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SirKazum
2009-07-14, 08:41 PM
A lot has been said and done about character optimization, but you don't often see CO-style thought exercises aimed at PC groups rather than individual PCs. So, I'd like to see some thoughts at what do you consider to be the "best" (from a purely powergaming perspective) party in D&D, preferably with details such as feats, class/level progression, stats, and so on. For the sake of common ground, let's say, a 4-person-strong party, built with 25-point-buy (if you wanna get into that), core-only for the sake of simplicity.

My suggestion - 2 clerics, 1 druid, 1 wizard. Everyone says about how the cleric is the most versatile class, especially at higher levels, and while it may lose to wizards on 1-on-1, it's more useful overall in a party, so I thought I'd start there. Instead of making it 4 clerics (which I'm led to believe would be a pretty solid party), I thought I'd throw in a druid and a wizard for the sake of variety, since both classes are also very versatile and powerful, also especially at higher levels. However, since I'm not so well-versed in powergaming, I'm not pegging down stuff like feats, PrCs, cleric domains, and so on just yet - I'd like to hear some suggestions first.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-14, 08:47 PM
You need trapfinding...so one of the casters has to do something like have the Kobold domain or burn a feat to get it or have a rogue cohort...

Edit #1: or get DMM and persist Find Traps
Edit #2: or have one of the casters be a beguiler

...even so a rogue in the party is never bad thing.

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 08:52 PM
Four ruby knight vindicators.

They have trapfinding covered by the find traps spell and summond creatures.
They are capable in melee.
They are capable with magic.
They are highly mobile, have absurd offensive power and are nigh unkillable.



You could also do four wizards. One incantrix, one dweomerkeeper, one rainbow servant, one Haluuran elder. Incantrix persists all the buffs and the malconvoker's summons. Dweomerkeeper abuses supernatural spell for spells with xp cost and expensive components. Haluuran elder uses circle magic.


The sky is really the limit.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 08:53 PM
Four bards. A literal band of heroes.

Amador
2009-07-14, 08:55 PM
Druids...
Apparently that was too few characters

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 08:56 PM
Four bards. A literal band of heroes.

Now make them all bard/warblades or crusaders with song of the white raven and I will agree with you.

Jack_Simth
2009-07-14, 08:57 PM
Depends on the DM.

In a world where you never encounter antimagic fields of significant size? That party will work quite well. In a world where you do, occasionally, need to adventure for a time inside an AMF? Then they're liable to get into a TPK the first time they do. You need a meatshield that continues to be so inside an AMF.

Sure, an Unseen Servant dragging 100-lbs sacks of rocks + Arcane Sight will catch all of the standard traps ... but a discriminating magical trap with Magic Aura on it so it doesn't register to Arcane Sight will catch the party every single time. Sure, you can scout around with Clairaudience and Clairvoyence, but Detect Scrying plus False Vision will catch you every time. You really do need a proper Rogue.

Sure, casters tend to hog the spotlight... but there's a reason that the party of Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric is iconic.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-14, 08:57 PM
They have trapfinding covered by the find traps spell

Yeah I forgot. Get Divine Metamagic and Persist it...

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-14, 08:58 PM
2 Wizards (Trans, Conjure)
1 Druid
1 UMD-focused Rogue


Druid's animal companion and Wild Shape act to cover the Tanking roles. Transmuter buffs both of them, and Conjurer spams Battlefield Control to make sure everyone lives. Rogue uses UMD to cover healing, trap-finding, scouting, and the occasional Kill-Snipe via Sneak Attack.

In case of emergency, you have 3 casters and a mini-caster. Anyone of them can take Leadership to make something new.

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 08:58 PM
Sure, an Unseen Servant dragging 100-lbs sacks of rocks + Arcane Sight will catch all of the standard traps ... but a discriminating magical trap with Magic Aura on it so it doesn't register to Arcane Sight will catch the party every single time. Sure, you can scout around with Clairaudience and Clairvoyence, but Detect Scrying plus False Vision will catch you every time. You really do need a proper Rogue.


Summon elemental reserve feat. Just pepper the area with summoned minions to set off all the traps.

quick_comment
2009-07-14, 08:59 PM
You could also do diviner, hulking hurler.

Diviner finds the BBEG, hulking hurler throws the moon at him.

Jack_Simth
2009-07-14, 09:15 PM
Summon elemental reserve feat. Just pepper the area with summoned minions to set off all the traps.
Two problems with that:
First:

core-only for the sake of simplicity
Summon Elemental is from Complete Mage, and the Completes aren't *normally* considered part of Core.

Second (and more to the point):
The Unseen Servant dragging a 100 pound bag of rocks is for the exact same purpose; I was just adjusting the technique based on available sources as listed by the OP. The specific method used doesn't matter, as they amount to the same thing. The same technique that foils the Unseen Servant also foils the Summon Elemental Reserve feat when used to the same purpose. If I take a magic trap, equip it with True Seeing, and set the trigger condition to "A humanoid walks through this area", then come by every few days and again and put a Magic Aura spell on it so that it doesn't register as magical, then
1) Your elemental won't set it off.
2) Your Arcane Sight spell won't detect it.
3) Your magical disguise/invisibility won't help.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 09:25 PM
Now make them all bard/warblades or crusaders with song of the white raven and I will agree with you.

Core only.

But seriously, four bards animating objects and strumming it out with the Lyre of Building in unison...

"I'm sorry, was that your dungeon?"

tiercel
2009-07-14, 09:31 PM
Optimization is going to depend, of course -- partly on wealth/power level (how easy it is to get magic items / the specific magic items you want) but also on *character* level. If you are talking about a party that will play though the sorts of levels that are most common in my experience (1-10), the "all caster" paradigm doesn't hold as much water. If you're talking about a campaign up into the teens in levels, increasingly pretty much any four characters with full caster level can pretty much do.

There is a reason that the Big Four roles (Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Mage) exist, after all. It's not that you necessarily need those four classes -- poor Fighters, after all, and arguably even straight Rogues -- but at some point, at least during the low-to-mid levels, you generally will need someone to fill those roles somehow. For example, at higher levels, you may be to able to supplant Fighter role with summons and/or polymorph/megabuffs and/or raw overwhelming magical offense/defense, but at the lower levels you live in a world where critters will try to run up in your face and bash on you, you have to be able to deal.

Also, honestly, if you can fill the basic roles (in whatever way), your party will be well rounded to meet all sorts of threats. Unless you have a heavily themed campaign, in general your party will meet a decent range of the Monster Manual entries, not to mention tweaked versions of them, the occasional homebrewed BBEG, and often at least some non-combat challenges. If your party gets a little "one trick pony" sooner or later the DM will succumb to the temptation to drop a nemesis on you which resists your party's strengths and/or exploits their most obvious weaknessses.

And in my experience, most groups of players pretty well recognize this and look to fill those roles, even if the Fighter role is a buff-heavy cleric or polymorphing eldritch knight, the Thief role is a beguiler, the Mage role is a Wiz5/IotSV7/CIA1/FBI2/KGB2/OMGWTFBBQ2, etc... the point is, that as a party, one or more characters can fill every basic adventuring role.

Indon
2009-07-14, 09:35 PM
What are we optimizing - raw party power, party versatility, or party synergy?

Each would lead to wildly different choices.

SirKazum
2009-07-14, 09:53 PM
Heck, this is just a thought experiment, based on the commonly-ventilated idea that full-casters can pretty much do everything that other characters can do (i.e. the "tier" classification). But I agree that this idea works much better at higher levels than at lower ones.

Anyway, even if you're going with your classic tank/trapfinder/blaster/healer (or whatever you call them) combo, I'm pretty sure you can do better than just Ftr/Rog/Clr/Wiz. Is there a "better" way (again, for the sake of powergaming) to accomplish that than with those stereotypical classes? That's what I'm talking about.

Oh, and I set some ground rules because I always prefer to lay some common ground for discussion. (And, while we're on that topic, I'd prefer to see builds that work up all the way from 1st to 20th level or even beyond, though not necessarily statted in detail for every level.) Doesn't mean I'm averse to seeing stuff outside my ground rules - except that my access to supplements is extremely limited, which explains my preference for core.

And Indon - what exactly do you mean by those concepts?

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 10:25 PM
This is pretty pointless given the lack of singular goal and the broad definitions. I'd be happiest with Wizard/Wizard/Druid/Druid, but I'd be missing out on Cleric-awesome outside Core so I'd probably consider Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Druid. But in Core, Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5, Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Archmage 4, Druid 20 and Druid 20 makes for pretty optimal party. The Rogue/Wizard could also be Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Loremaster 10/Archmage 3, but Arcane Trickster feels less dirty. For races, both Wizards are Gray Elves, both Druids are Humans.

We've done something like this back at Brilliant Gameologists and indeed, 339. Optimizing Core is ridiculously easy 'cause you don't really have options. Although I wouldn't go to town without a character with Trapfinding since you don't wanna trigger all traps (triggering Alarms sucks).

You can find the BG thread here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2167.0). It seems I even started it. Umm, go me? Basic gist of it: Everyone picks Leadership, Wizards get Improved Familiar and all your cohorts have companions too, so you effectively have a 16 character party where everyone is hypercompetent (even without Leadership, having two UMDers with handy spell-likes/Telepathy in addition to 4 full casters and two ACs as bruisers is nice for a 4 player party). Although now that I think of it, a Thaumaturgist Cleric could also be nice later on, and having Magic Vestment and Heroes' Feast without items would definitely help.


Outside Core, Cleric, Druid and Wizard can all acquire Trapfinding through Planar Touchstone, and especially Wizard can be really good at it (Cleric also has the ability to just pick Kobold-domain and go to town). No summons needed, no risk of triggering traps you don't want to trigger. Ultimately, I'd probably go Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Artificer just for the sake of variety.

tiercel
2009-07-14, 10:54 PM
Heck, this is just a thought experiment, based on the commonly-ventilated idea that full-casters can pretty much do everything that other characters can do (i.e. the "tier" classification).

If casters are replacing other characters/archetypes all the time, it means the DM is giving them too much leeway to prepare, and only fight when they want to. I mean, yeah, sure, fine, a fully prepared high level wizard with an arbitrary amount of time to buff up before teleporting into the one fight for the entire day? Will rule everything. Start putting PCs in situations where they don't necessarily get to choose the terms of every fight and see if everyone is cool with Mr. Warpriest taking 5 rounds to Power Up before actually entering combat, though.

In general though, it should take some effort to perform a role not your own, and that's, at least potentially, a tactical round-by-round decision. How many rounds are you prepared to spend summoning/buffing/etc?


Anyway, even if you're going with your classic tank/trapfinder/blaster/healer (or whatever you call them) combo, I'm pretty sure you can do better than just Ftr/Rog/Clr/Wiz. Is there a "better" way (again, for the sake of powergaming) to accomplish that than with those stereotypical classes? That's what I'm talking about.

In Core? Well.. you are a little limited. If you care about trapfinding you must have a Rogue (or at least a Rogue/X who keeps Search/DD maxed), at least to be viable until the "I can use summons to set off every trap" mentality can realistically be an option.

Ditto for arcane casting. If it's a role you want to fill, either you've got Wiz or Sor (or a lot of non-full-arcane casting -- e.g. multiple divine casters plus secondary caster like bard).

There's pretty much no reason not to have a Cleric and/or Druid, given you need the role anyway and everybody goes on about how inherently broken they are. They're not. They're inherently strong, with few weaknesses, and certainly breakable, but as a class (as opposed to, say, individual spells) not necessarily broken.

Probably the most flexibility in Core would be in the Fighter role, since your Cleric/Druid could choose to fill that role, especially with support, not to mention that there are multiple actual Fighter archetypes (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin).


And Indon - what exactly do you mean by those concepts?

Well this is the thing about optimization -- you can't just "optimize", you have to optimize *for* something. You can't just "optimize a wizard" -- you could "optimize a wizard for general all-purpose dungeon crawl settings" to some degree or "optimize a wizard for battlefield control in indoor environments" to a greater degree. Same with a party -- are you trying to maximize some overall ability like total-expected-damage-per-round? Are you trying to create a party that can handle any challenge you expect the campaign to be able to throw at you (and some that you don't expect)? Are you trying to create a party which all plays to a single themed strength (fire damage, stealth, indestructibility)?

Thrawn183
2009-07-14, 10:58 PM
3 fighters and a wizard that likes to cast haste.

Flickerdart
2009-07-14, 11:00 PM
Run a Factotum or Beguiler in the trapfinder role if you feel the need to have one. Then a CoDzilla (doesn't matter which), a batman and a Psion, for maximum versatility when dealing with guff.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 11:00 PM
3 fighters and a wizard that likes to cast haste.

Four monks with UMD.

Eldariel
2009-07-14, 11:02 PM
3 fighters and a wizard that likes to cast haste.

What's wrong with 3 Druids and their animal companions? Twice the targets! Toss in some Summon Nature's Allys and go to town.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-14, 11:43 PM
Core-only, you need a Rogue. The issue is that Trapfinding is so poorly-designed. Take a Rogue, a Druid, a Wizard, and a Cleric and go to town.

Non-core, Beguiler, Focused Specialist Wizard(Conjuration), Druid(summoning), Druid(buffing).

Or Artificer, Warblade, Wizard, Cleric

Or a Cleric, Cloistered Cleric(Kobold), Cleric, and Cleric

Really, take a couple tier 2s and a couple tier 1s, make sure you have at least one Arcanist, one trapfinder, and one healer, and the game will break. Once you take out CR+4 4x/day, does it really matter how much more awesome you can be?

That said, look at the Test of Might. Look at the parties that managed to pull out victories. Most of them were caster-heavy.

Saph
2009-07-14, 11:44 PM
For Core, I'd probably go Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue. You do want trapfinding, and the Find Traps spell just doesn't last long enough. Also, it's a big benefit to have access to all three spell lists.

At lower levels a fighter build would probably help more than the cleric, though. It does help to have a good beatstick.

Actually, you can do pretty well with the iconic party of Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Rogue, just as long as you interpret 'fighter' as 'any combo of full BAB classes'.

- Saph

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 11:45 PM
Fighter being a barbarian/fighter/ranger/horzonwalker of some sort, perhaps?

Saph
2009-07-14, 11:47 PM
What can I say, I like the build. :) Being able to Dimension Door at will and carry the rest of the party with you is a lot of fun.

- Saph

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-14, 11:50 PM
Non-core, Beguiler
D'oh! Forgot beguiler has trapfinding...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-15, 12:14 AM
D'oh! Forgot beguiler has trapfinding...I'm sure there's a list somewhere of ways to get trapfinding, but IIRC, Factotum, Kobold Domain, Rogue, Beguiler, Scout, and Artificer all get it. You need Trapfinding, not just summons and Dispel. Certain traps need to be disarmed, not just safely set off and then blown up. What about one that, say, drops the MacGuffin you're retrieving into a lake of lava? Or sets off an alarm to warn the guards?

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-15, 12:38 AM
You could do a themed "four friends" party with four clerics that would not normally be found together. Not that optimized party but each can fulfill the party roles and given the right domains the party can have access to the best spells (time stop, disjunction, etc.)...and it can make for an interesting storyline...

For ex,

The Four "Elements" (Forgotten Realms)
NG half-elf, water and magic domains (Isis), "archer"
NE dwarf, earth and protection domains (Geb), "tank"
LN gnome, fire and destruction domains (Kossuth), "blaster"
CN halfling, air and trickery domains domains (Akadi), "trapfinder" (through feat)

The Four "Evils" (Greyhawk)
N(E) lizardfolk, animal and plant domains (Semuanya), "archer/tracker"
CE gnoll, demonic and fury domains (Yeenoghu), "berserker",
NE wererat, death and pestilence domains (Incabulos), "controller/debuffer"
LE bugbear, war and trickery domains (Erythnull), "trapfinder" (through feat)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-15, 01:03 AM
I've considered tossing together 4 Druids for the ToM. NG Healer/Buffer(built for multi-targetting normally single-target spells and avoiding melee), LN built for battlefield control and taking hits, NE built for dishing out damage through spells, CN built for skill (ab)use. About the only thing they agree on is protecting nature.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-15, 01:31 AM
I've considered tossing together 4 Druids for the ToM. NG Healer/Buffer(built for multi-targetting normally single-target spells and avoiding melee), LN built for battlefield control and taking hits, NE built for dishing out damage through spells, CN built for skill (ab)use. About the only thing they agree on is protecting nature.

Sounds cool. Some of the fights in the ToX arenas have been awesome...kudos to the organizers and players...

tiercel
2009-07-15, 02:02 AM
Once you take out CR+4 4x/day, does it really matter how much more awesome you can be?

I don't care what "tiers" you're using, if you are taking out CR+4 4x/day, it means your DM doesn't know how to plan challenges properly. If players optimize, the DM should too.

That said, if you are going to go thematic (especially with a single character class), the multifunctionality of clerics and druids would pretty famously allow an all CoD party with the right specializations to do alright (example (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=247), heh). (Worst case scenario, if you really need trapfinding, one cleric goes Rog1/ClX).

lvl 1 fighter
2009-07-15, 02:15 AM
I'm sure there's a list somewhere of ways to get trapfinding

List of Stuff (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842)

Wizards boards might be down right now though.

Indon
2009-07-15, 12:46 PM
Well this is the thing about optimization -- you can't just "optimize", you have to optimize *for* something. You can't just "optimize a wizard" -- you could "optimize a wizard for general all-purpose dungeon crawl settings" to some degree or "optimize a wizard for battlefield control in indoor environments" to a greater degree. Same with a party -- are you trying to maximize some overall ability like total-expected-damage-per-round? Are you trying to create a party that can handle any challenge you expect the campaign to be able to throw at you (and some that you don't expect)? Are you trying to create a party which all plays to a single themed strength (fire damage, stealth, indestructibility)?

What he said.

I think in general, you could go with, Bard/Wizard/Druid/Cleric. The Bard starts with 1 level of Rogue for Trapfinding, and otherwise functions as the party's face. The Druid and Cleric run melee and divine casting functions (healing, buffing), and the Wizard is the primary utility spellcaster.



Four monks with UMD.

Shame it's core-only, or else I'd say Factotum/Warblades. "Would you like another action, good Sir?" "Why, I do believe I do."

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 12:52 PM
What he said.

I think in general, you could go with, Bard/Wizard/Druid/Cleric. The Bard starts with 1 level of Rogue for Trapfinding, and otherwise functions as the party's face. The Druid and Cleric run melee and divine casting functions (healing, buffing), and the Wizard is the primary utility spellcaster.

In Core, Wizards make the best trapfinders given that it's an Int-derived ability and only Wizard benefits of sickeningly high Int. That's why I definitely suggest Arcane Trickster or Loremaster for the Rogue stand-in; the extra Int makes up for the lacking skill points quite well (starting with 20 and putting all level-ups there = craptons of skills; even just the 1st Rogue level has 52 to place as he wishes).

Druids and the said Arcane Trickster can handle socials pretty well, with Druids having their massive Wis for Sense Motive (even though it's CC; one could be Monk 1/Druid 19 to max it out) and Diplomacy in class and points to put into Charisma. You can get quite the numbers for Intimidates, Bluffs and such too.

Saph
2009-07-15, 01:00 PM
In Core, Wizards make the best trapfinders given that it's an Int-derived ability and only Wizard benefits of sickeningly high Int.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, high Int isn't much use for finding traps if you don't have the Trapfinding class feature. And the only spell that grants Trapfinding is Cleric-only and has way too short a duration. So a single-classed Core Wizard isn't going to be much good at finding traps, high Int or no. (The extra bonus from an Int 18 over an Int 14 doesn't make much difference anyway, in my experience, given that Search is one of the easier skills to boost up.)

- Saph

Indon
2009-07-15, 01:56 PM
What Saph said. Bard can do trapfinding just fine with the Trapfinding class feature, and loses the least from losing a caster level, since in core the Bard is not a full caster.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-15, 02:01 PM
What Saph said. Bard can do trapfinding just fine with the Trapfinding class feature, and loses the least from losing a caster level, since in core the Bard is not a full caster.

Yea, in Core the party probably looks something like Rogue1/Bard19, Druid20, Cleric19/Heirohant1, Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage.

Well, if you use SRD to define 'core', then maybe Rogue/SA Fighter. He functions as a tank and trapspringer and can flank and dish out respectable damage with animal companion or summons.

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 02:19 PM
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, high Int isn't much use for finding traps if you don't have the Trapfinding class feature. And the only spell that grants Trapfinding is Cleric-only and has way too short a duration. So a single-classed Core Wizard isn't going to be much good at finding traps, high Int or no. (The extra bonus from an Int 18 over an Int 14 doesn't make much difference anyway, in my experience, given that Search is one of the easier skills to boost up.)

- Saph

Hence the Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster -> (or Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Loremaster ->) Much better than Rogue 1/Bard 19. Two lost caster levels, sure, but you're still better than a Core Bard and you happen to be pretty good at Sneak Attacking too so you can nuke things if need be.

Telonius
2009-07-15, 02:21 PM
Cleric, Wizard, Artificer, Druid. Two melee combatants, Batman, and a mobile magic and weapons factory.

EDIT: Didn't see "core only." Rogue/Ranger/Fighter/Horizon Walker would probably replace it, then.

Deepblue706
2009-07-15, 02:23 PM
Four Lawful Evil Halfling Fighters with all of the Mounted Combat/Archery feats. They take whatever jobs they can that involve killing Non-Wizards within the bounds of the law.

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-15, 02:30 PM
Sometime I'd like to play in a party with four Raptoran Mineral Warriors with some way to see through the stone that they move through. Not sure which of Blindsight, Blindsense, or Tremorsense would work best for this but there are ways to get all three.

Give them some good hide and move silently abilities and then travel wherever they want to travel, steal whatever they want to steal and avoid most fights by just flying/digging past them. Maybe pick up that pickpocket feat from the Stormreach Eberron book to help them steal things better.

JeenLeen
2009-07-15, 02:48 PM
The opening post pretty much describes my party. ToB, Artificer, and Factotum are banned, otherwise it would probably differ.

We are a:
Ninja 1 (Trapfinding)/Cleric--Radiant Servant of Pelor
He handles the trapfinding and tumbles through battle to be the healbot. (DM's character, so he wanted one who is out of battle usually.)

Batman Wizard
Does what wizards do

Charge-build Clericzilla and Charge-built Druidzilla with Pounce
The melee, sometimes support with spells. Secondary healing/buffing at times.


We do pretty well, although we would be in serious trouble in an AMF zone. Having the different pools of spells to choose fun is definitely needed. Four clerics would lack some of the variety a wizard or druid can give, although I suppose if the players worked together to pick Domains that filled in the spell gaps (Teleport, for example) it might work okay.

Thrawn183
2009-07-15, 04:02 PM
What's wrong with 3 Druids and their animal companions? Twice the targets! Toss in some Summon Nature's Allys and go to town.

Well, I was trying to go with things that would use THF so that they would get the maximum benefit from the single attack granted by the haste spell, but yeah, 3 druids and some animal companions and some nature's allies are gonna woop some booty.

You know, this would actually be the perfect party to counter with a few wizards spamming fireballs.

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 04:16 PM
Well, I was trying to go with things that would use THF so that they would get the maximum benefit from the single attack granted by the haste spell, but yeah, 3 druids and some animal companions and some nature's allies are gonna woop some booty.

You know, this would actually be the perfect party to counter with a few wizards spamming fireballs.

Until someone throws Mass Resist Energy, at any rate (wait, is that a Core-spell? I can never keep them straight. Ah well, Druids can just counter the Fireballs with GDM or RAWRINTHEFACE - I personally prefer the RAWRINTHEFACE counter).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-15, 10:32 PM
Until someone throws Mass Resist Energy, at any rate (wait, is that a Core-spell? I can never keep them straight. Ah well, Druids can just counter the Fireballs with GDM or RAWRINTHEFACE - I personally prefer the RAWRINTHEFACE counter).I direct you to the quote/link in my sig.