunned," or "entangled," and I don't see "light," "fallout," or "fire" on that list.

Blackfang108
2009-07-15, 08:52 AM
FAQ says otherwise.

On sunlight and nuclear winter?

And the FAQ was written by an idiot. there are entirely too many blatantly contrary interpertations of rules in the FAQ for me to ever take it seriously.

AMF isn't a condition effecting you, it's a Zone you happen to be in. In any of my games, attempting to end an AMF will work, but you'll have Inevitables after you for such a blatant violation of natural laws.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-15, 09:00 AM
Quote, please? The FAQ isn't rules text, just "official suggestions," and as far as I know a condition is one of a specific list of conditions such as "blinded," "stunned," or "entangled," and I don't see "light," "fallout," or "fire" on that list.

You mean IHS can't cure cancer, put out your clothes, or make you go blind because the Sun is hurting you?


On sunlight and nuclear winter?

And the FAQ was written by an idiot. there are entirely too many blatantly contrary interpertations of rules in the FAQ for me to ever take it seriously.

AMF isn't a condition effecting you, it's a Zone you happen to be in. In any of my games, attempting to end an AMF will work, but you'll have Inevitables after you for such a blatant violation of natural laws.

I wouldn't go as far as sicking Inevitables on them. Non-casters need the help. Though I agree that the FAQ tends to be a blind-idiot's attempt to make a ruling.

I'd rule that IHS wouldn't end the Nuclear Winter, but it would remove the cancer from your system. We would then break out into Chuck Norris jokes for the rest of the session.

Lamech
2009-07-15, 09:13 AM
SUnlight isn't a condition.

Nuclear Winter isn't a condition.

I'm fairly sure being in an AMF isn't a condition, either. Nor is being in a Wall of Fire.
Err... it ends a condition, effect, or spell. Nuclear winter is questionable on if it works by RAW. AMF you could argue it doesn't effect the IHS user. Wall of fire is ended easily, it is a spell affecting you. Forcecage would also be defeatable if you applied pressure to it and then IHS.


Numeric equivalence is not the same as grammatic exactitude. A Surge can end some effect with a listed duration of 10 rounds; it cannot end something with a listed duration of 1 minute.
Sorry one minute is ten rounds. 12 inches is one foot. They are the same.



Thank you 3.5 for making us look at rules rather than roleplay. Now to flex my muscles so hard that I turn this AMF off.

obnoxious
sig
A lot of things in ToB are like that. Like the manuever that lets you teleport. Or all those healing ablities. Like the one that mimics a heal spell? "Look at me my awesomeness can cure blindness and cancer and restore HP". Why do we NOT have a problem with healing people, but have a problem with dispelling magic. Magic seems easier to hand wave...

IHS runs into problems when people start including effects. Thats how we get the sun being turned off or fundemental forces removed. "Effect" needs to be left up to the DM.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 09:17 AM
You mean IHS can't cure cancer, put out your clothes, or make you go blind because the Sun is hurting you?

Not unless the spell or effect giving you cancer, keeping your clothes alight, or creating an illusion of the sun lasts rounds/level.


A lot of things in ToB are like that. Like the manuever that lets you teleport. Or all those healing ablities. Like the one that mimics a heal spell? "Look at me my awesomeness can cure blindness and cancer and restore HP". Why do we NOT have a problem with healing people, but have a problem with dispelling magic. Magic seems easier to hand wave...

It wouldn't be a problem if (A) it were obviously an intentional effect (i.e., the description says "End any single effect affecting you, and yes, we mean any, including the sun" or whatever) and (B) it were a higher-level maneuver. A 9th-level strike that blots out the sun? Sure, go for it; I'd love to use it. A 3rd-level maneuver that permanently removes the sun? No.

Frosty
2009-07-15, 09:40 AM
I personally think IHS *should* end cancer. It's a disease, and being diseased is clearly a condition in DnD.

Blackfang108
2009-07-15, 09:44 AM
I personally think IHS *should* end cancer. It's a disease, and being diseased is clearly a condition in DnD.

Technically true...

I just hope no one with the Cancer Mage PrC accidentally uses it... That would hurt.


Nuclear winter is questionable on if it works by RAW.
Questionable? It's not an effect. It doesn't have a given duration. How is this questionable? It's like trying to end the sunlight as a Drow.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 10:07 AM
I personally think IHS *should* end cancer. It's a disease, and being diseased is clearly a condition in DnD.

Do you see it in this list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)? If not, it may be a condition, but it's not a condition by the rules.

And besides, only Chuck Norris's tears cure cancer, and he can't cry as part of IHS. :smallwink:

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-15, 10:12 AM
Do you see it in this list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)? If not, it may be a condition, but it's not a condition by the rules.

And besides, only Chuck Norris's tears cure cancer, and he can't cry as part of IHS. :smallwink:

No, but he can let out a roar of manliness so powerful that the cancer kills itself out of fear. Incidentally, all living creatures within a 14 kilometer radius would spontaneously implode from the sheer awesome.

Toliudar
2009-07-15, 10:33 AM
Do you see it in this list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)? If not, it may be a condition, but it's not a condition by the rules.

And besides, only Chuck Norris's tears cure cancer, and he can't cry as part of IHS. :smallwink:

The problem is that, by that extremely limited reading, it doesn't do anything against effects like, say, slow, or poison (not the ongoing penalty from a failed save, but the secondary damage a minute after it's introduced), or faerie fire. All of these seem like exactly the kind of effect that IHS should be used against.

Ravens_cry
2009-07-15, 10:51 AM
The problem is that, by that extremely limited reading, it doesn't do anything against effects like, say, slow, or poison (not the ongoing penalty from a failed save, but the secondary damage a minute after it's introduced), or faerie fire. All of these seem like exactly the kind of effect that IHS should be used against.
Why wouldn't it affect Slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Slow.htm)? It has a duration of 1 or more rounds. In this case, 1 round per caster level of the castee. It is not a condition, but Iron Heart works on spells too.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 11:07 AM
The problem is that, by that extremely limited reading, it doesn't do anything against effects like, say, slow, or poison (not the ongoing penalty from a failed save, but the secondary damage a minute after it's introduced), or faerie fire. All of these seem like exactly the kind of effect that IHS should be used against.

Well, slow is a spell lasting 1 or more rounds and so is covered. Faerie fire wouldn't be covered, but then again neither are compulsions, transmutations, and other things you should be able to get rid of because you can't take the action to use it, so faerie fire is the least of your worries. Neutralize poison is a 4th level spell, so it makes sense a 3rd-level maneuver wouldn't get rid of it.

Part of the problem here is exaggerated expectations of what a 3rd-level maneuver should be able to do. I could easily see a maneuver at, say, 7th level which let you use it even if dominated/petrified/etc. and removed a harmful spell, effect, or condition if it is generated by (or can be removed by) a spell of 4th level or lower. At 3rd level, however, it's already quite good for being able to remove blindness and deafness, confusion, dazzling, fatigue/exhaustion, entanglement, fear, and sickening/nausea--it's like a personal range auto-dispel or break enchantment that doesn't run out.

woodenbandman
2009-07-15, 11:16 AM
Just use your judgement. Nobody would really try to end their own life with Iron Heart Surge.

Ravens_cry
2009-07-15, 11:33 AM
It would take an anally narrow definition not to work on faerie fire. Yes, the duration is said in minutes per level, but minutes is just short hand for 10 rounds. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm). Sure, this is a powerful ability, but don't take away from what it CAN do.
The worst part is effects, what is and what isn't an effect is much more debatable.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-15, 11:34 AM
Well, slow is a spell lasting 1 or more rounds and so is covered. Faerie fire wouldn't be covered, but then again neither are compulsions, transmutations, and other things you should be able to get rid of because you can't take the action to use it, so faerie fire is the least of your worries. Neutralize poison is a 4th level spell, so it makes sense a 3rd-level maneuver wouldn't get rid of it.

Part of the problem here is exaggerated expectations of what a 3rd-level maneuver should be able to do. I could easily see a maneuver at, say, 7th level which let you use it even if dominated/petrified/etc. and removed a harmful spell, effect, or condition if it is generated by (or can be removed by) a spell of 4th level or lower. At 3rd level, however, it's already quite good for being able to remove blindness and deafness, confusion, dazzling, fatigue/exhaustion, entanglement, fear, and sickening/nausea--it's like a personal range auto-dispel or break enchantment that doesn't run out.

Except IHS can't remove Petrification, Death, Stunning/Dazing, or any effect that denies you your standard action for the round.

And why can't the melee class have a nice toy that prevents auto-rape? They can only use it once every other round, and if they do they can't do much else afterwords. If he's spamming IHS every other round, he isn't using Strikes and thus denying himself potential abilities.

Swordsages can get IHS, but they can only recover it with a Full Round action. Crusaders may not need the action to recover it, but they can only initiate it once every 3 or 4 rounds, rather than every other round.

It may be automatic, but there's a lot of other automatic abilities in 3.5, some of which are actually broken (Truenamer Gate SLA at will, for example).

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 11:40 AM
And why can't the melee class have a nice toy that prevents auto-rape?

I don't have a problem with melee types getting Nice ThingsTM; the issue I have is that this is a badly-defined, overly vague ability that comes at too low a level for its effects. Interpreted very strictly, it's still as good or better as-is against many effects than magical removal methods; interpreted very broadly, it would be better as a 5th- to 7th-level ability.

If IHS allowed you to remove any single condition (as denoted in that list), any temporary spell effect of X level or lower, and any effect that could be removed by a spell of Y or lower, it would be fine; as it is, if you can interpret it to do things like remove the sun, it's either too low-level or too powerful.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-15, 11:42 AM
I don't have a problem with melee types getting Nice ThingsTM; the issue I have is that this is a badly-defined, overly vague ability that comes at too low a level for its effects. Interpreted very strictly, it's still as good or better as-is against many effects than magical removal methods; interpreted very broadly, it would be better as a 5th- to 7th-level ability.

If IHS allowed you to remove any single condition (as denoted in that list), any temporary spell effect of X level or lower, and any effect that could be removed by a spell of Y or lower, it would be fine; as it is, if you can interpret it to do things like remove the sun, it's either too low-level or too powerful.

Or written by manatees.

quick_comment
2009-07-15, 11:52 AM
I interpret it to make a single spell (with a duration other than instantaneous) effect you as if it had failed its resistance check and/or you saved against it with mettle+evasion. Also, it is a mental action that can be used even when you are dominated.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-15, 11:54 AM
You know, the weirdest thing to me is that IHS stands alone in the ToB as a maneuver that is neither stance, strike, boost, nor counter. It's almost as if the designers were trying to call attention to it. From there, it's so poorly worded as to be nearly unusable in any reasonable fashion.

I had a player take it in my game, and told him upfront (before he locked in his choice) that we would have to play it by ear as to which effects were Surgeable. He trusted me enough not to nerf him that he took it anyway, but he knew he wasn't going to be dispelling walls of force with it.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 11:58 AM
Or written by manatees.

Hey! :smallannoyed: Don't you dare compare those poor manatees to WotC designers where they can't defend themselves!


You know, the weirdest thing to me is that IHS stands alone in the ToB as a maneuver that is neither stance, strike, boost, nor counter. It's almost as if the designers were trying to call attention to it. From there, it's so poorly worded as to be nearly unusable in any reasonable fashion.

The SH teleport maneuvers are none of those, I believe, as well as the IH self-heal maneuver whose name I don't recall at the moment. It's not the only one.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-15, 12:02 PM
I interpret it to make a single spell (with a duration other than instantaneous) effect you as if it had failed its resistance check and/or you saved against it with mettle+evasion. Also, it is a mental action that can be used even when you are dominated.

No, it's a Standard action Strike (technically, it's unclassified), and all maneuvers require you to be able to move.

Edit:


I believe, as well as the IH self-heal maneuver whose name I don't recall at the moment. It's not the only one.


Strike of Righteous Vitality isn't a strike? That's news.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-15, 12:02 PM
The SH teleport maneuvers are none of those, I believe, as well as the IH self-heal maneuver whose name I don't recall at the moment. It's not the only one.

Okay, you're right. Iron Heart Surge was just the one that caught my attention. I hadn't read through the Shadow Hand stuff in enough detail, and I just plain missed the self-healing IH one.

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 12:08 PM
Here's the version of IHS I use in my own games:
"Action: Mental standard action or all actions the character may take this turn if standard action not available.
Effect: You may (re)roll a saving throw against any not-self-inflicted effect with a duration affecting you right now. If the effect didn't originally allow a saving throw, calculate the save DC as follows: 10+Spell Level+User's primary casting stat for spells, 10+½ HD+key stat (if none are stated, assume Constitution for extraordinary effects and Charisma for supernatural effects) for abilities. If successful, effect ends with regards to you and you get +2 bla bla bla. You may only use Iron Heart Surge once per hour against a given effect."

In game, I rarely have to do any houseruling; the save keeps the ability from being overspammed or too powerful, but still, being able to gain a save vs. Enervation, AMF or Ray of Dizziness is nice. Also, the limitation on uses keeps it a cinematic "RAAAAWR!"-moment, and the limitation against using it vs. your own effects keeps you from AMFing yourself and being unaffected.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 12:29 PM
Strike of Righteous Vitality isn't a strike? That's news.

Devoted Spirit isn't the only one with self-heals; there's one Iron Heart maneuver that lets you heal 2*IL HP or something along those lines.

EDIT: Found some maneuver cards on the WotC site. I was thinking of Iron Heart Endurance, which is apparently a boost. My bad.

Tokiko Mima
2009-07-15, 05:03 PM
If you teleported a Warblade into the vacuum of space, would it fill it with breathable air? Drowning is a condition with a duration, after all.

Would teleporting a Warblade into the Sun allow them to put it out? Being burned, vaporized and massively irradiated would be effects with effectively instantaneous durations.

What if the warblade was of an oppressed minority, could they end the suffering inherent to the human condition? :smallbiggrin::smalltongue::smallamused:

quick_comment
2009-07-15, 05:19 PM
If you teleported a Warblade into the vacuum of space, would it fill it with breathable air? Drowning is a condition with a duration, after all.

You dont drown in vacuum.

NEO|Phyte
2009-07-15, 05:21 PM
You dont drown in vacuum.

but Space is an Ocean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean)!

Oslecamo
2009-07-15, 06:52 PM
but Space is an Ocean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean)!

Yes, since it also has allows for the propagation of sound, as you can perfectly hear the explosions, and if you try to use a ranged weapon you're doomed to die at the hands of some sword waving warrior/robot.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-16, 05:12 AM
Stuff about IHS

This just plain sucks.

Personally, I have no problem with IHS being used on any condition, spell or effect working on you within reason. Further, when it ends it only ends effects for you. Entire party gets Charmed? You IHS it away for yourself.

Eldan
2009-07-16, 05:53 AM
Ah, that maneuver again. It came up exactly once with people I played with and I made some impromptu house rules regarding it, which I think work well:

-A spell, effect or condition affecting you and you alone is ended, within reasonable limits*. This includes stuff like charmed, weakened, fatigued, a poison and many others.

-Stuff that affects several people, but not an area, ends for you and you alone. Entire party charmed? You are free. Also, reasonable limits*.

-Anything affecting an area? Stops affecting you for a short time (tm), often one round. The solid fog over the area? You run through it. The wall of fire? Same.

Basically, this really only works on a table with reasonable people and involves some ad-hoc rulings. It's basically allowed when it's cinematic and makes at least a little sense: the example of someone breaking manacles? I'd allow it. Headbutting a wall of force out of existence? Not so much.


Oh, and incidentally, we also made a maneuver called Greater Iron Heart Surge, which could be used in situations when you technically could't take any actions, including being dominated, petrified or in a time stop. (Yes, especially in time stops. Just because the facial expression of the BBEG is awesome to behold.)

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-16, 06:18 AM
Oh, and incidentally, we also made a maneuver called Greater Iron Heart Surge, which could be used in situations when you technically could't take any actions, including being dominated, petrified or in a time stop. (Yes, especially in time stops. Just because the facial expression of the BBEG is awesome to behold.)

But Time Stop is a condition on the caster, not others. It's like Haste on steroids. What are you going to do, accelerate yourself to the caster's level?

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-16, 06:23 AM
But Time Stop is a condition on the caster, not others. It's like Haste on steroids. What are you going to do, accelerate yourself to the caster's level?

I agree. I'm fine with removing conditions, and I'd even expand IHS to be able to remove condition not allowing you to move or take standard action (like, say, stunned or immobilized in water with chains*), if very "physical".

But timestop is sorta buff. Cannot be affected, IMHO.




* In this case, we know now that Houdini was a warblade, or at least took several martial studies.

Eldan
2009-07-16, 06:26 AM
Okay, the Time Stop was probably not justified, I give you that. It was mostly because it looked good in that particular situation and because the party was losing. I should probably not have allowed it.

Blackfang108
2009-07-16, 08:32 AM
Oh, and incidentally, we also made a maneuver called Greater Iron Heart Surge, which could be used in situations when you technically could't take any actions, including being dominated, petrified or in a time stop. (Yes, especially in time stops. Just because the facial expression of the BBEG is awesome to behold.)

What level was that manuver?

6? 9?

Eldan
2009-07-16, 08:35 AM
About 7 or 8, I think.