making a shadow duplicate party

[gnomas]

the Pcs are going to be fightting a party mde of shadow dupliates of themselves. how should i go about it? exact duplicates? same class different build? opposites? my favourite is same type of class, better build. that way thye will need teamwork because the duplicates will win one on one.

the party:
blaster sorcerer
rogue
dragon shaman
dragonfire adept
CG cleric
fighter

none of them are at all optimized (but the DFA is a little over powered, but we're working on it)

so what do i use as the counter to these guys?

[Anxe]

A load of Vampires is how you counter them.

[Baron Malkar]

blaster sorcerer - Batman Wizard
rogue - Factorum
dragon shaman - Bard (with snowflake wardance and Dragonfire inspiration)
dragonfire adept - Hellfire Warlock
CG cleric - depends upon god but Paladin of Tyranny is all ways good -er- Evil:smalltongue:
fighter - Barbarian or Tome of Battle goodness

[gnomas]

care going into more depth on the bard? which books are those feats in?

im thinking warblade to counter the fighter.

the cleric's god is hakku (wind and travel) from sandstorm

to clarify, they're all level 8 except the sorcerer and rogue who have +1 level adjustments(catfolk)

[Player_Zero]

Errr... Having them fight a party of superior versions of their characters is a sure-fire way to kill them all in an unfair, non level-appropriate encounter.

If you build them around countering their characters they're going to have no chance 'teamwork' or no.

[Baron Malkar]

Snowflake wardance is in Frost burn and turns the bard into a very capable meleer especially when combined with a Harmonizing(MIC) crystal echo blade(Also MIC)

Dragonfire Insperation is in races of the dragon and changes +X to hit and damage to +XD6 energy damage

[Flickerdart]

The duplicates could all have the Shadow or Dark templates, putting their level a little bit behind the PCs, thus making the battle a little bit more fair even if they're designed to be like the PCs but better. Alternately:

blaster sorcerer - Warmage
rogue - Scout
dragon shaman - White Raven Warblade
dragonfire adept - Warlock
CG cleric - Ur-Priest
fighter - Barbarian, but it all really depends on what the Fighter's build is.

[Baron Malkar]

Darnit I should have thought about Warmage and Ur Priest :smalltongue:

[deuxhero]

Here are the ones I have an idea for
blaster sorcerer - Batman Wizard or a Psion/Wilder.
dragon shaman - Ambush Drake (it's a 0 LA dragon on the wizards site) geared for dragon slaying (You have a dragonfire adept, I think the same book has a dragon slayer PRC)
dragonfire adept - Ambush Drake Warlock

edit: Cleric is wind/travel? Prehaps a servant of a god of prisons/captivity?

[Random832]

Errr... Having them fight a party of superior versions of their characters is a sure-fire way to kill them all in an unfair, non level-appropriate encounter.

I got the impression from the original post that he was going to have them fight each shadow duplicate individually (i.e. whole PC party against shadow duplicate of one character, then a later encounter against a shadow duplicate of a different character, etc) - which wouldn't be so level-inappropriate (by the books, it would be exactly level-appropriate for a party of four)

[Eldariel]

I think fighting the opposites is always most flavorful. I like Flickerdart's suggestions. I'd personally go with:


Blaster Sorcerer - Summoner Wizard
Rogue - Scout
Dragon Shaman - Bard/Warblade with Song of the White Raven
Dragonfire Adept - Binder (this one is gonna be oddball either way, but I think Binder is quite close to being the anti-thesis of Dragonfire Adept)
CG Cleric - Ur-Priest or LE Favored Soul
Fighter - Barbarian


Alternatively have them all matched by the aspects of one Druid:

Blaster Sorcerer - Druid's Quickened boom boom blast blast
Rogue - Druid's Spot/Listen & summons' combat capability
Dragon Shaman - Druid's buffs
Dragonfire Adept - Druid's summons' spell-likes
Fighter - Druid's animal companion
Cleric - Druid himself

[Eloel]

blaster sorcerer - dread necromancer (all contrary you could ever want for blasting)
rogue - druid that goes around -CROWDED- (opposed to rogue). Also, high spot-listen
dragon shaman - the dragon slayer PRC that had extra SA against dragons. Not optimized, but opposite. Next best would have been Marshal, same-ish abilities different fluff.
dragonfire adept - warlock (invocations, at-will smackdowns, and ebil)
CG cleric - ur-priest, hands down
fighter - (assuming it's the stereotype'd heavy-armor big-sword fighter) Monk

Lessons (if 1 by 1)
Henchmen > Direct Damage
Brute Force > Stealth
Dragons are good chunks of XP
Demons > Dragons
Self-Containment > Need to worship
Free Smackdown > Need for weapons


Send them over 1 by 1, make them talk with their counterpart, advice them on how they're superior, smack him with a pre-plan (that shows how his style is 'superior'), and let the rest of the party fight the evil guy.

[quick_comment]

Your blaster mage has a level adjustment? :smalleek:

[gnomas]

right now im thinking fight em all at once, but i have a month to plan. maybe ill make the room really big and complex...or cage them with their rival and then release them for periods...too much?

i was going to do the whole, "you, but better" thing if only so they understood they should ask me about builds more (i may not be as good at it as a lot of people on the boards but im better than them). im hesitant now, this party has a knack for fantastic luckiness, but none of them have what you might call a "build".

[shadow_archmagi]

Why would you duplicate me, much less make it the theme of a party?

[gnomas]

last weeks theme was speed talking, so this seemed the next logical step.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

There are many ways to make an "opposite". The fighters opposite can be a barbarian, a duelist, a psychic warrior, a shapshifting druid, etc.

However, one thing to consider is how the shadow party is going to fight the pcs.

A 6 on 6 fight can get complicated with lots of pcs and npcs fighting tactically not just facing off one on one. In such a tactical fight, the "opposite" characteristic may be lost. Since you know your players tactics, you probably know what they would try if they met a party of another 6 and develop counters that show off the opposite" characteristics of the shadow party.

Another way to do this is to have the two parties meet in a non-combat situation first. That way even if the melee does not show off the "opposite" characteristic directly, the players can understand that they were facing a party of mirror opposites.

Or, you could simply seperate the fight into two or more smaller fights, say fighter, cleric and blaster rogue against their opposites and the other three against their opposites. In the smaller encounters it is easier for opposites to directly match up, for ex fighter vs shadow fighter. Or if the 3 on 3 fight does not break up to smaller 1 on 1 fights, because there are only 3 characters on each fight, it is easier for the players to realize that the other 3 characters have the opposite roles.

Once you have established that, and hopefully the opposites have survived, you can then have the 6 on 6 melee.

That brings the issue of the shadow party's survivability. The shadow party should hit and run on the first encounter and should be able to survive the first encounter. So for ex, if you pick a wizard to mirror the sorcerer, you have to be careful the wizard does not get pounced on by your fighter or rogue at close range. Similarly, if you pick a shadow barbarian as the mirror for the figher, the barbarian has to be able to slip away as easily as the shadow rogue and shadow caster.

As was stated by someone else, if the opposites are the same level but better built, then the pcs will have a really hard time just surviving. I agree with Flickerdart with adding a template like the Shadow template. That will lower the class levels of the shadow party making them less deadly. It also gives them advantages in certain situations like for ex darkness (advanatges which the party can negate if prepared). It gives them capabilities to slip away when needed (plane shift or total concealment, both again which a prepared party can negate). And it ties the shadow party thematically.

[Berserk Monk]

If I may paraphrase Homestar Runner:

"Aw man, Shadow NPCs. Hey guys, let's dip the main characters in a vat of ink and make you fight them before you get to the end boss!"

For the fighter, I'd go barbarian or ranger.
The cleric, well that's simple: LE cleric.

I'd make all the NPCs drow.

[Thrawn183]

the party:
blaster sorcerer --> warmage
rogue --> ninja
dragon shaman --> samurai
dragonfire adept --> warlock
CG cleric --> LE or CE cleric (druid might work, or favored soul)
fighter --> barbarian (could work with knight depending on build)

[gnomas]

this shadow template intrigues me, where is it? the shadow party aren't so much actual people as they are dark spirits taking forms inspired by the people the are fighting.

the party has very unbalanced stats atm, but since we've reached the end of a story arc i'm making them redo the characters with point by. (i am never letting these people roll for stats again btw)

[Irreverent Fool]

Even without the shadow template, most standard races have 'evil' or 'opposite' versions. Dwarves have Duergar, Elves have Drow, Orcs have Sharakim, Humans have some evil version (I forget the name and book but they're identical to humans mechanically except they have a specific list of bonus feats instead of just any). These could be useful.

I saw your original post and thought Ice Assassins, but I guess that would be boring.

obnoxious
sig

[Baron Malkar]

...Humans have some evil version (I forget the name and book but they're identical to humans mechanically except they have a specific list of bonus feats instead of just any)...

BOVD

They are named Vashar.

[Rhydeble]

Do you just want a party of enemy's that is like them but sort of their opposites? Or do you want to match them person by person?

If the second, then there's a great opportunity for a sort of test in wich they have to conquer their own flaws. For example, the blaster Sorcerer needs to fight something that has great protection against blasting, thus the sorcerer needs to think of a different way to defeat him. Thus the rogue will have to fight something that knows where he/she is and is thus forced to overcome the weakness of only being able to fight sneakily.
For such a character specific challenge, I think it might be appropriate to make the shadow duplicate's extremely effective against the players current strategy's, but artificially weak if they try something different.

[gnomas]

im considering making the party fight their duplicate 1v1 inside their own mind first, then have the dupliocates manifest as real creatures for a group battle.

at first i was going for, "same type of character but different build" and i was planning on making the duplicates better built. now im thinking maybe i should make them equal power level but resistant to the usual tactics of the party.

what book is this dark or shadow template thing in?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

im considering making the party fight their duplicate 1v1 inside their own mind first, then have the dupliocates manifest as real creatures for a group battle.

That's not a bad idea.

In the "dream" fight, it does not have to matter that one or the other characters can't get away or dies. So for ex, you don't necessarily have to build a fighter that can escape by some magical or supernatural means.

You may also want to have the "dream" fight have some "real" world consequences. For ex, if a PC loses the fight he might be considered to have been the victim of a nightmare spell and suffer 1d10 points of damage, fatigue, and the inability to regain arcane spells for the next 24 hours.


what book is this dark or shadow template thing in?
You can look it up here http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf

[gnomas]

thanks for the link! maybe i should do the whole fight as a "dream", or just part?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

thanks for the link! maybe i should do the whole fight as a "dream", or just part?

Part. Because otherwise players feel "cheated" if there aren't "real" consequences.

[Pika...]

This is actually one of the reasons I have players make me an exact copy of their character sheets at game start, and then update them each level.

Also, you might want to make them at least the same level. I'd say even a bit higher. Remember, all of them are fighting just you, and they are quite experienced with their own characters. You are not, and have to simultaneously use all seven of them to the same standard of each of them using their own at once.

Also, I would simply use identical copies. More balanced for both sides, and less work for the DM (aka you).

[gnomas]

checked out the shadow template...i like it, but there's a +3 lvl adjustment.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

checked out the shadow template...i like it, but there's a +3 lvl adjustment.

Yeah don't worry too much about that. Make the npcs about 1 level lower (or 2 levels lower for casters if you need them to drop a spell level).

The template does not make the npcs more lethal per se (ECL +3 but CR +1). Esentially, it only makes them very stealthy and have one special defensive ability (+2 on saves, DR 5/magic, fast healing 2, evasion, mirror image 1/day or plane shift 1/day). The stealthyness and escape abilities can be countered in various ways by the party. The defensive abilities make the npcs harder to kill. And both of these are what you want. But they don't make the npcs do more damage or cast spells which the party can't handle.

So for ex, if you make the blaster sorcerer fight a shadow warmage (as someone else suggested) as his opposite in the dream and the shadow warmage has evasion, high dex and lightning reflexes then the blaster sorcerer will have a hard time againt the warmage even if the warmage can only cast spells of one level lower.

Or for ex, if you make the fighter fight shadow barbarian (as someone else suggested) as his opposite in the dream and the shadow barbarian has plane shift for escape, then he's not really any more deadly in a straight up fight. If he has mirror image (which can also be used to help escape) or fast healing 2 then he is a little tougher and more frustrating for the fighter to kill in the fight but he does no more damage per round. (Other abilities add nothing of value to the shadow barbarian.) That is, for the fighter to beat the shadow barbarian it will take him a little longer unless he uses some kind of counter. So maybe the fighter will be forced to use some of those feats he has like combat expertise or in the group fight one of the PC casters can dispel the mirror images or whatever. All you need to do is make a rough estimate of of the damage done by the fighter and shadow barbaria per round and divide the HP totals to see how tough the fight will be for the fighter. If it's too tough, and I think a 50/50 would be too tough, reduce the barbarian's level by 1 (or more if you need too - the fighter should have about a 1 round "edge" IMHO).

The other good thing about templates is that they make the lower level shadows npcs tougher so that you don't hand over that much loot when the PCs finally defeat them...if you don't add the LA to determine WBL :)

Edit: And since your first 1 on 1 fights are "dream" encounters, you can use the ecounters to test how effective your shadow npcs are. If they're too easy, toughen them up. If they're too tough, delay the final fight until the PCs level or make sidetreks to get stuff that they need to beat the shadow npcs.

[Kol Korran]

may i suggest a different route, and possibly a more memorable one? it takes quite a bit of creativity, but it think it will be worth it. since you're using shadow duplicates, which are magic creations, theninstead of just making a party of "by the rules" PCs, (which are a tad boring i might say), why not make each duplicate a methaphoric representation of the character that faces them, with powers directly related.

this is a bit vague, but i did a similar thing with a party of mine. they were adventuing in a shard of a nightmare realm, and met distorted representations ofthemselves. how did i handle this? well, i took what i knew of the characters, and used this.

1) the duskblade- this guy was the self appointed leader of the party, which used to load up on spells. he and his sword were sort of linked, a singular wweapon which he considered part of himself. he usually stalled cast spells to boost his damage output, and lashed out.

he met "the living blade" (i had a better name but i forgot it). this was a wavy insubstantial creature, wielding spirit spiked chains. it attacked the duskbalde, to disarm him, but instead of dropping it i made it grab it, becoming more real (and more vulnerable). it now used the duskblade sword against him! also, whenever the duskblade cast a spell, the phantom would have a certain chance (i think 50%) to get the magic transfered to his (newly acquired) sword.

2) the poisondusk lizardman rogue/barbarian- this was a belkar sort of character- he was ruthless, sadistic, enjoyed inflicting pain, and had meglaomanic tendencies, though he himself was fairly small in stature. oh, and he loved using poison. the guy was slightly mad, with what seemed like multiple personalities.

he met "the cackling trio": one wielding a short bow, one an axe, and one with a dagger. each one used a slightly different psychic poison that caused either pain, hillucinations, or confusion. they were all laughing and cackling and hissing. they had less hitpoints, but when one was vanquished it disappeared to air, and it's essence merged with the other, who grew in size, . this happened when another was "killed", so there was one last large or huge lizardman, with 6 arms.

3) the shifter monk kept tryingto balance his bestial nature and his strict self discipline. the guy wasn't that much into roleplay but i knew he loved to fight, especially loved the speed and defenses the monk class features gave him, and thought of himself as nigh unhuttable (not true, but he had his illusions)

his nemesis was a bestial creature, some sort of a primal lycanthrope, with admantine like skin, who moved realy fast (had that feat that means you can move, attack, and move again. he could move faster than the monk), and his attacks once seemed all orderly and correct, usually followed by a sort of a very weakened Dictum spell affect, and once quite chaotic, animalistic, followed by the opposite effect (forgot it's name)

there were two other members, one was a dwarf, another a paladin, but i don't remember what i planned for them. it was a long time ago. i think the paladin faced his doubts about his belief somehow.

how did it played out? at first everyone was taken aback by the strange creatures, and the battle was odd. but soon they found out that they need their friends to cope with this, and while each duplicate tried to focus on "his" opponent, the party members combined into teams of 2 on 1 to take down the duplicates, usually not containing the "target" in the team.

it was a tough battle, but the players first were confised about it, but in the end they loved it (except one who didn't agree with his character's depiction. the dwarf guy). it also brought out a bit more roleplay after wards.

as i said, it takes creativity, but i think it could work. if you want, tell us about your characters, and we might help.

Kol.

[lvl 1 fighter]

I did something like this once. It was a one-shot tongue in cheek dungeon crawl, with lots of old trap ideas like a water filling room, fake bottomless pits, and stone statues that come alive. That sort of thing.

The PC's entered one room that was made of mirrors. Yes, just like in Conan. They fought their duplicates. To make it easy for me I had duplicates of their character sheet stripped down to a stat block with relevant combat abilities. At least one PC died but I had planned for that. When the fight was over player X took control of the duplicate, but from his perspective it was the duplicate that had died. If it had been a serious campaign maybe there would have been a little less deus ex machina, but it was all fun and everyone enjoyed it.