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Longcat
2009-07-15, 03:35 PM
Hello all,
I wish to build a Gish based on the aforementioned classes. Rules are:

36 PB or Champion array
All 3.5 sources (except Dragon magazine)
No templates (except those acquired through class levels)
No Flaws
Setting is Faerun, Pre-Spellplague

That said, here's the build I'm thinking of:
Human Warblade1/Martial Focused Conjurer5/Jade Phoenix Mage4/Abjurant Champion5/Jade Phoenix Mage+5
Str 15(+1)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 16(+4)
Wis 14
Cha 8

Feats:
1: Power Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain) (Human)
2: Combat Reflexes(Wizard)
3: Stand Still
6: Combat Casting(Wizard), Iron Heart Aura
9: Stormguard Warrior
12: Leap Attack
15: Robilar's Gambit
18: Practised Spellcaster (Wizard)

Banned Schools: Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy
Alternate Classfeatures: Abrupt Jaunt(PHB2), Martial Wizard(UA)

Any Thoughts?

only1doug
2009-07-15, 03:56 PM
Just a thought on Banned schools, Necromancy has the best debuff spells, can be nice to drain the opponents strength before hitting them.

I'd consider trying to fit eschew materials feat into the build, or possibly quickdraw instead. Fumbling for components in combat is a bad thing.

What spells are you taking?

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 04:12 PM
Well, you definitely need Quicken Spell in there somewhere. I'd also look into Extend Spell and definitely Arcane Strike [Complete Warrior]. The easiest cuts I can see are Stormguard Warrior & Ironheart Aura, but beyond that it gets harder.

What's the Wis 14 for? Wis 12 and pick up Str 16, allowing you to place all your level-ups to Int giving you ending Int of 32 with the Tome in business. Alternatively, you could go Str +2, Int +3 ending up with Str 28 and Int 30.

Longcat
2009-07-15, 04:13 PM
Just a thought on Banned schools, Necromancy has the best debuff spells, can be nice to drain the opponents strength before hitting them.


Well, while Enervation isn't officially banned, the DM has threatened to retaliate in kind should we abuse this spell, and I'd rather avoid a metamagic-stacking slugfest. Same thing goes for Shivering Touch. Other than that, the school is rather lackluster, although I do like Animate Dead for flavour reasons.



I'd consider trying to fit eschew materials feat into the build, or possibly quickdraw instead. Fumbling for components in combat is a bad thing.

What spells are you taking?

Quickdraw won't be necessary, since any character with BAB of +1 or higher can draw a weapon as part of a move action. As for Eschew Materials, I don't really plan on casting lots of spells with material components in midfight, and I'm too nice to abuse something like Ice Assassin :smallwink:

My spell selection will mostly cover buffs, e.g. Haste, Wraithstrike, Bite of X-series, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Enlarge Person etc.


Well, you definitely need Quicken Spell in there somewhere. I'd also look into Extend Spell and definitely Arcane Strike [Complete Warrior]. The easiest cuts I can see are Stormguard Warrior & Ironheart Aura, but beyond that it gets harder.


Well, the character does get Quickened Strike from JPM, which is essentially one quickened spell for free per encounter. As for Extend Spell, what spells do you suggest extending? Also, Arcane Strike seems to be inferior to Arcane Wraith in any way I can think of, or am I overlooking something? Do the two stack?

I'd like to keep Stormguard Warrior, if possible. With Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades, Robilar's Gambit and a Spiked Chain, there's a lot of damage potential there.



What's the Wis 14 for? Wis 12 and pick up Str 16, allowing you to place all your level-ups to Int giving you ending Int of 32 with the Tome in business. Alternatively, you could go Str +2, Int +3 ending up with Str 28 and Int 30.

Good point, I haven't taken the tomes into the equation. With those, I won't end up with an odd int score even if I put all five points into int. Thanks!

ChaosDefender24
2009-07-15, 04:22 PM
what kind of spells would a gish need to quicken?

(i dont understand many things)

Roland St. Jude
2009-07-15, 04:23 PM
Definitely find out your DM's policy on material and somatic components. The rules don't say whether you need to have the material component on you our drawn in some fashion. One is a pain for Gishes, the other is not. Although you can also deal with this some through spell selection rather than feats; it's just a matter of what limitation you want.

Likewise with taking your hand off your weapon long enough to cast a spell. You can hold a 2H weapon in one hand while you cast and then put your other hand on it to attack. This should be fine, but the existence of Somatic Weaponry suggests that a feat is needed to do this. So DMs vary.

quick_comment
2009-07-15, 04:25 PM
what kind of spells would a gish need to quicken?

(i dont understand many things)

Standard action buffs mostly.

And yes, arcane wrath and arcane strike do stack.

ChaosDefender24
2009-07-15, 04:25 PM
Like fist of stone and such.I think I understand!

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-15, 04:28 PM
Other than that, the school is rather lackluster, although I do like Animate Dead for flavour reasons.

Other than everyone's favorites: Astral Projection and Clone. Plus, it adds the ever so useful Ray of Enfeeblement, Spiritwall and Wrack.

Personally, were I making a Gish I'd go Wizard 5/Warblade 1/JPM 4/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM +6. Warblade 1 at 6th level gives you an IL of 3 to start off with, and thus access to second level maneuvers as soon as you're out of the gate. Over all you get Wizard 17, Emerald Immolation(in my opinion, better than Martial Arcanist as you'll be taking Practiced Spellcaster anyway) and 6th level maneuvers. I'd also keep my familiar, as you can cast Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and double your spell output for a round(or +33% if you use Quickens alot).

Feat wise: I'd drop Stormguard Warrior(lets be honest, you're not gonna use it), Combat Casting(Bleh! Ew! No!) and Iron Heart Aura. Instead, nick Arcane Strike, Quicken Spell and Easy Metamagic(Quicken Spell).

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 04:31 PM
what kind of spells would a gish need to quicken?

(i dont understand many things)

Teleportation effects are incredible to Quicken. Also True Strike and the like. Quicken is very useful for Gishes.


Well, the character does get Quickened Strike from JPM, which is essentially one quickened spell for free per encounter. As for Extend Spell, what spells do you suggest extending? Also, Arcane Strike seems to be inferior to Arcane Wraith in any way I can think of, or am I overlooking something? Do the two stack?

*shrug* Yeah, I know, but at the same time, the other spells are really handy. As for Extend Spell, before level ~15, you'll want to Extend your hour/level buffs and at that point, you can keep your 10 min/level buffs on all day with Extend Spell. Also Rope Trick.

Sure, Arcane Wrath & Arcane Strike stack, and Arcane Wrath is a swift action while Arcane Strike is a free action. Also, Arcane Strike can be awesome when recovering maneuvers with full attack. Overall, gishes want Arcane Strike, especially Focused Specialists.


I'd like to keep Stormguard Warrior, if possible. With Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades, Robilar's Gambit and a Spiked Chain, there's a lot of damage potential there.

Meh, that's your choice.

And sometimes you want to Quicken stuff before attacking (especially stuff like True Strike, teleportation effects and the like; buffs and stuff that puts you into position for the attack), which is why I'd personally always have Quicken Spell on my gishes (also for in-combat buffing).

ChaosDefender24
2009-07-15, 04:32 PM
Combat casting is a pre-req for Abjurant Champion.


I think the idea was to use Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit in conjunction with Stormguard Warrior to get a +8 to hit/damage every time he gets hit.

Longcat
2009-07-15, 04:32 PM
what kind of spells would a gish need to quicken?

(i dont understand many things)

Any short-lasting standard action buff spell, e.g. Bite of Were-X-series, True Strike, etc.



Definitely find out your DM's policy on material and somatic components. The rules don't say whether you need to have the material component on you our drawn in some fashion. One is a pain for Gishes, the other is not. Although you can also deal with this some through spell selection rather than feats; it's just a matter of what limitation you want.

Likewise with taking your hand off your weapon long enough to cast a spell. You can hold a 2H weapon in one hand while you cast and then put your other hand on it to attack. This should be fine, but the existence of Somatic Weaponry suggests that a feat is needed to do this. So DMs vary.

Well, there's been a precedent in our gaming group on this issue, and as far as our DM is concerned, spellcasters can draw any required material components as part of the spellcasting action. As for 2h-weapons and spellcasting, he assumes that the character in question simply holds the weapon one-handed while casting spells. At least, that's how he handles it with another player, who plays a Greatsword wielding Gish.


Other than everyone's favorites: Astral Projection and Clone. Plus, it adds the ever so useful Ray of Enfeeblement, Spiritwall and Wrack.


Ah, those sure are useful. But I trust a Runestaff should do the trick too? :smallcool:




Personally, were I making a Gish I'd go Wizard 5/Warblade 1/JPM 4/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM +6. Warblade 1 at 6th level gives you an IL of 3 to start off with, and thus access to second level maneuvers as soon as you're out of the gate.


Good point, starting with 2nd level maneuvers may just be worth the trade off in Skill points.



Over all you get Wizard 17, Emerald Immolation(in my opinion, better than Martial Arcanist as you'll be taking Practiced Spellcaster anyway) and 6th level maneuvers. I'd also keep my familiar, as you can cast Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and double your spell output for a round(or +33% if you use Quickens alot).


Well, with our current DM, familiars tend to be a liability, as they will be targeted rather often if they participate in combat.



Feat wise: I'd drop Stormguard Warrior(lets be honest, you're not gonna use it), Combat Casting(Bleh! Ew! No!) and Iron Heart Aura. Instead, nick Arcane Strike, Quicken Spell and Easy Metamagic(Quicken Spell).

I'm afraid Easy Metamagic isn't allowed (it's from Dragon magazine, am I right?). Combat Casting is a prerequisite for Abjurant Champion. And why wo you think Stormguard Warrior won't see much use? With Thicket of Blades, a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes+Stand Still, there will be plenty of AoOs to fuel "Channel the Storm".




*shrug* Yeah, I know, but at the same time, the other spells are really handy. As for Extend Spell, before level ~15, you'll want to Extend your hour/level buffs and at that point, you can keep your 10 min/level buffs on all day with Extend Spell. Also Rope Trick.




And sometimes you want to Quicken stuff before attacking (especially stuff like True Strike, teleportation effects and the like; buffs and stuff that puts you into position for the attack), which is why I'd personally always have Quicken Spell on my gishes (also for in-combat buffing).

Hmm, seems handy. Maybe I'll drop EWP(Spiked Chain), and go with Extend instead, and retrain it later into Quicken Spell. Or are they definitely both worth getting?



Sure, Arcane Wrath & Arcane Strike stack, and Arcane Wrath is a swift action while Arcane Strike is a free action. Also, Arcane Strike can be awesome when recovering maneuvers with full attack. Overall, gishes want Arcane Strike, especially Focused Specialists.


Ok, if they stack, then Arcane Strike is awesome, thanks! Am I correct to assume that Warblade recovery works on full attacks too?


So, here's the new feat progression:
1: Power Attack, Stand Still (Human)
2: Combat Reflexes(Wizard)
3: Extend Spell (->Quicken Spell)
6: Combat Casting(Wizard), Iron Heart Aura
9: Stormguard Warrior
12: Arcane Strike
15: Robilar's Gambit
18: Leap Attack

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-15, 04:57 PM
Well, with our current DM, familiars tend to be a liability, as they will be targeted rather often if they participate in combat.

Use the Familiar Pocket spell.


I'm afraid Easy Metamagic isn't allowed (it's from Dragon magazine, am I right?).

Still worth it to pick up quicken.


Combat Casting is a prerequisite for Abjurant Champion.

Oops. Forgot.


And why wo you think Stormguard Warrior won't see much use? With Thicket of Blades, a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes+Stand Still, there will be plenty of AoOs to fuel "Channel the Storm".

Because every time you waste time attacking with Channel the Storm, that's one attack you could have dealt much more damage via Arcane Strike/Wrath. Off the top of my head, Arcane Wrath at least lasts 1 round and Arcane Strike does as well. Nick a ring of Wizardy I and blow a 1st and a 5th for +7(PA for 2) to hit and +5d4+3d10+8/hit. In the end, the number of AoOs you make will outdamage any benefit you would normally gain from Channel the Storm except on the odd critical.

Buffing via Bite of the Were-X and other strength enhancers will add much more damage simply because you're getting several attacks a round. On top of that, your Ring of Wizardy will let you blow 1sts for Arcane Wrath(it doesn't require a minimum spell level blown) basically every combat.

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 05:13 PM
Ok, if they stack, then Arcane Strike is awesome, thanks! Am I correct to assume that Warblade recovery works on full attacks too?

Yes, it's game. Warblade recovery just requires you to follow it with a melee attack, which your full attack most likely consists of. That's the whole beauty of it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-15, 06:28 PM
Get Spontaneous Divination from Complete Champion in place of your Wizard 5 bonus feat, and use Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic. That will allow you to take Practical Metamagic: Quicken from Races of the Dragon, which is a decent substitute for Easy Metamagic.

(Lesser, Greater) Metamagic Rods of Extend are inexpensive enough that you usually won't need it as a feat unless you want to get Persistent Spell. I'm a big fan of using Extended Wraithstrike with a full attack one round, then follow up with Arcane Strike + Charge/Leap Attack the next round and then cast Quickened Whirling Blade with all the same bonuses.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-07-15, 06:37 PM
Yes, it's game. Warblade recovery just requires you to follow it with a melee attack, which your full attack most likely consists of. That's the whole beauty of it.

That sounds sketchy. While I can see how a strict reading of the recovery mechanic would allow that as a melee attack is included in a full attack, one could argue that RAI would be a single melee attack given that the other option besides attacking is to use a standard action (which is the action equivalent of a single melee attack).

Is the full attack option a standard interpretation here on the boards?

(This isn't entirely OT as it could impact the use of the characters feat.)

Eldariel
2009-07-15, 07:20 PM
That sounds sketchy. While I can see how a strict reading of the recovery mechanic would allow that as a melee attack is included in a full attack, one could argue that RAI would be a single melee attack given that the other option besides attacking is to use a standard action (which is the action equivalent of a single melee attack).

Is the full attack option a standard interpretation here on the boards?

(This isn't entirely OT as it could impact the use of the characters feat.)

It's the standard interpretation I've heard. But yeah, the "standard action to do nothing" is IMHO the minimum time required to recover the maneuvers. Full attack is a full-round action; by RAW it works and RAI I see no reason why they'd expect the Warblade not to use the whole recovery-round attacking if possible.

As far as I'm concerned, the "or a standard action doing nothing"-comparison is there simply for situations where you can't attack anyone, and want to recover maneuvers. Forcing it to be a standard action attack is also a huge mechanical gimp making Warblade recovery little better than Swordsage's, which is supposed to be Swordsage's weakness; Adaptive Style for all maneuvers or a standard action for 1 attack + all maneuvers is little different to be honest; the standard action attack isn't the best thing ever. So yeah, even just for balance reasons, I believe in the swift+any attack interpretation, which seems logical, fair and intuitive.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-15, 07:25 PM
"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing."

A melee attack can be performed via an attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#attack), full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack), charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge), attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm), and many other types of actions. It does not specifically say which type of action must be spent on the melee attack, only that it must be a melee attack. You can even cast a touch-range spell and use the free melee touch attack that comes with it to recover your maneuvers if you want.

Longcat
2009-07-16, 07:28 AM
Thanks for all your suggestions thus far! Now, let's take a look at the suitable maneuvers for this character. I'm currently AFB, so please point out if I make any mistakes:

Wizard5/Warblade1: Punishing Stance, Steel Wind, Mountain Hammer, Sudden Leap
Wizard5/Warblade1/JPM1: Flashing Sun
Wizard5/Warblade1/JPM3: Crusader Strike
Stance: Thicket of Blades
Wizard5/Warblade1/JPM5: Divine Surge

As for the rest of the maneuvers, I'm not really sure... Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind don't seem to offer much.

Talya
2009-07-16, 08:35 AM
And sometimes you want to Quicken stuff before attacking (especially stuff like True Strike, teleportation effects and the like; buffs and stuff that puts you into position for the attack), which is why I'd personally always have Quicken Spell on my gishes (also for in-combat buffing).


While true for truestrike and teleportation, abjurant champion automatically quickens all his abjurations of spell level 3 and under, which further limits the utility of the Quicken Spell metamagic. Not that it wouldn't be useful, but with Quickened Strike and Abjurant Champion, he's quickening a LOT of stuff without the need for it. I can see forgoing the feat...

Blackfang108
2009-07-16, 04:35 PM
Likewise with taking your hand off your weapon long enough to cast a spell. You can hold a 2H weapon in one hand while you cast and then put your other hand on it to attack. This should be fine, but the existence of Somatic Weaponry suggests that a feat is needed to do this. So DMs vary.

By RAW, it's a free action to remove one hand from a 2h weapon, and a free action to put it back on.

Somatic weaponry is for when you have a 1h weapon and a shield.

MichielHagen
2009-08-12, 06:50 AM
By RAW, it's a free action to remove one hand from a 2h weapon, and a free action to put it back on.

Somatic weaponry is for when you have a 1h weapon and a shield.

I am looking for those rules for a 2h weapon, where would i find them?

Also, is it possible to use a rod this way somehow?

I can imagine it is possible to use a rod and a one handed weapon to cast a (swift action) spell, using the rod. Then drop the rod and double wield the 1handed weapon.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-08-12, 07:13 AM
Just a quick note, if you can't fit in MM reduction for Quicken, I'd suggest grabbing Arcane Spellsurge from Dragon Magic as one of your first 7th level spells.

Also, is there any reason other than Abrupt Jaunt that you're taking Conjurer over Transmuter? With Familiar Pocket and Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, Transmutation probably wins out against Conjuration.

Navigator
2009-08-14, 11:09 AM
If this were my gish, I would make the following changes:

Stack strength instead of intelligence. Especially since you're a focused specialist, you only need to hit 19 intelligence and you're golden. Are you really going to be tossing SoDs that often?
Specialize in transmutation instead of conjuration. Screw abrupt jaunt, just grab some anklets of translocation. You'll get much more out of your spell slots as a transmuter.
Fit Minor Shapeshift (CM) into your feat progression somehow.
Go for core Wizard, keep Scribe Scroll, and pick up Craft Contingent Spell at Wizard 5.
Since you're an Abjurant Champion and will be getting a nice shield bonus to AC, don't completely overlook Parrying Shield (LoM).

My 5 cents. :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2009-08-14, 11:29 AM
I would drop Conjurer for Duskblade, myself. You get casting in armor and Arcane Channeling. Mix that with the JPM's channeling ability and you can drop huge dice.

MichielHagen
2009-08-14, 11:39 AM
But Duskblade doesn't even have Shield...(and Luminous Armor)....
Who needs armor then?

Fax Celestis
2009-08-14, 11:53 AM
But Duskblade doesn't even have Shield...(and Luminous Armor)....
Who needs armor then?

You get deflect and lesser deflect. Deflect, as a 2nd level spell and an immediate action, gives you a deflection bonus to AC equal to 1/2 your CL. Add in Abjurant Champion for loldeflection.

MichielHagen
2009-08-14, 12:08 PM
You get deflect and lesser deflect. Deflect, as a 2nd level spell and an immediate action, gives you a deflection bonus to AC equal to 1/2 your CL. Add in Abjurant Champion for loldeflection.

Lesser Deflect gives a Deflection bonus, which doesnt count for Abjurant Champion.
Deflect gives Shield bonus (unlike deflection like you said), but still, its only against one attack. Shield would be way better, since you can already cast it as a swift action also because of Abjurant Champion.

Fax Celestis
2009-08-14, 12:09 PM
Lesser Deflect gives a Deflection bonus, which doesnt count for Abjurant Champion.
Deflect gives Shield bonus (unlike deflection like you said), but still, its only against one attack. Shield would be way better, since you can already cast it as a swift action also because of Abjurant Champion.

Depends, largely, on whether you want to be offensive or defensive. Arcane Channeling + JPM channel is a fistful of dice of damage. We're talking Exalted numbers of dice here.