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View Full Version : So how the heck do all these Outsiders get around?



Jergmo
2009-07-15, 07:49 PM
With the exception of the Bebilith (self-only), Genies, one type of Angel, Ethereal Filchers, and Elder Titans, there aren't really any Outsiders who can cast Plane Shift. Most Devils, Demons, and Celestials can cast Greater Teleport (self-only), however, that doesn't allow interplanar travel. However, what about the Outsiders that are involved with mortal affairs or are warring with each other? Surely Succubi and Glabrezu don't rely on a wizard one day deciding to summon one of them for all of their encounters with mortals. And how do demonic/devilish armies move across the planes to do war with each other?

Is there a source that gives them additional spell-like abilities as they increase in their racial hit die, or are there established portals everywhere that the lot of them use? Or do they have to take 12-14 levels in sorcerer or wizard to do it, which is very impractical?

Khatoblepas
2009-07-15, 07:51 PM
Planar portals. They exist naturally, some temporary, a lot of permanent ones.

Then there are ways to get from one plane to another without planar travel. I remember a particular river in the Great Wheel which takes you from the Outlands NE section to Gehenna.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-15, 07:51 PM
At least in the case of the blood-war, I believe that they mainly rely on existing inter-planar portals and the like. The difficulty in getting to the Prime is as far as I know quite intentional, and a large part of the reason behind them tolerating cults in the first place.

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-15, 07:53 PM
There are these things called "portals" which connect a part of one plane to a part of another, which allow Outsiders (and other plane-dwelling creatures) to travel about with relative ease. There's tons of 'em, and they go all over the place! Some require a special item to activate, but others don't.

EDIT: Double ninja'd!! :smallsigh:

Mr.Moron
2009-07-15, 07:55 PM
All angels can cast spells as clerics of high enough level to prepare Plane Shift as can Trumpet Archons. I think Urisinals have enough wizard-casting such that they can as well, but don't recall. At least on the good side there are enough that can get the others around, assuming they're willing to join hands.

Vaynor
2009-07-15, 08:00 PM
There's also this thing called a "Gate" spell.

Jergmo
2009-07-15, 08:09 PM
There's also this thing called a "Gate" spell.

That's even more impractical. Now you're in the 18+ wizard or sorcerer level territory.

Jergmo
2009-07-15, 08:10 PM
All angels can cast spells as clerics of high enough level to prepare Plane Shift as can Trumpet Archons. I think Urisinals have enough wizard-casting such that they can as well, but don't recall. At least on the good size there are enough that can get the others around, assuming they're willing to join hands.

Well, of course. They're the Carebears of the universe. :smalltongue:
So, should a Demon or Devil want to go to the Prime Material, they must take the sorcerer/wizard or cleric levels?

Vaynor
2009-07-15, 08:16 PM
That's even more impractical. Now you're in the 18+ wizard or sorcerer level territory.

It's impractical to believe that there is, at the very least, a single level 17+ wizard on any plane other than the material plane? :smallconfused:

You do know that Gate can transport multiple people right?

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-15, 08:18 PM
No, they have their foul cults break out the sacrificial daggers, perform the apropriate foul rituals, and encite the power of plot to slip through the barriers between worlds and carry out what nefarious deeds they are about.

Or they find themselves an existing way through, which would likely be more dangerous and involved.

I'm pretty sure that most devils and demons should not be launching interplaner jaunts with anything aproaching ease.

Riffington
2009-07-15, 08:24 PM
If even 1% of them were able to have contact with living mortals, there wouldn't be a Prime Material plane. There would just be Hell.

/unless said Prime Material plane were the Tippyverse.

Jergmo
2009-07-15, 08:25 PM
It's impractical to believe that there is, at the very least, a single level 17+ wizard on any plane other than the material plane? :smallconfused:

You do know that Gate can transport multiple people right?

No, but only the exceptionally powerful of the exceptionally powerful demons would be pulling it off, of which there are not very many. They'd be in the epic level territory. Plus, most of them progress by racial hit dice.


If even 1% of them were able to have contact with living mortals, there wouldn't be a Prime Material plane. There would just be Hell.

/unless said Prime Material plane were the Tippyverse.

What's stopping a single high level evil mad wizard from opening a Gate to the Abyss in a secluded region and unleashing a demonic army? *Shrug* :smalleek:

Mr.Moron
2009-07-15, 08:28 PM
Plus, most of them progress by racial hit dice.

Anything can progress by Class Levels. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingClassLevels). They can even do it on th cheap relative to their CR if caster levels are non-associated for them.

Jergmo
2009-07-15, 08:30 PM
Anything can progress by Class Levels. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingClassLevels). They can even do it on th cheap relative to their CR if caster levels are non-associated for them.

Yes, but again, the majority of them progress by their racial hit dice.

Vaynor
2009-07-15, 08:36 PM
Yes, but again, the majority of them progress by their racial hit dice.

You keep saying majority, but even an incredibly small minority could account for the entire outsider presence on the material plane. A gate can fit quite a lot of creatures.

Maerok
2009-07-15, 08:39 PM
I thought this was going to be a discussion of planetouched, half-fiends/half-celestials, among others.


But I'd say portals, dumb luck, fate, and summoning (either by magic or rituals) are the key ways to transport across the planes. You'd be best served by reading a tome on planar metaphysics.

You've also got all sorts of cosmic overlays and the power of plot.

Riffington
2009-07-15, 08:46 PM
What's stopping a single high level evil mad wizard from opening a Gate to the Abyss in a secluded region and unleashing a demonic army? *Shrug* :smalleek:

The Pantheon, I imagine.

Doc Roc
2009-07-15, 08:47 PM
Sigil is important for a reason, and that is all I will say about that.

Jergmo
2009-07-15, 08:53 PM
The Pantheon, I imagine.

And so, why would Demons having access to the Prime Material plane spell the end of the Prime Material plane, when the Pantheon is there to intervene?

Jergmo
2009-07-15, 08:54 PM
Sigil is important for a reason, and that is all I will say about that.

Yes, they can travel to Sigil, however, large groups/armies are strictly forbidden and cannot gain access to it. The Lady of Pain makes certain of this, and she has the power to restrict even other deities.

holywhippet
2009-07-15, 09:22 PM
The Pantheon, I imagine.

I was thinking much the same thing - the Gods simply won't allow outsiders to invade the world en masse. However, what about the Darksun setting? The Gods abandoned that world.

I supect two other reasons they don't just march through the portals into a world are a) They have business to attend to at home and b) Since they weren't summoned if they die in the prime material plane they are dead for good.

Jergmo
2009-07-15, 09:26 PM
I was thinking much the same thing - the Gods simply won't allow outsiders to invade the world en masse. However, what about the Darksun setting? The Gods abandoned that world.

I supect two other reasons they don't just march through the portals into a world are a) They have business to attend to at home and b) Since they weren't summoned if they die in the prime material plane they are dead for good.

If I remember right, they're merely banished to their home plane for a century.

Belobog
2009-07-15, 09:38 PM
I thought this was going to be a discussion of planetouched, half-fiends/half-celestials, among others.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks like that.

Anyway, considering that the planes are infinite in scope, and thus possess infinite inhabitants, a very low ratio of devils/demons/yugoloths/etc. crossing over into the Prime could account for every single 'evil' incursion into it, whether through luck or innate ability or through currying favor or working with with other, more powerful creatures who possess such abilities, but have no interest or time to go there themselves.

Myrmex
2009-07-15, 09:49 PM
An imp or quasit can take 12 to 14 levels in sorcerer, wizard, archivist or cleric and increase its CR by only 12 to 14.

I imagine all the best wizards are outsiders. A lawful evil devil that has nothing better to do than study arcane magic for ten thousand years? He's going to kick the **** out of mortal casters.

Porthos
2009-07-15, 10:01 PM
What's stopping a single high level evil mad wizard from opening a Gate to the Abyss in a secluded region and unleashing a demonic army? *Shrug* :smalleek:

The PCs, silly. :smalltongue:

ex cathedra
2009-07-15, 10:12 PM
What's stopping a single high level evil mad wizard from opening a Gate to the Abyss in a secluded region and unleashing a demonic army? *Shrug* :smalleek:

Your party.

Honestly. Storylines 101.

wadledo
2009-07-15, 10:19 PM
I'm sorry if this isn't on topic, but Ethereal Filchers and Titans are not OUTSIDERS!!!

Darrin
2009-07-15, 10:22 PM
Is there a source that gives them additional spell-like abilities as they increase in their racial hit die, or are there established portals everywhere that the lot of them use? Or do they have to take 12-14 levels in sorcerer or wizard to do it, which is very impractical?

Summon Monster II can rustle up a handy-dandy Ether Scarab. Otherwise, Alter Self + Assume Supernatural Ability might work.

SurlySeraph
2009-07-15, 10:45 PM
I was thinking much the same thing - the Gods simply won't allow outsiders to invade the world en masse. However, what about the Darksun setting? The Gods abandoned that world.

Because nobody, including demons, wants to go to Athas. Plus, I think there's some kind of effect that keeps you from getting in or out of it, but I'm not 100% sure there.

Amiel
2009-07-15, 10:46 PM
I'm sorry if this isn't on topic, but Ethereal Filchers and Titans are not OUTSIDERS!!!

Titans are indeed outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm), although you are correct in pointing out that ethereal filchers OTOH are not.



Yugoloth propaganda has it that the teleporting ability of the baatezu and tanar'ri is conditional based on whether the yugoloths are content with the situation and outcome (ie direction of the Blood War, et al); they have been known to deny to this salient ability to any demon or devil in question. They are reticent to articulate any indication as to whether or not they actually control the portals of the Lower Planes.


Devil propaganda maintains that any dealings with the beneficiary (ie devil) is always at the behest of the client (ie the vict...er, never mind). The deals that devils make usually call for the client to either summon or call the devil to the Prime Material Plane, or Mortal Coil. This will then culminate in the penning of contracts and pacts, usually written with the blood with the victi...er, client. Other than this form of transportation, devils deny any other way to traveling to the Prime Material Plane as they have more important issues to deal with.

Demons just want to rip your face off and chew on it, although mortal scholars are inclined to agree that any contact made with these outsiders is per the above.

I would argue that any presence of the aligned outsider exemplars would result in a spiritual corruption in that area; both due to their unnaturalness and personification of spiritual ideals and alignments.


The Lower Planes are coterminous and connected to each other, most of them, although the Blood War usually rages on the fields of the Gray Wastes. Any traveler upon any given Lower Plane can travel to another simply by exercise of will or physically trekking. Baator is too well defended to conquer, while the tanar'ri simply don't care about what happens to their fellows.


Some worlds have clauses or stipulations in place that limit dealings and interaction with outsiders. Other worlds bar and forbid access of outsiders to the Mortal Coil, either due to the possessiveness and jealousy of deities, the wisdom and intelligence of deities, epic magic in place, or some other reason.

wadledo
2009-07-15, 10:54 PM
Titans are indeed outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm), although you are correct in pointing out that ethereal filchers OTOH are not.

Thank you, I was thinking of giants for some reason.

Zen Master
2009-07-16, 02:03 AM
Well, of course. They're the Carebears of the universe. :smalltongue:
So, should a Demon or Devil want to go to the Prime Material, they must take the sorcerer/wizard or cleric levels?

In general I believe it matters very little what demons or devils do - except in the rare case they happen to be pit fiends or someone else with a lot of clout.

The way I figure, a devil or demon has very little say, and could simply be happily going about it's business, maybe tending a swine herd or picking flowers in a field, when some planar boss shows up, proclaims 'You're off to the blood war', opens a portal and stuffs him through.

Before the portal closes, he likely hears the kind parting words 'go give 'em a solid thumping - we're all counting on you, you know!'

Riffington
2009-07-16, 06:25 AM
And so, why would Demons having access to the Prime Material plane spell the end of the Prime Material plane, when the Pantheon is there to intervene?

One imagines (without actual knowledge of your Pantheon's stats) that they are powerful enough to stop most large portals from being opened. Possibly with the PC's help once or twice (as mentioned previously). If a gate were truly opened wide, one imagines the death of your deities at the hands of a demonic army, and the incorporation of the Prime into one more layer of the Abyss. Or something like that. It's possible, of course, that the demonic army would be friendly, and that the PCs are just propping up the authoritarian rule of your current deities for no good reason.

Kami2awa
2009-07-16, 06:40 AM
No, but only the exceptionally powerful of the exceptionally powerful demons would be pulling it off, of which there are not very many. They'd be in the epic level territory. Plus, most of them progress by racial hit dice.



What's stopping a single high level evil mad wizard from opening a Gate to the Abyss in a secluded region and unleashing a demonic army? *Shrug* :smalleek:

The PCs, they stop six of these guys before breakfast.