Worst Rule Interpretations ever

[quick_comment]

What are the worse arguments or interpretations you have heard?

I had a player try to take ability focus (spellcasting), because "spellcasting is a special attack".

[AmberVael]

I had a player try to take ability focus (spellcasting), because "spellcasting is a special attack".

I tried that!
Then I was swiftly taught that I was being very silly.

[erikun]

"I disbelieve the invisibility, because invisibility is an illusion and you can disbelieve illusions." :smallannoyed:

[valadil]

"He can't sneak attack me, I have evasion!" There was more stuff along those lines, but that's the only one I can remember. Bottom line is the player only knew the names of her abilities and never read what they actually did.

[Mindleshank]

"I am going to guess that you are here i can't see you but i know where you are generally." (Attack right on target)

"Can i have two returning Boulders".

[Burley]

"A parrying dagger is a dagger."
Psh... Psyche!

[mistformsquirrl]

"You have to roll a climb check." - A DM said to me in regard to me, climbing a ladder.

Note that this occurred in a time and place where absolutely nothing dangerous was happening. The ladder was only 10 ft tall even >.<

And no, I wasn't allowed to take 10. (Predictably, I rolled a natural 1.)

[Shinizak]

Player: I can totally take a bloodline, it's right here in unearthed arcana!

me (DM): But that's a book full of optional rules, and we aren't using that one.

Player: but you said any race you want!

Me : But I didn't say anything about bloodlines.

Player: when then I'll just make a gestalt character instead.

Me: :smallfurious:

Unfortunately he still plays with us, mostly because I owe him big time.

[Ridureyu]

Does anyone remember all the "Paladin fall" threads?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

"You have to roll a climb check." - A DM said to me in regard to me, climbing a ladder.

Note that this occurred in a time and place where absolutely nothing dangerous was happening. The ladder was only 10 ft tall even >.<

And no, I wasn't allowed to take 10. (Predictably, I rolled a natural 1.)

A properly set ladder (on flat ground, against a straight wall) has a climb DC of 0.

[Justin B.]

"He can't sneak attack me, I have evasion!" There was more stuff along those lines, but that's the only one I can remember. Bottom line is the player only knew the names of her abilities and never read what they actually did.

This is my girlfriend.

Whenever she is about to get attacked: "I have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Tumble, Improved Uncanny Dodge!"

[mistformsquirrl]

A properly set ladder (on flat ground, against a straight wall) has a climb DC of 0.

Yes, but this is a DM who rarely actually paid attention to the rules.

Skill check DCs were set at his whim, as was pretty much everything else <x_x>; (I should have mentioned it - that's part of why the natural 1 was relevant. Skill checks don't normally use fumbles, but this guy did.)

[Starscream]

Once had a fellow player swear that Detect Magic would logically allow him to see invisible foes, tell what was an illusion, etc because these were all magical effects. Basically he believed a Zero level spell could duplicate the effects of True Seeing.

[Random832]

This is my girlfriend.

Whenever she is about to get attacked: "I have Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Tumble, Improved Uncanny Dodge!"

Well, Tumble does have the potential to give bonuses to AC. Maybe you should explain to her how to use it that way.

[quick_comment]

Well, Tumble does have the potential to give bonuses to AC. Maybe you should explain to her how to use it that way.

Yeah, but you have to fight like a sissy instead of raging and smashing everything in sight.

[Longcat]

Skill Focus(Speak Language) granting +3 on all language dependet checks

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yeah, but you have to fight like a sissy instead of raging and smashing everything in sight.

I'm sorry, but isn't that what rogues do? :smallbiggrin:

[erikun]

"You have to roll a climb check." - A DM said to me in regard to me, climbing a ladder.
Had this happen to me.

45° incline. DC 10 climb check. Gnome Wizard, STR 8. Couldn't make it taking 10, and halfway knocked myself out tumbling back down. (The party cleric was in the same position.)

Eventually, the DM just said "you make it up the slope." Probably about the time he realized we would have to end the adventure because half the party couldn't make it up a safety ramp. :smallmad: (or he just realized he overdid the DC)

[Dogmantra]

Worst one I've ever heard in real play is that I had to make a DC 15 concentration check to move across rough terrain. Of course, the DM had read it wrong, and acquiesced when I said that concentration is pretty much only for skills, and that he meant tumble.

[Riffington]

A threat automatically hits.

[Shinizak]

Same player:

Me: Okay, make a fort save.

Him: (fails) ****

Me: Make a second

Him: (rolls a 1)

Okay so as soon as the worm falls into ytour stomach, it begins to instantly dissolve into poison.

Him: can't I make a fort save?

Me: But you just did, TWO in fact. One to vomit it up and one against the poison.

Him: But I didn't KNOW what it was for.

Me: So?

Him: so it's unfair!

Me: No it's not...

Him: The body would continuously work to correct the problem (rolls) I got a nat 20!

Me: No, he doesn't get a second because he failed the first, and we're still in combat, so a minute hasn't gone by.

Him:...

Him: :smallannoyed: I kill myself.

Me: what?

Him: my character kills himself, he'd rather die then live with that.

Me: :smallfurious:

Him: what should I roll up for my next character?

[quick_comment]

I'm sorry, but isn't that what rogues do? :smallbiggrin:

Rogues? You mean those people who are just like wizards but have to spend money casting all their spells? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, I dont think even rogues fight defensively very often.

[AstralFire]

"Acrobatics skill means I can totally wall jump up 55 feet between two sheer walls 15 feet apart."

At level 7.

Her explanation? She didn't know how big squares were. Or actually read the difference between acrobatics and jump.

[Tyrmatt]

Same player:

Me: Okay, make a fort save.

Him: (fails) ****

Me: Make a second

Him: (rolls a 1)

Okay so as soon as the worm falls into your stomach, it begins to instantly dissolve into poison.

Him: can't I make a fort save?

Me: But you just did, TWO in fact. One to vomit it up and one against the poison.

Him: But I didn't KNOW what it was for.

Me: So?

Him: so it's unfair!

Me: No it's not...

Him: The body would continuously work to correct the problem (rolls) I got a nat 20!

Me: No, he doesn't get a second because he failed the first, and we're still in combat, so a minute hasn't gone by.

Him:...

Him: :smallannoyed: I kill myself.

Me: what?

Him: my character kills himself, he'd rather die then live with that.

Me: :smallfurious:

Him: what should I roll up for my next character?

I'd be inclined to say that this wins the thread...

[AdmiralCheez]

We had this one guy in our group that read every sourcebook out there, then took the best items and feats, ignoring any penalties he didn't like.

All of this culminated into a half-dragon fighter that dual-wielded flaming burst surging rapiers, then attacked with improved natural weapons and a flame breath more often than possible, all the while flying (just out of reach of the enemies, according to him) and claiming the damage bonus from height advantage (some magic item). His AC was above 40, and had DR and Spell Resistance, and the list goes on...

All of the bonuses existed in official sourcebooks, but he left out penalties like numbers of daily uses on items. Or the mandatory +1 bonus on weapons and armor before other things can be added. Or how putting two +2 bonuses on a weapon is the price of a +5. Really, any downside to any rule was just ignored.

When we finally audited his character sheet, and saw the horrors, the party (in-game) killed his character with four simultaneous coup-de-grace in the middle of the night, then supervised as he made a new, legal character.

[Justin B.]

A threat automatically hits.

Actually, this is a houserule we use. Empowers melee types, and makes combat more deadly.

[quick_comment]

Actually, this is a houserule we use. Empowers melee types, and makes combat more deadly.

So is there anyone who doesnt run around with a keen falchion?

[Justin B.]

Well, we're more character-oriented than power-oriented. The fighter types don't even have Power Attack.

It's foolish, but I actually prefer it that way, so I don't say anything.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

We had this one guy in our group that read every sourcebook out there, then took the best items and feats, ignoring any penalties he didn't like.

All of this culminated into a half-dragon fighter that dual-wielded flaming burst surging rapiers, then attacked with improved natural weapons and a flame breath more often than possible, all the while flying (just out of reach of the enemies, according to him) and claiming the damage bonus from height advantage (some magic item). His AC was above 40, and had DR and Spell Resistance, and the list goes on...

All of the bonuses existed in official sourcebooks, but he left out penalties like numbers of daily uses on items. Or the mandatory +1 bonus on weapons and armor before other things can be added. Or how putting two +2 bonuses on a weapon is the price of a +5. Really, any downside to any rule was just ignored.

When we finally audited his character sheet, and saw the horrors, the party (in-game) killed his character with four simultaneous coup-de-grace in the middle of the night, then supervised as he made a new, legal character.

A monk, I hope.

[TheEmerged]

That "I can run while prone!" insanity some people tried to pull in 4th Ed.

RE: Detect Magic vs Invisibility. Cross system note: this trick would work under the HERO System, depending on how the specific Detect Magic and Invisibility spells were built. In my own long-running Fantasy Hero campaign, this lead to there being seperate Invisibility and True Invisibility spells :smallredface:

[Lamech]

Effects include sunlight, the strong nuclear force, gravity, and time. Then use Iron Heart Surge.

[Shinizak]

I'd be inclined to say that this wins the thread...

Dude, this guy is just terrible. He started out really cool but turned into a jerk once he got the hang of the rules. He's always asking for gestalt, wanting to switch out his feats and class, and yelling at everyone because they aren't doing it the "right" way. There is no winning with this guy, just a myriad of ways to lose.

[AstralFire]

Dude, this guy is just terrible. He started out really cool but turned into a jerk once he got the hang of the rules. He's always asking for gestalt, wanting to switch out his feats and class, and yelling at everyone because they aren't doing it the "right" way. There is no winning with this guy, just a myriad of ways to lose.

AAGH! MY EVIL TWIN! *flees*

he has a goatee, doesn't he

[mistformsquirrl]

Sounds like we know some of the same people Shinizak <'x'>

[Riffington]

So is there anyone who doesnt run around with a keen falchion?

Of course. There are also keen scimitars. Now, I know what you are going to say, "but then you have to buy keen twice". That's ok. Because you don't care about the two-hand-fighting penalties (even the nonlight penalties). And you don't mind losing BAB as much, so you can take a few rogue levels.

Did I mention that we were playing 3.0, so keen and improved critical stacked?

[Shinizak]

God I hope not, good luck to you with your own little headaches...

[AstralFire]

Of course. There are also keen scimitars. Now, I know what you are going to say, "but then you have to buy keen twice".

Wait, what? I didn't follow here.


Did I mention that we were playing 3.0, so keen and improved critical stacked?

I'd be leery of letting them stack if threats autohit, but only slightly. Honestly, that could work out pretty well for TWFers. -Ponders the idea if it only worked on one-handed or light weapons-.

[Telonius]

Not a rule interpretation, so much as a rule misread... a former DM of mine allowed an Order of the Bow Initiate to use (regular old) Manyshot and apply precision damage on all of his arrows. :smalleek:

[Random832]

A threat automatically hits.

Technically, that's true - after all, if the roll doesn't qualify as a hit, it's not a threat.

I get what you mean, though. But the rules are spread out, and it's easy to miss, so I wouldn't call it anything close to "worst ever".

Anyway, there are as many critical hit houserules as there are groups. My group in college used:

A threat automatically hits. A second threat on the roll to confirm, if confirmed in a third roll, quadruples damage in a "double critical". A third threat, on that roll, is an automatic instant kill. And yet no-one worked through the math and invested in a Keen Scimitar.

[Oslecamo]

Locate city bomb bombo.

The worst part is that many people out there actually believe it works, despite the spell in question "locate city" stating that it only affects a circle, not a sphere or a cylinder, meaning that at worst everybody inside the circle is moved 5 feets up or down, and thus takes no damage at all.

It's basic mathematics for Gygax's sake! When did circles start to have a freaking volume?

[Riffington]

Wait, what? I didn't follow here.

Well, if you are fighting with two weapons, you have to spend twice as much money as if you fight with one weapon.



I'd be leery of letting them stack if threats autohit, but only slightly. Honestly, that could work out pretty well for TWFers. -Ponders the idea if it only worked on one-handed or light weapons-.
That means 12 or higher automatically hits, regardless of your attack bonus and their AC... (I imagine with the crit powers in ToB it gets even worse, but that wasn't a factor at the time)


Oh, I didn't mean worst ever like dumbest player/DM or anything. Just that it made a huge gameplay difference.

[Eldan]

The DM houseruled that if you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, you have a chance to hit yourself: you roll again, and if you miss the opponents AC on the second roll, you hit yourself.

Lead to the bard killing himself when he rolled max damage with his soul-devouring sword.


That was a lot of fun. :smallannoyed:

[quick_comment]

I'd be leery of letting them stack if threats autohit, but only slightly. Honestly, that could work out pretty well for TWFers. -Ponders the idea if it only worked on one-handed or light weapons-.

It makes attack bonus almost worthless. An improved critical, keen falchion crits from 12-20. Thats almost a 50% chance of hitting with +0 attack bonus. Toss in weapon master or disciple of dispater and you are hitting most of the time even if you have 6 str and arent proficient with the weapon.

[Eldan]

I think I saw a 3.0 build once which had a crit of 5-20. It used some kind of exotic weapon, a gauntlet, I think, which started with a crit rate of 17-20 or something.

[The Rose Dragon]

It makes attack bonus almost worthless. An improved critical, keen falchion crits from 12-20. Thats almost a 50% chance of hitting with +0 attack bonus. Toss in weapon master or disciple of dispater and you are hitting most of the time even if you have 6 str and arent proficient with the weapon.

Bladed gauntlet? Natural threat range of 17-20? Up to 8-20 along with Disciple of Dispater, keen and Improved Critical?

[erikun]

Yeah, I remember that thing. It only worked in 3.0 though, since Keen/Improved Crit/etc. doesn't stack in 3.5e.

[Eldan]

Right, that was it, exactly. The build used keen bladed gauntlets, disciple of dispater, improved critical and weapon master, I think, for 5-20 crits. I think he suggested also making them vorpal instead of keen.

[The Rose Dragon]

Yeah, I remember that thing. It only worked in 3.0 though, since Keen/Improved Crit/etc. doesn't stack in 3.5e.

Remember that the game Riffington was playing in was a 3rd Edition game.

[Mindleshank]

Him: "I'm a pixie your damage doesn't affect me"
Me: "but i am a soul knife, it says right here that the damage reduction it cancelled".
Him: "ummm, no it says my damage reduction is only cancelled by magic, like spells."

[Signmaker]

Locate city bomb bombo.

The worst part is that many people out there actually believe it works, despite the spell in question "locate city" stating that it only affects a circle, not a sphere or a cylinder, meaning that at worst everybody inside the circle is moved 5 feets up or down, and thus takes no damage at all.

It's basic mathematics for Gygax's sake! When did circles start to have a freaking volume?

Funny thing about shapes, Locate City doesn't have a 'shape' effect.

[AstralFire]

It makes attack bonus almost worthless. An improved critical, keen falchion crits from 12-20. Thats almost a 50% chance of hitting with +0 attack bonus. Toss in weapon master or disciple of dispater and you are hitting most of the time even if you have 6 str and arent proficient with the weapon.

True. Though with 6 Str you wouldn't be hitting very hard. Still, true. Ah well.
why do I spend so much time thinking about 3E numbers when I don't even play it anymore!

[quick_comment]

True. Though with 6 Str you wouldn't be hitting very hard. Still, true. Ah well.
why do I spend so much time thinking about 3E numbers when I don't even play it anymore!

Thats why you make it +1 keen and vorpal :)

[Signmaker]

Thats why you make it +1 keen and vorpal :)

Vorpal, last I checked, only works on a natural 20. Granted, with a threat range that low, you basically have a 3% chance of autokilling anything per swing...

Edit: I should really read 3E, shouldn't I... :smalleek:

[Xallace]

AAGH! MY EVIL TWIN! *flees*

he has a goatee, doesn't he

I love you for the things you think, AstralFire.

Anyway, I played with a guy once who decided he wanted to use Savage Species to play a Yuan-Ti Abomination Cleric. You know how the Savage Species progressions work, where you don't get as many HD as you have levels so it's off on a chart to the side? Well he decided that whatever it said in that line was the number of dice he would roll. Per level.

And we were 8th level, so he added in 8 levels of cleric, since, y'know, racial HD don't count as levels or anything. He had 200-300 Hit points, was about ECL 16 or so, and when questioned about the errors on his sheet he blamed it on me, claiming "I just did what he told me!" (Note: I had told him no such thing) But I guess that last part isn't a rules interpretation.

Did I mention this was the same campaign with the half-dragon princess and the prison cells that couldn't be blinked out of? No? Well it was.

[Quietus]

Thats why you make it +1 keen and vorpal :)

But only in 3e. 'cause now Vorpal only snicker-snacks on a nat 20.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The solution, as with every case of such problems, is fire, and lots of it.

[The Rose Dragon]

Vorpal, last I checked, only works on a natural 20. Granted, with a threat range that low, you basically have a 3% chance of autokilling anything per swing...

3rd Edition, which means every critical hit severed heads.

Did people completely miss the 3rd Edition part of the interpretation?

[Signmaker]

Did I mention this was the same campaign with the half-dragon princess and the prison cells that couldn't be blinked out of? No? Well it was.

The DMPC you had to protect that spat acid? Or am I thinking of a different story?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The DMPC you had to protect that spat acid? Or am I thinking of a different story?

That could kill town guard with impunity and was powerful enough to not need an escort of low level PCs.

[Xallace]

The DMPC you had to protect that spat acid? Or am I thinking of a different story?

That could kill town guard with impunity and was powerful enough to not need an escort of low level PCs.

That is exactly the story.

[AstralFire]

3rd Edition, which means every critical hit severed heads.

Did people completely miss the 3rd Edition part of the interpretation?

I know that before someone else mentioned Vorpal, I was still thinking in terms of a 3.5 repatch to 3.0 rule, not the actual 3E. I blame my fever.


I love you for the things you think, AstralFire.

Anyway, I played with a guy once who decided he wanted to use Savage Species to play a Yuan-Ti Abomination Cleric. You know how the Savage Species progressions work, where you don't get as many HD as you have levels so it's off on a chart to the side? Well he decided that whatever it said in that line was the number of dice he would roll. Per level.

And we were 8th level, so he added in 8 levels of cleric, since, y'know, racial HD don't count as levels or anything. He had 200-300 Hit points, was about ECL 16 or so, and when questioned about the errors on his sheet he blamed it on me, claiming "I just did what he told me!" (Note: I had told him no such thing) But I guess that last part isn't a rules interpretation.

Did I mention this was the same campaign with the half-dragon princess and the prison cells that couldn't be blinked out of? No? Well it was.

Ugh. Reminds me of the same girl who freaked out at me over me telling her, "no, you may NOT ninjabackflip walljump 55 feet straight up at level 7." Though at least she apologized after the entire group freaked out at her. :smalleek:

[Shinizak]

How did that end by the way?

[AstralFire]

Is that to me, or Xallace?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Is that to me, or Xallace?

If he doesn't ask you, then I will. Now continue on with the story.

[aivanther]

I love you for the things you think, AstralFire.

Anyway, I played with a guy once who decided he wanted to use Savage Species to play a Yuan-Ti Abomination Cleric. You know how the Savage Species progressions work, where you don't get as many HD as you have levels so it's off on a chart to the side? Well he decided that whatever it said in that line was the number of dice he would roll. Per level.

And we were 8th level, so he added in 8 levels of cleric, since, y'know, racial HD don't count as levels or anything. He had 200-300 Hit points, was about ECL 16 or so, and when questioned about the errors on his sheet he blamed it on me, claiming "I just did what he told me!" (Note: I had told him no such thing) But I guess that last part isn't a rules interpretation.

Did I mention this was the same campaign with the half-dragon princess and the prison cells that couldn't be blinked out of? No? Well it was.

That sounds like the best worst campaign ever.

My best rule moment was the guy who decided in our d20 star wars game that driving a speeder on normal terrain required CONTINUOUS (every 10 minutes) pilot checks. Eventually we all were going 10 mph because then we wouldn't die every time fumbled a roll (nearly happened twice with guys in the negatives).

[Shinizak]

Hm? Oh, I was asking Xallace, there was some ninjaing in the middle there though.

[Blackfang108]

Him: "I'm a pixie your damage doesn't affect me"
Me: "but i am a soul knife, it says right here that the damage reduction it cancelled".
Him: "ummm, no it says my damage reduction is only cancelled by magic, like spells."

I think I came accross this one on these boards.

Him-The monk will do better than you because he has Ki Strike(Magic) and overcomes DR/Magic. Soulknives don't.

I responded by posting the SRD entry that pointed this one out.

[Xallace]

If he doesn't ask you, then I will. Now continue on with the story.

Yeah I'd like to hear the rest of this.


How did that end by the way?

The character? Nothing, the DM let it slide. But for those who read my originally story, that shouldn't surprise you.

The campaign? I don't know how it ended, I left right after the "spare mayor" incident.

[Signmaker]

That is exactly the story.

Spoiler spam.

Also, that DM was a douche. For the record.

[Needle]

We found a baddie Sorc (lvl 8 or so) on the rooftoop of some city building because yadda yadda, so, Druid (me), Wizard, Rogue and Fighter, lvl 6 or so, fighted him and his lackeys. Turn was like this:

Wizard: Lightning Bolt *zaps Sorc and some lackey that was there*

Rogue: Bow fires arrows * hits Sorc*

Druid: Summon Nature's Ally III * 2 Black Bears Appears to fight the lackeys *

DM: Crap! It's Sorcerer turn, but his HP would not resist the attack from Fighter :smallsigh:, and if it does, well, you win next turn, so... he goes to the edge, jumps and casts Feather Fall.

Fighter: I chase him! :smallamused:

DM: If you do, you die :smalleek:

Fighter: Huh? why? :smallconfused:

DM: Well, in order to chase him, you need to jump too :smalleek:

Fighter: But I should get affected by his Feather Fall :smallmad:

Ah... those times...

[BloodyAngel]

We've played with a "Every threat is auto-confirmed" rule... but we also played under the rule that not every threat would hit. If you had a base attack bonus of 0, and threatened a crit on, say... a 15. But you were attacking a critter with AC 20... you WOULD have crit if you'd hit... but alas, you missed. It helped melee a bit, without making things crazy. We didn't do that "a second threat on the confirm = death" rule that so many people fond of either.

I've occasionally used a house rule that a nat 20 on a threat-confirm roll caused a crit for max-damage. Buff, but rare... and not broken. At least, not compared to spells. It even led to a barbarian in my group actually choosing to wield a scythe! (He rarely crit with it though)

[Douglas]

Once had a fellow player swear that Detect Magic would logically allow him to see invisible foes, tell what was an illusion, etc because these were all magical effects. Basically he believed a Zero level spell could duplicate the effects of True Seeing.
This one's a bit of a mixed bag. Your player is correct that Detect Magic would allow him to detect an invisible foe's Invisibility spell. It does not, however, come anywhere near the power of See Invisibility, much less True Seeing. Detect Magic used for this purpose requires three consecutive rounds of concentration (which takes up your standard actions) during which the invisible guy stays within a preselected 60' cone, and still only tells you the 5' square he's in without negating his total concealment and accompanying 50% miss chance. If your target moves out of the cone or if you ever stop spending a standard action on concentrating each round, you lose even that information.

[Kroy]

The campaign? I don't know how it ended, I left right after the "spare mayor" incident.

Doesn't someone get a Spare Mayor sash after your story?

[Xallace]

Spoiler spam.

Also, that DM was a douche. For the record.

Of course we're using spoilers; you know only club members are allowed to read about our exploits! :smallwink:

And if it makes you feel any better, that DM is currently working full-time as a college-town fast-food cashier.

Anyway, I just remembered another one. I had a player who claimed that the Monkey Grip feat allowed him to Weapon Finesse a Bastard Sword. His reasoning was that the feat allowed him to wield of a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon, so by extrapolation it could also allow him to wield a one-handed weapon as a light weapon, so he could finesse with it.

I think I mentioned this player before; he was the one who waited until at the first session to tell me that his father was a prince of a layer of Hell which he was soon to inherit. Not ask. Tell.

I told him physics wouldn't allow him to finesse a Bastard Sword.
I also told that I wouldn't allow that reading of the feat and should have asked me before building a character around it. Then I verbally slapped him one for the backstory.
I know, I know. Physics in DnD? Psshaw.

EDIT:

Doesn't someone get a Spare Mayor sash after your story?

Not in the campaign; Shadow_Archmagi picked it up as his avatar.

[mistformsquirrl]

There is actually a way (in D&D) to finesse a bastard sword >.> or at least a weapon treated identically to one (Katana) - but it involves a prestige class from a 3.0 sourcebook so... yeah.

(Iaijutsu Master from Oriental Adventures)

That said... yeah... >.> I suppose you could allow it with the proviso that doing so would also mean you'd take the Monkey Grip penalty.

[Xallace]

Had he wanted to use an Iaijutsu Master to do it, I would have let him. The OA classes follow Awesome Physics* anyway.
Less recognized than quantum physics, substantially cooler.

[AstralFire]

If he doesn't ask you, then I will. Now continue on with the story.

The following is backstory/explanation & doesn't actually elaborate on the 'after'. Skip the spoiler to go to the uh... actual spoilers?
So this was some OoC spatting in the middle of the Deep-66 campaign, Session 5: Raiders of the Lost Jedi Temple of Doom. The player has done a fair amount of D&D 3.5-ing, and when we introduced her to this system, we explained it to her as being based significantly on 3.5. I assumed a lot of things went without saying - 1 square being equal to 5 feet, or approximately 1.5 meters (1.542) being one of them. I've had to help her significantly with the system - I built her character for her, I keep her Force Powers listed on file so I can remind her what they do quickly, etc. But that's okay, I know not everyone's a geek like me when it comes to learning d20 variants and spinoffs.

The party finds itself on the edge of a 15 foot square (soon to be 15 by 25) pit, about 55 feet deep. Long story short, the other side of the pit is not very stable, and the two people closest to the edge - a Bothan and a Padawan - fail their reflex saves (...well, get hit on their reflex defense) and fall down, clinging to the rope they had used as a steady handhold. Below is a giant spider that tugs on the rope to try and yank the two party members off. The Padawan fails her climb check, but the Bothan makes hers, and Bothan's much stronger, so I rule they both get knocked down one space - still safely out of the spider's reach.

The Bothan (think... anthrocamelratdogs) is at the bottom of the rope with a blaster and because I accidentally double clicked the init button, thinks it's her turn - she aims to shoot at the rope to break it. I fix initiative... and the Padawan above her decides to jump down the rope and cut it in two. I call time-out here OoC, and inform her that she immediately gets a "bad feeling about this." I'd given several clues earlier on when they saw the spider that it was a considerable threat, including them watching it dispatch a group of kath hounds in one round. Moreover, since rounds are actually simultaneous, she can very possibly see the Bothan's pistol moving towards the rope.

She decides to jump down and cut the rope anyway. She is level 6, the spider is an encounter for 4 level 10s. Things do not go pretty. (Note: As there are six people in the party, I'd estimated that if they'd made it a full encounter, they could have handled it. Just... not 1 on 1.)

Our ninja (DISCLAIMER: Not actually a ninja) mercenary decides to jump down and try to rescue her as the other party members yell that they can lift the Padawan up to the rope using the Force. She rolls acrobatics to land safely, she does, and she describes it as wall-jumping between the two walls of the pit across its narrow dimension. I let it pass, she'd made it mechanically, so what the hey. Cool description, right?

Well, this ends in the Padawan getting knocked unconscious with a potent toxin in her bloodstream and miss ninja losing half her HP and barely avoiding poison herself. We manage to lift the Padawan up to the rope, and it doesn't look good for our Ninja - built for stealth and offense, she doesn't have the Surge power to jump megahigh, and we're all out of Move Objects top-side, since the party used them earlier to float the less physically inclined party members across.

Miss Ninja then informs me that she "backflips up 11 squares, bounding between the jagged rock walls," albeit with much better description. There's kind of a collective

...wut

from the group, then I finally say, "I... I don't think you can do that. For starters, that'd have to be a combined acrobatics and jump check. Secondly, that's 11 squares and the space is 3 squares across. Thirdly, you're level 6 without skill focus in these things."

Oh, she curses me out. Tells me that I "should have known" that when she wanted an acrobatic warrior, wall jumps and backflipping up walls like in some game (that she cited which escapes my memory since I never played it) were in the formula, and that if it wasn't possible, I should have warned her. And that nobody had ever told her how big across a square was.

The session was already off to a rocky start - the previous DM had suddenly become bored with Star Wars entirely, so I took over DMing 1 minute after the session started - so I tried to appease her, calm things down with a simple, "You could use a Force Point, or... I guess a destiny point would be more appropriate here."

Oh, wrong choice of words. Wrong choice of words. She has no idea what those are. Bigger flip out, in which she says that she was never wanted by the group anyway and no one ever explains things to her (I will note that she spends the first half of every session raiding, and while she's a great RPer when she's there, she does miss our attempts to include her in conversation at times) so she might as well just leave. The entire group at this point just says "screw this, we're going to leave too, and what the hell is your problem, Miss Ninja?"

Things turn acidic for a while. Then... I don't know how, Ninja just suddenly calmed down, made a heartfelt apology for the way she was acting, and I manage to call everyone back from AFK, then we have a kicking rest of the session. But oh god, I thought the group was about to disintegrate right there. I've never had a player flipout mid-session before, ever.

[Forbiddenwar]

DM selected creatures in a 3.5 campaign using a 3.5 book, but when he played he mixed it up a 3.0 Monster Manual for stats.

After 50 rounds of the most boring battle ever, he said "it shouldn't be this hard the CR says so. It has Damage Reduction 20/+5, which makes it impossible for everyone to do damage to it. It also has fast healing, why didn't this make the CR higher?"

We had to explain to our DM that if it has "Damaage reduction X/+ anything, he was using the wrong book. That damage reduction rules changed from 3.0 to 3.5. After that, he found the right book, and it was a much easier combat.

A good reminder of the advice in the DM Sticky: You will miss up and miss up big!

[Curmudgeon]

Spells don't stack. Period. Doesn't matter what type; you only get one. But a new spell automatically replaces an old one, so you could dissolve somebody with Resist Energy (acid) wading through an acid pool by giving them the harmless Resist Energy (fire) as a replacement.

That's because the DM couldn't figure out how to interpret the stacking rules, so he just said nothing stacks.

[Xallace]

*Ninja Flipping Out*

Ooh, geez. I can't say that's ever happened to me, but I'm sorry none-the-less. I'm glad it got better though.

[Kroy]

Not in the campaign; Shadow_Archmagi picked it up as his avatar.
That's what I was talking about.

[Xallace]

That's what I was talking about.

Oh. Then yes.

[Signmaker]

Getting hit by alchemists fire means you catch on fire until you put it out. Additionally, multiple 'catch on fire' usages stack for damage.

Just...no.

Additionally, a character at -9: "I delay."

[RTGoodman]

We've played with a "Every threat is auto-confirmed" rule... but we also played under the rule that not every threat would hit. If you had a base attack bonus of 0, and threatened a crit on, say... a 15. But you were attacking a critter with AC 20... you WOULD have crit if you'd hit... but alas, you missed. It helped melee a bit, without making things crazy. We didn't do that "a second threat on the confirm = death" rule that so many people fond of either.

That's, uh, actually the standard 3.x rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#criticalHits).


Increased Threat Range
Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.

That said... man. I've only ever had a couple of bad rulings like that, and they were both from the same DM within a couple of weeks of each other.

First, we were exploring the first dungeon in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and we get jumped by some ghouls (or maybe ghasts?) and a troglodyte cleric that's controlling them. As the rear guard of the party, my half-orc monk got the full brunt of it - hit and paralyzed in the first round. Then the DM decides, before the party can act, because we've got surprise, that the troglodyte cleric's best option is to walk up and coup de grace my character. Yeah, one DC 20-something Fortitude save later (with my +4 bonus), and my character was dead without any CHANCE of living.

Two weeks later, he rolled a 10% chance of finding a scroll of raise dead, and he rolled 8 or something. Got the scroll, cleric used it, I gave up enough magic items to pay for most of it, and I'm back, albeit a level lower and without any magic items (at level 4) in the middle of a dangerous dungeon. We come to a hole with a wooden platform that lowers on ropes like an elevator, so we take it down. It puts on top of a gigantic obelisk, which happens to have moving, grasping veins in it that try to attack the Paladin when he steps off. (Made his Reflex save to get back on without getting hit.) Figuring it's best not to get hit by 'em, and having a ridiculous jump modifier, I declare that I'll just jump the 10 feet across to the other wooden platform. DM says, alright, it swings and you fall off - make a Reflex save to grab on. One failed save later, and my character fell like 100 feet down and died (again). Thanks to slow fall, Tumble, and low rolls, I ALMOST survived. (I ended the fall with like -12 HP). Maybe it's just me, but that seemed like kind of a jerk move without giving me any warning that these things were prone to swaying, especially since we had 6 people on one in the first place with no problem.

[Uin]

Mithral Full-Plate should require heavy armour proficiency...

[Celebrochan]

I can make a reflex save to dodge a sword that would otherwise hit me... The D.M. liked it so much that all attacks from then on could be negated via a reflex save DC equal to the attack roll.

*shudder*

[mistformsquirrl]

I can make a reflex save to dodge a sword that would otherwise hit me... The D.M. liked it so much that all attacks from then on could be negated via a reflex save DC equal to the attack roll.

*shudder*

There is a way to handle that that works substantially better >.<

There's an optional rule in Unearthed Arcana - I think it's called "Active Defense" (could be wrong on that name though)- where instead of using AC as 10 + Armor + Dex + Whateverelse, you roll a d20 against each attack, then add your armor + dex + whateverelse.

I actually like it a fair bit; but for obvious reasons a reflex save is >< a problem.

[erikun]

Mithral Full-Plate should require heavy armour proficiency...
Which way?

As a DM, I would rule that Medium Armor Proficiency gives you proficiency with the armors in the "Medium Armor" category. You don't suddenly learn how to Full-Plate just because it has a +3 dex bonus to it.

Of course, I can see the other side of it, and wouldn't argue it as a player. Then again, I'd have to wonder why a Wizard would need a feat to wear a Twilight Mithral Elven Chain Shirt in that case.

[Diamondeye]

Mithril reduces medium armor to light and heavy to medium. That's why you can wear mithril full plate with medium armor proficiency.

[AslanCross]

...time to hang myself out to dry.

Grapple. Easy enough to misinterpret. Now for some reason I thought that when you attack a grappler, you have a 50% chance to hit the person he's grappling with.

The cleric is currently being wrestled by a Bugbear monk. The rogue has +6d6 sneak (including an extra 2 coming from Assassin's Stance). The rogue attacks the bugbear, but due to my percentile roll she shanks the cleric instead.

I could've sworn that rule was in there somewhere. ;_; Please don't hurt me.

Though in an earlier game a substitute player who was playing that same rogue misread Assassin's Stance and said it granted a total of +4d6 sneak attack if the character already had sneak attack. I'm sure everyone would have hated him if the cleric got shanked with 8d6 instead.

[RTGoodman]

Of course, I can see the other side of it, and wouldn't argue it as a player. Then again, I'd have to wonder why a Wizard would need a feat to wear a Twilight Mithral Elven Chain Shirt in that case.

You wouldn't really have to. The only downside of wearing armor when you're not proficient is that you take its armor check penalty on attack rolls and a bunch of other things. If the armor doesn't HAVE an ACP (like a +1 twilight mithril chainshirt), then there's no penalty for you to take.

[shadow_archmagi]

Doesn't someone get a Spare Mayor sash after your story?

I love stories that drop loot. Ever since that incident, I've been listening to grandad's war stories, hoping to get a +3 headband.

[erikun]

Well, what about a Monk?

If Mithral Full Plate is medium armor and Mithral Chain Shirt doesn't get in the way the Wizard's arcane castings, why would it restrict the Monk's mobility and ability to avoid attacks? One end or the other, something isn't going to make sense.

[Diamondeye]

A mithril chain shirt does get in the way of arcane casting. It still has a 10% spell failure chance, not 0. Note that light armor made of mithril is still light armor; it doesn't become "unarmored".

[warrl]

Once had a fellow player swear that Detect Magic would logically allow him to see invisible foes, tell what was an illusion, etc because these were all magical effects. Basically he believed a Zero level spell could duplicate the effects of True Seeing.

I've thought of that one for my barbarian/cleric, but unfortunately I'm one who tends to read the spell description and that shot the idea down pretty thoroughly for combat use. It takes an action to use on a CONE - you can't glance around a room with it. In that one action you get extremely limited information, you then have to spend additional actions to get more information.

So it would NOT QUICKLY identify invisible foes, illusions, etc. It would identify places where there's some sort of magic. I think everyone in our game and most of our opponents (even minions) has some sort of magic about them all the time. It would not distinguish between invisibility, an illusion, a barbarian with Bull's Strength, or a +1 arrow someone dropped on the floor.

[GreatWyrmGold]

My DM misinterpreted an unwriten rule...I had a pixie PC, and every enemy could see invisible things.

[Sallera]

...time to hang myself out to dry.

Grapple. Easy enough to misinterpret. Now for some reason I thought that when you attack a grappler, you have a 50% chance to hit the person he's grappling with.

The cleric is currently being wrestled by a Bugbear monk. The rogue has +6d6 sneak (including an extra 2 coming from Assassin's Stance). The rogue attacks the bugbear, but due to my percentile roll she shanks the cleric instead.

I could've sworn that rule was in there somewhere. ;_; Please don't hurt me.

Well, that's not too bad... there is indeed a 50% chance to hit the wrong person, it just only applies on ranged attacks.

As for myself, I killed a PC with the threat=hit misinterpretation... desperate fighter with imp. crit and falchion goes for the full power attack... threat, confirm, threat, confirm, dead barbarian. >>;; And yet none of us realized that there had to be something wrong with that scenario...

Edit: Also, I later killed the same barbarian with a Greenspawn Razorfiend. May or may not have been due to the same issue. <<;;

[AslanCross]

Once had a fellow player swear that Detect Magic would logically allow him to see invisible foes, tell what was an illusion, etc because these were all magical effects. Basically he believed a Zero level spell could duplicate the effects of True Seeing.

He actually could, but he'd have to have the invisible opponent/illusion in the cone for the entire time it takes to sense the auras and identify them.

<Wizard> "OMG he's got a magical aura! He's an illusion, don't attack him!"
<Fighter> "Uh dude, he just beaned me for 25 damage."
<Wizard> "DISBELIEVE THE DAMAGE!"
<DM> Err, actually...
<Wizard> HE DOES NOT EXIST!
<DM> Um...
<Wizard> I'M NOT LISTENING!
<DM> *to Fighter* Uh, that was the Bull's Strength buff he has on him.
<Ogre> *grapples Wizard*
<Wizard> I make a will save to DISBELIEVE!

[Korivan]

OMG, so many of these I've seen in our own games. As a Dm, I would never allow detect magic to see invisibility...or else why even grab the spell "detect invisibility" 2nd level, look it up. I'd say the worst rule interpretation stem from inexperienced dms that fear thier players will unbalance the game. Love the story about the DC 10 ladder. yup, cause even commoners fall off those death traps 50% of the time, Dex not withstanding.

[AstralFire]

Hey, now I have a valid excuse for my fear of ladders.
Actually Maya, that's a stepladder... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17EJvrXD8-c)

[Kurald Galain]

"Okay, that guy attacked me with his sword, can I make a reflex save to avoid it?"
(and since that botch was the DM's girlfriend, the answer was "yes"...)

"Yes, my conjured cloud of poison gas is totally non-lethal against those NPCs"
(in 4E, where this is technically legal, but still plenty silly)

"Well, since we killed all the witnesses, there's nobody left to actually prove we attacked the Vampire Prince, so we must get off free!"
(some n00b missing the point of Vampire: the Masquerade)

[Kurald Galain]

<Wizard> "OMG he's got a magical aura! He's an illusion, don't attack him!"
<Fighter> "Uh dude, he just beaned me for 25 damage."
<Wizard> "DISBELIEVE THE DAMAGE!"
Ah. 2E had a lovely rule for that. "An attempt to disbelieve automatically forfeits a saving throw if the effect is real." So there! :smalltongue:



It's basic mathematics for Gygax's sake! When did circles start to have a freaking volume?
A few years before "squares" became three-dimensional...

[quick_comment]

OMG, so many of these I've seen in our own games. As a Dm, I would never allow detect magic to see invisibility...or else why even grab the spell "detect invisibility" 2nd level, look it up. I'd say the worst rule interpretation stem from inexperienced dms that fear thier players will unbalance the game.

Detec magic takes 3 rounds of concentration and only works if the invisible guy stays in a particular 60ft cone. It does not negate his concealment, only pinpoints him

See invisibility works all the time, doesnt require concentration, removes his concealment and the miss chance

[AstralFire]

I don't know how I missed that earlier. AslanCross, that was beautiful.

[Oslecamo]

Funny thing about shapes, Locate City doesn't have a 'shape' effect.

Another good argument, thank you very much. Since it seems people won't listen to basic mathematics, perhaps they will listen to D&D geekery.

[Tehnar]

When playing 4E we (I) were wrong about some rules (probably influenced by 3.5):

- regeneration works when you are on negative hp. Was pretty nifty with one stance

- dominated doesn't make you dazed

- resist 10 necrotic means only necrotic deals full damage (those were some tough undead)

- you can make as many death saving throws as you like as long as you dont fail more then 2 during the same period of when being on negative hp. So if for instance you failed 2 and then someone threw a heal on you, and a enemy dropped you again, you could fail 2 more before being in danger of dying

[Mr.Moron]

Our DM seems to hate Stealth/Sneak attack.

He has ruled when you're hidden from the enemy (they don't know your location, and can't see you) you don't get sneak attack. Though it isn't said anywhere it's just logical given the implications of inivisbility etc. Also there are spells and abilties than refer to sneak attack applying when hidden.

That and it seems, that enemy ALWAYS gets a surprise round. That really isn't so much a ruling as it seems enemies always have +INF to spot and +INF to hide.

Last session we were "Ambushed" by some giant monstrous centipedes about 40ft away from us.

[Irreverent Fool]

"I disbelieve the invisibility, because invisibility is an illusion and you can disbelieve illusions." :smallannoyed:

You must have never played 2e. After a DM introduced illusions into the campaign once, the first thing done in any room/encounter/etc was to attempt to disbelieve EVERYTHING.


Locate city bomb bombo.

The worst part is that many people out there actually believe it works, despite the spell in question "locate city" stating that it only affects a circle, not a sphere or a cylinder, meaning that at worst everybody inside the circle is moved 5 feets up or down, and thus takes no damage at all.

It's basic mathematics for Gygax's sake! When did circles start to have a freaking volume?
After such a lengthy discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72212&page=3), that turned out to be the thing that broke it.


Funny thing about shapes, Locate City doesn't have a 'shape' effect.

A circle is a shape.

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[GreatWyrmGold]

Our DM seems to hate Stealth/Sneak attack.

He has ruled when you're hidden from the enemy (they don't know your location, and can't see you) you don't get sneak attack. Though it isn't said anywhere it's just logical given the implications of inivisbility etc. Also there are spells and abilties than refer to sneak attack applying when hidden.

That and it seems, that enemy ALWAYS gets a surprise round. That really isn't so much a ruling as it seems enemies always have +INF to spot and +INF to hide.

Last session we were "Ambushed" by some giant monstrous centipedes about 40ft away from us.

:eek:
Even my DM-my little brother, who doesn't seem to have read the rulebooks, isn't THAT stupid...

[AstralFire]

Huh. You appear to be right; I'm surprised that that's never explicitly mentioned. Still, the name of the ability is Sneak Attack; I put this in the silly hat rack right next to "regain HP via drowning" and the Paladin version of Pun-Pun. (The silly hat rack is the most extreme and strangest part of the Legally Workable Closet.)

Your DM appears to be afraid of commitment.

I mean, afraid of his NPCs dying early.


You must have never played 2e. After a DM introduced illusions into the campaign once, the first thing done in any room/encounter/etc was to attempt to disbelieve EVERYTHING.

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2E? Heck, I did that when I was in 3E and just starting out.

[Mr.Moron]

Huh. You appear to be right; I'm surprised that that's never explicitly mentioned. Still, the name of the ability is Sneak Attack; I put this in the silly hat rack right next to "regain HP via drowning" and the Paladin version of Pun-Pun. (The silly hat rack is the most extreme and strangest part of the Legally Workable Closet.)

Your DM appears to be afraid of commitment.

I mean, afraid of his NPCs dying early.


I don't think he's that overly attached to the NPCs. They aren't "His", as he's running premade. Some of it may be nervousness over us doing things the module doesn't account for, however I don't think that's entire issue. I think part of it may be that he's big on the whole "Heros are Heroic" thing. He's just more inclined to reward the knight-in-shining armor than a skulking roguish type. One way we can earn bonus XP is by doing things that are particular "Brave or Heroic".

He isn't bad really, that's just one thing that particular irks me. Part of why I recently switched from a sneaky-type to a LG Holy Warrior who wears multiple Holy Symbols /w continual flame cast on them. That and the group sorely needed Divine Casting.

[AstralFire]

Then why do the enemies constantly get the jump on you? There's a bit of a difference from 'Heroes are heroic' to 'heroes are blind and deaf.'

[Irreverent Fool]

Huh. You appear to be right; I'm surprised that that's never explicitly mentioned. Still, the name of the ability is Sneak Attack; I put this in the silly hat rack right next to "regain HP via drowning" and the Paladin version of Pun-Pun. (The silly hat rack is the most extreme and strangest part of the Legally Workable Closet.)

Being attacked by an invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) opponent denies the defender his Dex bonus to AC and therefore makes him vulnerable to Sneak Attack.

The Rules Compendium says:
If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. Thatcreature treats you as if you were invisible.

I'm pretty sure core makes some round-about reference to that as well, but it's... hidden.

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[Mr.Moron]

Then why do the enemies constantly get the jump on you? There's a bit of a difference from 'Heroes are heroic' to 'heroes are blind and deaf.'

That, I don't know. Sometimes one or two of us get dealt into the surprise round, and it isn't 100% (that's just hyperbole on my part). It is very frequent though.

If I were to guess, perhaps he wants us to be actively declaring our spot checks, rather than prompting us or rolling them in the background. Who knows? I enjoy the game enough I don't feel like rocking the boat over it. It just means that I'm not going to be putting any ranks into spot or listen and taking the inattentive flaw from now on, heh.

[Irreverent Fool]

2E? Heck, I did that when I was in 3E and just starting out.

Unfortunately in 3e, illusions are holograms and non mind-clouding effects. My group still isn't quite used to that. Sad times. On the other hand, you can no longer kill people with Phantasmal Force so that's a plus.

There's some D&D comic that has a group of players sitting around and at long last one of the characters successfully manages to disbelieve the air...

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[OracleofWuffing]

"Inertial Armor and Mage Armor stack. They are two different sources: Psionic and Arcane."

And, since we all can't be perfect, here's one I made. You know how Call Lightning gets you a 5-foot-wide, 30-foot-long vertical bolt of lightning? Yeah, well... Years of thinking in two dimensions convinced me that a vertical line runs North to South, not up to down.

[Rutskarn]

This might have been posted already, but there's a famous thread on the Wizard's forum about someone who made "called shots" on specific parts of the body.

Specifically, the heart.

If he succeeded on one simple attack roll, he instantly killed everything forever.

[Irreverent Fool]

Bad rules interpretation I remember:

The DM rules that Knowledge: Local only works in the area you live in (because it's local) but still covers all the normal things Knowledge: Local is meant to cover. For adventurers, this pretty much made the skill completely useless.


This might have been posted already, but there's a famous thread on the Wizard's forum about someone who made "called shots" on specific parts of the body.

My players still try to do called shots all the time. On the one hand, I don't want to stop them when they suggest something cool, but I don't want every combat to be called shots to the eyes and head.

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[AstralFire]

I don't think he can be blamed too much for that. Knowledge (Local) has almost nothing to do with what it actually covers. I think it'd be reasonable to fold it into Knowledge (History), on top of that.

[Rutskarn]

Bad rules interpretation I remember:

The DM rules that Knowledge: Local only works in the area you live in (because it's local) but still covers all the normal things Knowledge: Local is meant to cover. For adventurers, this pretty much made the skill completely useless.



My players still try to do called shots all the time. On the one hand, I don't want to stop them when they suggest something cool, but I don't want every combat to be called shots to the eyes and head.

obnoxious
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Called shots are completely valid.

Called shots to the heart are bloody daft.

[Irreverent Fool]

Called shots are completely valid.

Not by the 3.5 RAW. But I agree.

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[Draco Dracul]

Another good argument, thank you very much. Since it seems people won't listen to basic mathematics, perhaps they will listen to D&D geekery.

If locate city is a circle it should only be able to find cities that intersect the plane from which it was cast (I should stress that I am not arguing that the locate city bomb should ever be allowed under any circumstance.).

[Kalbron]

Well honestly in regards to called shots to the heart you go:

"Sure... lets see. You can't see it so you're firing blind, -20 to hit. You're firing through something rather solid, namely bone and flesh, an additional -10 to hit..."

Etc, etc, etc. :smallbiggrin:

[VirOath]

Well, what about a Monk?

If Mithral Full Plate is medium armor and Mithral Chain Shirt doesn't get in the way the Wizard's arcane castings, why would it restrict the Monk's mobility and ability to avoid attacks? One end or the other, something isn't going to make sense.

Okay, it can be seen either way in terms of proficiency, but the concept is that a Breast Plate will count as medium armor if you sleep in it, but a Mithril BP will count as a light if you sleep in it, as it counts as light for all things. But changing an armor's material or category doesn't change the time it takes to don, so can can be seen as not changing the training needed.

The problem is with Monk is that it says Unarmored. Not "When not wearing armor weighing over X pounds or having an ACP other than 0", this applies to many other classes as well that get bonuses to AC when not wearing armor and using the proper weapon.

A Wizard can wear any armor they want, but they aren't trained in so they will take the ACP to all attacks and non mental checks (I think you even take the ACP to AC, but that might have been 3.0). So if you have an ACP of 0, you can wear that armor without training. But a Wizard will always take the ASF chance when wearing armor, nothing you can do about it. Unless you reduce the ASF to 0.

It's a difference of penalties for wearing armor you aren't trained in and meeting the requirements to use class features.

It's a case of RAW being messed in the head. Other systems that use the 3.X base often fix these little mix ups (Like Everquest's Monk being allowed to wear armor as long as it is below a certain weight and doesn't have an ACP, without losing any of their class features. Then again, they also made monk weapons that enhanced unarmed strikes)

[AslanCross]

\

My players still try to do called shots all the time. On the one hand, I don't want to stop them when they suggest something cool, but I don't want every combat to be called shots to the eyes and head.

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I typically rule that the called shot is only successful if the character sneak attacks or crits. At that point, the attack is usually fatal, so penalties from damage to legs, eyes, or arms don't really matter. I rule it this way because you have to be really on the dot to hit a small part of the body. More elegant than assigning specific ACs to various body parts, at least.

Last session the rogue sniped a Blackscale Lizardfolk in the head. He hit, but the thing was still alive long enough to bash him for half his life.

"...but...I shot the thing in the HEAD!"
"Reptilian skull. Sorry."

It bled to death next round anyway.

[Irreverent Fool]

Well honestly in regards to called shots to the heart you go:

"Sure... lets see. You can't see it so you're firing blind, -20 to hit. You're firing through something rather solid, namely bone and flesh, an additional -10 to hit..."

Etc, etc, etc. :smallbiggrin:

50% miss chance because you can't see the target. Oh and you have to break through the objects in between yourself and the heart. The armor the creature is wearing is a steel breastplate +2, so that's 14 hardness and 70 hp. Then you've got to get through his chest which has a hardness of 0 and his total hp. Once you get through all that you can hit his heart.

The heart has an AC of +2 for being tiny, +7 for the breastplate, and +2 for the creature's Dex modifier....

obnoxious
sig

[Maerok]

Called shots are completely valid.

Called shots to the heart are bloody daft.

This reminds me of the "If you can stake a vampire, you can stake a mage" conundrum/debacle.

[Irreverent Fool]

This reminds me of the "If you can stake a vampire, you can stake a mage" conundrum/debacle.

This is why they decided against called shots in 3.5

obnoxious
sig

[FlawedParadigm]

Mr. Welch makes called shots to your self-esteem. (http://theglen.livejournal.com/16735.html) (#517, but no reason to skip ahead if you haven't seen the list before.)

[quick_comment]

Its a bad idea to even allow called shots to the heart. You allow it, and you will have PCs demanding no penalty on their brilliant energy bloodseeking arrows (ignores concealment and nonliving matter like the chest plate)

Then just because they can, they will add on true strike and 1 shot your BBEG.

[Anxe]

Casting Modify Memory to give your character the memory of fighting and defeating a Red Dragon Wyrm. Then you get the experience from defeating that Wyrm all by yourself don't you?

I used this one...

[Lamech]

Our DM seems to hate Stealth/Sneak attack.

He has ruled when you're hidden from the enemy (they don't know your location, and can't see you) you don't get sneak attack. Though it isn't said anywhere it's just logical given the implications of inivisbility etc. Also there are spells and abilties than refer to sneak attack applying when hidden.

That and it seems, that enemy ALWAYS gets a surprise round. That really isn't so much a ruling as it seems enemies always have +INF to spot and +INF to hide.

Last session we were "Ambushed" by some giant monstrous centipedes about 40ft away from us.Your last line makes me want to put all the skill points of a a dragon into hide.

[holywhippet]

There's some D&D comic that has a group of players sitting around and at long last one of the characters successfully manages to disbelieve the air...

obnoxious
sig

Yep, this one: http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=56

[GreatWyrmGold]

That is exactly the story.

Where's the story?

[Teln]

If locate city is a circle it should only be able to find cities that intersect the plane from which it was cast (I should stress that I am not arguing that the locate city bomb should ever be allowed under any circumstance.).

Wait a minute, even if the Locate City bomb is a circle instead of a sphere, what happens to buildings that fail the saving throws? Falling 5 feet is nothing to a character, but a building?

[Anxe]

Wait a minute, even if the Locate City bomb is a circle instead of a sphere, what happens to buildings that fail the saving throws? Falling 5 feet is nothing to a character, but a building?

Locate City Bomb only works by RAW and by RAW to take damage from falling the stuff has to fall at least 10 feet. The buildings are safe.

[Typewriter]

I had a player who only ever read the first few lines of a feat, and would never look into it futher. He would just take it and do what he thought it did:

Ascetic Rogue: Rogue/Monk levels stack for everyting! One feat for gesthalt!

Practiced Spellcaster: +4 to your caster level, that's two more levels of spells!

...

I dont play with him anymore.

[Lamech]

Astral projection creates copies of your equitment. No the charges expending charges does not take charges away from the original.

[Alejandro]

Called shots are completely valid.

Called shots to the heart are bloody daft.


And you're to blame.

[AslanCross]

Wait a minute, even if the Locate City bomb is a circle instead of a sphere, what happens to buildings that fail the saving throws? Falling 5 feet is nothing to a character, but a building?

Explosive Spell only knocks away creatures. Buildings would be unaffected.

It's like the equivalent of a dirty radiation bomb.

[Coidzor]

^: I think you mean Neutron Bomb.


Bad rules interpretation I remember:
The DM rules that Knowledge: Local only works in the area you live in (because it's local) but still covers all the normal things Knowledge: Local is meant to cover. For adventurers, this pretty much made the skill completely useless.

Wait, really? I thought that was intentional on the part of the people who designed skills to gimp rogue-ish types... :smallredface:

...I've never taken Knowledge: Local due to thinking that was how it was played. May or may not have been how my group did it, as I didn't even wanna bring it up...

[AslanCross]

^: I think you mean Neutron Bomb.


Hmm, actually, yeah. I thought they were the same thing.

[Zeful]

Hmm, actually, yeah. I thought they were the same thing.

A dirty bomb is a conventional (but high powered) explosive "tainted" with radioactive materials to irradiate an area (or at least I'm pretty sure of this).

A Neutron bomb is a low-impact nuclear warhead which is only lethal for organic for only a couple of hours after detonation. And the radiation is fully gone after one human generation.


Wait, really? I thought that was intentional on the part of the people who designed skills to gimp rogue-ish types... :smallredface:

...I've never taken Knowledge: Local due to thinking that was how it was played. May or may not have been how my group did it, as I didn't even wanna bring it up...
I thought that to, so I changed it to work like Preform does: Every rank you pick an area. All knowledge (local) checks allow you to know local legends, superstitions, laws and traditions in greater detail/accuracy than asking people. Every time you level up, any area you've been to you may list as an extension of the skill.

It limits the skill, but makes it pretty useful overall in my opinion.

[GoatToucher]

Originally Posted by Rutskarn
Called shots are completely valid.

Called shots to the heart are bloody daft.


And you're to blame.

ICWUDT

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Astral projection creates copies of your equitment. No the charges expending charges does not take charges away from the original.This is the case. It's bloody daft, but Astral Projection is a stupid spell all around.

[Zeful]

This is the case. It's bloody daft, but Astral Projection is a stupid spell all around.

Which is why I like the 3.0 version of the spell. Returning to material plane ended the spell.

[9mm]

that a pyro hydra's combat reflexs meant that each AoO was taken using all 13 heads at once, not that your AoOs were based on how many heads you had...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

that a pyro hydra's combat reflexs meant that each AoO was taken using all 13 heads at once, not that your AoOs were based on how many heads you had...Again, that's RAW. Stupid RAW, but RAW. The 'you get a number of AoOs equal to the number of heads you have' version is probably RAI, though.

[Zeful]

Again, that's RAW. Stupid RAW, but RAW. The 'you get a number of AoOs equal to the number of heads you have' version is probably RAI, though.

Ouch, that's pretty intense, over 24d8 an attack and it gets two AoOs a round.

[kjones]

That's assuming they all hit, mate.

Now, the damage on a pyrohydra/cryohydra's breath weapon... that's daft.

(Hint: a 5-headed pyrohydra is CR 6. Its breath weapon is a 10x10x20 jet of fire that does 15d6 damage, Reflex save DC 17 for half. That's an average of 53 damage.

The party barbarian will have ~ 65 HP, and everyone else will have less. The wizard will have about 25 HP - even if he makes his save, he's toast.

This guy could easily gank the whole party in one round. And this is an encounter that should use up 20% of the party's daily resources...)

[tyckspoon]

Now, the damage on a pyrohydra/cryohydra's breath weapon... that's daft.

(Hint: a 5-headed pyrohydra is CR 6. Its breath weapon is a 10x10x20 jet of fire that does 15d6 damage, Reflex save DC 17 for half. That's an average of 53 damage.

The party barbarian will have ~ 65 HP, and everyone else will have less. The wizard will have about 25 HP - even if he makes his save, he's toast.

This guy could easily gank the whole party in one round. And this is an encounter that should use up 20% of the party's daily resources...)

It's actually 5 separate breath weapons, each one doing 3d6 damage and offering an individual Reflex save for half. Energy Resistance removes most of the danger, and the multiple saves should reduce the average damage you suffer. It's still quite nasty, but hydras in general are puzzle monsters; they'll kill the crap out of if you try to face them head on, but using the right abilities 'solves' them and they're quite easy to take out.

[HamHam]

It's actually 5 separate breath weapons, each one doing 3d6 damage and offering an individual Reflex save for half. Energy Resistance removes most of the danger, and the multiple saves should reduce the average damage you suffer. It's still quite nasty, but hydras in general are puzzle monsters; they'll kill the crap out of if you try to face them head on, but using the right abilities 'solves' them and they're quite easy to take out.

Is that errata? Because by the RAW from the MM:

"Each jet (singular) deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head"

[Zeful]

Is that errata? Because by the RAW from the MM:

"Each jet (singular) deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head"

Your emphasis is backwards. The use of the word "each" indicates the jets are seperate. However that creates the problem of making each breath weapon deal 15d6 damage. That's 75d6 damage in total (each jet does 3d6 damage per head, it has 5 heads so it each jet does 15d6 damage), which will guarantee death for a 6th level party.

[AslanCross]

Seems the redundant emphasis on heads in the RAW version causes it to look like each head breathes X(3d6), where X is the number of heads. I'm sure it's supposed to mean "Each head breathes a jet of fire that deals 3d6 damage."

[Night Monkey]

A player was upgrading his 7th level Cleric to a 14th level one for use in a different game.

Him: How many extra skill points do I get?
Me: Going up 7 levels that's... 21 for you.
Him: Excellent.
(some time later)
Him: Ok, I've put most of them into Wisdom, but I've also increased my Charisma and Constitution, Intelligence a little, and put two more points into Strength.
Me: ...

Less of an "interpreting rules" and more of a "listening to speech" problem, but still...

[knighttp01]

A player was upgrading his 7th level Cleric to a 14th level one for use in a different game.

Him: How many extra skill points do I get?
Me: Going up 7 levels that's... 21 for you.
Him: Excellent.
(some time later)
Him: Ok, I've put most of them into Wisdom, but I've also increased my Charisma and Constitution, Intelligence a little, and put two more points into Strength.
Me: ...

Less of an "interpreting rules" and more of a "listening to speech" problem, but still...

I swear i said ability points, not that that would have been any more correct


In my game as DM (WFRP but the points the same)

Player (cant speak common but has 6th sense, ie i can tell them stuff if they ask nicely): I use 6th sense to determine if theres anything ahead

Me (written): You suspect an ambush, but note you cant speak common

Player: ooc: Can i play pictionary...

I allowed it, if we have another session they are either learning common or being killed

[Oslecamo]

If locate city is a circle it should only be able to find cities that intersect the plane from which it was cast (I should stress that I am not arguing that the locate city bomb should ever be allowed under any circumstance.).

It's a lv 1 spell. What were you expecting? That it summoned dire balors as a free action to serve you one century each?

For a first level spell, finding cities inside a circular plane is pretty decent.

[Random832]

For a first level spell, finding cities inside a circular plane is pretty decent.

I think you're misreading the term plane - he's saying that if it's a circle, it should completely miss any cities that are at a different elevation from where you're standing, even if it's only a couple miles away. And that's the kind of thing that they would put in the spell description.

[aivanther]

I had a DM who said we all had to take Know: Local "Unless you can convince me why you would know nothing about your home." And it wasn't made into a CS, so my level 1 Paladin blew 2 out of his 8 skill points on a stupid skill he NEVER used...

[AstralFire]

I had a DM who said we all had to take Know: Local "Unless you can convince me why you would know nothing about your home." And it wasn't made into a CS, so my level 1 Paladin blew 2 out of his 8 skill points on a stupid skill he NEVER used...

Hell if I know anything about my neighborhood. I'm a hermit webjunkie.

[Curmudgeon]

I had a DM who said we all had to take Know: Local "Unless you can convince me why you would know nothing about your home." And it wasn't made into a CS, so my level 1 Paladin blew 2 out of his 8 skill points on a stupid skill he NEVER used...
Maybe not so useless, if you actually pay attention to the skill rules.
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
...
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD.
...
Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).
Strictly following the rules, you cannot ever identify the race of a level 1 humanoid without training in Knowledge (local), because 1 HD makes the DC 11, and 10 is the limit to make checks without training. So if your DM says "You see an Elf approaching you", that's actually providing information you couldn't have without training, regardless of how much adventuring experience you've got under your belt. Identifying humanoid types is just flat out impossible until you invest at least 1 skill point, by the RAW.

[AstralFire]

I think that counts as Judicia ad Absurdum and goes in the Silly Hatrack.
Judicia ad Absurdum? I just made up a phrase! And it's a cool phrase!

[Choco]

Its a bad idea to even allow called shots to the heart. You allow it, and you will have PCs demanding no penalty on their brilliant energy bloodseeking arrows (ignores concealment and nonliving matter like the chest plate)

Then just because they can, they will add on true strike and 1 shot your BBEG.

That is when you have monsters/NPC's doing the same thing to them. Bet they wont find it so cool then :smalltongue:


Hell if I know anything about my neighborhood. I'm a hermit webjunkie.

Oddly enough I thought the same thing....

Anyway, on the topic... my current DM has a habit of making chars roll for simple, stupid things that shouldnt require a roll (like the ladder incident mentioned earlier). It truly is degrading for a barbarian that has 1-hit killed bosses (by makin em roll massive damage saves) to have to spend like 5 minutes slashing at a steel pipe with his adamantite sword before it finally is broken.

[aivanther]

Maybe not so useless, if you actually pay attention to the skill rules. Strictly following the rules, you cannot ever identify the race of a level 1 humanoid without training in Knowledge (local), because 1 HD makes the DC 11, and 10 is the limit to make checks without training. So if your DM says "You see an Elf approaching you", that's actually providing information you couldn't have without training, regardless of how much adventuring experience you've got under your belt. Identifying humanoid types is just flat out impossible until you invest at least 1 skill point, by the RAW.

Of course, you're assuming he was using that definition of Know: Local, remember, the whole point was that we had to know SOMETHING about our home town...

[Mr.Moron]

It truly is degrading for a barbarian that has 1-hit killed bosses (by makin em roll massive damage saves) to have to spend like 5 minutes slashing at a steel pipe with his adamantite sword before it finally is broken.


What kind of pipe is that? If he's capable of doing 50 damage in 1 attack, 10 rounds in a minute... 5 minutes.. 50 rounds, = 2500 damage, 30hp/inch on steel... ignoring hardness. The "pipe" was solid metal over 2 meters thick?

[AstralFire]

What kind of pipe is that? If he's capable of doing 50 damage in 1 attack, 10 rounds in a minute... 5 minutes.. 50 rounds, = 2500 damage, 30hp/inch on steel... ignoring hardness. The "pipe" was solid metal over 2 meters thick?

Perhaps it was a Mushroom Kingdom campaign.

[Choco]

What kind of pipe is that? If he's capable of doing 50 damage in 1 attack, 10 rounds in a minute... 5 minutes.. 50 rounds, = 2500 damage, 30hp/inch on steel... ignoring hardness. The "pipe" was solid metal over 2 meters thick?

nope, just a couple-inch-thick hollow pipe that shot outta a wall as part of a trap. I know it didn't make sense via the rules, I think he just didn't like that those traps that were meant to slow us down could be gotten past in 1 swing so he fiated it.

[Mr.Moron]

nope, just a couple-inch-thick hollow pipe that shot outta a wall as part of a trap. I know it didn't make sense via the rules, I think he just didn't like that those traps that were meant to slow us down could be gotten past in 1 swing so he fiated it.

This is one of those things I don't get. If you want something to slow down the characters and thy have an Adamatine sword, it shouldn't be an iron pipe. An Iron pipe isn't even going to slow down a low level party. The break DC on Iron Bars is only 24. Assuming you have someone in the party with 14 or higher STR rating and someone to aid another, you can just snap it by taking 20. 2 Minutes tops.

[Zeta Kai]

Maybe not so useless, if you actually pay attention to the skill rules. Strictly following the rules, you cannot ever identify the race of a level 1 humanoid without training in Knowledge (local), because 1 HD makes the DC 11, and 10 is the limit to make checks without training. So if your DM says "You see an Elf approaching you", that's actually providing information you couldn't have without training, regardless of how much adventuring experience you've got under your belt. Identifying humanoid types is just flat out impossible until you invest at least 1 skill point, by the RAW.

And it's also been proven that mere mortals (read: non-Epic characters) cannot identify a Tarrasque. The DC for a Knowledge check to do so would be 58. Good luck with that. Most high-level monsters are like that actually, which is bloody weird.

[AstralFire]

In general, Knowledge skills are something I just pretend don't exist for the most part. They don't make sense on far too many levels, and really expose 3.x's weaknesses when people try to overextend it as a simulationist game. The 'multiple levels of knowledge with different DCs' thing they did late in 3.x's life was a real good idea, but they didn't do it retroactive, meaning that it's a lot of ad hocing.
And I really don't get why the number of orcs you slay improves your maximum capacity to play the flute or recite the ancient kings of Phantasmagoria, the toymaker kingdom. But this'll just start me on my general rant about trying to use level systems simulationally...

[Mr.Moron]

And it's also been proven that mere mortals (read: non-Epic characters) cannot identify a Tarrasque. The DC for a Knowledge check to do so would be 58. Good luck with that. Most high-level monsters are like that actually, which is bloody weird.

A high-level archivist could have a pretty go of it.


+65 Knowledge =20[Ranks] + 11[Int] + 2[Lore Mastery] +15[Divine Insight] + 2[Tool] +5[Tome of Worldly Memory] +10[10 hours Research as Master of the Unturned Page].

An average result of 75.

[oxinabox]

Me: "can i throw my dagger, it has a range increment?"
DM: "No, it's not ranged, it's melee, to throw it you would take a -4 penalty to attack"
Me: "Oh, i see i need a Throwwing dagger."
DM: "Yes, it needs the throwing descriptor in it's name."

But i only relised yesterday that he was wrong, i'm sure he'll aquest when i show him the SRD.

ALso same dm:
me: "do i get flanking bonus"
Dm: "no, your infront, everyone else does. you don't"

Maybe these are varient rules.

[Oslecamo]

I think you're misreading the term plane - he's saying that if it's a circle, it should completely miss any cities that are at a different elevation from where you're standing, even if it's only a couple miles away. And that's the kind of thing that they would put in the spell description.

I'm perfectly aware that it would miss cities too up or too down, and I still consider it perfectly balanced this way.

And no, it's not the kind of thing they would point out in the spell description, just like they wouldn't put on the description of fireball that creatures outside of the volume of effect aren't affected, or that create water allows you to shoot radioactive lasers from your eyes. It's obvious stuff. Only nonobvious stuff needs to be pointed out, like polymorph not chagning your actual HP.

It is a circle. Point. The writers expect the readers to have basic knowledge of mathematics. Only a munchkin would twist the word circle into sphere or cylinder to try to make the bombo worck.

[Random832]

Strictly following the rules, you cannot ever identify the race of a level 1 humanoid without training in Knowledge (local), because 1 HD makes the DC 11

I don't think the HD value used to set the DC for that includes class levels or advancement HD, and medium humanoids have no racial HD. (but, yeah, RAW for identifying creatures is pretty nonsensical regardless)


I'm perfectly aware that it would miss cities too up or too down, and I still consider it perfectly balanced this way.

Except it's perfectly useless this way.

The most logical interpretation is a circle following the ground, not a circle keeping at your elevation.


It is a circle. Point. The writers expect the readers to have basic knowledge of mathematics. Only a munchkin would twist the word circle into sphere or cylinder to try to make the bombo worck.

Yeah but it doesn't take a munchkin to expect the spell to be able to locate a city on a hill.

Besides, there are plenty of broken things that are much more clearly allowed by the rules - finding a way to contort the rules into not allowing them is a waste of effort when you can just say all the rules were written with the idea in mind that there would be a sane DM at the other end of the table.

[AstralFire]

Not withstanding any of the arguments about the Locate City Bomb, which I've no interest in, most concepts of a city include it having both airspace at visible range and the rights to the ground beneath it for quite a distance. This makes Locate City's circle quite functional for anything but the most bizarre and extreme topographical changes within a short range.

[Curmudgeon]

And it's also been proven that mere mortals (read: non-Epic characters) cannot identify a Tarrasque. The DC for a Knowledge check to do so would be 58. Good luck with that. Most high-level monsters are like that actually, which is bloody weird. Really? It seems that a Cloistered Cleric (all Knowledges are class skills) with the right domains would have little problem with this check.

23 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana (non-Epic limit at level 20)
INT 36 for +13 18 starting INT
Fire/Silvanesti/Gray/Sun Elf race for +2 INT
+5 ability score increases (levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20)
+5 inherent bonus from Tome of Clear Thought +5
+6 enhancement bonus from Headband of Intellect +6
Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana) for +3
A Masterwork Tool specific to the job grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check.
A Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone) grants a +1 luck bonus on skill checks.
A Cleric can cast Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) to provide a +20 competence bonus on a single skill check.
A Cleric with the Glory domain can cast Crown of Glory to give a +4 morale bonus on skill checks; or one with the Courage domain can cast Heroism, Greater for a +4 morale bonus on skill checks.
An Orange Ioun Stone would give +1 caster level, and a Bead of Karma would give +4 caster level, making the Cleric's caster level 25 at level 20.
A casting of Moment of Prescience (available in the Competition, Destiny, Fate, Luck, and Time domains) will give an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single skill check.

That's a skill modifier of +91 before rolling the d20.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I don't think the HD value used to set the DC for that includes class levels or advancement HD, and medium humanoids have no racial HD.

As a matter of fact, humanoids technically do have 1 HD, but replace 1 HD with class levels if they take any:


Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

So while the vast majority of humanoids are classed NPCs, you can encounter a 1 HD elf monster.

[Forbiddenwar]

Me: "can i throw my dagger, it has a range increment?"
DM: "No, it's not ranged, it's melee, to throw it you would take a -4 penalty to attack"
Me: "Oh, i see i need a Throwwing dagger."
DM: "Yes, it needs the throwing descriptor in it's name."

But i only relised yesterday that he was wrong, i'm sure he'll aquest when i show him the SRD.

ALso same dm:
me: "do i get flanking bonus"
Dm: "no, your infront, everyone else does. you don't"

Maybe these are varient rules.

I hate to admit it, but I've made this mistake before as a dm:smallredface:
Then I started using d20srd

[FMArthur]

Really? It seems that a Cloistered Cleric (all Knowledges are class skills) with the right domains would have little problem with this check.

23 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana (non-Epic limit at level 20)
INT 36 for +13 18 starting INT
Fire/Silvanesti/Gray/Sun Elf race for +2 INT
+5 ability score increases (levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20)
+5 inherent bonus from Tome of Clear Thought +5
+6 enhancement bonus from Headband of Intellect +6
Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana) for +3
A Masterwork Tool specific to the job grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check.
A Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone) grants a +1 luck bonus on skill checks.
A Cleric can cast Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) to provide a +20 competence bonus on a single skill check.
A Cleric with the Glory domain can cast Crown of Glory to give a +4 morale bonus on skill checks; or one with the Courage domain can cast Heroism, Greater for a +4 morale bonus on skill checks.
An Orange Ioun Stone would give +1 caster level, and a Bead of Karma would give +4 caster level, making the Cleric's caster level 25 at level 20.
A casting of Moment of Prescience (available in the Competition, Destiny, Fate, Luck, and Time domains) will give an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single skill check.

That's a skill modifier of +91 before rolling the d20.

:smallbiggrin: Wow. I would never have guessed that a character built around doing something trivial could accomplish it.

[Kurald Galain]

:smallbiggrin: Wow. I would never have guessed that a character built around doing something trivial could accomplish it.

And then there's the Omniscificer, who literally gets an infinite bonus to his knowledge checks...

[Curmudgeon]

:smallbiggrin: Wow. I would never have guessed that a character built around doing something trivial could accomplish it. Huh? No, this is a standard Cloistered Cleric, with all that that entails -- except for the single Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana) feat I threw in there just for grins. Cloistered Clerics can be combat powerhouses thanks to Knowledge Devotion and various spells like Divine Power. Since they have access to all Cleric spells, picking the ones that are helpful in boosting a skill check doesn't preclude picking other spells to meet different requirements. But specifically with Knowledge Devotion, a high skill check result will lead to the maximum boost of +5 to attack and damage versus all creature types, so the spells that make that possible aren't exactly useless. +25 to hit before you add in STR/DEX mod and weapon enhancement bonus is pretty neat.

[Flickerdart]

But the Tarrasque is a unique monster that spends most of its time slumbering beneath the earth. It makes sense that your run-of-the-mill PC can't recognize it even after a career of grinding demon faces into the dirt.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What are the worse arguments or interpretations you have heard?

I had a player try to take ability focus (spellcasting), because "spellcasting is a special attack".

It had something to do with partially charged wands being freely available in magic marts.

[Dragonmuncher]

I've always disliked the fact that Practiced Spellcaster can be taken with Wild Mage to totally negate the negative part of the +/- caster level feature of the Wild Mage.

It's like Natural Spell for a Druid- there is perhaps no feat that is mechanically better for the class, and little to no reason NOT to take it.

[Random832]

Really there should be an "obscurity score" that's separate from the hit dice. "Bigger creatures are harder to recognize" is just kind of dumb.

[quick_comment]

But the Tarrasque is a unique monster that spends most of its time slumbering beneath the earth. It makes sense that your run-of-the-mill PC can't recognize it even after a career of grinding demon faces into the dirt.

Exactly, its one of a kind. Myths and legends are told about it.

Im by no means a high level adventurer, but I could recognize a dragon rampaging through my town.

[Choco]

But the Tarrasque is a unique monster that spends most of its time slumbering beneath the earth. It makes sense that your run-of-the-mill PC can't recognize it even after a career of grinding demon faces into the dirt.

It is also a creature of legend :smallbiggrin:

I doubt anyone IRL has ever seen a cliche fantasy dragon, but if one did exist and we did happen to see it, we would recognize it without ever having come across it before. Knowing all of its strengths, weaknesses, and stats, however, are a different story.

edit: *grumble* ninjas... *grumble* Pirates are much cooler anyway....

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Really there should be an "obscurity score" that's separate from the hit dice. "Bigger creatures are harder to recognize" is just kind of dumb.


Exactly, its one of a kind. Myths and legends are told about it.

Im by no means a high level adventurer, but I could recognize a dragon rampaging through my town.

Exactly; the more powerful something is, the more likely you are to have heard of it, because while your average commoner probably couldn't tell a shambling mound from a tendriculous, he probably cowers in terror at the mention of the tarrasque, a balor, and so on.

An easy solution would be to have a "parabolic" DC for recognizing a creature (easy for common, low-HD foes and legendary, high-HD foes but hard for the weird middle-tier one) and then base knowing unique powers on HD. A commoner would know that the tarrasque can eat cities and is practically invulnerable; knowing that it regenerates without a wish and reflects magic, not so much.

[Project_Mayhem]

Yeah but it doesn't take a munchkin to expect the spell to be able to locate a city on a hill.

Actually, if it only locates cities on the same flat plane the caster stands in, then (assuming a spherical-ish world) it can only locate a city your standing in. Unless it's any city that intersects the plane I guess. Even then, theres only so high that medieval buildings tend to reach.

[Lapak]

It is also a creature of legend :smallbiggrin:

I doubt anyone IRL has ever seen a cliche fantasy dragon, but if one did exist and we did happen to see it, we would recognize it without ever having come across it before. Knowing all of its strengths, weaknesses, and stats, however, are a different story.

edit: *grumble* ninjas... *grumble* Pirates are much cooler anyway....'Creature of legend' in an era of modern communication means something very different from 'creature of legend' in many fantasy settings. It's entirely possible that very few sages in the world would be able to identify the Tarrasque: for the most part, everyone nearby when it wakes up is killed. The few survivors will be scattered and homeless, and their tales might be regarded as unreliable or end up corrupted after a number of re-tellings. In an environment where most communication is verbal, where neither newspapers nor television nor the internet are widely available to catch up on obscure information from the next kingdom over - information that would dribble in piecemeal and have to be assembled in order to make any kind of sense? It's entirely possible that almost no one WOULD be able to identify a monster like that, particularly a unique monster where there's only one of it and that one is not active all the time.

EDIT: I don't buy the 'more powerful, more famous' argument either; a farmer might well have had his flock raided by gnolls, but what possible interaction has he ever had with a balor? Or has anyone he knows had, for that matter? He may have vaguely heard of one as a horrible monster, but he wouldn't recognize it on sight.

[Random832]

An easy solution would be to have a "parabolic" DC for recognizing a creature (easy for common, low-HD foes and legendary, high-HD foes but hard for the weird middle-tier one) and then base knowing unique powers on HD. A commoner would know that the tarrasque can eat cities and is practically invulnerable; knowing that it regenerates without a wish and reflects magic, not so much.

Well, another thing to consider - once you see the red dragon breathe fire, it shouldn't take a genius to think of using cold against it (or vice versa a white dragon).

And knowing what breath weapon an evil dragon has shouldn't necessarily be so difficult either - even if you ignore the semi-dubious color coding, there should be plenty of people around whose countryside has been terrorized by them.

Really every creature needs a chart of knowledge check DCs like in later 3.5 stuff.

I'll work on a format.

[Zeful]

Well, another thing to consider - once you see the red dragon breathe fire, it shouldn't take a genius to think of using cold against it (or vice versa a white dragon).

Actually that's a pretty big logical jump. It only makes sense to us because of the old 5 element alchemidial system (Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Æther) we have where opposite elements opposed each other (earth to air, fire to water and vice versa). Under the chinese alchemy elements (Metal, Earth, Wood, Water, Fire (unsure about order)) where a given element overpowers the one next one in line, the assumptions become very different. D&D doesn't have such a system so Cold Vulnerability on creatures of fire isn't necessarily the logical progression.

[Kurald Galain]

Exactly; the more powerful something is, the more likely you are to have heard of it, because while your average commoner probably couldn't tell a shambling mound from a tendriculous, he probably cowers in terror at the mention of the tarrasque, a balor, and so on.

Yes, but while he's more likely to have heard of it, he is less likely to have heard something accurate about it. A tarrasque is a huge winged lizard that breathes fire, isn't it? And a balor, wasn't that one of those tentacled monsters that live in the sea and drag ships down? Oh, and I've heard that you can only kill them with an icicle during the full moon!

[The Glyphstone]

Really every creature needs a chart of knowledge check DCs like in later 3.5 stuff.
.


Just as long as it's not a DC15 Knowledge check to know that bears live in caves...

[Random832]

Another thing broken about Knowledge:


Try Again

No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

If it represents what you know rather than an effort to recall, then you should always be able to take 10 even in combat.


Just as long as it's not a DC15 Knowledge check to know that bears live in caves...

If you see a bear in a cave it's a spot check. It wouldn't be unreasonable to require a knowledge (nature) check at a decent DC to know whether or not it's unusual for a particular kind of bear to be in a cave at this time of year, or for that matter for a cave to be where you should go looking for one.

[Blackfang108]

See invisibility works all the time, doesnt require concentration, removes his concealment and the miss chance

Not if he's also got Blink on.

Friggin overkill...

(Me: ECL 22 Duskblade, Him: ECL 22 Spellthief with Greater Invisibility, Blink, and Spell Immuinity. I was ####ed.)

[AstralFire]

Actually that's a pretty big logical jump. It only makes sense to us because of the old 5 element alchemidial system (Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Æther) we have where opposite elements opposed each other (earth to air, fire to water and vice versa). Under the chinese alchemy elements (Metal, Earth, Wood, Water, Fire (unsure about order)) where a given element overpowers the one next one in line, the assumptions become very different. D&D doesn't have such a system so Cold Vulnerability on creatures of fire isn't necessarily the logical progression.

Consider that the primary four things in the Elemental entry are Earth, Fire, Air and Water. I think it's safe to say that D&D is in implicitly in a world which draws much from the classic Hellenistic elements.

[quick_comment]

Not if he's also got Blink on.

Friggin overkill...

(Me: ECL 22 Duskblade, Him: ECL 22 Spellthief with Greater Invisibility, Blink, and Spell Immuinity. I was ####ed.)

It still reduces the miss chance to 20%, so you are evenly matched.

[Eldritch_Ent]

The most logical interpretation is a circle following the ground, not a circle keeping at your elevation.

Yeah but it doesn't take a munchkin to expect the spell to be able to locate a city on a hill.

Strictly speaking, spells like Fireball explicitly work with Explosive Spell, and Fireball has the same shape as Locate City. (Albeit a different range and such.)

[Random832]

I've started a table at http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Random832/Knowledge_DCs if anyone wants to help fill stuff in

[Pharaoh's Fist]

DC 5 to know it's a red dragon...

... because the color won't give it away?

[Flickerdart]

DC 5 to know it's a red dragon...

... because the color won't give it away?
Presumably they're not pure red. Off-colour scales, glare, dirt, age...they might look more brown than red.

[AstralFire]

Presumably they're not pure red. Off-colour scales, glare, dirt, age...they might look more brown than red.

What would a Brown Dragon breathe? Chocolate? Sand clouds?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What would a Brown Dragon breathe?

I do not even wish to think about it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

'Creature of legend' in an era of modern communication means something very different from 'creature of legend' in many fantasy settings.

D&D isn't "most fantasy worlds." Divinations can tell you what the weird creature that attacked you was; sending and the like can spread news quite fast; teleport can evacuate survivors to spread the tale.


EDIT: I don't buy the 'more powerful, more famous' argument either; a farmer might well have had his flock raided by gnolls, but what possible interaction has he ever had with a balor? Or has anyone he knows had, for that matter? He may have vaguely heard of one as a horrible monster, but he wouldn't recognize it on sight.


Yes, but while he's more likely to have heard of it, he is less likely to have heard something accurate about it. A tarrasque is a huge winged lizard that breathes fire, isn't it? And a balor, wasn't that one of those tentacled monsters that live in the sea and drag ships down? Oh, and I've heard that you can only kill them with an icicle during the full moon!

Think of it this way:

You are, in the real world, the equivalent of a commoner--one of the many average Joes of the world. If you're a religious person, {Scrubbed}
Now imagine the world worked like D&D, where there is a greater-than-even chance that at least once in your life Beelzebub personally appears in your hometown and starts destroying absolutely everything in sight, except of course the people he decides to take back to Hell with him to torture for eternity. Michael the Archangel shows up to battle Beelzebub's minor demonic allies, knocking down the post office and subway station to get to them. Old Father Williams comes out of a nearby church, shouts a prayer, and topples City Hall on Beelzebub's head. Beelzebub's right-hand devil sets the town on fire. Once the bad guys are all banished back to hell, Bishop Smith appears out of thin air, waves his hand, and disappears while the city repairs itself before your very eyes.

If you know a passable amount of mythology in the here and know, I bet you'd be damn sure you knew as much as possible in a world where what you don't know can and will easily kill you.

[Random832]

DC 5 to know it's a red dragon...

... because the color won't give it away?

DC 5 to know there is a specific type of dragon called a red dragon, rather than it just being a generic "dragon" that happens to have red scale coloration.

Without making that check you don't know that your experience from fighting the white dragon on your last adventure isn't going to be 100% relevant.

[Eldan]

I've started a table at http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Random832/Knowledge_DCs if anyone wants to help fill stuff in

Good idea. I'll probably fill in a few tomorrow as well. Starting at the beginning of the SRD should be good.

[Lapak]

D&D isn't "most fantasy worlds." Divinations can tell you what the weird creature that attacked you was; sending and the like can spread news quite fast; teleport can evacuate survivors to spread the tale.This assumes a very high-magic setting, which many D&D campaigns aren't. Assuming that anything is true across all possible D&D games is kind of silly.

Aside from that, even in high-magic campaigns most people do not have access to accurate divinations, and I can't think of any game worlds I've heard of where high-level wizards would automatically go into action with teleports to evacuate commoners in the event of a disaster.
Now imagine the world worked like D&D, where there is a greater-than-even chance that at least once in your life Beelzebub personally appears in your hometown and starts destroying absolutely everything in sight, except of course the people he decides to take back to Hell with him to torture for eternity. Michael the Archangel shows up to battle Beelzebub's minor demonic allies, knocking down the post office and subway station to get to them. Old Father Williams comes out of a nearby church, shouts a prayer, and topples City Hall on Beelzebub's head. Beelzebub's right-hand devil sets the town on fire. Once the bad guys are all banished back to hell, Bishop Smith appears out of thin air, waves his hand, and disappears while the city repairs itself before your very eyes.Yeah. This assumes an EXTREMELY high magic setting, and even then such a thing would most certainly not have a better-than-even chance of happening in a randomly chosen minor village or town. If such occurrences were common, you wouldn't be looking at a points-of-light setting but a downright apocalyptic one. Most campaigns I've played in and run don't have 'Old Father Williams', the village priest, as a high-level spellcaster capable of throwing down with demons. In many campaigns I've been involved with, the PC spellcasters are some of the highest-level characters in the world, and there is absolutely no assumption that the local bishop is a high-level caster either.

I am 100% sure that there are exceptions to this. But I don't think that most D&D campaign worlds fall into that category. Even the Forgotten Realms doesn't assume that every hamlet has an Elminster in it, or that every farming community will be invaded by the undead at least once a generation. Heck, it would be counter-productive to assume that; if it's an everyday kind of thing, where is the heroic adventure in fighting it off when it does happen? It would turn the PCs into glorified exterminators rather than heroes.


If you know a passable amount of mythology in the here and know, I bet you'd be damn sure you knew as much as possible in a world where what you don't know can and will easily kill you.I'd know as much as I had the time and resources to find out. For a pseudo-medieval peasant, time may be easy to come by, but sources of obscure knowledge sure as heck aren't.

EDIT: Also, in the real world people are often surprisingly ignorant, even willfully ignorant, about things that can and will kill them. Why would fantasy people be any different?

[Shinizak]

What would a Brown Dragon breathe? Chocolate? Sand clouds?

Coffee, duh.

[Eldan]

Yeah... normally, the village priest is an adept of levels 3-4, rarely a cleric if he's really good. And Devils can't just port to the material plane, someone needs to let them in.

[Night Monkey]

A high-level archivist could have a pretty go of it.


+65 Knowledge =20[Ranks] + 11[Int] + 2[Lore Mastery] +15[Divine Insight] + 2[Tool] +5[Tome of Worldly Memory] +10[10 hours Research as Master of the Unturned Page].

An average result of 75.

Tarrasque: *appears* Raaar!
Fighter: What the hells is that thing?!
Archivist: Ooh, let me find out. *runs to library*

Ten hours of research later.

Archivist: *returns* I know, it's a Tarrasque!
Fighter's Corpse: ...

[Moriato]

What would a Brown Dragon breathe? Chocolate? Sand clouds?

Probably hot fudge

[Night Monkey]

Probably hot fudge

"And that's the story of how I made my first million gold pieces..."

[Eldan]

Weren't brown dragons sand dragons?

[Zeful]

Consider that the primary four things in the Elemental entry are Earth, Fire, Air and Water. I think it's safe to say that D&D is in implicitly in a world which draws much from the classic Hellenistic elements.

Point.

RE: Knowledge checks: I'm going to point out that the best one can do is create guidelines rather than a hard-and-fast ruleset for determining knowledge DCs. Because it's the DM or world builder's job to know the frequency of contact between Dragons (or any other creautre) and the society the PCs are from. Fareun Knowledge DCs for dragons are going to be different from Ebberon's Knowledge DCs for dragons.

[Knaight]

Yet that doesn't mean that for many people those come to them intuitively. When it comes to elements here we have a lot, and they are arranged on the periodic table. The periodic table is about as intuitive as it possibly gets. Yet some people are more comfortable with the 4 or 5 element systems, despite them being a load of crap. And for a lot of our history we actually thought they were either close to how things actually worked, or how things actually worked. So for all we know D&D world could be based off the assumption that all matter is just compressed light of different colors. Thus dragons represent certain colors, and are best fought with opposite colors on the color wheel. And as we know red is the opposite of green. Green is earth, acid and metal. It makes perfect sense, and seems logical enough. Similarly white opposes black. Earth again, more acid and metal. Blue opposes orange. Fire, but failing that lighting is yellow, so it would be the closest match. Makes sense.

[Eldan]

It would probably be best to drop the base DC line (i.e. 0 for dragons) in that table and give a guideline for rarity modifiers. I.e. common creatures or those often present in legends: 5, rare, but known ones 10, unique beings from beyond the stars 30 and so on.

[Zeta Kai]

What would a Brown Dragon breathe? Chocolate? Sand clouds?

I think we're all dancing around the obvious...

[The Rose Dragon]

I think we're all dancing around the obvious...

Acid.

Why was that so hard? There are actual stats for a brown dragon and they breathe acid.

[averagejoe]

Exactly, its one of a kind. Myths and legends are told about it.

Im by no means a high level adventurer, but I could recognize a dragon rampaging through my town.

Oh? And how would you know it's not a wyvern? Or a Yrthak? Or Ravid? How about tyrannosaurus, manticore, hydra, dragonne, pit fiend, horned devil, or any other vaguely dragon-ish thing? (Note I'm going by the illustrations.) And that's only from the first monster manuel. The third has ambush drakes, dracotaurs, dragon eels, rage drakes, ssvaklors, and a buncha made up dinosaurs. IV has the numerous spawns of Tiamat. And that's just me being conservative; I could probably argue the case for certain half-fiends, shrieking terrors, slaughterstone creatures, remoraz, dragon turtles, purple worms, and the tarrasque itself. And getting into half dragon creatures like gryphons...

Can your character tell the differences between all of these from just common knowledge? How many commoners have been attacked by hydras then reported, "It was a dragon that took my flock!" The world of DnD is fairly diverse, even among mythical creatures. The lay-man's knowledge will be far from perfect.

[Gralamin]

Acid.

Why was that so hard? There are actual stats for a brown dragon and they breathe acid.

...Yes, Acid. Thats what he meant. :smallcool:

[Alejandro]

What would a Brown Dragon breathe? Chocolate? Sand clouds?

Acid, at least in 2nd ed.

[Malfunctioned]

...Yes, Acid. Thats what he meant. :smallcool:
Well it could burn a bit depending on what they've eaten......

[The Rose Dragon]

Well it could burn a bit depending on what they've eaten......

You're thinking of Yellow Dwagons. Brown Dragons breathe acid.

[AstralFire]

Acid.

Why was that so hard? There are actual stats for a brown dragon and they breathe acid.

My knowledge of monsters is about as good as my knowledge of text messaging - I've heard a few rumors here and there, I'll occasionally bring myself to use one when absolutely necessary, but I try to stick with the less flashy stuff (PC races/voice.) I don't own any Monster Manuals, so I'm only familiar with the ones in the SRD and I've heard of Radiant Dragons.

[TSED]

I'm not sure how many people are just missing the unspoken taboo or being willfully ignorant of it.


ANYWAYS: Dragon-creatures probably have a higher DC, but TRUE dragons are probably not going to take much effort to identify. Probably higher for gem and force / prismatic ones, though. And certain kobolds are just going to require vast knowledge of kobold societies.

[FlawedParadigm]

Brown Dragons breathe Crap Golems from Erfworld. There, I said it. Happy?

[Lamech]

Question wouldn't the DC for indentifying a dragon go up as it ages? So a great red wyrm would be hard for even high levels, but its nearby badies would be easy? Thats kind of like saying it would be hard for a normal commoner to tell if the PC's are a human or elf or orc.

[NeoVid]

Thats kind of like saying it would be hard for a normal commoner to tell if the PC's are a human or elf or orc.

By RAW, that's true. And it keeps getting harder the higher level the human/elf/orc in question is.

[Kurald Galain]

By RAW, that's true. And it keeps getting harder the higher level the human/elf/orc in question is.

Of course. Too many glowing magical items on their person diverts attention away from the pointy ears.

[Zeta Kai]

Brown Dragons breathe Crap Golems from Erfworld. There, I said it. Happy?

No, because I beat 'em to it. :smallannoyed:

[sofawall]

I do not even wish to think about it.

Sir has made me choke on Coca-Cola. Sir is quite amusing.

[Domigorgon]

Player fails a Spot check.
"Wait", he says, "I'll roll a Jump instead!" and he rolls 20. "Do I see anything now?"

His reasoning was that you can see better from a high vantage point.

[averagejoe]

By RAW, that's true. And it keeps getting harder the higher level the human/elf/orc in question is.

*looks*

Huh, that is true. For RAI one would count the number of monstrous hit dice only, I think. Even so, while the system isn't as bad as everyone says it is for monsters, it breaks down rather badly when it comes to humanoids. Although RAW does note this DC is, "in general," not absolute. I think the implication is to use the HD of their MM entry, since the information is about the monster type in general, and not a particular monster.

[AstralFire]

No, because I beat 'em to it. :smallannoyed:

I think Erfworld's a little older, sorry ZK. >.> And Dogma beat you both.


Player fails a Spot check.
"Wait", he says, "I'll roll a Jump instead!" and he rolls 20. "Do I see anything now?"

His reasoning was that you can see better from a high vantage point.

-snorts-

That made me laugh, hard.

[Forbiddenwar]

By RAW, that's true. And it keeps getting harder the higher level the human/elf/orc in question is.

You have won the thread as worst rule interpretation ever.
DC increases by hit dice not character level, which in this case would be the racial hit dice of the character, usually 0.


In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

[NEO|Phyte]

You have won the thread as worst rule interpretation ever.
DC increases by hit dice not character level

Fun fact: character levels include hit dice in all cases outside of monster classes.

[Sanguine]

You have won the thread as worst rule interpretation ever.
DC increases by hit dice not character level, which in this case would be the racial hit dice of the character, usually 0.

AH but character levels provide hit dice.

Stupid ninjas

[Forbiddenwar]

more fun, srd states monsters hit dice so RAW would mean HD from monster not from class.

[Jack Zander]

You have won the thread as worst rule interpretation ever.
DC increases by hit dice not character level, which in this case would be the racial hit dice of the character, usually 0.

And your hit dice are determined by... wait for it... your character level!

[Forbiddenwar]

or maybe i've slipped into RAI

[AstralFire]

or maybe i've slipped into RAI

I think you have. It's not explicitly spelled out here, and I think there's only like one other case where the rules refer to base HD rather than advanced HD, but it's the logical answer since becoming a better singer should not make you harder to identify as a human.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I think you have. It's not explicitly spelled out here, and I think there's only like one other case where the rules refer to base HD rather than advanced HD, but it's the logical answer since becoming a better singer should not make you harder to identify as a human.

Michael Jackson.

[AstralFire]

Michael Jackson.

Well played, sir.
http://www.theanteheroes.com/Humor/Wellplayed.jpg

Well. Played.
http://www.theanteheroes.com/Humor/wellplayed2.jpg

[Lamech]

more fun, srd states monsters hit dice so RAW would mean HD from monster not from class.

No it states "monster's HD". see those two characters. Huge differance, the higher level the elf the harder it is to identify.

[Irreverent Fool]

Wait a minute, even if the Locate City bomb is a circle instead of a sphere, what happens to buildings that fail the saving throws? Falling 5 feet is nothing to a character, but a building?

Explosive Spell only moves stuff the minimum distance to be out of its effect. Since damage is done per 5 feet moved and the shortest distance out of the circle is going to be up or down. Since the circle has no height, how much higher or lower do you need to be moved to be out of it?


Strictly speaking, spells like Fireball explicitly work with Explosive Spell, and Fireball has the same shape as Locate City. (Albeit a different range and such.)

Fireball does NOT have the same shape as locate city. Fireball is a 20'foot radius SPREAD, which means it spreads from a single point 20' in every direction. Locate City is a circle. This has all been discussed before. Take a look at the Locate City Bomb thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72212&page=3)


Player fails a Spot check.
"Wait", he says, "I'll roll a Jump instead!" and he rolls 20. "Do I see anything now?"

His reasoning was that you can see better from a high vantage point.

I approve of this reasoning and recommend that the Ninja class have the ability to use jump in place of spot. Unfortunately though, I think by the RAW that jumping will actually make it more difficult to see an opponent unless you get above an obstacle that was between you and the spotee, since spot checks are modified by distance between the spotter and the spotee.

obnoxious
sig

[Forbiddenwar]

As a DM, This is how I play:
If I agree with a player's interpretation, it must work for NPCs as well as PCs, in exactly the same way. And there are a LOT more npcs as there are PCs.

Sometimes players back down at this point.

For the example of using a jump check instead of spot, I would point out that a wizard's toad familiar could then "spot" all the rogues, monks, etc of the party. To follow his reasoning (height=spot) then a bird familiar doesn't even have to roll, making a wizard or sorcerer someone who always knows where everyone is.

[Forbiddenwar]

has any player really tried to use locate city bomb in an actual game? it's a thought experiment which doesn't work, at least as RAW. Now DMs on the other hand are only limited by the rules of story and challenge, so I can see DMs using it, but not PCs

[Mr.Moron]

has any player really tried to use locate city bomb in an actual game? it's a thought experiment which doesn't work, at least as RAW. Now DMs on the other hand are only limited by the rules of story and challenge, so I can see DMs using it, but not PCs

A DM doesn't have to torture the RAW. The can just straight up create long-range city destroying magic as they desire.

[Forbiddenwar]

A DM doesn't have to torture the RAW. The can just straight up create long-range city destroying magic as they desire.

Exactly! that is what i was trying to say, but you have said it infinitely better.