PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Would this race be overpowered?



Frosty
2009-07-15, 02:27 PM
If there were a custum race with +4 str, +2 con, -2 dex, -2 int or cha, and is large size (not Power Build, but actually large) and it has no level adjustment, would it be too good?

Hat-Trick
2009-07-15, 02:29 PM
Not very, although balancing ability scores might be in order.

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 02:30 PM
By present guidelines, the Large size would be the dealbreaker here. Some additional penalties would be needed (-4 Dex, -2 to all mentals or some other weirder penalties) to keep it fair for melee types.

3.5 places Large size at +2 LA territory, 3.0 has the more rational +1 LA price attached to it. I think +1 LA is about right for being Large to keep it about even with Medium types without adjustment for combat characters (obviously casters wouldn't pretty much ever be of this race anyways).

Mr.Moron
2009-07-15, 02:30 PM
I would say no. Damage-wise, you get a boost that is mostly offset by the fact you can't Power Attack as reliably. You're easier to hit, and will run into huge problems with narrow spaces, a major concern in any campaign that deals heavily in dungeons... or any indoor environment designed for medium creatures.


Certainly, you get some tasty grapple and bull-rush bonuses to push people around with. However that's a somewhat narrow focus. You're still at a disadvantage most monsters that are with large or larger (Due to crazy high monster BaB/STR, or having four legs).

Yes, it could be an issue in a campaign that focuses primarily on medium-sized non-dwarf humanoids, with no casters in play. However that is a fairly small subset of campaigns.

Anxe
2009-07-15, 02:32 PM
Take away the strength bonus or take away the con bonus and half the strength bonus and I think that'd be fine.

Deepblue706
2009-07-15, 02:36 PM
Half-Giants get STR +2, CON +2, DEX -2, have powerful build and psionic abilities. They have a +1 LA.

If you gave this race no special skill bonuses or other benefits (like saves or abilities), then perhaps it's balanced.

Frosty
2009-07-15, 02:37 PM
Half-Giants get STR +2, CON +2, DEX -2, have powerful build and psionic abilities. They have a +1 LA.

If you gave this race no special skill bonuses or other benefits (like saves or abilities), then perhaps it's balanced.

Are half-giants considered balanced in general?

Wih
2009-07-15, 02:39 PM
The lowest LA available for Large Size that I'm aware of is Half-Ogre, which is a +2 LA. Keep in mind how powerful that reach is...yes, the race is quite overpowered as is compared to any other LA +0 race out there. I'd also say it's overpowered for +1 LA too as it'd still be a ludicrously cheap way of getting a large sized race. There's a good reason that there are very few low LA creatures with full-up large size.

EDIT: Yes, the Half-Giant is balanced. Their bigger powerful build cousins the Goliaths a few people have problems with, but I haven't heard any issues with Half-Giants.

Deepblue706
2009-07-15, 02:39 PM
Are half-giants considered balanced in general?

I haven't heard anyone claimed they're particularly unbalanced. Sure, they're kinda neat, but honestly I'd never play them with a level-adjustment.

Frosty
2009-07-15, 02:41 PM
I haven't heard anyone claimed they're particularly unbalanced. Sure, they're kinda neat, but honestly I'd never play them with a level-adjustment.

Unless you can buy it off?

Deepblue706
2009-07-15, 02:44 PM
Unless you can buy it off?

Only if I actually played through all the moments where that LA would be considered part of my levels. Otherwise, you're just cheating.

Quietus
2009-07-15, 03:30 PM
If there were a custum race with +4 str, +2 con, -2 dex, -2 int or cha, and is large size (not Power Build, but actually large) and it has no level adjustment, would it be too good?

Compare to half-ogre :

Str +6, con +2, dex/int/cha -2, 4 NA, darkvision, large size, LA +2.


I'd put your custom race at a high end LA +1 or a low end LA +2.

Frosty
2009-07-15, 03:31 PM
Compare to half-ogre :

Str +6, con +2, dex/int/cha -2, 4 NA, darkvision, large size, LA +2.


I'd put your custom race at a high end LA +1 or a low end LA +2.

This DM I might be playing with is allowing it as a LA +0 race, so I'm thinking of taking it. Of course, Humans in this game also have +2 to stat of choice, and a bonus feat at level 5 and at level 10.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-15, 03:41 PM
This DM I might be playing with is allowing it as a LA +0 race, so I'm thinking of taking it. Of course, Humans in this game also have +2 to stat of choice, and a bonus feat at level 5 and at level 10.

Your race as listed is strictly inferior to that human. If you're attached to it flavor wise, jump on the feat bonanza.

hamishspence
2009-07-15, 03:41 PM
Half ogres began as LA +1 in Savage species, but got upgraded to LA +2 in Races of Destiny.

Dragon Magazine 313 Half Ogre and Half Minotaur templates are both Large if applied to Medium creatures, and are both LA +1.

So you could make a case for either.

erikun
2009-07-15, 03:47 PM
I'd say you're looking at around a +1 LA. Yeah, your putting the character into the Fighter/Barbarian territory that way, but I honestly couldn't see a -2 Dex, -2 Cha race as a Sorcerer anyways.

10' reach is kind of a big deal, even if it's only a big deal to melee types.

FMArthur
2009-07-15, 03:49 PM
Only if I actually played through all the moments where that LA would be considered part of my levels. Otherwise, you're just cheating.

You pay an experience point cost, which is going to stay with you.

The big problem with LA is that most classes' levels get more valuable as you go up, but racial features almost never scale; that +1LA starts looking considerably less valuable compared to the powers you could have had a level sooner. Often what is worth losing levels for earlier becomes so insignificant that it doesn't even see usage later on.

Calmness
2009-07-15, 03:51 PM
Should be +1 LA because of large size and that +4. Does it have anything else though? Some skill bonuses or NA? It seems a little plain just like that.

I don't see the problem with it being LA 0 though, it's not like a point of damage will break your game, and if the DM is fine with it go ahead.

Kylarra
2009-07-15, 04:03 PM
You pay an experience point cost, which is going to stay with you.

The big problem with LA is that most classes' levels get more valuable as you go up, but racial features almost never scale; that +1LA starts looking considerably less valuable compared to the powers you could have had a level sooner. Often what is worth losing levels for earlier becomes so insignificant that it doesn't even see usage later on.Well it will and it won't, because the gravy train will boost you back close to your companions' levels of exp pretty fast.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-15, 04:11 PM
If there were a custum race with +4 str, +2 con, -2 dex, -2 int or cha, and is large size (not Power Build, but actually large) and it has no level adjustment, would it be too good?

Yes, it is too good. It's too good for LA +1, much less +0. It's the Large Size that is the dealbreaker, reach > all. I might be able to see it as a +1, but not as a +0.

hamishspence
2009-07-15, 04:18 PM
agreed- LA +1 is a minimum, and even that (as of early 3.5 Dragon Magazines) while sometimes done, has a reputation for slightly excessive power.

On the other hand, pure fighters tend not to shine next to casters anyway.

Doc Roc
2009-07-15, 06:27 PM
Let me put it this way, I wouldn't allow it in Test of Spite.

Indon
2009-07-15, 07:07 PM
This DM I might be playing with is allowing it as a LA +0 race, so I'm thinking of taking it. Of course, Humans in this game also have +2 to stat of choice, and a bonus feat at level 5 and at level 10.

Yeah, if those humans are +0, then your race should be like -1 or something: You need to get a free level to catch up with those guys :P.

ericgrau
2009-07-15, 08:28 PM
If there were a custum race with +4 str, +2 con, -2 dex, -2 int or cha, and is large size (not Power Build, but actually large) and it has no level adjustment, would it be too good?

Yes, by a good margin. The stats are way too easy to min-max. Who cares about penalties you can easily dump? Large size also tends to get LA by itself with most monsters. Some may disagree, but there's good reason for this: Reach, AoO's, grapple, trip, sunder, etc., etc. The LA assumes you use the race according to what he's good at, not that you play him in a lousy way. Maybe in the hands of a noob player this race is a high LA +0, but otherwise it's way over the top.

But compared to the humans you mentioned it's not so extreme. Still nice, perhaps better, but not much better if it is. Figure out what class you want, then decide. If you pick a martial class then I'd take that race hands down, otherwise human or something else would be better. Be sure to take advantage of your large size for reach / trip / etc. if you do take the custom race, or you won't see what's so special about it. Again I based LA on the best use of the race, not careless use of it, as is typical.

Deepblue706
2009-07-15, 09:07 PM
Sure, this guy has reach...but that -2 to AC is going to be terrible at low levels. His AB is only 1 higher than a regular human, or identical to one who puts their +2 into STR (as per this houserule), due to the fact that being Large gives you a penalty to attack.

Dropped DEX means he can't exploit AoO tactics very well, and a penalty to INT would make it harder to grab Improved Trip and Disarm. This big guy could Grapple, Bull Rush, Sunder or just Hit Stuff...but might find himself limited.

Being Large, this means he also has to spend more money for Armor. That's not cool.

So, with further thought, I'd say it should normally be a LA of +1. But for a game where Humans are getting more bonus feats and +2 to an attribute of their choice, don't worry about it.

Myrmex
2009-07-15, 09:54 PM
Sure, this guy has reach...but that -2 to AC is going to be terrible at low levels. His AB is only 1 higher than a regular human, or identical to one who puts their +2 into STR (as per this houserule), due to the fact that being Large gives you a penalty to attack.

Dropped DEX means he can't exploit AoO tactics very well, and a penalty to INT would make it harder to grab Improved Trip and Disarm. This big guy could Grapple, Bull Rush, Sunder or just Hit Stuff...but might find himself limited.

Being Large, this means he also has to spend more money for Armor. That's not cool.

So, with further thought, I'd say it should normally be a LA of +1. But for a game where Humans are getting more bonus feats and +2 to an attribute of their choice, don't worry about it.

A fair analysis.

Frosty
2009-07-16, 02:48 PM
Yes the humans in this world are also LA +0, so they get a total of 3 free feats and a +2 to any stat.

I plan on making a Dungeoncrasher Fighter with the Knockback Feat and wield a Spiked chain. Maybe sprinkle in a level of Crusader somewhere to get Thicket of Blades.