PDA

View Full Version : Mystic Theurge



VestigeArcanist
2009-07-14, 09:51 PM
So ok, how can we make it the PrC mystic theurge not totally suck without making it totally broken?

Jack_Simth
2009-07-14, 10:03 PM
1) Reduce the requirements so that you can enter it as a Wizard-1/Cleric-1, or similar (and arrange things so you can't bypass that with clever tricks).
2) Give the PrC a couple of dead levels.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 10:06 PM
Should be able to be entered at Wizard 2/Cleric2, or something like that.

And it should get class features.

Malicte
2009-07-14, 10:14 PM
By using a combination of (highly) questionable rule reading, Precocious Apprentice, Southern Magician, and the human bonus feat to enter it after arcane caster 1/divine caster 1.

Seriously though... I'm not sure there is a way. The concept itself simply does not mesh well with a Vancian casting system. Perhaps in a party without a regular full caster, it might be manageable. Closer to the party in power level, but certainly not good.

VestigeArcanist
2009-07-14, 10:19 PM
Are there any tricks to get into the PrC earlier now? How about we give it simliar requirements to the Ultimate Magus, replacing the spontaneous spellcasting class with a divine class or vice versa? people seem pretty content with the Ultimate Magus, correct?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-14, 10:23 PM
UM also gest class features and a CL boost for the lower CL class.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-14, 11:02 PM
Are there any tricks to get into the PrC earlier now?

There are many, from the ones some consider dubiously legal to ones that obviously work both by rules as written and as intended, according to dev interviews. The OP was asking how to change the class, however, not how to get in.

Oblivious
2009-07-14, 11:16 PM
Should be able to be entered at Wizard 2/Cleric2, or something like that.
This is probably the right point power-wise, but will feel artificial. However,

1) Reduce the requirements so that you can enter it as a Wizard-1/Cleric-1, or similar (and arrange things so you can't bypass that with clever tricks).
2) Give the PrC a couple of dead levels.
If (say) fourth and fifth level only increased caster level for one progression each, it would accomplish the same thing without feeling artificial.

tyckspoon
2009-07-14, 11:30 PM
This is probably the right point power-wise, but will feel artificial. However,

If (say) fourth and fifth level only increased caster level for one progression each, it would accomplish the same thing without feeling artificial.

Skill ranks are the usual D&D means of enforcing a hard level cap, if desired; if you want to make Mystic Theurge accessible at 5th level, you might make the prereqs something like "able to cast 1st level Divine spells. Able to cast 1st level Arcane spells. 7 ranks Spellcraft." That can be met with any desired combination of arcane and divine classes; there's nothing other than personal aesthetics that really demands the arcane and divine portions of the entry be equal.

Starbuck_II
2009-07-14, 11:34 PM
Should be able to be entered at Wizard 2/Cleric2, or something like that.

And it should get class features.

Something like pathfinders Mystic Theurge but better, right? (yes they gave it class features).

They gave it combine spell and spell synthesis (1/day).
Combine spell lets them cast spells with the other class (like Cleric can prepare the Wizard's Glitterdust in his 2nd level Cleric slot). Starts with 1st and every 2 levels increases what can cast by +1.

Synthesis lets you use same action to cast another spell. Target affected by both get -2 save and caster gets +2 to overcome SR.

Other than the low useage a day it is pretty neat.

I'd redo Synthesis to starts at 4th and be 1/day, and every 2 levels thereafter. You'd have 4 at 10th (which is decent).

To fill up 2nd level's dead level maybe some bonus feat from a list or something.

Geomancer is another attempt to do Mystic Theurge as you cast both spells using same casting stat.

sofawall
2009-07-14, 11:42 PM
Geomancer, however, only progresses one class.

ericgrau
2009-07-15, 12:13 AM
Just accept that it's less powerful but more versatile? But if that's not enough, lowering the pre-req levels would do it, as mentioned. Just as long as the power/versatility trade-off is still there and you don't get something for hardly anything lost. I mean, we have seen Tsukiko take advantage of having many and varied spell slots quite a bit now.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-15, 12:18 AM
How do you do that, Malicte? (I'd say that using Precocious Apprentice for that is fair enough due to it being designed to give you a level 2 spell.)

Yahzi
2009-07-15, 01:18 AM
So ok, how can we make it the PrC mystic theurge not totally suck without making it totally broken?
Clerics and Wizards are already broken, by themselves.

Kyeudo
2009-07-15, 01:38 AM
Just accept that it's less powerful but more versatile? But if that's not enough, lowering the pre-req levels would do it, as mentioned. Just as long as the power/versatility trade-off is still there and you don't get something for hardly anything lost. I mean, we have seen Tsukiko take advantage of having many and varied spell slots quite a bit now.

They are not truly more versatile. Wizards and Clerics have ways of duplicating each others best tricks without much work (in Core), so any given Cleric slot can usually do as well as any given Wizard slot for a given task. A Mystic Theruge only excells in situations where casting spells constantly throughout the day is a necessity, as they do have more stamina than normal, but they lack oomph when it comes to actually completing any task.

Now, taking a Wizard or Cleric down a peg can be a good idea for some campaigns, but if you want to make the PrC not a power sink, then you need to give it class features that make its divine and arcane spells truly work together, which is apparently what Pathfinder did.

Malicte
2009-07-15, 06:58 AM
How do you do that, Malicte? (I'd say that using Precocious Apprentice for that is fair enough due to it being designed to give you a level 2 spell.)

As a first level arcane caster of any stripe, you can of course take Precocious Apprentice to gain one second level slot per day. Using Southern Magician, which is a FR regional feat, you can, iirc, cast your arcane spells as divine and your divine spells as arcane. I know there's a limit on it, but I can't recall what it is and I'm away from my books. Southern Magician therefor lets you cast that 2nd level spell from precocious apprentice as a divine spell, thus qualifying you in the most technical sense. That is, you can, as a first level arcane caster, cast both 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells.

Of course, you'd need to actually pick up a divine casting class to have MT progress. There is also the skill rank requirement (that I completely forgot in my above post), and there's really no way around that that I am aware of. Since both skills required are 6 ranks, though, I guess you'd get in after level 3.

There is another problem, too: With early-entry tricks, you run out of dual-progression levels before 20, and there isn't another MT class that I am aware of. You could of course go Wizard/Druid into Arcane Hierophant, which dual-progress both, and then into MT when those levels run out, but that requires a higher level of druid, iirc.

arkol
2009-07-15, 07:04 AM
Take a look at Arcane Hierophant. You can only enter at lvl8 (without any odd stuff) and it still is considered better then Thurge...

Jack_Simth
2009-07-15, 07:13 AM
As a first level arcane caster of any stripe, you can of course take Precocious Apprentice to gain one second level slot per day. Using Southern Magician, which is a FR regional feat, you can, iirc, cast your arcane spells as divine and your divine spells as arcane. I know there's a limit on it, but I can't recall what it is and I'm away from my books. Southern Magician therefor lets you cast that 2nd level spell from precocious apprentice as a divine spell, thus qualifying you in the most technical sense. That is, you can, as a first level arcane caster, cast both 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells.

Of course, you'd need to actually pick up a divine casting class to have MT progress. There is also the skill rank requirement (that I completely forgot in my above post), and there's really no way around that that I am aware of. Since both skills required are 6 ranks, though, I guess you'd get in after level 3.

There is another problem, too: With early-entry tricks, you run out of dual-progression levels before 20, and there isn't another MT class that I am aware of. You could of course go Wizard/Druid into Arcane Hierophant, which dual-progress both, and then into MT when those levels run out, but that requires a higher level of druid, iirc.
Using the Precocious Apprentice early entry trick, you could make a Wizard-1/Druid-3/Mystic Theurge-6/Arcane Heirophant-10. Cast as a Druid-19 and a Wizard-17. Only reason for Druid-3 is the "Trackless Step class feature" requirement of Arcane Heirophant. The reason for the six levels of Mystic Theurge is the BAB requirement of Arcane Heirophant.

But yes - as-is, the Mystic Theurge is... considerably less than optimal in the vast majority of circumstances.

evildmguy
2009-07-15, 07:18 AM
I am confused.

Can the OP explain to me what is broken about the MT in the first place that they want to see changed? I had a campaign where one guy was a MT and he loved it! He thought it was great.

So, I am not sure why it's broken. (And, yes, there are the arguments about which class is broken or not but I am specifically curious about the thoughts of the MT.)

Thanks!

edg

Roc Ness
2009-07-15, 07:49 AM
I'm not sure myself but I presume it to be that neither will reach 9th level spellcasting.

I personally don't know what the fuss about ninth level spellcasting is, eigth level seems just as good and as two classes you can almost never run out of spells.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 07:51 AM
Can the OP explain to me what is broken about the MT in the first place that they want to see changed?

Just to clarify, he doesn't think it's broken now; he said he wants to "make...mystic theurge not totally suck without making it totally broken," emphasis mine--basically, he wants to make it worthwhile without powering it up too far.

It "totally sucks," to use his words, because spells scale exponentially. Having 2X level Y spells is not the same as having X level Y+1 spells; you can accomplish more with one fireball, slow, or fly than you can accomplish with two scorching rays, fog clouds, or levitates. If you never run out of spells, but you require more spells to end a combat, then you're running a net loss.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-15, 07:51 AM
You might make it more interesting by skewing it to favor the weaker spontaneous casting classes. So you could enter MT with Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1, but with Wizard or Cleric you would need 3 levels each. That would change the way the class works quite nicely, I think.

Zeta Kai
2009-07-15, 08:22 AM
A prestige class should not be available to characters with less than 5 class levels. It's a PRESTIGE class for a reason: they are meant to be prestigeous. If you can get in at level three, then there's nothing special about entry. If you wanna fix the class, then tweak the class's features. But lowering the requirements for entry below ECL5 is not a balanced solution.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 08:43 AM
A prestige class should not be available to characters with less than 5 class levels. It's a PRESTIGE class for a reason: they are meant to be prestigeous. If you can get in at level three, then there's nothing special about entry. If you wanna fix the class, then tweak the class's features. But lowering the requirements for entry below ECL5 is not a balanced solution.

1) This was originally so, but by the second Complete book or thereabouts they were more advanced classes than "prestige" classes. There have been at least a handful of PrCs, maybe more, written that allow entry between 2nd and 4th level without any trickery (the most infamous of which being the Survivor, which you can get with Commoner 1, I believe).

2) Many PrC concepts are not prestigious at all. You need to be 5th level to kill someone well (Assassin)? You need to be 5th level to fence (Duelist)? You need to be 5th level to block a hallway (Dwarven Defender)? You need to be 5th level to be a CG paladin (Holy Liberator)? You need to be 5th level to look for an island (Seeker of the Misty Isle)? And so on and so forth; they've gotten better about making PrCs actually prestigious in later books (or at least using concepts that might feasibly require a lot of experience), but many PrCs could just as easily be a set of feats or alternate class features.

Leewei
2009-07-15, 08:44 AM
Mystic Theurges are actually pretty nice on their own. It's only when you put them together with the high-powered pure spellcasting classes that they have trouble. A game I'm running currently has a Sorceror-Cleric-Mystic Theurge, a Monk, a Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker, a Bard, and a Barbarian. The Mystic Theurge really shines.

The Mystic Theurge isn't optimal compared to other classes, however as Tsukiko has said, they go to sleep at night with more spells than other casters start the day with.

The challenge for this class is that it takes actions to cast all those spells, and that two fourth level spells when combined rarely equal a single sixth level spell. They also have a touch of MAD. Strategic feat selection can help with this. Practiced Spellcaster is considered a staple. Quickened Spell (and Rapid Metamagic for spontaneous casters) is also very handy.

In my own campaign, I've put in a few spells that are Brd/Clr/Dru/Sor/Wiz that have enhanced effectiveness if the caster has both divine and arcane caster levels. I've also toyed with the idea of allowing MTs to gain the ability to Sudden Empower certain spells by expending an equivalent spell slot of the other type.

aivanther
2009-07-15, 08:48 AM
I personally don't know what the fuss about ninth level spellcasting is, eigth level seems just as good and as two classes you can almost never run out of spells.

Can you say disjunction?

Telonius
2009-07-15, 09:03 AM
So ok, how can we make it the PrC mystic theurge not totally suck without making it totally broken?

Take the Archivist class, cross out the word Archivist wherever it occurs, and write in Mystic Theurge instead. Now it's only nearly-broken.

evildmguy
2009-07-15, 10:52 AM
Just to clarify, he doesn't think it's broken now; he said he wants to "make...mystic theurge not totally suck without making it totally broken," emphasis mine--basically, he wants to make it worthwhile without powering it up too far.

It "totally sucks," to use his words, because spells scale exponentially. Having 2X level Y spells is not the same as having X level Y+1 spells; you can accomplish more with one fireball, slow, or fly than you can accomplish with two scorching rays, fog clouds, or levitates. If you never run out of spells, but you require more spells to end a combat, then you're running a net loss.

Ah, okay that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation!

I never looked at spells that way before but I guess that is true that there is an exponential growth in them. Hmm. It would be a bigger fix but is there a way to fix the spells as a way to fix the MT?

My main thought on that would be to increase damage, duration or whatever for lower level spells as the level gained and current level difference gets to be more. But, that might be more work than necessary.

Again, my player seemed to enjoy his MT and how many spells he had. Wait! My campaign used spell points, such that he could use his "lower level mana" for the higher level spells which do more. Would that help? I know most people don't use that option, though. It was a thought.

Thanks again! Good discussion!

edg

AmberVael
2009-07-15, 11:28 AM
My opinion is that it would be better if the mystic theurge did not actually involve any multiclassing.
That's the problem with it, after all- why it makes it so hard to balance between not powerful enough and overpowered. The mystic theurge, as is, either prevents someone from gaining spells that someone of their level should have, or (if changed to progress both at the same level as someone of comparable level) completely overpowers them by giving them access to spells of two lists.

My solution, therefore, is to look towards things like Expanded Knowledge features, Arcane Disciple, bonus Domains, and the Rainbow Servant Capstone. These are not always implemented well, but they point towards a far better method than Mystic theurge.

Instead of making Mystic Theurge a dual progression class, instead make it a class to advance a divine or arcane spellcasting class, and allow it limited access to the other spell list- perhaps limit it in spells known from either list, or how many spells per day from the opposite list it can cast. Doing this properly would make a PrC which would be comparable to currently used spellcasting PrCs.
Which is to say, really powerful. But at least it would be on par with its peers.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 11:54 AM
It would be a bigger fix but is there a way to fix the spells as a way to fix the MT?

There are 2,856 spells in 3e currently. Fixing them just for the MT is out of the question.


Wait! My campaign used spell points, such that he could use his "lower level mana" for the higher level spells which do more. Would that help?

Well, if you're using spell points, of course he's going to like it! It's one thing to have two progressions a few levels behind, and entirely another to have a bazillion of your highest spells--2X level Y spells won't make up for X level Y+1 spells, but 4X or 5X certainly might!

PurinaDragonCho
2009-07-15, 11:57 AM
My opinion is that it would be better if the mystic theurge did not actually involve any multiclassing.
That's the problem with it, after all- why it makes it so hard to balance between not powerful enough and overpowered. The mystic theurge, as is, either prevents someone from gaining spells that someone of their level should have, or (if changed to progress both at the same level as someone of comparable level) completely overpowers them by giving them access to spells of two lists.

[snip]



The Archivist can cast any cleric, druid, paladin, ranger or adept spell, and through domain spells and other methods, can get most of the good wizard spells and some bard spells to boot... even assuming you don't use cheesy methods like divine bards or warlock cohorts. It essentially is what you're describing, I think.

quick_comment
2009-07-15, 12:02 PM
Speaking of MT, the cerebremancer is exactly the same as a psionic/arcane MT. Because of the way power points work, 9th level powers arent actually much better than an augmented 8th level power. Does Cerebremancer still suck? (It requires 2nd level arcane spells, 2nd level powers and 6 ranks in knowledge arcana and psionics. Advances manifesting and arcane casting at each level)

AmberVael
2009-07-15, 12:21 PM
The Archivist can cast any cleric, druid, paladin, ranger or adept spell, and through domain spells and other methods, can get most of the good wizard spells and some bard spells to boot... even assuming you don't use cheesy methods like divine bards or warlock cohorts. It essentially is what you're describing, I think.

Well... yeah, kinda. But a lot of that is really quite questionable (not necessarily mechanically) and unreliable (how are you going to find clerics with those domains who can scribe scrolls (clerics don't get Scribe Scroll for free you know) of the spells you're interested in that are ALSO willing to give them up? You think that's going to be easy?)

I'm talking about something less convoluted.

PurinaDragonCho
2009-07-15, 12:33 PM
Well... yeah, kinda. But a lot of that is really quite questionable (not necessarily mechanically) and unreliable (how are you going to find clerics with those domains who can scribe scrolls (clerics don't get Scribe Scroll for free you know) of the spells you're interested in that are ALSO willing to give them up? You think that's going to be easy?)

I'm talking about something less convoluted.


Not to sidetrack the thread - but two people can work together to create a scroll, by the rules. And yes, in game, I have done favors for people to get them to give me access to their spells. Convincing a cleric with the good domain to sell you a scroll of Holy Smite when you're going after a devil bent on destroying all of creation isn't that difficult, for example. Having to work to get access to spells makes it that much more interesting and rewarding to get them.

Anyway - depends on your DM. But that isn't the point of the thread. We can agree to disagree on this.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 12:41 PM
Does Cerebremancer still suck?

Not as much as MT, though the lack of class features does hurt.

1) Psions use Int and wilders use Cha, so going wizard/psion or sorcerer/wilder cuts down on MAD, whereas the MT requires both Int and Wis for casting.

2) Psionics provides limited self-healing and plenty of buffing, which is a lot of what MT is good for (divine for heals and buffs, arcane for offense and utility), and overlaps just enough with arcane to either cover blasting and such for a wizard to let him prepare more utility spells or cover effects for a sorcerer that his limited spells known don't let him do.

AmberVael
2009-07-15, 12:48 PM
Anyway - depends on your DM. But that isn't the point of the thread. We can agree to disagree on this.

DM and Setting. DM might be willing to let you do it most of the time- could be that there isn't an abundance of clerics in the setting they're using though.

What we can agree on, at least, is that an Archivist is going to have a focus on divine spells, or at least will be casting spells classified as divine.

Even if you accept an Archivist as sort of a pseudo divine mystic theurge, it would be nice to have one for the other side, yes?

PurinaDragonCho
2009-07-15, 04:37 PM
DM and Setting. DM might be willing to let you do it most of the time- could be that there isn't an abundance of clerics in the setting they're using though.

What we can agree on, at least, is that an Archivist is going to have a focus on divine spells, or at least will be casting spells classified as divine.

Even if you accept an Archivist as sort of a pseudo divine mystic theurge, it would be nice to have one for the other side, yes?

Divine spells, yes - but you can still get identify, fly, teleport, dimension door, lightning bolt, web, scorching ray, grease, illusion spells, etc. LOTS of wizard spells - which, as divine spells, you can cast in armor.

I think it's easier to find a DM that will allow you to reasonably play a published class than it is to find one that will let you make a substantial upgrade to a published prestige class.

I'd love to play a Mystic Theurge, but as it is, I think the class is totally borked. Losing 2 caster levels on one side, instead of 3, would help. Class features would help. Advancing turning and/or familiar might help, ASF reduction might help... in other words, a total rewrite and major power boost. Stuff that usually makes a DM scared.

Just my opinion, based on the groups I play with. I've had no problem playing an archivist and getting lots of great spells. Asking one of the DMs I know to let me totally rewrite a PrC - one would probably be okay with it. The rest would probably not allow it. And I don't think I'd blame them.

ericgrau
2009-07-15, 08:52 PM
They are not truly more versatile. Wizards and Clerics have ways of duplicating each others best tricks without much work (in Core), so any given Cleric slot can usually do as well as any given Wizard slot for a given task. A Mystic Theruge only excells in situations where casting spells constantly throughout the day is a necessity, as they do have more stamina than normal, but they lack oomph when it comes to actually completing any task.

Now, taking a Wizard or Cleric down a peg can be a good idea for some campaigns, but if you want to make the PrC not a power sink, then you need to give it class features that make its divine and arcane spells truly work together, which is apparently what Pathfinder did.

Last I checked it was well agreed that wizards were significantly more powerful than clerics at casting. If clerics could cast as well as wizards, then with everything else they'd be more powerful. Plus having more spell slots lets you have more different spells. Claiming you have X spell prepared every time someone throws a challenge at you is fine for theoretical discussions (well, not really, but people do it anyway), but you can't be prepared for multiple different things without having enough spell slots.



The Mystic Theurge isn't optimal compared to other classes, however as Tsukiko has said, they go to sleep at night with more spells than other casters start the day with.

The challenge for this class is that it takes actions to cast all those spells, and that two fourth level spells when combined rarely equal a single sixth level spell.

Indeed. My typical solution for extra spell slots is to cast as many outside of combat as possible. That can be long lasting buffs, commonly used utility spells that you know you'll use everyday (scouting spells perhaps?), etc. Havning access to scrolls & wands from two spell lists is nice too.

quick_comment
2009-07-15, 09:25 PM
Mystic Theurges really shine at epic levels though, where the delayed spell access doesnt matter and they get access to auto quicken and multispell.

aivanther
2009-07-15, 09:38 PM
Gestalt MT would work: put it in one gestalt for caster progression, then grab another PrC that gets no progression but interesting class abilities (Dragon Disciple as an example).

Flickerdart
2009-07-15, 09:50 PM
Mystic Theurges really shine at epic levels though, where the delayed spell access doesnt matter and they get access to auto quicken and multispell.
Except Epic MT sucks even worse than normal MT.

Thrawn183
2009-07-15, 11:36 PM
Gestalt MT would work: put it in one gestalt for caster progression, then grab another PrC that gets no progression but interesting class abilities (Dragon Disciple as an example).

I'm pretty sure you're explicitly not supposed to use MT and gestalt.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-15, 11:52 PM
I'm pretty sure you're explicitly not supposed to use MT and gestalt.

It's suggested you not do that, but it's left up to the DM--in a higher-powered gestalt (redundant, I know), a wizard/archivist/mystic theurge//psion/sorcerer/cerebremancer might not be all that much.

Quietus
2009-07-15, 11:52 PM
I'd love to play a Mystic Theurge, but as it is, I think the class is totally borked. Losing 2 caster levels on one side, instead of 3, would help. Class features would help. Advancing turning and/or familiar might help, ASF reduction might help... in other words, a total rewrite and major power boost. Stuff that usually makes a DM scared.

Personally, I don't really think I'd have a problem with a player coming to me and asking if they could continue to advance their Familiar and their Turning abilities alongside the normal MT progression. It's not gonna break anything to let them essentially turn undead as a Paladin (and acts as a disincentive to Divine Metamagic, since it'll be strong enough to count for something!), nor will higher-level Familiar abilities quickly result in breaking the game into pieces.



It's suggested you not do that, but it's left up to the DM--in a higher-powered gestalt (redundant, I know), a wizard/archivist/mystic theurge//psion/sorcerer/cerebremancer might not be all that much.

Oh man, that'd be a blast; You'd barely have to refresh spells on a daily basis, you'd have so many!

Roland St. Jude
2009-07-16, 08:35 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread has been significantly pruned. Please keep it civil in here.

FMArthur
2009-07-16, 09:27 PM
This is no longer the argument I wanted to reply to. :smallfrown:

Anyway, I think the whole thing should just be a feat or ACF.

Feat:
Confused Caster
What the hell is this? Some goddamn archivist messed up my spellbook!
Prerequisites: 2 levels in an arcane casting class, 2 levels in a divine spellcasting class. Does not have Practiced Spellcaster.
Benefit: Your spell list for one of the spellcasting classes you used to qualify for this feat now includes the spell list of the other spellcasting class you used for it.

The big problems with MT are being behind by up to two spell levels, and that you have no good paths to take after MT is done. If you reduce the entry requirements to only lose 1 spell level, it does actually become quite powerful because of the number of spells it has. My feat solves these problems in my games.

Indon
2009-07-16, 09:41 PM
As evildmguy notes, spell points make this class significantly more potent.

But even with no modification, it's a high tier 3/low tier 2 character build option anyway - it's already more powerful than the majority of character options in the game, and is only weak compared to other pure casters. Does it really need a major tweak that could risk making it Artificer Spellcasting 2: Everything you can do and twice as much too?

quick_comment
2009-07-16, 09:41 PM
Except Epic MT sucks even worse than normal MT.

I dont mean taking epic MT. Thats utterly worthless. But 10 levels of regular MT isnt so bad when you are level 25, because you still get 9th level spells.

Indon
2009-07-16, 09:42 PM
I dont mean taking epic MT. Thats utterly worthless. But 10 levels of regular MT isnt so bad when you are level 25, because you still get 9th level spells.

Is there any meaningful difference between arcane and divine epic casting?

DragoonWraith
2009-07-16, 09:45 PM
Why doesn't epic Mystic Theurge increase both? When I was thinking about MT, the first thing to come to mind is "this sucks at 7 (Wiz 3, Clr 3, MT 1 = Wiz 4 + Clr 4), and even at 17 (Wiz 3, Clr 3, MT 10 = Wiz 13 + Clr 13), but might work by the time you got to, say, 24 (Wiz 3, Clr 3, MT 17 = Wiz 20 + Clr 20). The three levels lost mean less later. But instead it doesn't work at all. And it really, mostly, just doesn't seem unreasonable to take MT for 17 levels. Don't know what it'd do after that, but you see what I mean.

quick_comment
2009-07-16, 09:49 PM
Is there any meaningful difference between arcane and divine epic casting?


Arcane casters dont get miracle or some other nifty divine spells, like sheltered vitality, favor of the matyr, etc.

Stormthorn
2009-07-16, 09:57 PM
A prestige class should not be available to characters with less than 5 class levels. It's a PRESTIGE class for a reason: they are meant to be prestigeous. If you can get in at level three, then there's nothing special about entry. If you wanna fix the class, then tweak the class's features. But lowering the requirements for entry below ECL5 is not a balanced solution.

Seconded.

I think giving it some class features to make its metamagic better would help overcome the lower power spells at any given level.


Why doesn't epic Mystic Theurge increase both? When I was thinking about MT, the first thing to come to mind is "this sucks at 7 (Wiz 3, Clr 3, MT 1 = Wiz 4 + Clr 4), and even at 17 (Wiz 3, Clr 3, MT 10 = Wiz 13 + Clr 13), but might work by the time you got to, say, 24 (Wiz 3, Clr 3, MT 17 = Wiz 20 + Clr 20). The three levels lost mean less later. But instead it doesn't work at all. And it really, mostly, just doesn't seem unreasonable to take MT for 17 levels. Don't know what it'd do after that, but you see what I mean.

Keep in mind that a lot of things in DnD start to break down at epic levels. It wasnt initaly designed to be played at that level of power. Thats why the SRD lists epic spells that involve rolling 300 die.

dragonfan6490
2009-07-16, 10:31 PM
Honestly, and I feel horrible for this, but the only time that I took Mystic Theurge, it was as a one level dip, then go to a class like Geomancer and use MT as my spellcasting class, thus getting the progression of both my arcane and divine spellcasting class and class features.

*Note: This was a fairly liberal reading of the rules and most definitely and exploitation. I'm not ordinarily one to do this, but it made sense at the time and now, as a DM, anytime a player of mine wants to go for Geomancer or another PrC that progresses one or the other or arcane/divine, I recomend the one level dip.

GoatToucher
2009-07-16, 11:40 PM
Okay, call me Dr. Crazypants, but consider this for a moment:

Cleric 3/Wizard 7/MT 10.

In 20 levels you get thirteen levels of divine casting (topping you out at a 7th level spell) and 17 levels of arcane casting (giving you the all important 9th level spell). Reverse this for your flavor preference.

What isn't pretty freaking sweet about that?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-16, 11:46 PM
Okay, call me Dr. Crazypants, but consider this for a moment:

Cleric 3/Wizard 7/MT 10.

In 20 levels you get thirteen levels of divine casting (topping you out at a 7th level spell) and 17 levels of arcane casting (giving you the all important 9th level spell). Reverse this for your flavor preference.

What isn't pretty freaking sweet about that?Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT 9, that's what. ECL 16, but only 6th level spells. The game does not begin at 20, and at every level below that, MTs are a full spell level behind. Half the time, they're behind by 2. Look at how much Sorcerer is hated for being one spell level behind half the time, that's wht MT is at best.

GoatToucher
2009-07-16, 11:53 PM
Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT 9, that's what. ECL 16 [sic], but only 6th level spells. The game does not begin at 20, and at every level below that, MTs are a full spell level behind. Half the time, they're behind by 2. Look at how much Sorcerer is hated for being one spell level behind half the time, that's wht MT is at best.

The game doesn't begin at level 15 either, but still...

But the "saving grace" of the sorcerer is the fact that he gets (a couple) more spells. Wouldn't having 31 (plus wis bonus) divine spells compensate for being a level down?

[EDIT] Going back to the C3/W7/MT10 example, the CL 17 wizard has 6 fewer spells than the CL20 wizard, and trades them for, again, 31+ Divine spells (with spontaneous healing), topping off at 7th. This is a bad deal?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-17, 12:02 AM
The game doesn't begin at level 15 either, but still...Pick a level. Other than levels 1-4, and level 20, you're always at least a spell level behind.
But the "saving grace" of the sorcerer is the fact that he gets (a couple) more spells. Wouldn't having 31 (plus wis bonus) divine spells compensate for being a level down?Not really. The issue quickly becomes the action economy. An 11th level MT(or any other level, just change the numbers around) can cast one 4th level spell a round. An 11th level Wizard can cast one 6th level spell a round. Yes, the MT can go for longer, but the higher level spells usually mean the fights last a shorter amount of time, meaning the caster uses less spells(both on ending the fight, and on recovery afterwards).

GoatToucher
2009-07-17, 12:15 AM
Pick a level. Other than levels 1-4, and level 20, you're always at least a spell level behind.

Granted.


Not really. The issue quickly becomes the action economy. An 11th level MT(or any other level, just change the numbers around) can cast one 4th level spell a round. An 11th level Wizard can cast one 6th level spell a round. Yes, the MT can go for longer, but the higher level spells usually mean the fights last a shorter amount of time, meaning the caster uses less spells(both on ending the fight, and on recovery afterwards).

I dunno. If you consider the wizard a one man show, your argument holds water. If you consider the MT in the example to be a primary arcane and back up divine (with a full cleric in the party as well) working in concert with assorted other classes, it starts to break down. All that extra healing means the rest of the party can keep going that much longer, fighting that much better with that many more buffs. That 11th level wizard only has three spells topping what the MT can cast. Do those three spells make up for all the support the Mt can provide between battles?

Saph
2009-07-17, 12:16 AM
Well, Mystic Theurge isn't necessarily terrible.

I used it in my second Test of Spite character. Beguiler/Cloistered Cleric/Mystic Theurge. It made for quite a nice spell duellist. He couldn't do much damage, but he could shut down just about anything the other guy tried to do.

- Saph

quick_comment
2009-07-17, 01:01 AM
Honestly, and I feel horrible for this, but the only time that I took Mystic Theurge, it was as a one level dip, then go to a class like Geomancer and use MT as my spellcasting class, thus getting the progression of both my arcane and divine spellcasting class and class features.

*Note: This was a fairly liberal reading of the rules and most definitely and exploitation. I'm not ordinarily one to do this, but it made sense at the time and now, as a DM, anytime a player of mine wants to go for Geomancer or another PrC that progresses one or the other or arcane/divine, I recomend the one level dip.

Its actually completely contrary to the rules. Mystic theurge is not a class that grants spellcasting. It advances other spellcasting classes.

HamHam
2009-07-17, 01:35 AM
Isn't Mystic Theurge pretty good in Epic because you get twice the Epic spells though?

Cyclocone
2009-07-17, 01:36 AM
The Mystic Theurge isn't optimal compared to other classes, however as Tsukiko has said, they go to sleep at night with more spells than other casters start the day with.

That's actually the main fallacy of the theurge. To Quote Biffoniacus_Furiou:


You're taking a seriously large hit to your ability to cast appropriately high level spells, in exchange for more spells than you'll ever need in a single day. Sure, you may be able to get one of everything you'd ever need, but a great majority of those spell slots just get wasted because you never even use them.


Claiming you have X spell prepared every time someone throws a challenge at you is fine for theoretical discussions (well, not really, but people do it anyway), but you can't be prepared for multiple different things without having enough spell slots.

Except wizards and archivists get scribe scroll for free, which lets them have situational spells on hand without occupying spell slots or having to take suboptimal PrCs.


Last I checked it was well agreed that wizards were significantly more powerful than clerics at casting. If clerics could cast as well as wizards, then with everything else they'd be more powerful.

Last time I checked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117502), many people agreed that wizards and clerics are on about equal footing, because they have access to each others spell lists if they want to.


Speaking of MT, the cerebremancer is exactly the same as a psionic/arcane MT. Because of the way power points work, 9th level powers arent actually much better than an augmented 8th level power. Does Cerebremancer still suck? (It requires 2nd level arcane spells, 2nd level powers and 6 ranks in knowledge arcana and psionics. Advances manifesting and arcane casting at each level)

The Cerebremancer is a special case, since it provides access to two distinctly dissimilar classes, that covers each others weaknesses quite well.
A wizard 7/psion 3/cerebremancer 10 would have access to all the wizards spells and thus not be hindered by the psion's limited knowledge, he would also not be powerless if he lost his spellbook or were in a zone of silence, and unlike wizard/cleric a wizard/psion can be effective as both simultaneously thanks to stuff like schism.
And as has been pointed out, having 9th level powers are not as important to a psion as having decent pp and ML

If you look in Dragon #349, there is also a nice amount of cheesy feats for cerebremancers such as Psiotheurgist, Cannibalize Spell, Cerebremetamagic and Mystic Focus.

Doc Roc
2009-07-17, 02:03 AM
I'm going to vote strongly in favor of:

Early entry builds with MT or AH.
Use of the Cerebremancer in general.
Non-traditional or fast progression classes for dual progression.
EG: Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord.

aivanther
2009-07-17, 09:22 AM
I guess my question regarding True Necromancer is that it seems to solve some of the objections people have, though it loses an extra spell level it does gain a lot of class abilities. It's just a question, never played one, but it does seem to actually gain some advantage over the MT.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-17, 10:14 AM
I guess my question regarding True Necromancer is that it seems to solve some of the objections people have, though it loses an extra spell level it does gain a lot of class abilities. It's just a question, never played one, but it does seem to actually gain some advantage over the MT.

Here's the problem. If you go into MT as arcane 3/divine 3 or later, you're 3 levels behind and will never catch up; the only way to make it worthwhile is to enter early on one or both sides. The TN grants arcane only at level 1 and divine early at level 2, so if you enter early you can start with, say, arcane 2/divine 4 before starting dual progression, and if you don't you are at arcane 4/divine 4 before starting dual progression.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 10:22 AM
Last time I checked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117502), many people agreed that wizards and clerics are on about equal footing, because they have access to each others spell lists if they want to.

My general impression is between the both of you. Wizards have the superior casting abilities by a noticeable amount, but Clerics are more directly survivable, bringing the two classes about equal.

Kyeudo
2009-07-17, 10:41 AM
I guess my question regarding True Necromancer is that it seems to solve some of the objections people have, though it loses an extra spell level it does gain a lot of class abilities. It's just a question, never played one, but it does seem to actually gain some advantage over the MT.

It violates the First Commandment of Optimization: Thou Shalt Not Give Up Caster Levels. Loss of caster levels puts it even further behind the Mystic Theruge, so it can't contribute as a spellcaster in level appropriate ways. Its class features don't even begin to make up for it. Most are just generic "I'm a necromancer, fear me!" abilities that don't actually help a necromancer that much. The more stringent entry requirements also mean you have to commit a greater amount of character resources in order to suck harder. I'd take Mystic Theruge before this monstrosity.

VestigeArcanist
2009-07-17, 06:57 PM
Concerning the "True" Necromancer K points out here http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129 that at level 14, you will be five caster levels behind in both classes. So if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you.

This is a similar problem with the Mystic Theurge, though less of one, since only three levels are loss. Nevertheless the power of a caster is found in his caster levels. Thus it would be best if the PrC prereqs were changed to result in less of a caster level loss, with a changed caster progression and/or additional class features. The best I can think of is an adapted Ultimate Magnus, or an empowered Geomancer, which advances both caster levels instead of one. With that said, I must recheck the requirements for the Geomancer to its feasibility.