Durkon's prophecy

[Zeitgeist]

Inspired by a line from another thread:


I'd just like to point out that Durkon asked how he would finally be returning home and the Oracle answered "posthumously".

That finally is an important word. It could mean that Durkon could return home many, many times in his life and then finally (as in for the last time) return home posthumously.

Just my thought, though.

I never really thought about that, I figured it was a pretty moot point one way or the other, but really, when you look at the way it was worded, it makes a lot of sense.

His final return, assuming he's buried in his homelands, will absolutely be posthumous.

Maybe wishful thinking, but it seems the oracle's prophecy only really tells us that he'll be buried there, and that he won't die there, he'll have to be taken there after he dies. It says nothing about what happens until then except that he will DIE somewhere else (otherwise, he wouldn't return there for the last time dead).

[Souhiro]

Nope.

The OTHER Durkon Prophecy says that next time he (Durkon) enters his homelands, he wil bring death and destruction. He was casted away in a non-return mission, to avoid his return, and the consecuent death and destruction.

So I asume: When Durkon comes back to his hometown, his hometown won't be anymore. So, he won't be able to enter, go away, re-enter, re-go away... First time, and dwarfs, women-dwarfs, even cat-dwarfs will go ka-boom

[DnDgeek13]

now we have proficies for the death of 2 Pc's. who dies next?

[Tyrmatt]

Or the case in point of Durkon returning posthumously means he can bypass the rules of the previous prophecy about him bringing destruction by being dead. Loopholes are such fun :)

[zyphyr]

D will die. The rest of the order will spring for a casket to send him home in. V will decorate part of it with Explosive Runes, and put something over them or perhaps put them inside the lid. D's friends and family do something that reveals the runes. BOOM. Two prophecies, one event

[MickJay]

The most popular theory, I think, was that he'll be animated as a powerful undead, thus his return to homeland will be both posthumous, and will bring death and destruction.

[Souhiro]

Well, one prophecy won't bypass the other. The original prophecy about D was about his return. an he WILL return, posthumously, but will return.

But I don't figure a happy ending for Elan, with all his friends death. I mean, Elan will be sad if he loses Roy, Durkon, Roy, V, and his very best friend Roy. And as everyone knows, one can't be sad and happy at the same time.

That's the reason because being an E.M.O. sucks.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Or, y'know, Durkon probably meant "finally" in the other sense of the word… "after a long time, typically difficulty or delay."

(Which by the way, is the first definition in the dictionary I'm using. Even before "as the last in a series of events or objects.")

[Ancalagon]

What I think will happen:

Meeting Xykon & Company at Girards Gate. Fight. Something happens to the gate. Durkon dies.

Order of the Stick flees, carrying the dead Durkon along with them (they, obviously, cannot resurrect him). The last gate is in the dwarven lands, thus Durkon (dead) enters the dwarven lands.
Xykon scrys on the order and says "Aha, the last gate is in the dwarven lands, let's go there!".
(Durkon might get resurrected).

Final confrontation between the order, linear guild, team evil, and everyone else over the gate in the dwarven lands.

Thus: Durkon comes posthumously to the dwarven homelands and death and destruction follow him.

[Selene]

Well, nowhere does it say the "Death and Destruction" return is the same return as the "Posthumously" one. He could return, bring death & destruction, and then return again later posthumously.

I think it would be funnier, though, if the High Priest of Odin had just been messing with Durkon and the Priest of Thor. :smalltongue:

[Ancalagon]

Well, nowhere does it say the "Death and Destruction" return is the same return as the "Posthumously" one. He could return, bring death & destruction, and then return again later posthumously.

Makes no sense. The oracle would have said something as "Yes, you will. But you also will be dead" or so and the surprise would be that there are actually two returns. The oracle prophecy will play out straight: Durkon will return, but will be dead.
And the other prophecy will also play out straight: Death and Destruction will follow (the dead) Durkon.

[pflare]

Isn't the last gate in the dwarven lands in the north? If it is then he and the rest of the OOTS could "bring" Xykon and his followers with them to the gate. Maybe Durkon will die in the epic final battle.

[Ancalagon]

Isn't the last gate in the dwarven lands in the north? If it is then he and the rest of the OOTS could "bring" Xykon and his followers with them to the gate. Maybe Durkon will die in the epic final battle.

Wasn't that what I wrote a bit above?

[Berserk Monk]

Yeah, Durkon's only coming home once and it'll be in the deep negative hit points.

[Selene]

Makes no sense. The oracle would have said something as "Yes, you will. But you also will be dead" or so and the surprise would be that there are actually two returns. The oracle prophecy will play out straight: Durkon will return, but will be dead.
And the other prophecy will also play out straight: Death and Destruction will follow (the dead) Durkon.

Durkon's question was "How will I finally be returnin' to me beloved Dwarven homelands?" Not "will I return." The Oracle doesn't seem like an elaborating kind of guy. He only had the "are you sure that's what you want to ask" talk with Roy so he wouldn't dangle him out the window again.

I still think it could go either way.

[Niburu]

Well, maybe he dies, returns to his homelands, then gets ressurected and brings destruction? The orcale never said he had to stay dead, just that he would be dead before he returned home. Maybe the only cleric the order can think of is the high cleric of thor, who doesn't realize what will happy if he raises Durkon

[73 Bits of Lint]

But I don't figure a happy ending for Elan, with all his friends death. I mean, Elan will be sad if he loses Roy, Durkon, Roy, V, and his very best friend Roy. And as everyone knows, one can't be sad and happy at the same time.
Roy is already back, and no one has said V has to die.
If Durkon dies, the Order could probably replace him with another Dwarven Cleric who looked similar and Elan wouldn't notice the change. Sort of like what you do with your little sister's hamsters.

[Zevox]

I can only really say one thing to suggestions like this:

I very much so doubt the fulfillment any of the Oracle's prophecies will rest on semantics. All of his prophecies thus far have been exactly what they seemed at first glance. Belkar kills the Oracle, Haley gets her voice back after taking a risk on a situation, V acquires massive arcane power via a deal with the devils after convincing herself to do so with a four-word statement, and Roy's prophecy is self-explanatory.

For Durkon's prophecy to hinge on the word "finally" or the lack of specifying that he won't be resurrected after his posthumous return seems pretty ridiculous to me given that. And, quite frankly, very dull. Which is the same reason I reject theories that Belkar won't die, or that Elan's "happy ending" will be his afterlife.

Zevox

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Durkon: I would say Durkon is not going to have as pleasant an end as Elan. I would say he will be transformed into some sort of undead creature. My reasoning for this is as follows:

The Origin of PCs reveals a prophesy that says that when Durkon returns home he will bring "death and destruction for us all."
In strip #331 the Oracle reveals that Durkon will be returning to his home posthumously
The main villian of the comic is Xykon, an evil undead sorcerer specialising in necromancy and the creation of undead

I don't think I need to spell this out.


Just my opinion on Durkon's prophecy.

Edit: Never mind. I didn't realize someone already posted this theory.

[rangermania]

now we have proficies for the death of 2 Pc's. who dies next?


My bet is on Nale...

[Tijne]

Xykon will almost get the next gate. The Order will be forced to destroy the gate to prevent him from using it's power. Durkon, will volunteer to stay behind to destroy the gate. Durkon gets blown up and dies, but they can't find his body easily within the sea of illusions that still exists. Unable to waste time searching for his body, they tell [someone local] to search for it and bring it with them to the dwarven home lands; they cannot waste anymore time since Xykon is already heading to the next gate.

Durkon will be found soon after the Order has left. He will be placed in a caskset. His casket will then be carried by a messenger by the name of Destruction who happens to ride a horse he named Death. Where he will then be raised by a cleric; probably the head cleric of thor or what not.

Durkon will have 'finally' returned to his homeland Posthumously, bringing both Death and Destruction.
End of Prophecy/ies.


That is.. assuming Durkon's home / homeland actually IS the dwarven lands...

[Ancalagon]

Durkon's question was "How will I finally be returnin' to me beloved Dwarven homelands?" Not "will I return." The Oracle doesn't seem like an elaborating kind of guy. He only had the "are you sure that's what you want to ask" talk with Roy so he wouldn't dangle him out the window again.

I still think it could go either way.

Hmm... I think the oracle is more the cryptic guy. If elaboration helps with that, it can also elaborate - a bit. ;)

[Selene]

Hmm... I think the oracle is more the cryptic guy. If elaboration helps with that, it can also elaborate - a bit. ;)

I think maybe we should just agree to disagree on the oracle. lol.

[Kupi]

It strikes me that if the prophecy about Durkon's return bringing death and destruction was not a prophecy made by the Oracle (who has a record for literal fulfillments), then it's entirely possible for it to be a more figurative prophecy. That is, Durkon's (posthumous) return will not be the direct cause of the death and destruction, it will merely correlate with it. Terrible things will happen to the dwarves when Durkon comes back; that's all there is to it.

Then again, I haven't read OtOoPCs, so what do I know? :smallsigh:

[Linkavitch]

Nope.

The OTHER Durkon Prophecy says that next time he (Durkon) enters his homelands, he wil bring death and destruction. He was casted away in a non-return mission, to avoid his return, and the consecuent death and destruction.


But, if they didn't send him away, then he couldn't come back, and he couldn't bring death and destruction with him, right? Maybe?

[Porthos]

But, if they didn't send him away, then he couldn't come back, and he couldn't bring death and destruction with him, right? Maybe?

A) That's why it's a Self Fulfilling Prophecy

and

B) The whole "not sending him away" bit was already covered in Origins. :smallwink:

Now one could say that The Gods/High Priests could have just told the Dwarves that if they booted out Durkon, then that would set a series of dominoes in place that would eventually lead to massive destruction of the Dwarven Homelands.

But what fun is that, storytelling speaking? :smalltongue:

More to the point (and I dread to bring up this argument again), maybe the Gods can't change Fate. While it's very in vogue for Western Cultures (amongst others) to say "Screw Fate" a lot of other cultures completely believed that one couldn't get out of ones destiny.

Funny thing about Ragnarök, for instance. It was fated to come. All the Gods knew it would come. And, and here's the kicker, they knew that the actions that they were doing would ensure that it would come. Yet they did it any way.

Why?

Well perhaps the alternative was worse. Perhaps in a tiny portion in the back of their minds they thought they could Screw Fate. Or perhaps they were just resigned to Fate and decided to play it out the best they could. Regardless the knowledge of the future didn't help The Gods. In fact, one could argue that the knowledge of various fated betrayals made them treat those people who were fated to betray them worse than they would have if they had not known of the future. And by treating them worse than they might have, they ensure the very betrayals that were fated to come.

Head spinning stuff, at times.

Then we get into the idea of, "I can only give True Prophecies, Not False Ones". This is the idea that whatever I say will set up a series of events that ensures it to happen (Self Fulfilling Prophecy). For instance, maybe the Northern Gods couldn't tell the Dwarven High Priests anything but something that would send Durkon away.

Consider this: High Priest of Odin gets a message that says, "The next time Durkon Thundershield leaves his homeland, he will bring death and destruction upon us all. So if you don't want this to happen, don't let him leave."

The High Priest thinks about this for a moment and agrees that Durkon can never leave. So he imprisons him, or something similar. Durkon eventually escapes. He then wanders around for a while, never meets up with Roy and eventually returns home.

AND. NOTHING. HAPPENS.

This would mean that the Prophecy was invalid and didn't come to pass. Which is fine, unless it is established that prophecies are always right. If so, then we have a problem. Durkon has returned, yet not brought the fated Death and Destruction. So, logically, the only way the prophecy could ever come to pass is if by acting upon it, it sets up the very prophecy that you were trying to avert.

Or, as someone once put it, "Tis risky business to screw with prophecy".

Thankfully, it makes for great storytelling. :smalltongue:

[Vemynal]

The most popular theory, I think, was that he'll be animated as a powerful undead, thus his return to homeland will be both posthumous, and will bring death and destruction.

i keep liking this prophecy ^_^

I just think it would be funny after Belkar and V's brush with evil if the most static and loyal character of the group had a complete personality overhaul and became a villain, even foreshadowed with Miko and Tsu^^

sadly i doubt itll ever happen

[skim172]

Just to focus on the semantics, "posthumous" literally means "after buried," meaning when the body's in the ground, so technically, the prophecy can't be fulfilled in a practical manner. :smallwink:

But of course, I doubt the Oracle dwells on semantics.

[KillianHawkeye]

after Belkar and V's brush with evil

After BELKAR's brush with evil??? Belkar IS Evil! Belkar only brushes with neutrality occaisionally!

[Kairamek]

[QUOTE=skim172;6528854]Just to focus on the semantics, "posthumous" literally means "after buried," meaning when the body's in the groundQUOTE]

No... No it does not. It means after DEATH, not after burial. Source: Googles 'define:word' feature, and confirmed at www.thefreedictionary.com as well as other online dictionaries.

Anyway, it's a word game. Durkon and crew will enter the dwarven lands as part of the threat to Kragar's gate. Xykon is death and distruction. And his final return will be after his death to be buried with his ancestors. Pretty straight foward and tricky.

[spargel]

I can only really say one thing to suggestions like this:

I very much so doubt the fulfillment any of the Oracle's prophecies will rest on semantics. All of his prophecies thus far have been exactly what they seemed at first glance. Belkar kills the Oracle, Haley gets her voice back after taking a risk on a situation, V acquires massive arcane power via a deal with the devils after convincing herself to do so with a four-word statement, and Roy's prophecy is self-explanatory.


Haley had a prophecy?

[Kish]

Haley had a prophecy?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html Yes.

[skim172]

No... No it does not. It means after DEATH, not after burial. Source: Googles 'define:word' feature, and confirmed at www.thefreedictionary.com as well as other online dictionaries.

Anyway, it's a word game. Durkon and crew will enter the dwarven lands as part of the threat to Kragar's gate. Xykon is death and distruction. And his final return will be after his death to be buried with his ancestors. Pretty straight foward and tricky.

I meant etymologically.

"Post" - meaning "after" or "following."

"Humous" - meaning "earth"

Literally read, it means "after one is in the earth."

Of course, our modern definition is "after death." Perhaps I should've been more clear.


Although, interestingly enough, "posthumous" originates as the Latin word, "postumus," which meant "last born, born after the death of one's father, born after the making of a will, or last and final." But at some point, Latin writers began spelling it "posthumus," which means exclusively, "after death." From that, we derived the English spelling.

...

Okay, "interesting" is a judgment call.

[pflare]

Wasn't that what I wrote a bit above?

Sorry I skipped over your spoiler my bad. But I like the way you think haha.

[Selene]

Skim, are you going somewhere with this? Because the fact that some Latin writers assumed the word had something to do with earth and changed the spelling seems irrelevant to the definition. No offense. Just saying.


Because of its use in connection with death, however, later Latin writers decided that the last part of the word must have to do with humus, "earth," or humāre, "to bury," and began spelling the word posthumus. This form of the Latin word was borrowed into English, being first recorded in a work composed before 1464.

[Ted The Bug]

IMHO, it only means one thing: if the Order goes to the Dwarven lands, Durkon will either die beforehand or stay behind.
Otherwise, it could mean anything. He could die and be raised as a ghoul, join Xykon's army, and invade his homeland, it could mean that he dies of old age and never had the change to return home, or it could simply mean that he dies in battle and his body is shipping to his ancestors' graves for burial.

[Lorinthius]

I really only wanted to point out that there are different interpretations of the word "finally" and that it does leave a window open for Durkon to return home (possibly bringing death and destruction) before he returns home posthumously.

When asking questions of a literally minded oracle, every interpretation of every word is pretty much equally valid and should be considered carefully.

Of course, Roy has shown us what can happen when you consider your question too carefully.

When it comes to this oracle, I don't think it's a good idea to discount any possible interpretation of prophecy until it actually happens.

But I have learned in my time of lurking here that prophecy discussions can get out of hand, so I'll just keep my thoughts under wraps for now.