Most under-CRed challenge fun!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Find hilarious, terrifying, plain evil or otherwise interesting challenges that blatantly exploit the CR rules to hose the party and post them here. :smalltongue:
Bonus points if the challenges don't contain infinite loops or use the CharOp boards. Here's an example;

The Lady's Welcoming Mat CR 8
This small, brown, woolen carpet is three feet long and two feet wide, with the legend "Welcome to Sigil" written on it. Stepping on or attempting to pass through the portal it has been set before means you're Mazed, like the spell. Escaping the Maze is quite easy-you can just wait it out if you can't find your way through-but sadly repositions you at the exact place you vanished from and thus you're immediately mazed again. :smallcool:
Trap; proximity trigger (alarm); automatic reset; spell effect (Maze, 13th-level wizard, no save); Search DC 32; Disable Device DC 32. Cost: 45,500 gp, 3,640 XP.


Ceiling of Drowning CR 12
This open and featureless room is not as innocuous at it seems; its walls, ceiling and floor are made of transdimensional iron under the thin layer of stone they have been covered with as a disguise and are thus a barrier even to incorporeal, ethereal, shadow or blinking creatures. If a group sets off the trap, the ceiling falls on their heads, automatically dealing 8d6 crushing damage. Because the ceiling weighs 7 tons, it will almost always automatically pin most player characters due to sheer weight; they simply won't have enough strength to push it off.
Once the ceiling is down and touching the victims, water magically appears and fills all open space in the room. The victims, trapped and unable to breathe, quickly die a horrible death.
CR 9; mechanical; location trigger; repair reset; ceiling moves down (12d6, crush); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-by-10-ft. room); never miss; onset delay (1 round); Search DC 30; Disable Device DC 30. Market Price: 22,600 gp.
CR +2; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; spell effect (create water, 1st-level cleric, no save) Cost: 500 gp, 40 XP.
CR +1 Transdimensional iron covering walls, ceiling and floor (scroll of transdimensional wall of iron-used, paid workers to cut and attach to room) Market Price: 3.000 gp.

[Sinfire Titan]

CR 11 Adamantine Horror.


MDJ, Disintegrate, and Implosion at will at CL 20 (post-errata).

[Flickerdart]

Adamantine Horror. Just...Adamantine Horror.

Edit: Ninjas. Just ninjas.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Yeah but the adamantine horror is mostly a close-range horror. A party that sees it from more than 75 feet away could destroy it with orbs/arrows before it has a chance to attack.

Now, if you put the Summon Golem spell on a CR 10 at-will trap... :smalltongue:

[Sinfire Titan]

Yeah but the adamantine horror is mostly a close-range horror. A party that sees it from more than 75 feet away could destroy it with orbs/arrows before it has a chance to attack.

Now, if you put the Summon Golem spell on a CR 10 at-will trap... :smalltongue:

Disintegrate has a range of Medium. Total range at CL 20th is 300ft. The other two options may be limited, but it can burrow underground using Disintegrate. It then pops up and kills the party after breaking their swag.

[Lamech]

Dragon (or any high HD monster) + leadership. Guess what happens to CR if you add to your forces with your own power? Epic leadership at old or very old or where ever.

Efreet + non-giene ally: Everyone make a saving throw or be sent into the sun, then everyone make a saving throw or be sent to the far plane, then everyone make a saving throw or be sent to a sphere of annilation. Please note those all come from a one use SLA. CR: 8+a bit

Pun-pun.

Dweamerkeeper/Incantrix/IotSFV

Kobold with four adept levels. Make sure to give them sudden maximize, and empower, and dragonwrought and spell focus. Then hit them with burning hands "Everyone takes 23 damage, reflex for half, DC 18." CR: 1

Give everything a level of survivor. Plus one half CR? Rounds to 0.

Wish trap.

Nightmare trap.

Gate trap.

Ice assassin Trap

[Eldariel]

Meh, ever since someone pointed me towards Gibbering Mouther (the MMI version), I've been enthralled with the deadly CR 8 version ambushing the party in a dungeon-type environment:
Large Aberration
HP: 12d8+96 = 150 (with DR 5/Bludgeoning)
AC: 10 - 1 Dex - 1 Size + 10 Natural Armor = 18
Speed: 20', 30' swim
Initiative: +3

Str 20 (10 base + 8 size + 2 standard array)
Dex 8 (12 base - 2 size - 2 standard array)
Con 26 (22 base + 4 size + 0 standard array)
Int 3 (4 base - 1 standard array)
Wis 14 (12 base + 1 standard array + 1 levels)
Cha 16 (12 base + 3 standard array + 1 levels)

Fort +12
Ref +3
Will +10

BAB +9

Gibbering DC 21 Will-save
Spittle DC 24 Fort-save
Engulf DC 23 Ref-save
Mouth Ripping Off DC 21 Str-check

Attacks: 6x +13 Bite for 1d2+5 & Imp. Grapple (also Blood Drain) + 1x +7 Ranged Touch 1d4 Acid + Blindness
Grapple: +19 (9 BAB + 5 Str + 4 Size + 1 Sphinx Claws)

Skills:
Spot +21 (enough to see still invisible characters rather consistently), Listen +2, Swim +13

Trait:
Quick

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Ability Focus: Gibbering
Improved Toughness
Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws
Open Least Chakra


CR 5+1 size+2 (8 Aberration HD increases) = 8

The one-two-three punch of Gibbering, Spittle on the not-confused ranged characters and then charge -> full attack -> eat someone melee is just incredible.

[sofawall]

Most definitely used some sort of Char Op, but what about That Damn Crab?

[RandomNPC]

ok, we need more of these, i was going to toss out That Darn Crab, Pun-Pun and the Horrors.

well, the horror.

Great news: my party gets to meet the horrors soon. It'll be fun. (yes i plan on playing them with inteligent DMing, not homicidal DMing)

[The_Snark]

Phasms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) can be brutal, depending on how far the DM is willing to go to find Large forms for them to transform into. A hydra or fire giant is nothing to laugh at for a level 7 party... but what if it's seen a marilith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith)? Cornugon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon)? If the DM hates you enough, they can even give it knowledge of epic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/sirrush.htm), which will wipe your EL 7-8 party off the map. That Alternate Form ability is probably the most unbalanced polymorph effect of the game.

Advanced assassin vines can also be pretty brutal, although they're slow enough that a non-surprised party can keep their distance and throw torches at it until it dies. Problem is, they're meant to be ambush monsters... A hateful DM can compound the problem by adding templates: a 16 HD assassin vine with the elder eidolon template (Lords of Madness) added has immunity to magic, plus enough damage reduction/fast repair that it'd be really hard to wear it down from a distance. It's CR 10, but CR 10 melee characters will have trouble with it, and the spellcasters can't directly help... It actually makes a great mid-level eldritch horror: tough enough to be a proper horror from beyond time, but slow enough that your characters can run away (unless they can't get out of grapples).

[Myrmex]

The Battle Horrors from Lost Empires of Faerun are pretty baller. They're intelligent, animated suits of armor that get some spell immunity and can also cast some useful spells.

The Banelor, also from the same book I believe, is a CR 8 Naga that casts as a wizard8/cleric8, and gets to cast one spell/round as a free action. It also has poison, good HD, and decent melee capabilities.

[Oslecamo]

Modrons.

http://www.thesuperest.com/heroes/g07_d20.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a

Available in various levels, tons of immunities, including crits and mind control, more natural attacks that you can count, good stats, and:


-The lower levels have save or paralyze breaths.
-The higher levels cast as clerics two levels above their own CR!


Giving Ur-Priest to a monster with lots of HD, counting it as a nonassociated class can also be quite nasty.

[GreyMantle]

En garde, bitches. (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=21030&start=0)

(this is That Damn Crab, and it will make you cry. like a baby)

[FMArthur]

Beholder Mage insanity is quite under-CRed. It's a class any Beholder can take that gives wizard/sorceror casting at an accelerate rate, with spontaneous casting and number of spell slots like a sorceror, but can learn any amount of spells and cast them as free actions out of its eyestalks.

[hamishspence]

Yes: Compare That Damn Crab to later published version:

Online version- That Damn Crab:

Monstrous Crab
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 7d8+35 (66 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+19
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+9, improved grab, powerful claws
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 21, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: --
Feats: --
Environment: Temperate coastal
Organization: Solitary, pair, or swarm (6-10)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-10 HD (Large), 11-21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

Combat

A monstrous crab is straightforward in combat. It lumbers forth toward the nearest target and attacks with its claws. Once a monstrous crab has a morsel or creature in each claw, it retreats into the water to feed. Creatures held in its claws when it does so soon drown if they can't breathe water.

Constrict (Ex): With a successful grapple check, a monstrous crab can crush a grabbed opponent, dealing 1d8+9 points of bludgeoning damage.

Improved Grab (Ex): If a monstrous crab hits an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself with a claw attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it also constricts on the same round.

Powerful Claws (Ex): A monstrous crab always applies 1.5 times its Strength modifier to damage inflicted with its claws. Additionally, it gains a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.


Stormwrack version:

Monstrous Crab
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 6d8+9 (36 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+17
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d8+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d8+5, improved grab, powerful claws
Special Qualities: Amphibious, low light vision., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 12, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +0, Spot +4
Feats: Toughness (B)
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary or colony (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-11 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: --


Constrict (Ex): With a successful grapple check, a monstrous crab deals damge equal to twice its normal claw damge plus its Strength bonus.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a monstrous crab must first hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Monstrous crabs have a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

Skills: A monstrous crab has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks.

Stormwrack one is quite a bit weaker, but higher CR.

[Bagera]

First off there is the deck of many things, which in my experience has always been a trap guaranteed to kill about half the party disguised as treasure.

Also a 20x20 room which seals once the pcs get to the door out, and has a drowned buried under the floor in a shallow grave.

[Hyozo]

Skurrids. Two of them, at first level, like the book suggests. They got the surprise round, they are built to do that. The almost dropped the entire party into negatives right there. Then they won initiative, they're built to do that too. :smalleek:

[Innis Cabal]

Kobold with four adept levels. Make sure to give them sudden maximize, and empower, and dragonwrought and spell focus. Then hit them with burning hands "Everyone takes 23 damage, reflex for half, DC 18." CR: 1

Except it would be CR 5, not CR 1. As class levels add a CR per.

[Fcannon]

Except it would be CR 5, not CR 1. As class levels add a CR per.

3 actually, NPC class levels only count for 1/2.

[Ganurath]

Challenge Rating: Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.

I would like to add Spider Swarms to the CR 1 slot.

[tyckspoon]

3 actually, NPC class levels only count for 1/2.

And Kobolds are only CR 1/4 to start with. It's more D&D Math (tm), but officially, CR 1/4 + CR 3 = CR 1. Kobolds with class levels are the purest example of how the CR system is borked, I think.

[quick_comment]

And Kobolds are only CR 1/4 to start with. It's more D&D Math (tm), but officially, CR 1/4 + CR 3 = CR 1. Kobolds with class levels are the purest example of how the CR system is borked, I think.

Kobolds are borked to begin with.

Another under cr'ed challenge

A nymph is CR 7. They cast as level 7 druids. Level 7 druids are also CR 7. So a nymph is a CR 7 challenge with enhanced saves, a blinding gaze attack and the ability to stun the players at will.

[jseah]

Sharns from Faerun are EVIL. CR8 IIRC and I can't remember the source but...

Two standard actions per round (!!!)
Hex portals (melee attack (including spells) up to 120ft away)
- With pretty good basic attacks to go with it, I can't recall if it has Imp. Grab
Casting as both sorcerer and cleric advancing as HD
Bunch of misc. immunities.

But it's essentially a double casting monster with 3.0 Haste and automatic reach spell.
Played rightly, a few Sharns will easily overpower everything in their way.

[Superglucose]

Kobolds are borked to begin with.

Another under cr'ed challenge

A nymph is CR 7. They cast as level 7 druids. Level 7 druids are also CR 7. So a nymph is a CR 7 challenge with enhanced saves, a blinding gaze attack and the ability to stun the players at will.

CR with PC class levels is amazingly borked. Just look at Human Wizard 1 vs standard Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Wizard 1/Cleric 1. Assuming the human wizard loses initiative to any of them, it's down in one round. Compare that to Fighter 7 vs Fighter 7/Cleric 7/Wizard 7/Rogue 7, where the fighter may be able to do some damage, but this is still a walk for the party.

It starts making sense again when you use multiple creatures though... Fighter 5/Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Rogue 5 vs Fighter 7/Cleric 7/Wizard 7/Rogue 7 is much less of a walk.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anything with a lot of racial HD for a low CR, and add nonassociated class levels. For example, a Dragonkin from the Draconomicon is a CR 2, 7 HD bruiser. Add (Stalwart) Sorcerer 8 for +4 CR (rounded down from +4.5), which also grants the Elite array for free, and you have the following at CR 6:
Tenss Pilar Ksiliss
Dragonkin Sorcerer 8
Large Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian)
HD 7d8+8d4+61 HP 116
Initiative +3
Speed 20 ft., fly 40 ft. (good)
AC 27 (+7 natural, +4 Mage Armor, +4 Shield, +3 Dex, -1 Size)
Touch AC 12 Flat-Footed AC 20
Base Attack/Grapple +11/+21
Attack +1 Glaive +18 melee, 1d10+10 20/x3, or claw +16 melee, 1d6+6
Full Attack +1 Glaive +18/+13/+8 melee, 1d10+10 20/x3, or 2 claws +16 melee, 1d6+6
Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks Rake 1d6+3, Spells
Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft., Detect Magic
Saves Fort +7 Reflex +10 Will +12
Abilities Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18
Skills Spot +8, Listen +8, Concentration +8, Bluff +10, Spellcraft +5
Feats Combat Reflexes, Large and In Charge, Flyby Attack, Weapon Focus: Glaive, Practiced Spellcaster, Somatic Weaponry, Improved Familiar
CR 6
Alignment Chaotic Evil
Treasure +1 Glaive, Spell Component Pouch,

T.P.K. loves to frequent towns in a friendlier form, such as that of a Centaur. He typically has magic items and other adventuring equipment to sell, and is always anxious to hear of his customers' exploits. He'll usually ask them about what monsters they've defeated, and asks how they could have accomplished such a task to learn of their capabilities. He also tries to find out where they're headed and what sort of adventures they have planned. He typically follows adventurers out of town invisibly, flying far enough overhead to avoid detection. T.P.K. will wait outside whatever monster lair they enter, and after they emerge injured and low on spells he waits until nightfall and ambushes them at their camp.
He speaks Common, Draconic, Sylvan, and Elven.

Detect Magic (Su): T.P.K. can use Detect Magic as a free action, once per round.

Rake: When attacking from the air, T.P.K. can make two additional rake attacks (+17 melee, 1d6+3).

Sorcerer Spells/Day: 6/7/7/6/4, DC 14 + spell level, caster level 12
Sorcerer Spells Known: 8/5/3/1/1
0- Read Magic, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Message, Mending, Mage Hand, Arcane Mark, Acid Splash
1st- Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, Grease, Charm Person
2nd- Invisibility, Alter Self, Glitterdust
3rd- Stinking Cloud
4th- Summon Undead IV

Tactics: Prior to combat, cast Mage Armor, Shield, and Invisibility, and then use Summon Undead to get four Troll Skeletons.
Surprise Round: Order the skeletons in to attack from one side, fly overhead on the opposite side, and cast Stinking Cloud on his victims. Hopefully they'll be boxed in by the skeletons, so anyone trying to flee must run past him.
Round 1: Cast Glitterdust on as many adventurers as he can, AoO with Large and In Charge to knock anyone fleeing back into the cloud.
Round 2: Cast Grease or Glitterdust to disrupt his opponents, or Stinking Cloud again if necessary (i.e. if it's windy), or another Summon Undead for more Troll Skeletons, continue using AoOs to keep opponents in the cloud.
Round 3+: Full attack anyone who's outside the cloud from far enough overhead to avoid their attacks, or cast more of his favorite spells. Continue trying to keep the adventurers contained within the cloud, try to always have at least three skeletons up, try to focus attacks on one of them at a time targeting healers first.
If they prove too difficult to defeat he casts Invisibility and retreats, then finds a safe place to rest and regain his spells while his familiar interrupts their sleep throughout the night.

Familiar: Dastard, Quasit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#quasit) familiar; HP 58, Claws +16, Bite +11, Fort +4, Reflex +10, Will +12, poison DC 19, AC +4 via Mage Armor, skills as master's ranks if higher. In the initial battle he will use Cause Fear on everyone on the first round and then go hide.

[Irreverent Fool]

Dragons with metabreath, especially Clinging Breath and Maximize Breath with flyby attack.

The Imbrandlin from Monsters of Faerun is a 10-HD Gargantuan dragon with a CR of 5 and an SR of 20. The saving grace here is that it cannot fly and has a movement speed of 20. It's still hard to picture a level 5 party standing much of a chance.

Actually, just Dragons in general, really. That is, when they don't just hang around in a cave rustling their wings uselessly and waiting for a band of well-armed adventurers to come kill them.

Wights can be very deadly due to large numbers in hide and sneak combined with a decent intellect and an ENERGY DRAINING ATTACK AT CR 3. That's just... mean.

obnoxious
sig

[Ganurath]

Take a Choker, and replace Stealthy and Lightning Reflexes with Martial Studies for Hatchling's Flame and Sudden Leap. Move in, Hatchling's Flame, move out, Sudden Leap to safety. Rinse and repeat until prey is dead meat.

[lord_khaine]

Take a Choker, and replace Stealthy and Lightning Reflexes with Martial Studies for Hatchling's Flame and Sudden Leap. Move in, Hatchling's Flame, move out, Sudden Leap to safety. Rinse and repeat until prey is dead meat.

Thats hardly a big challenge, all you have to do to either move back, so there isnt any safe positions it can jump to, or ready an action to smash it when it moves in.

[Dixieboy]

Modrons.


Modrons, while being awesome, would work quite poorly as adversaries for your party.
Since they are being of pure law.
Unless you had them hunt your players down because they sneezed 0.2 seconds before they got permission in mechanus (I think the plane is called)

[Ganurath]

Thats hardly a big challenge, all you have to do to either move back, so there isnt any safe positions it can jump to, or ready an action to smash it when it moves in.Hmm. Shadow Jaunt and Cloak of Deception, then?

[Dhavaer]

Take a Choker, and replace Stealthy and Lightning Reflexes with Martial Studies for Hatchling's Flame and Sudden Leap. Move in, Hatchling's Flame, move out, Sudden Leap to safety. Rinse and repeat until prey is dead meat.

Wouldn't you need a lot of chokers for that to work effectively?

[Ganurath]

Wouldn't you need a lot of chokers for that to work effectively?Which is why I later modified it with Shadow Jaunt and Cloak of Deception. Charge, Cloak, Jaunt into hiding. Rinse, repeat.

[Dhavaer]

Which is why I later modified it with Shadow Jaunt and Cloak of Deception. Charge, Cloak, Jaunt into hiding. Rinse, repeat.

You'd still need a lot of chokers to do the 'repeat' bit, since Martial Study doesn't give you a recovery method.

[Cyclocone]

Kobolds are borked to begin with.

Another under cr'ed challenge

A nymph is CR 7. They cast as level 7 druids. Level 7 druids are also CR 7. So a nymph is a CR 7 challenge with enhanced saves, a blinding gaze attack and the ability to stun the players at will.

Another one: Black Ethergaunts are CR 17, but they cast as level 17 wizards, have a +20 racial Int bonus, immunity to spells level 0-6, Dominate Monster 3/day, a gaze attack and d8 HD.

[Oslecamo]

And Kobolds are only CR 1/4 to start with. It's more D&D Math (tm), but officially, CR 1/4 + CR 3 = CR 1. Kobolds with class levels are the purest example of how the CR system is borked, I think.

You're doing your math wrong.

A kobold with NPC levels is CR=number of NPC levels-3.

A kobold with PC levels is CR= number of class levels.

A kobold warrior 1 is CR 1/4. A kobold fighter 1 is CR 1.

Cyclocone: A wizard 17 has the equipment of a lv 17 NPC. The ethergaunt has only random treasure for CR17.

The extra equipment easily makes up for the lack of racial abilities.

[Superglucose]

Another one: Black Ethergaunts are CR 17, but they cast as level 17 wizards, have a +20 racial Int bonus, immunity to spells level 0-6, Dominate Monster 3/day, a gaze attack and d8 HD.
Yup. That makes sense.

/me kicks the stupid ECL rules for PC levels to the kurb. And stay there!

But it's actually much worse than that.

Planetar. CR 16, casts as level 17 clerics, plus 23 wis, plus DR/evil, immunity to acid, cold, and petrification, regen 10, resistance to electricity/fire 10, spell resistance 30, BAB +14, and +19 natural armor. Oh, and this:


Spell-Like Abilities

At will—continual flame, dispel magic, holy smite (DC 20), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration (DC 18), remove curse (DC 19), remove disease (DC 19), remove fear (DC 17), speak with dead (DC 19); 3/day—blade barrier (DC 22), flame strike (DC 21), power word stun, raise dead, waves of fatigue; 1/day—earthquake (DC 24), greater restoration (DC 23), mass charm monster (DC 24), waves of exhaustion. Caster level 17th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
The following abilities are always active on the planetar’s person, as the spells (caster level 17th)

detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 20), see invisibility, and true seeing. They can be dispelled, but the planetar can reactivate them as a free action.
I beat your CR 17 with a CR 16. Planetars are NASTY.

Oh, and just for kicks, they also have Change Shape. I hope you have true seeing up!

P.s. I love this description for the Sloars:
"Even more fearsome than their +5 dancing greatswords are their +2 composite longbows that create any sort of slaying arrow when drawn."

p.p.s.
I think it's really stupid that most races (humans, for example) have a CR equal to their PC levels, but they give Planetars 17 levels of cleric (except better saves and bab, iirc) as well as some seriously nice abilities, and call it ECL 16. So yeah, Planetar: CR 16. Level 17 human cleric: cr 17

p.p.p.s.
Divine Power boosts the BAB from 14 to 17, right?

[Oslecamo]

I think it's really stupid that most races (humans, for example) have a CR equal to their PC levels, but they give Planetars 17 levels of cleric (except better saves and bab, iirc) as well as some seriously nice abilities, and call it ECL 16. So yeah, Planetar: CR 16. Level 17 human cleric: cr 17


And I'll say it again, humanoid races with class levels get NPC gear of their level while the planetar is stuck with random trasure. What's planetar gonna do when it faces the human cleric loaded with nightsticks, rods and scrolls? The planetar also has two less feats, meaning the human cleric easily overloads it with metamagic tricks.

The human cleric also gets to pick two domains of his choice, and even better, to take some borked Prc and call it a day.

[tiercel]

Shadows.

As scary as level drain is, the Strength damage from shadows goes off *touch* attacks, which land much more easily on most characters. A pack of shadows is brutal. Plus shadows are annoying as all heck due to that 50% miss chance vs almost everything due to being incorporeal. (And, clocking in at a mere CR 3, your PCs could run into one before magic weapons can be taken for granted, which makes life much more difficult.)

For particular viciousness, have shadows attack a bunch of weak NPCs around the PCs -- shadows spawn (and in 1d4 rounds) after all. If you are particularly vicious, dump shadows into an urban environment. Actually, this is broken -- once you get more than one or two shadows in a major population center, without immediate on-the-spot intervention, you're pretty much looking at shadowpocalypse, as shadows exponentially spawn faster than they can possibly be killed.

If you want to be really mean, greater shadows come with Spring Attack "out of the box" -- spring attacking to/from the walls, ceiling, floor... yeah.

------

This is one way to "break" CR/EL -- not with a single creature (though some of them have broken CRs -- Juggernaut, anyone?), but with a group which have abilities that stack particularly well. A single CR 8 erinyes may not be an engine of destruction on her own, but get a flock together, all of whom can quite happily unholy blight at will.... man, forget the longbows or the ropes, catch the party in fireball formation with four such devils and all good aligned PCs are looking at 10d8-20d8 untyped damage not subject to Evasion every round (though subject to Mettle, which is rather less common), plus very likely being sickened (-2 to pretty much everything, including saves in future rounds) every round. Ouch. That "EL 12" is a lot worse than most EL/CR 12 encounters one could throw together, and it only gets worse as you stack on more erinyes.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Oscelamo;
The planetar's or Ethergaunt's racial abilities far outstrip the NPC treasure values. Remember, NPC treasure values are several times lower than PC values. Say you have CR 16-17. That's what, 30.000 GP in treasure? 40.000? That's a +6 enhancement to intelligence. The Ethergaunt already gets a +20 racial.

[Deadmeat.GW]

And I'll say it again, humanoid races with class levels get NPC gear of their level while the planetar is stuck with random trasure. What's planetar gonna do when it faces the human cleric loaded with nightsticks, rods and scrolls? The planetar also has two less feats, meaning the human cleric easily overloads it with metamagic tricks.

The human cleric also gets to pick two domains of his choice, and even better, to take some borked Prc and call it a day.

I am not sure but if your PC cleric has not got something to prevent him from being dispelled he is in serious trouble, at will...dispell...

That is pretty nasty and we would supposedly put him facing a lvl 16 party.
Once a day mass charm alone could cause serious trouble on a party unless you min-max just to stop charm.

The combination of Blade Barier, exhaustion spells, mass charm, dispell at will and Invisibility at will are quite dangerous. Used intelligently you could wipe a party on that.

[FlawedParadigm]

Modrons, while being awesome, would work quite poorly as adversaries for your party.
Since they are being of pure law.
Unless you had them hunt your players down because they sneezed 0.2 seconds before they got permission in mechanus (I think the plane is called)

You...have trouble imagining PCs breaking laws? I should like to meet your group, sir. I have yet to run a game for a group that didn't perform at least three acts of vigilante justice (usually murdering someone who could have been taken alive in the process) by level three. For real fun, try having an NPC merchant cheat them, even just a few silvers, let alone gold. In my experience, PCs being cheated will never take it, and if attempts to haggle won't work for whatever reason, they generally drop down to threats, theft, or assault within a few rounds. This happens considerably less if there's a Paladin in the group, but from my findings, unless a Paladin or NPC (or DMPC) actively keeps a close eye on the group's activities, most groups will default to lawlessness out of convenience any time they think they can get away with it, even without you provoking them.

I even had one group react with shock and outrage when their characters were put on trial for killing a low level guard who got mouthy with them because they were trying to enter a city at night. One of the characters had recently been knighted, and would be damned if some lowly peasant was going to tell him he couldn't enter the city at night. Not that he gave the guard time to explain that the reason the city was denying all entrance at night had been because of a lycanthrope infestation...granted, the knight himself didn't do the killing - the rogue slipped behind the guard while no one was paying attention to him and garroted the guard. He still ended up imprisoned for months with the rest of the group, stripped of his title, and the rogue hanged. That effectively ended the campaign. Apparently PCs are supposed to be above the law.

So...yeah. I'd like to meet these paragons you play with. :smalltongue:

[Dixieboy]

You...have trouble imagining PCs breaking laws? I should like to meet your group, sir. I have yet to run a game for a group that didn't perform at least three acts of vigilante justice (usually murdering someone who could have been taken alive in the process) by level three. For real fun, try having an NPC merchant cheat them, even just a few silvers, let alone gold. In my experience, PCs being cheated will never take it, and if attempts to haggle won't work for whatever reason, they generally drop down to threats, theft, or assault within a few rounds. This happens considerably less if there's a Paladin in the group, but from my findings, unless a Paladin or NPC (or DMPC) actively keeps a close eye on the group's activities, most groups will default to lawlessness out of convenience any time they think they can get away with it, even without you provoking them.

I even had one group react with shock and outrage when their characters were put on trial for killing a low level guard who got mouthy with them because they were trying to enter a city at night. One of the characters had recently been knighted, and would be damned if some lowly peasant was going to tell him he couldn't enter the city at night. Not that he gave the guard time to explain that the reason the city was denying all entrance at night had been because of a lycanthrope infestation...granted, the knight himself didn't do the killing - the rogue slipped behind the guard while no one was paying attention to him and garroted the guard. He still ended up imprisoned for months with the rest of the group, stripped of his title, and the rogue hanged. That effectively ended the campaign. Apparently PCs are supposed to be above the law.

So...yeah. I'd like to meet these paragons you play with. :smalltongue:
Lawbreaking isn't really the problem here.

Modrons don't leave Mechanus . (Still not sure about the name)

And even if they did, they'd have to sign approximately 1 billion forms.

Meaning that the PC's will have died of aging. :smallbiggrin:

'sides
Modrons don't care much about our plane.

[Cyclocone]

Lawbreaking isn't really the problem here.

Modrons don't leave Mechanus . (Still not sure about the name)

And even if they did, they'd have to sign approximately 1 billion forms.

Meaning that the PC's will have died of aging. :smallbiggrin:

'sides
Modrons don't care much about our plane.

There's Exiled Modrons. They're actually a pretty good (read: cheesy) wizard race, assuming you can buy off the +1 LA and have some way to work around the 'flat-footed-until-2nd-turn' thing.:smallsmile:

[John Campbell]

You...have trouble imagining PCs breaking laws? I should like to meet your group, sir. I have yet to run a game for a group that didn't perform at least three acts of vigilante justice (usually murdering someone who could have been taken alive in the process) by level three. For real fun, try having an NPC merchant cheat them, even just a few silvers, let alone gold. In my experience, PCs being cheated will never take it, and if attempts to haggle won't work for whatever reason, they generally drop down to threats, theft, or assault within a few rounds. This happens considerably less if there's a Paladin in the group, but from my findings, unless a Paladin or NPC (or DMPC) actively keeps a close eye on the group's activities, most groups will default to lawlessness out of convenience any time they think they can get away with it, even without you provoking them.

And the main effect of including a party cop is to cause the group to resent his presence, to do things behind his back, and, frequently, to plot ways to make him fall and/or get killed. If the party cop is a DMPC, that reaction is strengthened by at least an order of magnitude.

Our current DM insists on using DMPCs, and he's The Guy Who Always Plays Paladins. (Even in systems that don't have Paladins.) I've told him straight out that if he forces another party cop on us in the new campaign we'll be starting shortly that I'm not even going to wait for an excuse; I'm just going to kill it. I'm sure I'll have the active assistance of at least two of the other PCs, and while the others may not help, I don't think they'll try to stop me, either.

[Choco]

You...have trouble imagining PCs breaking laws? I should like to meet your group, sir. I have yet to run a game for a group that didn't perform at least three acts of vigilante justice (usually murdering someone who could have been taken alive in the process) by level three. For real fun, try having an NPC merchant cheat them, even just a few silvers, let alone gold. In my experience, PCs being cheated will never take it, and if attempts to haggle won't work for whatever reason, they generally drop down to threats, theft, or assault within a few rounds. This happens considerably less if there's a Paladin in the group, but from my findings, unless a Paladin or NPC (or DMPC) actively keeps a close eye on the group's activities, most groups will default to lawlessness out of convenience any time they think they can get away with it, even without you provoking them.

I even had one group react with shock and outrage when their characters were put on trial for killing a low level guard who got mouthy with them because they were trying to enter a city at night. One of the characters had recently been knighted, and would be damned if some lowly peasant was going to tell him he couldn't enter the city at night. Not that he gave the guard time to explain that the reason the city was denying all entrance at night had been because of a lycanthrope infestation...granted, the knight himself didn't do the killing - the rogue slipped behind the guard while no one was paying attention to him and garroted the guard. He still ended up imprisoned for months with the rest of the group, stripped of his title, and the rogue hanged. That effectively ended the campaign. Apparently PCs are supposed to be above the law.

So...yeah. I'd like to meet these paragons you play with. :smalltongue:

Oh man, brings back memories... Especially certain Chaotic Stupid players (I say players instead of characters because ALL of their characters are always of the Chaotic Stupid variety....) that keep getting pissed when they get killed for being, well, stupid. I go through GREAT lengths to get the point across that <insert NPC/monster/powerful ruler that is currently friendly/indifferent here> not only has the ability to wipe the floor with the whole party (or at least order someone else to do so), but also has a bad temper, and yet they STILL go out of their way to piss it off, and act surprised at the consequences. I even usually give them at least 3 chances too. Honestly, the only reason they are still around is because of OOC relationships and comedy value :smalltongue:

The game I am currently a player in (same group) I made the stupid mistake of creating a lawful character. I had to ditch him shortly afterward and create a chaotic character, once me and the DM realized that my char had literally NO reason to keep traveling with the party...

Anyway, on the topic of over-CR, most of the creatures under CR 10 that have Save or Die (or petrify, etc.) attacks/abilities are IMO overpowered to anyone who is not a min-maxer. Especially if the PC's play in character and more often than not don't know about the SoD attack. One or two of them almost always end up dying.

[theMycon]

I go through GREAT lengths to get the point across that <insert NPC/monster/powerful ruler that is currently friendly/indifferent here> not only has the ability to wipe the floor with the whole party (or at least order someone else to do so), but also has a bad temper, and yet they STILL go out of their way to piss it off, and act surprised at the consequences.
I once had a DM whose entire plot consisted of this. Nothing was ever explained, there were just a handful of ridiculously powerful NPCs running around doing mysterious things, with no hint as to who/what was good & bad for the party in the long run, and we fought unassociated random battles while one or two of them stood on the sidelines and talked about how powerful they are. And a bunch of cool landscape we couldn't look at closer because it was too dangerous.

Any attempts to clarify, or ask "what are these dozens of mysterious artifacts you have us lugging around, that all the NPCs want but seem entirely useless to us?" were met with a mere "stop asking" and occasionally your character becoming mysteriously ill or cursed. He dropped them all on my character as "the most trustworthy" and then started giving everyone else random 60K+ wondrous items around level 3.

I waited 'til the next time three or more of them were in the same room at the same time, then started handing out artifacts like candy- making sure everyone got someone else's favorite, and then went into a bidding war with the rest.

If I recall correctly, the entire earth was destroyed.

[Anxe]

^Musta been some important artifacts.

For another under CRed critter I present the Feral Yowler. I sent two of these CR 5 monsters at party of 6 level 6's. Two of the party members died and the others ran off to let the Yowlers eat their fill.

[oxinabox]

Kraken CR12
Slow (20 ft/round) but can stop i's fpor from escaping as once perday it can use controll weather and controll wind as a spell like ability.
and long range.

Each round make
2 grapples with tenticals at 60 ft range
6 grapples with arms at 30 ft range (pre errata it must have been the other way round...)
and Bite at 15 ft range

grapple is at +44.
If it hits you atomatically do damage.

if i hadn't have underplayed it it would have been TPK.
for 3 lvl 9 pc's + 1lvl 5 NPC. + 40 odd sailors.


worst used agaist me.
5 or so fiendish dire rats. vs lvl 5 cleric and lvl 5 wizard.
Low leval wizards can only cast fire spells if they want AOE.
flaming sphere.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Arrow demons are pretty tough for CR7s.

[Rhawin]

Drowned are pretty mean. CR 8 150 HP (20 HD!) with fast healing 5 makes them tough to kill. Their attacks suck, which would make it less of an issue, but then they have an aura which forces Con checks (not fort save) or be dropped, and it has an increasing DC. If it can last three rounds its a TPK.

[Danin]

The Essence Reaver from Secrets of Sarlona. Just wow. Words can not begin to state how under CR'd that creature is.

112 HP and DR 10/Magic, but when you hit the creature it is a DC 22 fort save or the weapon is drained of its magic for 1d6 rounds and the enhancement and special properties of the weapon are transfered to the essence reaver's attacks (Of which there are 4). When the creature hits, it is a DC 22 fort save or a spell of the essence reaver's choice is drained from the target and one magic item is drained for 1d6 rounds, the magical properties then being applied to the reaver's skin and granting him the ability to cast the spell. Wounds from the reaver don't heal naturally, requiring a DC22 caster level check for a healing spell to work. True Sight as a spell like ability. Aware of all magical items in the area and their function. All magic properties and spells are retained by the essence reaver for an hour. Finally it has a 30 radius stunning screech that is a DC 22 fort save to avoid being stunned for one round usable as a free action 3 / day and truly absurd stats. CR 9

[Dixieboy]

Drowned are pretty mean. CR 8 150 HP (20 HD!) with fast healing 5 makes them tough to kill. Their attacks suck, which would make it less of an issue, but then they have an aura which forces Con checks (not fort save) or be dropped, and it has an increasing DC. If it can last three rounds its a TPK.
Gimme the book, this should be useful :smallbiggrin:

[Mushroom Ninja]

Drowned are pretty mean. CR 8 150 HP (20 HD!) with fast healing 5 makes them tough to kill. Their attacks suck, which would make it less of an issue, but then they have an aura which forces Con checks (not fort save) or be dropped, and it has an increasing DC. If it can last three rounds its a TPK.

I'll second that. My party (4 level 8 characters) almost got dropped by one of those and a couple of bad rolls.

[Milskidasith]

Oxina, you sent three level 9 PCs against a CR12 enemy. Of course it was able to beat them! I'm not sure if it's under CR'd or not (I don't have all of it's stats) but it's definitely going to be too hard when you send it to attack PCs three levels under where they should be.

[Oslecamo]

@Oscelamo;
The planetar's or Ethergaunt's racial abilities far outstrip the NPC treasure values. Remember, NPC treasure values are several times lower than PC values. Say you have CR 16-17. That's what, 30.000 GP in treasure? 40.000? That's a +6 enhancement to intelligence. The Ethergaunt already gets a +20 racial.

You're doing it all wrong.

First, a 16th level NPC gets a whooping 77.000 GP gear, lv 17 gets 100.000 GP, wich is a lot more than just 30.000 GP.(pg 127 of the DMG)

Second, the npc got elite array of stats(15 to int), and gets extra int for his levels(+4 by level 16), meaning that if we pick a race with int bonus, like high elf(+2), and the headband of intelect, he's geting a +17 int bonus right out of the bat, wich is quite close to the ethergaunt's +20.

Third, you're suposed to spend a good chunk of the NPC money in expendable items, like scrolls and potions. The NPC is suposed to burn part of his own equipment so the party gets "fair" loot by defeating him. Meanwhile, the NPC wizard with some UMD ranks protects himself before battle with, let's say, a scroll of greater spell immunity, death ward and freedom of movement, wich the ethergaunt will have a much harder time geting (he can't even use limited wish because he has no experience to burn). The NPC wizard can also actually cast the more powerfull stuff like gate and wish (again, the ethergaunt has neither experience or money to burn). Really I don't think I need to explain how easy is to abuse expendable equipment.

Fourth, the ethergaunt only casts as a wizard. The actual npc wizard gets a familiar, wich can be darn usefull if used right, and extra metamagic feats, that if chosen correctly will make any remaining diference much smoother. An improved familiar casting scrolls with UMD sudenly makes the NPC wizard a lot more dangerous.

Fifth, the NPC can take prestige classes. If we go for the broken stuff like incantrix and Initiate of the seven cheese then the ethergaunt is a little puppy compared to the NPC wizard. Even if we don't go for the broken stuff there's plenty of nifty prcs out there that will make up for any remaining diferences.

Choco: I've dealt with save or dies at low levels before. Luckily the party had started to carry as much NPCs as possible and we then used them as "test subjects" to see how dangerous a creature was.

Our most glorious moment was when a gnoll prisioner was petrified by a coacktrice and then we sold the resulting statue in a city's market of art for a good chunck of gold, beind praised for the "Natural expression of terror of the sculpture".:smalltongue:

[Lamech]

Wait optimized PCs. Those guys are under CR'd. Also tainted casters. Those guys are great for under CR.
"Alright DC 57 SoD"
"Which one?"
"Do you actually have any +38's"
"Err... not so much."

[Epinephrine]

Mind flayer with a single class level gets tough. Gets the elite stat array as part of gaining a level, starting with 21 in Cha, put the attribute bnouses from HD into Cha for 23 Cha, and give it treasure that it can use (a Cha boosting item, for example); it gets an extra feat for hitting 9HD, so may as well take Ability Focus Mind Blast. Suddenly the CR 8 or 9 (depending on whether the class level is considered associated or not) critter is using mind blasts at DC 24, which is solid for that CR.

[Oslecamo]

Mind flayer Anything with a single class level gets tough.

Fixed it for you. Really one single class level can do wonders.

Brutish monster? One level of barbarin increases speed(or pounce) and gives you rage.

Lots of natural attacks? Hello rogue and sneack attack goodyness.

High wisdom and lots of natural HD? Fear the monk!

[Epinephrine]

Fixed it for you. Really one single class level can do wonders.


I suppose that's somewhat true - the Mind Blast is an already nasty at-will ability, and it's amazing how much it's boosted with a single level, but I'll concede that many things get tough with a class level.

[Glimbur]

1) Take your favourite low CR, low HD Aberration, fey, giant, humanoid, or plant[with 4+ Int].

2) Apply Half-Fiend, or Half-Celestial, depending on party alignment.

3) Add 4 HD for every 1 CR increase.

4) Get CL for Blasphemy/Holy Word at least 10 above the characters ECL.

5) TPK*

*Offer not valid on Horizon Walkers, deaf characters, or people in Silence.

[Irreverent Fool]

Simulacra can be under-CR'd since their abilities are not altered, but their CR is reduced.

I'm not sure what the formula for this is, but consider the simulacra listed in Frostburn in Delzomen's Forge.

{table]Monster|Monster's CR|Simulacrum CR
Dire Bear|7|4
Urskan|5|2
Vrock|9|6
Adult White Dragon|10|6[/table]

The dragon is of particular note, since it has a breath weapon and all the attacks of a normal adult white dragon, though its HD-based abilities (BAB, Saves) are reduced.

It's not spelled out in the rules whether it is possible to make a simulacrum of a simulacrum or not. If one can, imagine what would happen if you did so with something with a powerful at-will attack.

[Lamech]

Simulacra also great gold wyrms. Full castery goodness. Combo with eschew material for brokenness.

[Milskidasith]

Does Eschew materials even do anything? I mean, don't most games assume you have anything listed in your spell component pouch?

[Irreverent Fool]

Does Eschew materials even do anything? I mean, don't most games assume you have anything listed in your spell component pouch?

Do you really picture a dragon pulling stuff out of a component pouch?

It's generally agreed upon to be a pretty useless feat. Most material components are a joke anyway. Many DMs don't bother with them unless it is costly, essentially granting all spellcasters this feat for free, which I think is fine.

In games with my group, we've upped the power of the feat a little by having the cost absolved increase with character level.

obnoxious
sig

[Milskidasith]

Aren't most spells from monsters "spell like abilities" so that the materials aren't needed anyway?

[Irreverent Fool]

Aren't most spells from monsters "spell like abilities" so that the materials aren't needed anyway?

Many monsters have 'spell-like abilities'. Some cast spells. Some do both, like dragons. A great wyrm gold dragon in particular casts as a 19th-level sorcerer. More information is freely available in the SRD. I suggest d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm).

obnoxious
sig

[Lamech]

Does Eschew materials even do anything? I mean, don't most games assume you have anything listed in your spell component pouch?
Whats the listed cost of the ice and creature flesh simulacrum? Right NOTHING. Also works for ice assassin and create object. Thats why it rocks.

It also helps if people sunder spell component pouches. And if your DM does and THEN you take it you can ask "why arn't people attacking my spell component pouch?" Especially since you don't have to not use the spell component.

Enemy: Sunder hahaha, now you are helpless wizard.
Wiz: Eschew materials.
Enemy: I saw you taking out the stuff for spells.
Wiz: Yeeeaaah I don't have to use that.
Enemy: Right, right, right...
Wiz: Twinned maximized bastity.

[Irreverent Fool]

Whats the listed cost of the ice and creature flesh simulacrum? Right NOTHING. Also works for ice assassin and create object. Thats why it rocks.

I don't know why I never thought of that. Technically by the RAW you can create a simulacrum of any creature within the HD limit without the appropriate body part of that creature with eschew materials...

You'd have to be a 21st-level caster to make a simulacrum of a great wyrm gold dragon. Good luck finding a part of one though. Eschew materials fixes that.

What if you want to make a simulacrum of a simulacrum of that dragon? Well then you'd only need to be just high enough level to cast the spell.

That's horrifying.

Stupid RAW. Simulacrum was clearly meant to have a target of "a piece of a creature". The simulacrum elixir in Frostburn seems to support this.

obnoxious
sig

[chiasaur11]

I don't know why I never thought of that. Technically by the RAW you can create a simulacrum of any creature within the HD limit without the appropriate body part of that creature with eschew materials...

That's horrifying.

obnoxious
sig

It's one of the steps in creating Pun-Pun.

Of course it's horrifying.

[Inhuman Bot]

Not sure if anyone's linked it yet, but I think of this (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301) when I hear "that damn crab, en garde bitches".

Or, if you don't want to use the link..
Awesome. Fearsome. Bow before the crab.

PSEUDONATURAL PARAGON ADVANCED HUGE MONSTROUS CRAB (CR 33)

N Huge Outsider (extraplanar, aquatic, augmented vermin)
Init +13; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +42, Spot +37
Languages Aquan
AC 83 (Size -2, Dex +13, Luck +15, Insight +12, +35 Natural), touch 48, flat-footed 70
hp 544 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects
Resist fire 10, cold 10, electricity 35, acid 35
DR 15/epic
SR 80
Fort +34, Ref +28, Will +28
Spd 180 ft. (36 squares)
Melee epic tentacle +78 (2d8+46) or
Melee epic claw +78 (2d6+46) or
Melee 5 epic tentacles +78 (2d8+46) and
Melee 2 epic claws +78 (2d6+46)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +82
Atk Options constrict 4d6+46, improved grab, rotting constriction
Abilities Str 63, Dex 36, Con 39, Int 18, Wis 36, Cha 17
SQ amphibious, fast healing 20, constant insight, spell-like abilities, alternate form
Feats ToughnessB, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Awesome Blow, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack
Skills Balance +42, Climb +55, Hide +27, Jump +55, Listen +42, Move Silently +31, Spot +37, Tumble +42

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw or tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple with a +13 bonus as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Rotting Constriction (Ex)
Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

Constant Insight (Su)
The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target. This bonus is included in the statistics above.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 35th.
3/day—greater dispel, see invisibility, haste. Caster level 15th.

The DCs are Charisma-based.

Alternate Form (Su)
At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

En garde, bitches.


Crab by Fax Celestis.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Several kythons against a level 2 party. If they hadn't ran and Coup de Grace'd them in their sleep, they'd be abberation chow.

[Flickerdart]

That Damn Crab is CR33, though, at which point nothing makes sense anymore.

[Rhawin]

Gimme the book, this should be useful

MMIII. Almost everything else in the book is over-CRed though.

[Lamech]

Protean scourge. That thing is amazing. Especially if you make it fireball and invisy. And abuse its split ablity. Teeheehee... " Everyone you all take... umm... anyone have 123 hps? No one... really... I swear this was supposed to be an easy encounter."

And there's another monster with some innanely large AoE, that gives everyone nightmares. The 1d10 hp damage nightmares. And you thought you needed locate city to nuke stuff.


You'd have to be a 21st-level caster to make a simulacrum of a great wyrm gold dragon. Good luck finding a part of one though. Eschew materials fixes that.
Mystic theurge + consumptive field + lots of animals. (And you all said mystic theurge sucked.) Never mind casting times twelve hours. Guess you have to wait for miracle...
Also epic dragons for added stupidity. If your DMing you can argue it doesn't increase CR as long as you subtract it from the NPC's xp and treasure. And just copy lava wights as well.

Another under CR'd monster: Lava wights and the thing that spawns them. Probably even more hated than disjunction.

[chiasaur11]

That Damn Crab is CR33, though, at which point nothing makes sense anymore.

Except, oddly, the plot of "Primer".

[oxinabox]

Oxina, you sent three level 9 PCs against a CR12 enemy. Of course it was able to beat them! I'm not sure if it's under CR'd or not (I don't have all of it's stats) but it's definitely going to be too hard when you send it to attack PCs three levels under where they should be.
yeah, well they were expecting it.
ANd they had help from 20 men with +5 attack and heavy crossbows.
And they were a 26 pt buy.
also they were lvl 10. (i forgot)
I expected the hurt them bad, not come so close to TPK that I had to use deux ex machina to save them.
But still, +44 grapple, and then automatic damage.

[GoC]

Five come to mind in rough order of brokenness:
An Awakened Living Wish. With NPC ability scores and equipment+any equipment valued under 25,000gp (lots of single use stuff is nice). Actually, make that any Awakened Living 9th level spell (shapechange, gate, ect).
Fire-Souled Spellhoarding dragon (celerityceleritycelerityceleritycelerityx16...). Any of the older ones.
A slightly advanced Spellhoarding Lawful Great Wyrm Arch-Blue Dragon. Epic Spells with very high DC+antimagic clinging breath.
A PAO trap or a Gate trap. With an one-round reset.:smallbiggrin:
Awakened Polymorph.
Paragon Kitten of Legend.

[Oslecamo]

You'd have to be a 21st-level caster to make a simulacrum of a great wyrm gold dragon. Good luck finding a part of one though. Eschew materials fixes that.

Considering how valuable dragon scales by themselves are, I don't think eschew materials can help you, because any part of a gold dragon body would be worth a good chunck of gold.

Otherwise by that logic spell component pouch is the most broken item evar, because:
1-There's a spell in BOVD wich has a minor artifact as a spell component.
2-Artifacts technically don't have a price.
3-Then a spell component puch comes with infinite artifacts inside it for an handfull of gold.
4-?
5-Profit.

So good sir, I acept your dragon simulacrum challenge, and raise with my army of warriors wielding staffs of the magi and whatnot.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A dragon's hide, along with the scales, is what is used for crafting and is therefore extremely expensive. Like so many other creatures, dragons molt on a fairly regular basis, which produces numerous scales which are easy to obtain and wouldn't be useful as anything but spell components. For reference, there are several spells in the Spell Compendium among other places which include a dragon's scale as a material component, without specifying that it would even have any value at all.

[Kyrthain]

The psionic mindflayer is also up there, with 9th level manifesting for CR 8. It can eat your brain, mind blast you, and has pretty sweet stats, but it's a lower CR than the equivalent human psion

[Zaq]

Cranium Rat Swarm. Just... Cranium Rat Swarms.

I once threw two Lesser Cranium Rat Swarms (CR 2 apiece) and one normal Cranium Rat Swarm (CR 5) at a level 6 party. Yeah, they didn't do so well, even after I toned down their swarm immunity to weapon damage.

Mind Blast (stun for 3d4 rounds, in a cone, every 2 rounds. DC 14.), swarm traits (huzzah, immunity to weapon damage!), hive mind (what? A swarm that's NOT mindless?), 2d6 swarm damage... oh, and the fact that swarms don't have to use an action to use their swarm attack, making them perfectly capable of Mind Blasting you and then feasting on your stunned ass in the same round. This is the Lesser version. It is CR 2.

The Normal version, CR 5, gets Mind Blast at will (DC 17), casts spells as a 4th level sorcerer, and turns into a Lesser swarm when you kill it.

Are we having fun yet?

[Aneantir]

Are we having fun yet?

Not yet, but I will be once I throw those at my players next Saturday.

[Eldariel]

You'd have to be a 21st-level caster to make a simulacrum of a great wyrm gold dragon. Good luck finding a part of one though. Eschew materials fixes that.

Or just have, y'know, any CL increasing item/feat (Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Ring of Arcane Might, Strand of Prayer Beads [Beads of Karma], Ankh of Ascension, Divine Spell Power or so), and seeing you're near epic, I don't see why not have a few. Oh, and some class features (Archmage, Red Wizard of Thay, Ultimate Magus and Master Specialist among others pack CL increases) do this too. Level 20 casters with CL just 20 shouldn't exist outside getting Disjunctioned. Even Consumptive Field works if you just Persist (DMM) it.

It's one of the most stupid spells ever (although doesn't hold a candle for Ice Assassin [Frostburn], which Pun-Pun uses to ascend to divinity). Create simulacri of epic creatures after Legend Loring the location of an ancient battle where one fell and use magic to locate any piece of the creature and generate another one. Or do it the hard way and break the creature yourself to generate the piece. Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) would be pretty nice, for example, as would Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane). Then there are of course Epic Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon) for a bit bigger things, and the classic Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) clocking in at CR 57.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

According to the kobold entry in the Monster Manual, a kobold with levels in an NPC class has a CR equal to its character level minus 3. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that a kobold with standard (non-NPC) class levels has a CR equal to its character level minus 2. However, each kobold featured in this article has above-average ability scores (usually the elite array given in the Monster Manual), and thus has a CR equal to its character level minus 1 (plus adjustment for its template, if any).



http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20031109a

happened to come across that today...