Celia Redeemed

[Ronan]

At #669 we see that she is only naïve, not a blunt head like at least I thought she was. I Like her again \o/

I stand here as a *former* Celia disliker (never got to hate)

Comments?

[Liwen]

For me, her naive idealism in the ways of peace is her most critical and annoying flaw. But I never got further that being annoyed at times by this character. I'm glad she will soon return to the elemental plain of air now. She clearly doesn't fit into this whole 'adventuring thing'.

I still give her a positive respect for her contribution in the Trial scene and with convincing Haley to leave Azure City. That was probably the two most helpful things she ever done (oh almost forget, she saved Haley's life and drag away the Linear Guild)

[Kaytara]

It does explain her pacifism and the apparent inconsistency of her having cheered Haley on at times, but Celia is not primarily hated for her pacifism. She is hated for the fact that she knows and admits that she doesn't know what's going on and then still proceeds to act as if she does know what's going on.

Besides, she's rather self-righteous. Giving away someone else's money without asking them specifically to make them pay for what is a transgression against YOUR views is just bad taste.

That said, I always found Celia more amusing (especially in the way she exasperated Haley) than annoying. I don't hate her. But I think the above is part of why some people do.

[King of Nowhere]

I wasn't among those who were particularly annoyed by her, yet I never understood her until today.

I figured she was hypocrite for not resorting to violence but letting Haley do it for her, and for rooting for Haley when she was killing people.
Now it makes more sense. She just don't understand the existance of Evil.

In the plane of air no one tries to kill you for looking funny at them years ago, so Celia don't realiza the thieve's guild were exactly that kind of people. Makes me wonder what kind of law she studies, I suppose criminal code is not her specialty. It seems she don't realize what is a "kill or die" situation, even after being in one herself.

It also seems she totally misunderstood Haley. She figures Haley killed the thieves because it was more convenient for her, or because she had a personal grudge against Crystal. While surely defending her money from the guild was a good reason for Haley to kill them, I don't think it would have been a good reason if those thieves weren't evil bastards.
I suppose Celia, meeting a robber, would give him her wallet to avoid anyone being hurt. Probably, when studying law, she figures a condamned criminal spontaneously walk into prison and lock the door behind himself.
She's not surrounded by evil people, so the need to defend from evil people is foreign to her.

And those few times she encouraged violence was just a byeffect of adrenaline.
I'm liking Celia much more after that.



It could have been a good piece of comedy to have Celia talk with Miko about smiting evil...

[Optimystik]

She's just about gone, that's all that matters to me. That and V is still the party caster.

Next arc!

[Ichneumon]

I don't think she is "naive", just idealistic.

[Mina Kobold]

I don't think she is "naive", just idealistic.

I agree. She only knows how a normal school-life works and thus couldn't understand how different the mortal world is, we would all have reacted just as bad or worse to the situation you know.

[Ichneumon]

I agree. She only knows how a normal school-life works and thus couldn't understand how different the mortal world is, we would all have reacted just as bad or worse to the situation you know.

Indeed, altough I understand why the character in comic find Celia's morality and behaviour annoying, I found her character entertaining to watch and interact with a world she didn't really understand.

[Illven]

At #699 we see that she is only naïve, not a blunt head like at least I thought she was. I Like her again \o/

I stand here as a *former* Celia disliker (never got to hate)

Comments?

Now how come you're seeing thirty comics into the future, and more importanly can you let us

[Berserk Monk]

At #699 we see that she is only naïve, not a blunt head like at least I thought she was. I Like her again \o/

I stand here as a *former* Celia disliker (never got to hate)

Comments?

It still doesn't justify the fact she knows absolutely nothing about humans (not being able to shot lightning from their wrists). It does make her less hated, but that means in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) she knowingly believed the danger of zapping and potentially killing two people with her lightning. Also, aren't there evil air elementals that I'm sure would be willing to hurt others on their plane. I'll check the monster manuals later.

[Lord Seth]

I don't this this has "redeemed Celia" in any way. What this strip DID confirm to me that is her relationship with Roy still feels stiff and awkward. I've never seen any real chemistry between the two, and throwing in some "they had sex!" doesn't make their relationship seem any more real.

[Acero]

i always liked her.

she works at the order's locigal thinking..........

and she can shoot lightning:smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

Since I've never understood the hate Celia got on the boards, my feelings on her remain unchanged.

[Acero]

It could have been a good piece of comedy to have Celia talk with Miko about smiting evil...

i dont think humans can use fairy spells, or vice-versa.

neverless, it would be hilarious

[Ancalagon]

Since I've never understood the hate Celia got on the boards, my feelings on her remain unchanged.

"Hate" is a strong word. I think most people simply expressed "annoyance". Large difference.

[ZeroNumerous]

Since I've never understood the hate Celia got on the boards, my feelings on her remain unchanged.

Take one part moron. Add one part Crazy Foreigner. Stir. Thats why I at least hate Celia.

She's 'dating' a human, and knows nothing about them. Didn't even bother making her DC 10 Know(Nature) check to know that humans can't fire lightning out of their appendages.

[Ozymandias9]

It also seems she totally misunderstood Haley. She figures Haley killed the thieves because it was more convenient for her, or because she had a personal grudge against Crystal. While surely defending her money from the guild was a good reason for Haley to kill them, I don't think it would have been a good reason if those thieves weren't evil bastards.
I suppose Celia, meeting a robber, would give him her wallet to avoid anyone being hurt.

Haley didn't kill someone actively sicking her up in a battle. She sought out someone with whom she had an ongoing violent quarrel and killed them while they were defenseless. Self-defense is limited to imminent danger, and in civilized countries Haley's act would be open and shut murder. In the US, it would be murder 1.

Celia's position has been, unvaryingly, to react to events as if they were occurring in a modern western civilization and act as though she were an upright citizen thereof. She's a voice to the author's commentary on some rather specific aspects the incongruity between modern morality and the "morality" acted upon in the game world.

[hamishspence]

Did Celia actually know about Haley's killing of Crystal? Its not clear from the comic if she did.

"open and shut murder cases" are frequently disputed as non-evil on OOTS forum- V's killing of Kubita in particular.

[Snails]

I don't this this has "redeemed Celia" in any way. What this strip DID confirm to me that is her relationship with Roy still feels stiff and awkward. I've never seen any real chemistry between the two, and throwing in some "they had sex!" doesn't make their relationship seem any more real.

Well said.

I never really had a problem with Celia -- her errors are not notably outrageous, considering the company we see her keeping on this strip.

But there is nothing really to root for. Roy finds Space Girl sexy. Space Girl finds Roy sexy. Anything else?

[Skorj]

Haley didn't kill someone actively sicking her up in a battle. She sought out someone with whom she had an ongoing violent quarrel and killed them while they were defenseless. Self-defense is limited to imminent danger, and in civilized countries Haley's act would be open and shut murder. In the US, it would be murder 1.

Perhaps in principle. In practice, I refer to the advice the police gave my mother, years ago, when she bought a gun: "If you shoot someone in your house, make sure to finish them off. If they live, they will sue you, you might lose everything, and you might face criminal charges. If they die, they don't have a chance to invent a story later, and as long a we're convinced he broke into your house, that will be the end of it. Also, don't shoot someone coming through the window, as they may fall outside and then it's complicated. Let them get all the way in, then shoot them." Moral questions aside, this was very practical advice on how the system in America actually works (or, at least, how it worked in Texas 20 years ago).

[Haven]

I never understood the Celia hate...

But I also really never understood the ridiculous amounts of Miko hate. Always thought there was at least a little misogyny in it, don't know if it's the same for Celia.

[73 Bits of Lint]

I figured she was hypocrite for not resorting to violence but letting Haley do it for her, and for rooting for Haley when she was killing people.
Now it makes more sense. She just don't understand the existance of Evil.
This explanation seems to be what the comic is going for, but it makes no sense. First of all, there is no evil in the elemental plane of air? None? At all? No belkers, no evil elementals? No traveling dragons? No mad wizards looking for somewhere to play with their spells outside the reach of casual adventurers? How very boring.
Second, Roy's reasoning ... well, I guess it was a lame attempt at social commentary. Or it was an unnecessary attempt to deconstruct the "adventuring lifestyle." Look, I'll tell you why D&D characters have no trouble killing each other and taking huge risks with their lives: the victims are fictional. You may as well wonder why people watch Tom & Jerry cartoons but would never torture their own cat to death.

[Code Black]

"open and shut murder cases" are frequently disputed as non-evil on OOTS forum- V's killing of Kubita in particular.

But portrayed as such through narrative in the comic itself. For example, narrative and story-wise, Kubota's death was, if not evil, a major sign that V was not well and incentive for Elan to take action.

Here, Celia's view is that of a complete and utter outsider, and I like the differing viewpoint. The idea that she has no true concept of evil is pretty understandable, even if it makes her incredibly naive and constantly in danger.

[King of Nowhere]

Haley didn't kill someone actively sicking her up in a battle. She sought out someone with whom she had an ongoing violent quarrel and killed them while they were defenseless. Self-defense is limited to imminent danger, and in civilized countries Haley's act would be open and shut murder. In the US, it would be murder 1.


I didn't count it because Celia don't know about it.
I have to add that I find it a perfectly acceptable action given that Crystal killed in cold blood for money more people than you can count, and I'm not alone on this idea, but I don't want to derail this thread on this topic, that has already been discussed to death.

Again it is to be noted that Celia's reading of Haley killing for a childish grudge is widely inaccurate, because Haley would have never killed Crystal if a) Crystal wasn't an evil bitch, and b) Crystal was probably going to be a treath to her life sooner or later.
Celia is missing the part that they're bad people, to the point that she asks for the dead thieves (thieves, murderers, and unrepentant guilty of many other crimes) to be resurrected.



This explanation seems to be what the comic is going for, but it makes no sense. First of all, there is no evil in the elemental plane of air? None? At all? No belkers, no evil elementals? No traveling dragons? No mad wizards looking for somewhere to play with their spells outside the reach of casual adventurers? How very boring.

I find it strange too, but apparently it is so. Or maybe Celia grew in a very sheltered place and was spared the worst place of her plane.
After all it is the same for many of us who live in rich countries and never directly saw the third world, or a war, or terrorism. I'm sure most of us would change some of their attitudes if they had to live constantly within this realities, instead of just seeing them on the media as something happening in remote places and not affecting them directly.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Also, aren't there evil air elementals that I'm sure would be willing to hurt others on their plane. I'll check the monster manuals later.
There are belkers, at least. And since the plane of air is about the easiest one to survive in, there should be a fair number of imported good/evil beings (dragons, wizards, random adventurers, etc). Vanilla elementals aren't only Usually Neutral, which just means there should be a fair number of good and evil ones rolling about.
I don't really understand how one of the places that only high-level adventurers can expect to visit and return alive from is supposed to count as a sheltered upbringing. The way Celia acts, you'd think she came from an aligned plane of some kind (which kind? Well the wussy kind, of course).

[blackspeeker]

Did Celia actually know about Haley's killing of Crystal? Its not clear from the comic if she did.


I'm pretty sure that's still a no, after killing her, Haley bluffs about her borrowing Crystal's knife, and then Crystal says it's great they're getting along now.

[Elder Wraith]

It could have been a good piece of comedy to have Celia talk with Miko about smiting evil...

I hope the giant's reading this, I want that to happen!

[Raging Gene Ray]

But there is nothing really to root for. Roy finds Space Girl sexy. Space Girl finds Roy sexy. Anything else?

So Celia is a Space Alien now? Is she a Robot-Ninja-Clown too?

[Kalbron]

Nah. Pacifist-Arrogant Fool-Clown. :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Take one part moron. Add one part Crazy Foreigner. Stir. Thats why I at least hate Celia.

Gosh, that is really a good reason to love her.
This is a comedy. We want characters who act foolishly, grossly so. Celia definitely improves the story.



Celia's position has been, unvaryingly, to react to events as if they were occurring in a modern western civilization and act as though she were an upright citizen thereof. She's a voice to the author's commentary on some rather specific aspects the incongruity between modern morality and the "morality" acted upon in the game world.
One problem with this theory is that Celia is shown as the fool out of touch with reality. She is thus "critizing" the ideas she represents, and so you would have our author proclaiming D&D ethics are superior to modern ethics.



I never understood the Celia hate...

But I also really never understood the ridiculous amounts of Miko hate. Always thought there was at least a little misogyny in it, don't know if it's the same for Celia.
My theory has been that we have a lot of Roy rooters here. A clear foe like Xykon, they can understand and enjoy. But good characters who are not team players pulling their weight... These are heretics and to be scorned.

[Nimrod's Son]

It does explain her pacifism and the apparent inconsistency of her having cheered Haley on at times, but Celia is not primarily hated for her pacifism. She is hated for the fact that she knows and admits that she doesn't know what's going on and then still proceeds to act as if she does know what's going on.

Besides, she's rather self-righteous. Giving away someone else's money without asking them specifically to make them pay for what is a transgression against YOUR views is just bad taste.

That said, I always found Celia more amusing (especially in the way she exasperated Haley) than annoying. I don't hate her. But I think the above is part of why some people do.
Kaytara, I salute your sanity.


What this strip DID confirm to me that is her relationship with Roy still feels stiff and awkward. I've never seen any real chemistry between the two, and throwing in some "they had sex!" doesn't make their relationship seem any more real.
I don't in any way see that as a bad thing. Fairytale romance is clichéd and dull. People in a brand new relationship being awkward around each other - and let's not forget that Roy and Celia have spent, what, three days or so in total in each other's company - is real.


Since I've never understood the hate Celia got on the boards, my feelings on her remain unchanged.
I have no feelings on viewing her. She is largely irrelevant. :smallamused:


Celia's position has been, unvaryingly, to react to events as if they were occurring in a modern western civilization and act as though she were an upright citizen thereof. She's a voice to the author's commentary on some rather specific aspects the incongruity between modern morality and the "morality" acted upon in the game world.
It would be remiss of me to suggest that the bulk of those who actively hate Celia prefer D&D to real life, so I shall refrain from doing so. :smallwink:


Look, I'll tell you why D&D characters have no trouble killing each other and taking huge risks with their lives: the victims are fictional. You may as well wonder why people watch Tom & Jerry cartoons but would never torture their own cat to death.
Gee, why didn't you say so sooner? Rich could have wrapped everything up in strip #13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html) if he'd just stuck a speech bubble for Roy in the last panel saying, "Let's not bother, eh guys? We're all fictional after all".


I hope the giant's reading this, I want that to happen!
He's not taking requests.

[spargel]

Gee, why didn't you say so sooner? Rich could have wrapped everything up in strip #13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html) if he'd just stuck a speech bubble for Roy in the last panel saying, "Let's not bother, eh guys? We're all fictional after all".


The real reason D&D characters kill each other: For our entertainment.

[73 Bits of Lint]

The real reason D&D characters kill each other: For our entertainment.
Exactly. The characters should bother, because their bothering is amusing and if they all die horribly in the pursuit of other people's entertainment, well, nothing is lost but the ink. So of course Haley is going to be brutally calloused toward the suffering of her enemies, said enemies were only created so that she could give us the benefit of seeing her murderize them.
Trying to build a realistic rationale for the adventuring lifestyle makes no sense, because adventuring makes no sense in a world not specifically built for PCs.

[Morquard]

Well personally I never hated Celia, so I see no need for her to be redeemed.

She was sometimes slightly annoying, but most reasons brought forward for what she's been doing that would warrent this immense hatred towards her, I could never understand.

As for "Are there no evil people in the Plane of Air" argument:
Sure there are I guess. There are evil people on earth too, and wars and all. Still I don't go around and kill everyone who looks at me funny for the off-chance he's some serial killer who will follow me home and sneak in my bedroom to slaughter me horribly. Or because he looked funny at me.
Why is it so hard to believe that there may be some evil elements on her home plane but she still doesn't consider killing people to be the right thing?


I suppose Celia, meeting a robber, would give him her wallet to avoid anyone being hurt.
And thats bad exactly why? Yeah, if I'd get robbed I'd most likely give them my wallet so noone gets hurt, too.
Now go ahead everyone and hate me...

[japandy42]

I never figured out why people thought Celia was annoying in the first place. She wants to prevent death, period. Why is that naive or annoying? The fact that she has principles that don't fit with Haley's or Belkar's don't make them wrong; in fact, they SHOULD make them look pretty damn good. I mean, I understand Haley killing the Guild in self-defense, but Celia wanting to rez them is a totally reasonable thing. We don't condone mass killings where I'm from, even of evil people. And I think it's a pretty damn reasonable principle that she wants to use Haley's money to raise people... money is pretty low on her priorities compared to life. Even if she knew about Haley's dad, she would have done exactly the same thing and would have been right to do it too.

Nothing wrong with Celia, except that she isn't terribly streetwise. But I think her principles are admirable and I think people get annoyed because they don't like her attitude about Haley who, by the way, is only a marginally moral being. I mean, c'mon, she killed Crystal, and if you think that was supposed to be a good act in the strip, then you're crazy. It's one of those things that will come back to kick her in the ass.

[Eloel]

And thats bad exactly why? Yeah, if I'd get robbed I'd most likely give them my wallet so noone gets hurt, too.
Now go ahead everyone and hate me...

Even if you had, say, a stun-gun or pepper-spray with you? I don't think I would...

[Kaytara]

I never figured out why people thought Celia was annoying in the first place. She wants to prevent death, period. Why is that naive or annoying? The fact that she has principles that don't fit with Haley's or Belkar's don't make them wrong; in fact, they SHOULD make them look pretty damn good. I mean, I understand Haley killing the Guild in self-defense, but Celia wanting to rez them is a totally reasonable thing. We don't condone mass killings where I'm from, even of evil people. And I think it's a pretty damn reasonable principle that she wants to use Haley's money to raise people... money is pretty low on her priorities compared to life. Even if she knew about Haley's dad, she would have done exactly the same thing and would have been right to do it too.


Wanting to raise the thieves MAY be a fairly reasonable if you can't quite grasp how evil and mean they are (for that matter, not all of those killed during the battle could have been that bad. I mean, Haley and her parents were members, and they're supposedly Good-ish...), but Celia still completely went over Haley's head on that one, judging her own, eh, judgement to be superior to Haley's. That sort of thing is highly outrageous due to the sheer principle of it, even if it has GOOD results - and here the results are very questionable!

Case in point: My best friend complained to me that her mother had changed everything in her room to move in a huge new table while she was away. She admitted to me that she liked her room better that way, but she had still made a huge scene about the sheer principle of the thing, and I understand her completely. People who go over our heads with their judgement for no good reason essentially make us feel like slaves, or furniture and thus elicit a very strong response.

It's not the only time Celia has done that, either. Her sneaking away from Haley to the city Haley had explicitly warned her about is another such example of ignoring Haley's judgement because following her own was more convenient.

I actually like it that Celia has this trait, it makes her more interesting than just the "nice sylph" some of the characters view her as. I'm also certain the Giant is not only aware of it but planned it as well. When Celia was summoned, she quickly started ordering Haley about and making decisions for her and when Haley complained that she was annoying, she cracked a joke about proving Haley wrong. And come to think of it, even her very first appearance in the dungeon showed signs of it when she angrily berated the adventurers for bickering and ignoring her. For a character that has been introduced (I'm assuming) without great plans for her at that point, Rich has certainly done a remarkable job of giving her consistent characterisation, in my opinion at least.
Ohmigods! An essay-length post! And it's not about Vaarsuvius! Who'd have thought that? XD

[Lord Seth]

I never figured out why people thought Celia was annoying in the first place. She wants to prevent death, period. Why is that naive or annoying? The fact that she has principles that don't fit with Haley's or Belkar's don't make them wrong; in fact, they SHOULD make them look pretty damn good. I mean, I understand Haley killing the Guild in self-defense, but Celia wanting to rez them is a totally reasonable thing. We don't condone mass killings where I'm from, even of evil people.I assume, of course, that this means that you were deeply offended by the entirety of the Azure City Siege arc, and felt that they should have made efforts to ensure the resurrection of the Goblins/Hobgoblins? In fact, you should have been horrified by the earliest strips, when they slaughter their way through Goblins. And surely they should have made sure not to kill the Ninjas when they were attacking, and should have given them resurrections. And those are just the examples that come to mind immediately.

[Haven]

I suppose Celia, meeting a robber, would give him her wallet to avoid anyone being hurt.

It's been said, but yeah, that's not necessarily a bad idea. I think that's what's made Celia an interesting character all these strips, actually: she's someone who uses sensibilities that actually apply in the real world, transported to the bizarre logic that is an adventurer's life.


My theory has been that we have a lot of Roy rooters here. A clear foe like Xykon, they can understand and enjoy. But good characters who are not team players pulling their weight... These are heretics and to be scorned.

I dunno, I never saw a lot of hate directed at pre-level-in-badass Elan.

[Zordrath]

The only way Celia has 'redeemed' herself is by admitting herself that she needs to go away :smalltongue:

[Murdim]

The fact that she has principles that don't fit with Haley's or Belkar's don't make them wrong; in fact, they SHOULD make them look pretty damn good. I mean, I understand Haley killing the Guild in self-defense, but Celia wanting to rez them is a totally reasonable thing. We don't condone mass killings where I'm from, even of evil people. And I think it's a pretty damn reasonable principle that she wants to use Haley's money to raise people... money is pretty low on her priorities compared to life.Sure, making you pay for the resurrection of people who died trying to kill you is a perfectly sensible, ethical and just decision, and Haley is an amoral bitch for refusing this. Because "money is worthless compared to life" means that we should stay passive when someone uses violence and threats to take whatever he wants. Isn't that pretty much the definition of Stupid Good ? And I'm not talking about Celia here, but about YOU.

For that matter, I don't think our societies "don't condone" the "mass killing" of people who are explicitly trying to murder you. Even though there's probably some guys among them who are misguided rather than evil. But it doesn't matter much since laws aren't morals, and that their distinction is the basis of the alignment chart, and that Haley is Chaotic, and that she was in a lawless place where the closest thing to a lawful authority is the evil antagonistic Thieves' Guild, and...

Yes, the adventuring lifestyle have its absurdities, but most of the moral dissonance most people perceive is due to THEIR total lack of understanding of any moral situation beyond their comfortable, secure, lawful western haven where you almost never have to defend your life and possessions yourself.


I mean, c'mon, she killed Crystal, and if you think that was supposed to be a good act in the strip, then you're crazy.No, it's those who think that killing Crystal was an evil act who are crazy. Because I say so.

[Morquard]

Even if you had, say, a stun-gun or pepper-spray with you? I don't think I would...
Even if he had say a gun pointed at you, or two friends with him? Good luck with that then.

[Murdim]

Even if he had say a gun pointed at you, or two friends with him? Good luck with that then.In this case, you give him/them your possessions because it's the most sensible thing to do. Morals have nothing to do with this. Your message is basically irrelevant to the current discussion.

[Kaytara]

Sure, making you pay for the resurrection of people who died trying to kill you is a perfectly sensible, ethical and just decision, and Haley is an amoral bitch for refusing this. Because "money is worthless compared to life" means that we should stay passive when someone uses violence and threats to take whatever he wants. Isn't that pretty much the definition of Stupid Good ? And I'm not talking about Celia here, but about YOU.

Whoa, overreacted much? Take a chill pill. You know, in real life the death penalty is not universal, there's nothing Stupid Good about not condoning mass killings even of horrible criminals. (Although the idea may not be fully relevant since we're not talking about whether or not to kill them, but whether or not to resurrect them after they already got killed.)


No, it's those who think that killing Crystal was an evil act who are crazy. Because I say so.
Someone had two scoops of self-esteem in their raisin bran this morning... :smalltongue:

[RedCloakLives!]

Celia is one of the most effective characters in the comic. Though burdened with extreme handicaps, she accomplishes her goals. Unlike most of the other characters.

Beware of lawyers. They're one of the most dangerous classes out there! We fully expect Celia to gain prestige levels in Supreme Court Justice in the future.

---

Red Cloak! Freedom! People should not be judged by the color of their skin, or the size of their underbites!

[Murdim]

Whoa, overreacted much? Take a chill pill. You know, in real life the death penalty is not universal, there's nothing Stupid Good about not condoning mass killings even of horrible criminals. (Although the idea may not be fully relevant since we're not talking about whether or not to kill them, but whether or not to resurrect them after they already got killed.)I honestly don't see where I could be overreacting in the paragraph you quoted :smallconfused: I admit that the first sentence of the following paragraph could be a bit exaggerated, but here, I'm just saying that a moral system where the respect of life is taken to such a point that there is no acceptable response to the use of violence is a very, very dysfuctional moral system where might (and the will to use it against others) effectively makes right. And not that it really matters, but I'm firmly against the death penalty, and don't support vigilantism either.


Someone had two scoops of self-esteem in their raisin bran this morning... :smalltongue:I wanted to abort this beginning of "Yet Another Crystal's Murder Argument" the same way it began. With a pointless contemptuous statement

[Kaytara]

I honestly don't see where I could be overreacting in the paragraph you quoted :smallconfused: I admit that the first sentence of the following paragraph could be a bit exaggerated, but here, I'm just saying that a moral system where the respect of life is taken to such a point that there is no acceptable response to the use of violence is a very, very dysfuctional moral system where might (and the will to use it against others) effectively makes right. For that matters, I'm firmly against the death penalty, and don't support vigilantism either.

I was referring more to the "Lawful Stupid - and I'm talking about YOU" part....


I wanted to abort this beginning of "Yet Another Crystal's Murder Argument" the same way it began. With a pointless contemptuous statement
Yeah, I hope it works. Since Celia doesn't know that Haley went ahead and killed Crystal, anyway, it's not relevant to the thread, either....

[Turkish Delight]

We don't condone mass killings where I'm from, even of evil people. And I think it's a pretty damn reasonable principle that she wants to use Haley's money to raise people... money is pretty low on her priorities compared to life.

Honestly, I think it is impossible to do a fair comparison between our world and the OotS world. I'm guessing the world we live in would be a wildly different place if everyone knew, as a fact as indisputable as the existence of Australia, that there were a variety of outer planes representing various alignments where you will end up after you die....and people who do good will enjoy various forms of paradise while people who do bad will probably be tortured horribly forever by demons/daemons/devils. It would change the whole dynamic of society completely, including what value is placed on life.

In this case, I would think the real problem wouldn't be killing, exactly. Killing someone when you know they've got the equivalent of the puffy cloud heaven afterlife to go to doesn't seem a terrible evil so much as extremely rude, like kicking someone off a carnival ride before they're through with it. As such, the problem isn't the killing of the thieves guild, but killing them while they're still completely evil and therefore sending them straight to Hell without a shot of changing their lives and going to the puffy cloud heaven.

In bringing them back, they've got another shot at redemption....not that most of them are likely to take it. If Roy can at least remember feeling blissful and contented after coming back, I wonder if any of the evil thieves can remember burning and agony after they returned? I would think that at least would make someone pause for a bit of self-reflection.

[Tenebrais]

Trying to build a realistic rationale for the adventuring lifestyle makes no sense, because adventuring makes no sense in a world not specifically built for PCs.

Except OotS has come a long way from a basic D&D parody. There's an overarching plot and setting. It's more about the story than the game, and a good story needs justification regarding why things are different to how we know them.

[pflare]

I always liked Celia. She was funny in the Dungeon and at the trial. I was happy when she started dating Roy. I'll admit that when she showed up this time I thought she was mildly annoying at first but then I realized it was because she was the voice of reason and normalcy. In a world where people are ressurected and killed all the time she is the voice of non-violence and peace. While she can be kind of a know it all but she's an academic so its expected. Overall I like Celia and I like what she brings to the comic.

[whitelaughter]

And thats bad exactly why? Yeah, if I'd get robbed I'd most likely give them my wallet so noone gets hurt, too.
Now go ahead everyone and hate me...

Has everybody crossed the concept of the throw away wallet? Grab an old wallet, put in old reciepts, expired credit cards, some coins - and you have a perfect option for dealing with a mugger. You give them the wallet, so:
1) you don't get hurt
2) you don't lose your real wallet
3) if the thief tries to use the credit cards, they've already been cancelled, so there's a chance of the thief being caught: and being caught trying to cheat a financial institution means that their battalions of lawyers will deal with him, rather than you having to suffer through a long drawn out court case.

Yeah, it's off topic, but if it saves someone from a real world mugging, woot!

[Optimystik]

"Hate" is a strong word. I think most people simply expressed "annoyance". Large difference.

My "annoyance" became "hate" when she bargained Haley's money away to save people that we're trying to kill them.

The bone golem thing I'm not as upset about anymore, since it was resolved so quickly. ("CRUNCH!") But I'm still very happy to see the back of her.

[Worira]

Take one part moron. Add one part Crazy Foreigner. Stir. Thats why I at least hate Celia.

She's 'dating' a human, and knows nothing about them. Didn't even bother making her DC 10 Know(Nature) check to know that humans can't fire lightning out of their appendages.

Actually, (Local) covers humanoids, not (Nature).

[Optimystik]

Actually, (Local) covers humanoids, not (Nature).

A Heal check could conceivably cover bodily functions also. :smallwink:

[Aldrakan]

Their relationship works for me a lot better now, I was pretty indifferent before. But thinking about it, I can't remember Roy ever taking pleasure in being an adventurer. All the others seem to enjoy the experience, even Durkon (though not very often), while Roy just seems to treat it as his responsibility. Even when he's fighting Xykon he's doing it because he'll take over the world if he's not stopped.
He doesn't seem to have the sort of instinctual acceptance of adventuring methods that most of them have, but he has to deal with it anyway because that's the world he was born in. They have a similar basic outlook, Roy's has simply been tempered by living in this world.
In short, Celia lives in the world Roy wishes he lived in.

I do wonder why Roy has such a different attitude though, given that he comes from a line of adventurers (Eugene kind of counts right) and was raised on tales of his grandfather's adventures.

[Optimystik]

In short, Celia lives in the world Roy wishes he lived in.

What? I'm pretty sure Roy enjoys knowing that he has an afterlife waiting for him. He also enjoys being able to be revived. It gives him something to fight for, and a reason to go all out - his "metaphysical safety net." He doesn't want Celia's life.

[Aldrakan]

What? I'm pretty sure Roy enjoys knowing that he has an afterlife waiting for him. He also enjoys being able to be revived. It gives him something to fight for, and a reason to go all out - his "metaphysical safety net." He doesn't want Celia's life.

Lives in, not dies in.
I don't think the adventurer's life appeals to him all that much, he seems to object to a lot of its aspects, most notably the convenience killing. He seems to like the sound of the peaceful world Celia describes more than his own.

[Droodle]

Self-defense is limited to imminent danger, and in civilized countries Haley's act would be open and shut murder. In the US, it would be murder 1.Sure, but it would have been the kind of murder no one would have really cared to investigate. No one cries when a high ranking member of the mob gets killed. Vigilantism is illegal -- and should be -- but it isn't evil in D&D. That Haley enjoyed killing her evil sociopathic nemesis doesn't make the act evil. It doesn't even preclude it from being a good act.

[Optimystik]

Lives in, not dies in.
I don't think the adventurer's life appeals to him all that much, he seems to object to a lot of its aspects, most notably the convenience killing. He seems to like the sound of the peaceful world Celia describes more than his own.

But unlike Celia, he understands the importance of fighting to protect such peace with all of one's might. We're talking about the guy who went to Fighter College of his own volition long before he thought the world might need his combat skills, remember?

"Si vis pacem, para bellum - If you would have peace, prepare for war."

[Aldrakan]

But unlike Celia, he understands the importance of fighting to protect such peace with all of one's might. We're talking about the guy who went to Fighter College of his own volition long before he thought the world might need his combat skills, remember?

"Si vis pacem, para bellum - If you would have peace, prepare for war."

Yes I'm not saying that Roy wants to be like Celia. I'm suggesting that he wishes his world were more like hers, where doing things like becoming an expert fighter to stop liches from conquering the world is apparently not necessary.
He's attracted to her viewpoint because she sees the world how he'd like it to be. And it's not a stupid viewpoint for her because, barring her forays into the material plane, it is how her world works.

[Ancalagon]

My "annoyance" became "hate" when she bargained Haley's money away to save people that we're trying to kill them.

Luckily, Haley quickly solved that in the only sane way: "Such a contract is void - and oh, **** you people!"

Anyway, I still think that the "Celia-plot" was a bit annoying as it went on - but will be great and fitting afterwards. As the Miko-plot, I also found Miko very annoying in the end, but when the entire thing is "there", it's a great thing.
Celia has her (well-written!) place in the story - but it's also good it seems over for now.

[Kaytara]

Incidentally, here is one line that I'm surprised none of the Celia criticisers (that I've seen) have picked up on.

Roy: "Haley does what she needs to do in order to keep the mission going."
Celia: :smallannoyed: "No, she doesn't. She does what's convenient for her, and if it happens to help the mission, hey, bonus."

I can't quite wrap my mind around this one. I can get that Celia doesn't think much of Haley apparently valuing money over lives. But where did this come from? The mission? I'm guessing it was "convenient" for Haley to stay in a hobgoblin-overrun city for months, spending all her gold to power the efforts to reclaim it. Or pull around Roy's body all around, trying to find someone to resurrect him. Apparently much more convenient for her than just skipping town and joining some other adventuring group to find loot.

Meh, Celia really let her views get in the way there... It seems that she sees value of life so important, that if someone appears to disregard life then she denies any positive sides they may have, as well. :smallfrown:

[Tenebrais]

I think she still doesn't see Haley's reluctance to go to Greysky City as anything more than an attempt to avoid the Thieves' Guild.

[Ancalagon]

Roy: "Haley does what she needs to do in order to keep the mission going."
Celia: :smallannoyed: "No, she doesn't. She does what's convenient for her, and if it happens to help the mission, hey, bonus."

Yeah, I also stumbled over it and found it highly unfair. Celia might have some issues understanding the culture of the prime material plane, but she should have reliased that Haley is a greedy thief, but that SHE also is good and tried to make the best.

But as she was already leaving, I found it pointless to bring that on the table.

[David Argall]

Sure, but it would have been the kind of murder no one would have really cared to investigate. No one cries when a high ranking member of the mob gets killed.
Actually the mob was always big on funerals, at least until the cops started showing up with cameras. But the death of a high ranking member of any organization makes the other high ranking members nervous. And they are going to want something done about it [unless they had approved of the hit] and they have the power to make sure something is done. So Crystal's death should have launched a big fuss. Haley may well escape that fuss by being on another continent, but if we were to take another look at Greysky, we should see that fuss.



That Haley enjoyed killing her evil sociopathic nemesis doesn't make the act evil. It doesn't even preclude it from being a good act.
Any killing is by default evil. It is up to the killer to show that it was a necessary evil. So far nobody has shown that this was other than a hate/robbery crime, and any benefits to good purely incidental.

[Gwynfrid]

Gosh, that is really a good reason to love her.
This is a comedy. We want characters who act foolishly, grossly so. Celia definitely improves the story.


Fully agree. Actually, every single named character in this comic (and many not named characters) improves the story and provides humor in his/her own unique way. That includes, of course, those characters that people love to hate - Miko is a case in point.

Actually, Celia has this resemblance to Miko: Both show how inconvenient it can be to have highly principled, LG characters around. Such characters are difficult because their view easily passes as self-righteous, even in their friends' eyes, and because it is usually impractical and therefore scorned by characters with more loose morals. The worst is when they put their money where their mouth is, ie. take action, thwarting the team's "practical" and "efficient" path. Celia does it in a less severe way than Miko did, naturally, as she is both less powerful and less paranoid. But, by means less violent, she has been railroading the OOTS on several occasions. I find it interesting that Rich shows us several variants of characters on the Good Team who are nevertheless being more trouble than help. There is a degree of depth in this which you'll never find in a basic "us vs. them" story.

[The Extinguisher]

I think she still doesn't see Haley's reluctance to go to Greysky City as anything more than an attempt to avoid the Thieves' Guild.

Um, isn't that all it was?

[spargel]

Any killing is by default evil.


I don't think the D&D/OOTS alignment system agrees with you there.

[KBF]

I don't think the D&D/OOTS alignment system agrees with you there.

...Thus, Celia's character.

Take note.

[Murdim]

...Thus, Celia's character.

Take note.To be fair, David Argall is widely known for not accepting this fact, and I don't think that by "evil", he meant "evil for Celia". That would explain for me spargel's overreaction.

EDIT : Like I said :smallsigh: Please do not make yet another topic drift to a pointless argument with him, about it. IT'S A TRAP !


But, by means less violent, she has been railroading the OOTS on several occasions.The problem is that Celia's main railroading moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) has nothing to do with her "high moral principles" and everything with narrow-mindedness, contempt and stupidity.

As a whole, since her last calling, Celia has swung between reasonable but strict pacifism coupled with an understandably warped view of Haley and insufferable self-righteous ditziness. 669 explains the former, but not the latter.

[David Argall]

I don't think the D&D/OOTS alignment system agrees with you there.

Oh it agrees greatly. It's just that the typical player deals with the exceptions. We might question the eagerness he hunts down those exceptions, but properly, the PC faces cases where it may be unfortunate to kill someone, but the alternative actions are worse. The PC faces somebody attacking him and must defend himself. He must stop the evil ceremony that will summon some nasty devil that will kill many.... In these situations, killing those trying to do the evil is simply the least evil action available. It would be the moral duty of the PC to save the attackers when possible, a duty often neglected, but possible here means practical, not theoretical. The PC is not confined to non-lethal tactics when that endangers the mission.

[Ancalagon]

It would be the moral duty of the PC to save the attackers when possible, a duty often neglected, but possible here means practical, not theoretical. The PC is not confined to non-lethal tactics when that endangers the mission.

Here we see again from what source we come - a roleplaying *game*. How often is the plot "we took some random mooks prisoner because we are good" interesting? Once? Twice? Everytime?
Taking people prisoner is interesting to play only when you have "prisoners that are worth it" and even then players want to see more plot, go on in the story and to not have to carry people around, people, who tie their "free adventuring" and that will be trouble if you leave them unattended.
Thus, most DMs tend to play that plot once or twice, then it happens once or twice that a "good" character takes random survivors from the "evil duke attacking team" prisoner... and then that kind of plot is simply through, it's not interesting anymore and it gets boring (imagine a rpg group where you rescue a princess from another tower each week).

I solve it in the way that "random mooks" simply don't survive the initial fight when players storm the ritual ring/throne room/alchemist's lab. Yes, that's crude and possibly cheating and some characters "would" take prisoners (if some attackers survived due to the "rules") but we have to keep those one-time-NSCs, alignment system and ingame morals aside, out of the way of the "real" plot that is to be played this evening.
Even if you have a "free" play that's more driven by character play and how the players interact with the world and not so much "dungeon crawling", the twist with "we have taken prisoners AGAIN" isn't interesting more than one or two times.

You cannot consider "morals and cliche of the typical adventurer" without taking a look where that cliche comes from - and here's a massive difference between a story that someone tells based on that cliche/game and the game itself.

[Qubanz]

Well... Celia has a point sure, interesting point to entire the last comic too.

But I still hate Celia for her utter inability to listen to more experienced persons in dangerous situations. (Stuff like her trooping off on her own to Greysky city.) And the fact that she's more concerned with her own ideals then anything else in situations where it amounts to the point of being virtually traitorous.

It may be consistent with her philosophy, but her philosophy painfully didn't work whilst traveling with Haley and she was utterly unable to see that and acting like an annoying load, whilst being all self-righteous about it too.

Justification or not, Celia was obnoxious, and I'm glad to see her leave. (And hope the comic won't see her return for a long time.)

In fact I even still find it that hard to believe that anyone REALLY likes Celia THAT much. (Sure I'll believe that they might think she brings up an interesting point in the last comic (as of writing.) But that alone I think barely makes her more likeable and doesn't excuse some of her worst previous behaviour.)

[hamishspence]

It would be the moral duty of the PC to save the attackers when possible, a duty often neglected.

"Moral duty" to save evil people from the consequence of their evil actions?

I think its closer to "protect innocents from the consequences of evil people's evil actions, and secondarily (in the case of LG) uphold the law, which is to say, bring the evil people before its judgement, rather than mete it out personally.

[#Raptor]

Incidentally, here is one line that I'm surprised none of the Celia criticisers (that I've seen) have picked up on.

Roy: "Haley does what she needs to do in order to keep the mission going."
Celia: :smallannoyed: "No, she doesn't. She does what's convenient for her, and if it happens to help the mission, hey, bonus."

I can't quite wrap my mind around this one. I can get that Celia doesn't think much of Haley apparently valuing money over lives. But where did this come from? The mission? I'm guessing it was "convenient" for Haley to stay in a hobgoblin-overrun city for months, spending all her gold to power the efforts to reclaim it. Or pull around Roy's body all around, trying to find someone to resurrect him. Apparently much more convenient for her than just skipping town and joining some other adventuring group to find loot.

Meh, Celia really let her views get in the way there... It seems that she sees value of life so important, that if someone appears to disregard life then she denies any positive sides they may have, as well. :smallfrown:
Yeah... that one really made me go "WTF Celia?!?".
Up to that point she was just a bit self-righteous and naive to me, but her judgement of Haley... seriously now. How many times exactly did Haley save her airy ***? :smallfurious:

And whats Roys answer to this?
Celia: "I'm sorry, I just can fanthom caring more about gold than about a other persons very existence."
Roy: "Neither can I, but we don't need to see eye to eye on it in order to work with her."

Fffffffff...... makes it sound like his reasons for working together with Haley are similar to those for working together with Belkar. I'm fairly sure Roy doesn't actually see it that way, but it sure sounds like it. Maybe he just said it to get Celia to stop bugging him about it, but still.... that one really sits badly with me.
Would have been a good point of time for Roy to actually defend Haley there instead of just somehow justifying working together with her.

All in all, really good time for Celia to get out of the comic.

[Kaytara]

Maybe he just said it to get Celia to stop bugging him about it, but still.... that one really sits badly with me.
Would have been a good point of time for Roy to actually defend Haley there instead of just somehow justifying working together with her.

All in all, really good time for Celia to get out of the comic.

I think he disagrees with that part but let it slide because he didn't want to start an argument while they were all sweetie-sweet holding hands and all.. So yeah, this reflects badly either on Roy or on his relationship with Celia. :/

[Ancalagon]

But I still hate Celia for her utter inability to listen to more experienced persons in dangerous situations.

That's basically what bugged me about her: She sees that she is unable to understand what is going on in this different culture, she sees she is unable to react "appropiatly"... but still goes on with whatever she thinks is right, even when she sees that's not really what will help her.

That is what made her so annoying. It was not the "different view on things" or "a stranger in an unknown country", but that she KNEW she was a stranger and still knew better.

She did not listen to Haley (who was the only person around) because she did not trust Haley, even when she should have. I agree that "trusting Haley" is asked a lot of her, since she sees Haley is by no way someone she can understand or relate to, so far so good, but she also should have seen that not-trusting Haley would have been catastrophic - as the events proofed. It's pure luck Celia did not get all of them killed in Greysky City.

So, I found Celia annoying not because she was acting as she did - but because she acted as she did even when she really should have known that "she had no clue what was going on" and that she "should have trusted Haley, even when Haley was someone she would normally not have trusted", the "normally" is the important word, here.

[Callos_DeTerran]

That's basically what bugged me about her: She sees that she is unable to understand what is going on in this different culture, she sees she is unable to react "appropiatly"... but still goes on with whatever she thinks is right, even when she sees that's not really what will help her.

That is what made her so annoying. It was not the "different view on things" or "a stranger in an unknown country", but that she KNEW she was a stranger and still knew better.

She did not listen to Haley (who was the only person around) because she did not trust Haley, even when she should have. I agree that "trusting Haley" is asked a lot of her, since she sees Haley is by no way someone she can understand or relate to, so far so good, but she also should have seen that not-trusting Haley would have been catastrophic - as the events proofed. It's pure luck Celia did not get all of them killed in Greysky City.

So, I found Celia annoying not because she was acting as she did - but because she acted as she did even when she really should have known that "she had no clue what was going on" and that she "should have trusted Haley, even when Haley was someone she would normally not have trusted", the "normally" is the important word, here.

Why should she have trusted Haley? This part brings questions to my mind that I haven't seen an acceptable answer to yet. Haley was an almost complete stranger met only two times. In the Dungeon where Celia showed them all a secret-passage and thus proved herself useful to all of them and in the court-case where the only one she was shown talking extensively to was Roy and she was defending them for endangering the fabric of the universe without knowing if they had or hadn't until after the trial.

Then, the next time she's seen, she's just supposed to trust Haley...."because"...why? Ceilia was the one who convinced Haley to quit hanging around in Azure City. Ceilia is the one who brought together the peace council that lead to the reconciliation between the rebel groups (though Haley tried, I give her that). From all Ceilia has seen of Haley, the Sylph has baled the OotS the first time and the second time was rigged in their favor. The third she got Haley's butt in gear once more. Haley HADN'T proved herself more experienced in the least to Ceilia cause remember, Ceilia can't just KNOW what level Haley is or how much Haley has been adventuring.

And when they are bypassing a completely safe (To Ceilia's eyes) city that Haley is avoiding without telling her why...you honestly expected Ceilia to just go with it? Especially since she believed she'd be able to raise Roy right then and there WITHOUT a problem? Yeah, that sounds believable right there because she's just supposed to KNOW about Haley has reason to avoid when Haley refuses to discuss it with her.

C'mon..You can't blame the sylph for doing what she thought is right, even if you believe it only delayed the plot. Hell, in Ceilia's place I would have done the exact same thing with probably less attempts to discover WHY Greysky city was bad.

EDIT: As for Roy's 'we don't have to see eye to eye with her to work with her', it doesn't need to be taken nearly as bad as some people apparently are. Roy's simply voicing he doesn't need to agree with Haley's methods or viewpoints to work with her, not that he doesn't or disagrees with them. They are simply different. Can you imagine what would have happened if Roy had been the one stuck in Azure City instead of Haley? It would have been done very differently because Roy DOES have a different way of looking at things.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Nope. None of Roy's explanations really work for me. Considering the obvious joke comparing their fictional world with ours, it doesn't seem likely that we can attribute all of Celia's personality to being from some other plane of existence.

She always was an edgy kind of person and is used to being combative with her mother. She's also been a bit bitter with her lack of job success and she had at least one bad boyfriend. This makes her like to argue. In turn, this makes her a good lawyer.

And she carries her combative willfulness over into adventuring. Simple as that. Apparently, Roy likes 'em feisty.

[Ancalagon]

Why should she have trusted Haley?

I said she normally had no reason, Haley is actually someone untrustworthy.

But they were alone. Celia knew she had no clue on the area and the people. Haley was the only native around. No matter what Celia thought, she really had no other option - especially that she had no reason (trust or no trust) to believe that Haley had anything else in mind than getting Roy back.
She might not like Haley, she might not trust her, but in this regard, she had no reason to believe Haley (the native!) had nothing but "the best solution in mind" (getting Roy back as fast as possible). Celias leaving to Greysky City without asking/argueing about it was the dumbest thing she could have done - and she did it.

[Tenebrais]

Why should she have trusted Haley? This part brings questions to my mind that I haven't seen an acceptable answer to yet. [...]

Thank you for mentioning this. I was beginning to wonder than nobody else saw that.

Celia's view of Haley is fairly justified given what Celia has seen of her. Remember that despite the danger, Greysky City proved to be a success, and going down there cut down on the time it took to resurrect Roy as well as (apparently) resolved the issues between the Guild and Haley, even if Haley undid that last bit later. Haley's outrage at her money being used to resurrect the people she'd killed further justified the idea that she values money more than life. Yes, the people being resurrected were her enemies, but as far as Celia could see, the only real difference between them and Haley is one of combat strength and the fact that Haley's a PC.

[spargel]

Oh it agrees greatly.

Didn't the gods make goblins just for adventurers to kill?

[Gwynfrid]

The problem is that Celia's main railroading moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) has nothing to do with her "high moral principles" and everything with narrow-mindedness, contempt and stupidity.


C'mon, she explained her actions in-panel, and her rationale was not unreasonable. That was an action from someone who had never attended Adventuring 101, that's all. Haley herself wasn't all that pissed off about that little stunt.

Anyway, am I the only one who thinks this entire discussion is way too serious ? Sure Celia did some really stupid, ignorant things. That's what OOTS is about : stick figures fooling around for our entertainment. If this comic had awards for Abysmally Stupid Decisions Leading to Painful (but Hilarious) Consequences, I'm fairly sure Celia wouldn't even make the top ten.

[Ancalagon]

Celia's view of Haley is fairly justified given what Celia has seen of her

Yes, but also given the situation, it was stupid not to trust her on where to go. And that it had a "good ending" does not change the fact it was stupid and... wrong.

[Kaytara]

Yes, but also given the situation, it was stupid not to trust her on where to go. And that it had a "good ending" does not change the fact it was stupid and... wrong.

For that matter... Any ending that involves you being impaled on a huge sword (and your hair being cut) can hardly be called a good ending. :P


And when they are bypassing a completely safe (To Ceilia's eyes) city that Haley is avoiding without telling her why...you honestly expected Ceilia to just go with it? Especially since she believed she'd be able to raise Roy right then and there WITHOUT a problem? Yeah, that sounds believable right there because she's just supposed to KNOW about Haley has reason to avoid when Haley refuses to discuss it with her.

C'mon..You can't blame the sylph for doing what she thought is right, even if you believe it only delayed the plot. Hell, in Ceilia's place I would have done the exact same thing with probably less attempts to discover WHY Greysky city was bad.

I mostly agreed with your points until this part. Haley DID say why Greysky should be avoided - namely, because it's dangerous there, people get killed for having gold and they wouldn't find any clerics willing to raise Roy. Why should there be more to that for Celia to accept that argument? If someone tells you to avoid the "bad" part of town because it's dangerous and you can get mugged, you normally don't demand the person to admit that they have some sort of secret past with the muggers there in order to take their word for it, especially if you're a stranger to the entire country and really have no idea how things work there even in general.

And Celia may have had no specific reason to trust her (except that Haley is a friend and the second-in-command of Roy, Celia's boyfriend, which should put Haley in at least a somewhat favourable light), but she has no reason to distrust her, either. And that's exactly what she's showing when she decides that Haley's assessment of Greysky City is somehow wrong. And yes, to Celia's eyes, Haley has made mistakes (staying in AC for too long, failing to unite the different Resistance groups), but a lack of judgement in that kind of thing does not preclude simple knowledge of how dangerous a certain city is.

(By the way, Celia's line "He's my boyfriend, not yours" implies that she really does have the wrong idea about exactly how loyal to Roy Haley is.)

For my personal interpretation, I do not think Celia ignored Haley's warning out of paranoia that Haley was setting something up. I think she didn't takeHaley's warning seriously because, for reasons outlined in 669, she simply couldn't wrap her mind around the idea of people being as evil and violent as that and decided that Haley was just being weird about the whole thing.

I still think that she is very naive and removed from reality at that time, because she'd already faced people who were trying to kill others before (the Linear Guild, Miko, not to mention the Resistance leaders who tried to chop each other up over an insult). She's seen that people are violent, the idea that a city could be full of violent people shouldn't be THAT incomprehensible to her. Therefore, a failure to take Haley's warning seriously means a failure to pause and reflect on how things work on the Material plane. Which makes her quite an airhead. XD

[Wikimaster]

C'mon, she explained her actions in-panel, and her rationale was not unreasonable. That was an action from someone who had never attended Adventuring 101, that's all. Haley herself wasn't all that pissed off about that little stunt.

Anyway, am I the only one who thinks this entire discussion is way too serious ? Sure Celia did some really stupid, ignorant things. That's what OOTS is about : stick figures fooling around for our entertainment. If this comic had awards for Abysmally Stupid Decisions Leading to Painful (but Hilarious) Consequences, I'm fairly sure Celia wouldn't even make the top ten.

I give my agreement.

[Mike_G]

Well said.

But there is nothing really to root for. Roy finds Space Girl sexy. Space Girl finds Roy sexy. Anything else?

And there's a problem with that?

Roy is in a dangerous business, fighting a very powerful undead spellcaster. It would be silly of him to be planning a long, slow retirement with grandkids on his knee.

"I may be dead in a month, but at least I will be able to check off the 'flying nookie' box on my life list," is not a bad depiction.

As far as Celia's interest, Roy is a big, strong, dangerous guy, while still on the "good" side. She is acting like what we in the Emergency Services call a "badge bunny." Again, there's lot of real world evidence to support that.

As a former Marine and current Paramedic, I will decline to answer any questions as to personal knowledge of any of this type of thing.

[Tenebrais]

I mostly agreed with your points until this part. Haley DID say why Greysky should be avoided - namely, because it's dangerous there, people get killed for having gold and they wouldn't find any clerics willing to raise Roy. Why should there be more to that for Celia to accept that argument?

Because it sounds like a lie. Sure, it wasn't, but consider: Haley didn't give that explanation for a long time, and when she did it was when tired and about to go to sleep. It sounds like the sort of thing she could have made up simply to make Celia stop arguing. This, in addition to the fact that to Celia the idea of a city populated entirely by evil people is outright absurd (would you believe someone who told you a city in real life was populated entirely by, say, rapists?), would not help to dispel the thought that Haley wants to avoid the city for personal reasons.

Yes, it was a bad idea to ignore Haley and go into the city. But Haley really didn't do a good job of making that clear. Plus, despite the danger, it worked out well all-round, meaning that Celia still has no reason to see that she was wrong to go ahead with it.


This sort of thing is probably why Haley doesn't feel she's cut out to be a leader.

[Aris Katsaris]

How many times exactly did Haley save her airy ***? :smallfurious:

Once?


Would have been a good point of time for Roy to actually defend Haley there instead of just somehow justifying working together with her.

It's difficult to defend Haley's opposition to Celia's agreement with the guild, *without* knowing that Haley also needs the money to save her dad.

Celia made an agreement that helped them secure back Roy's body. True it was Celia's fault that it had gotten lost in the first place, but that a fault of judgment, not of moral reasoning.

Haley's objection seems flawed morally: "You're using the money that I've worked so hard to steal from others, just because you wanted to make sure fewer people would lose their lives!"

[Kaytara]

Because it sounds like a lie. Sure, it wasn't, but consider: Haley didn't give that explanation for a long time, and when she did it was when tired and about to go to sleep. It sounds like the sort of thing she could have made up simply to make Celia stop arguing. This, in addition to the fact that to Celia the idea of a city populated entirely by evil people is outright absurd (would you believe someone who told you a city in real life was populated entirely by, say, rapists?), would not help to dispel the thought that Haley wants to avoid the city for personal reasons.
The latter is something I already acknowledged - Celia has difficulties imagining a truly dangerous human city. I also said that I still think it's a sign of her failing to think things through, because she's already seen that people ARE dangerous and CAN do violence. In any case, it works more as an explanation rather than an excuse.

Your first point... True, Haley does seem awfully suspiciously evasive on the matter ("It's a bad idea! It just IS, okay?") at first, before telling Celia just how dangerous it is, but I think the reasonable course of action in that case isn't to just go over Haley's head on it. If Celia suspected that Haley wasn't telling the truth, she should have stopped and outright confronted her about it in a direct way. ("Alright, Haley, now tell me the real reason why you don't want to go to that city, or I'm picking up Roy's body and flying away with it.") She should not have gone all "Clearly, Haley has personal issues with that town, so all the bad things she said about it MUST be untrue! To Greysky City! Whee!".


Yes, it was a bad idea to ignore Haley and go into the city. But Haley really didn't do a good job of making that clear.
Well, I don't know... the next step in making things clear would have been a huge neon sign saying "GREYSKY IS BAD!". Just how clear is clear, anyway? As I said above, if you think something is fishy, you confront them about it. You don't decide that, just because they're fishy, they must be wrong. You would if you actually had reason to suspect that they are trying to trick you, such as if they were strangers or working for the enemy, but Haley's an ally with common interests. Confronting her really should be the default reasonable option here.


Once?
Haley was fighting to protect both of them against the whole Thieves Guild. I'm pretty sure that, had Haley suddenly vanished just before the fight, the thieves would have made short work of Celia. True, Celia did help save Haley from Bozzok and Crystal later, but given that it was her fault they were stuck in the city in the first place... yeah.


It's difficult to defend Haley's opposition to Celia's agreement with the guild, *without* knowing that Haley also needs the money to save her dad.

Celia made an agreement that helped them secure back Roy's body. True it was Celia's fault that it had gotten lost in the first place, but that a fault of judgment, not of moral reasoning.

Haley's objection seems flawed morally: "You're using the money that I've worked so hard to steal from others, just because you wanted to make sure fewer people would lose their lives!"

You're quoting out of context. No one is asking Roy to defend Haley morally there. Raptor was saying that it was an inappropriate response to Celia's statement that Haley actually didn't care at all about the mission and was just furthering her own goals and doing what was convenient for her - a statement that is quite simply ridiculous after everything Haley has done for the mission that ran directly counter to her own goals - which Roy knows. But instead of pointing that out, he talks about not seeing eye to eye and working with her, instead.

[Tenebrais]

The latter is something I already acknowledged - Celia has difficulties imagining a truly dangerous human city. I also said that I still think it's a sign of her failing to think things through, because she's already seen that people ARE dangerous and CAN do violence. In any case, it works more as an explanation rather than an excuse.

Your first point... True, Haley does seem awfully suspiciously evasive on the matter ("It's a bad idea! It just IS, okay?") at first, before telling Celia just how dangerous it is, but I think the reasonable course of action in that case isn't to just go over Haley's head on it. If Celia suspected that Haley wasn't telling the truth, she should have stopped and outright confronted her about it in a direct way. ("Alright, Haley, now tell me the real reason why you don't want to go to that city, or I'm picking up Roy's body and flying away with it.") She should not have gone all "Clearly, Haley has personal issues with that town, so all the bad things she said about it MUST be untrue! To Greysky City! Whee!".


Well, I don't know... the next step in making things clear would have been a huge neon sign saying "GREYSKY IS BAD!". Just how clear is clear, anyway? As I said above, if you think something is fishy, you confront them about it. You don't decide that, just because they're fishy, they must be wrong. You would if you actually had reason to suspect that they are trying to trick you, such as if they were strangers or working for the enemy, but Haley's an ally with common interests. Confronting her really should be the default reasonable option here.

Except Haley called an end to the conversation there - there's no chance for further discussion. By morning they'd be moving on past the city, so the choice here was between the risk that the fact that the extremely ill-defined dangers of the city might be true and the certainty that the alternative is a further long delay.

[wellington]

Regardless of whatever lip-service is given to alignment, most characters in the OOTS-verse are absolutely pragmatic about certain things, and only occasionally stray towards thinking about their moral implications. If Redcloak's backstory is any indication, this isn't universally approved of.

Celia's an odd duck. She starts out with moral beliefs that have no obvious connection to stereotyped alignment rules, and have more to do with real principles. If necessary, she'll stray towards the practical, but hasn't done that yet. But if she stayed in the adventuring business, she'd pick it up eventually, probably as soon as one of her decisions actually got an innocent person hurt.

She made the wrong decision in going to Greysky City, for the right reasons - that is, to save her boyfriend when it appeared that Haley was dodging the issue. Experienced, practical people like Haley sometimes do morally dubious things, and that appeared to be the case here. She made a defensible, but impractical, decision in bargaining to raise the people Haley killed - defensible because, if you have the mindset of a healer rather than a pragmatic adventurer, the good of the patient overrides all else, even the evil of the patient.

But if one of those resurrected criminals killed Haley or Roy, Celia would be hurting. This distinguishes her from, say, Miko, and makes me regret that we won't be seeing more character development from her.

[Kaytara]

Except Haley called an end to the conversation there - there's no chance for further discussion. By morning they'd be moving on past the city, so the choice here was between the risk that the fact that the extremely ill-defined dangers of the city might be true and the certainty that the alternative is a further long delay.

Haley having tried to call an end to the discussion hasn't stopped Celia before, such as when she convinced Haley to leave the city. This sort of argument is denying Celia her option of taking initiative. Regardless of what Haley said, there's simply no reason Celia couldn't have done what she had done then - threatened to grab Roy and get out of there unless Haley explained what was going on.


But if one of those resurrected criminals killed Haley or Roy, Celia would be hurting. This distinguishes her from, say, Miko, and makes me regret that we won't be seeing more character development from her.

Good point. Gah, now I'm sorry that she's leaving, as well! Maybe it'll still come later.

[Lissou]

To me, Celia was always the "reader" character. In other words, what would happen if someone from our world ended up projected into OOTS.
This strip only confirmed it for me. The whole speech Roy gives about how the OOTS do things because of resurrections and knowing there are Gods and so on just shouts it in my opinion.
Celia is the Earth-person point of view, meant to show how DnD is different from real life through humorous situations.
Of course, she also isn't human so you can add to that a lack of knowledge about humans. But any human would have a lack of knowledge about every single other race if thrown in Dnd-world, so I think it's still part of the same thing.

[Optimystik]

To me, Celia was always the "reader" character. In other words, what would happen if someone from our world ended up projected into OOTS.
This strip only confirmed it for me. The whole speech Roy gives about how the OOTS do things because of resurrections and knowing there are Gods and so on just shouts it in my opinion.
Celia is the Earth-person point of view, meant to show how DnD is different from real life through humorous situations.
Of course, she also isn't human so you can add to that a lack of knowledge about humans. But any human would have a lack of knowledge about every single other race if thrown in Dnd-world, so I think it's still part of the same thing.

I'm fine with that, except for one thing. As a reader thrust into the OotS world, you'd better believe that I would listen to what the adventurers are telling me to do, and take as few actions as possible without their guidance.

Celia does anything but. She acknowledges that she is a fish out of water, and then expects everything to be fine when she goes her own way anyway. Second, while she has the mentality of a reader character, she is far better equipped - sorcerer spells = her hit dice, EX flight, and improved invisibility at will - abilities she squanders while whining at the PCs to do things her way. She is impossible for me to identify with or feel sympathy for, period.

[Tenebrais]

I'm fine with that, except for one thing. As a reader thrust into the OotS world, you'd better believe that I would listen to what the adventurers are telling me to do, and take as few actions as possible without their guidance.

Celia does anything but. She acknowledges that she is a fish out of water, and then expects everything to be fine when she goes her own way anyway. Second, while she has the mentality of a reader character, she is far better equipped - sorcerer spells = her hit dice, EX flight, and improved invisibility at will - abilities she squanders while whining at the PCs to do things her way. She is impossible for me to identify with or feel sympathy for, period.

So she doesn't talk to the adventurers enough but wastes her potential by talking to the adventurers too much?

[Optimystik]

So she doesn't talk to the adventurers enough but wastes her potential by talking to the adventurers too much?

Listen to and talk to are two different things. Celia does not enough of the former, far too much of the latter.

[Ancalagon]

Listen to and talk to are two different things. Celia does not enough of the former, far too much of the latter.

(Now in the correct thread, I hope ;))
Plus add some truely braindamaged "sticking to principles" - the scene where she flies to collect the candy-bar comes to mind. It was very funny as joke, but also showed she's "really not from this world" - to an extend where it basically becomes "insanity".

[Wikimaster]

Regardless of whatever lip-service is given to alignment, most characters in the OOTS-verse are absolutely pragmatic about certain things, and only occasionally stray towards thinking about their moral implications. If Redcloak's backstory is any indication, this isn't universally approved of.

Celia's an odd duck. She starts out with moral beliefs that have no obvious connection to stereotyped alignment rules, and have more to do with real principles. If necessary, she'll stray towards the practical, but hasn't done that yet. But if she stayed in the adventuring business, she'd pick it up eventually, probably as soon as one of her decisions actually got an innocent person hurt.

She made the wrong decision in going to Greysky City, for the right reasons - that is, to save her boyfriend when it appeared that Haley was dodging the issue. Experienced, practical people like Haley sometimes do morally dubious things, and that appeared to be the case here. She made a defensible, but impractical, decision in bargaining to raise the people Haley killed - defensible because, if you have the mindset of a healer rather than a pragmatic adventurer, the good of the patient overrides all else, even the evil of the patient.

But if one of those resurrected criminals killed Haley or Roy, Celia would be hurting. This distinguishes her from, say, Miko, and makes me regret that we won't be seeing more character development from her.

Can I make that last paragraph my sig?

[Roderick_BR]

I never got why people "hated" Celia. She's just not an adventurer. She's not used to most human customs, AND is not used to adventurer's life style. Imagine yourself, would you feel fine if you went outside, someone attacked you to steal your stuff, and by luck you managed to fight back and kill the other guy? I know I would, for the next minutes be all like "Wow, I did it!" and "take that, ya bastard". Then I'd pass the rest of my life doing therapy because I killed a person (even if it was self-defense). Now imagine talking to people you know does it in a regular basis, and worse, use it as his first option when dealing with a problem, even if you know it's a necessity in the place you live.
That's what happens to Celia. She prefers to avoid the bloodshed, as much as others non-adventurers types. Shes does a lot of wrong choices, true, in many places, in a medieval fantasy world, you need to use force, and she was trying to avoid, but you can understand why.

[NYYanks6083]

Meh, Celia's on and off for me. I've liked her in some situations, less in others.

I think part of the reason people find her annoying is she has a "my way or the highway" attitude, and tends to either tell people what to do, or go straight over their heads. Sometimes her decisions are right(getting Haley to leave Azure City) other times they lead to hilarious disaster ::cough:: bone golem ::cough:: :smalltongue:

Also, Celia's criticism of Haley in 669 is, well, incorrect. Haley has done several things that weren't for her own personal interest. If she really wanted to she could have left soon as the Azure City fell and gotten out of the whole mess right there. Instead, she stuck around and formed a resistance (including going out of her way to rescue Thanh, despite putting herself in serious danger to do so). Celia certainly isn't at fault for refusing to take life, but that doesn't make Haley a cold-blooded killer for taking out genuinely evil people who, if given the chance, would have done the same to her in a heartbeat (hobgoblins, Crystal etc).

[Lissou]

Also, Celia's criticism of Haley in 669 is, well, incorrect.

The way I read the criticism is that Celia meant that Haley was upset that she had to give money to the Guild, and would have rather they stayed dead and she could keep the money. Therefore, putting money before human lives, while Celia doesn't get.

[Optimystik]

The way I read the criticism is that Celia meant that Haley was upset that she had to give money to the Guild, and would have rather they stayed dead and she could keep the money. Therefore, putting money before human lives, while Celia doesn't get.

She had a good reason for them to stay dead BESIDES the money. You know, that whole attempted murder thing.


I never got why people "hated" Celia. She's just not an adventurer. She's not used to most human customs, AND is not used to adventurer's life style.

Every time this defense is raised I get more and more confused. I'm not an adventurer either, but you can be damn sure I'd follow the instructions of the actual adventurers, or at least stay out of their way.

I don't mind people supporting Celia if they feel like it, but using "she's not an adventurer!" is a very poor reason to do that. If you're climbing a mountain, you listen to the sherpa. If you're in the jungle, you listen to your aboriginal guide. If you're diving for the first time, you listen to your diving buddy. You don't lecture them constantly and do things behind their back. It's really not a hard concept.

[Ozymandias9]

Sure, but it would have been the kind of murder no one would have really cared to investigate. No one cries when a high ranking member of the mob gets killed. Vigilantism is illegal -- and should be -- but it isn't evil in D&D. That Haley enjoyed killing her evil sociopathic nemesis doesn't make the act evil. It doesn't even preclude it from being a good act.

I entirely agree that vigilantism isn't evil in D&D: in fact, I would posit that the structure of most game worlds presumes that vigilantism and mercenaries are not only legal but desirable. People were arguing, however, that Haley's act was somehow morally justified by self-defense. It's not.

And while Haley's enjoyment doesn't make it evil, the circumstances do. There was no immanent danger. Since she left the rest of the thieves guild intact, there's little room to presume that the action will protect the innocent. The same goes for the fact that a resurrection is presumed. The act isn't motivated by bringing a criminal to justice, but by a personal vendetta. This is pretty much a textbook evil killing in D&D.

The best that might be said is that she's attempting to make sure that her personal nemesis doesn't endanger the party's attempt to save the world and defeat Xykon. But an evil act in pursuit of good ends is, at best, neutral.


Back on the general topic, "at best, neutral" is pretty much all that Celia has seen from her companions since they left the Azure City. Greysky wasn't an accidental name. People give her a bit of a hard time, but she's not been witness to a great deal of events that support that the idea of being an adventurer can be morally sound.

[NYYanks6083]

And while Haley's enjoyment doesn't make it evil, the circumstances do. There was no immanent danger. Since she left the rest of the thieves guild intact, there's little room to presume that the action will protect the innocent. The same goes for the fact that a resurrection is presumed. The act isn't motivated by bringing a criminal to justice, but by a personal vendetta. This is pretty much a textbook evil killing in D&D.

I have to disagree for the following reasons. First off, Crystal had just recently tried to kill Haley. Second, and more importantly, she openly stated (see #621) that if the chance ever presented itself, even with their new "alliance", she would try to kill Haley again. Third, Crystal has proven herself to be very evil and very vindictive, so Haley has every good reason to believe Crystal will try to take her life again.

If Crystal had said something like "Fine, you're back, but stay the hell out of my way" then I'd agree, killing her would have been evil. She didn't. She BLATANTLY SWORE to kill Haley if she ever had a chance to. Beating a known, evil assassin who's made very believable threats against your life to the punch is, in my opinion, not evil. Lawful? no. Good? probably not. But evil, no.

[Optimystik]

I have to disagree for the following reasons. First off, Crystal had just recently tried to kill Haley. Second, and more importantly, she openly stated (see #621) that if the chance ever presented itself, even with their new "alliance", she would try to kill Haley again. Third, Crystal has proven herself to be very evil and very vindictive, so Haley has every good reason to believe Crystal will try to take her life again.

"I'll get you for this someday, Starshine!" isn't exactly the ringing prophecy of doom that you're trying to present here. It's just the kind of fist-shaking that villains typically do; the protagonist isn't meant to immediately use that as license to pre-emptively remove them from this mortal coil.

And answer this - if Haley didn't think what she did was wrong, why did she lie about it to Celia and Belkar? (Belkar both knew and approved of what she really did - another bad sign.)

[Ozymandias9]

If Crystal had said something like "Fine, you're back, but stay the hell out of my way" then I'd agree, killing her would have been evil. She didn't. She BLATANTLY SWORE to kill Haley if she ever had a chance to. Beating a known, evil assassin who's made very believable threats against your life to the punch is, in my opinion, not evil. Lawful? no. Good? probably not. But evil, no.

In that case, you're essentially arguing that self-defense should cover preemptive killing those who pose can pose a threat to you. Even assuming that, the argument is weak with the presumption of Crystal being raised: if they both expect Crystal to come back from the dead, then the killing hasn't even served the role of preemptive "defense."

Beyond that, most people hold morality to be contingent on actual events, not hypothetical ones. Killing Crystal for a mere threat is certainly evil. Crystal is not, at the moment, actively seeking Haley's death. The thing Haley is defending herself from is at best a "probably."

Consider the King who executes a married couple of adventurers for treason (we'll presume this is justified). He knows that their son is a talented rogue with anger issues. He fully expects that the son will want revenge. Is he justified in having the son killed because he expects the son to kill him?

[NYYanks6083]

"I'll get you for this someday, Starshine!" isn't exactly the ringing prophecy of doom that you're trying to present here. It's just the kind of fist-shaking that villains typically do; the protagonist isn't meant to immediately use that as license to pre-emptively remove them from this mortal coil.

I understand the point you're trying to make, That most people say things like "I swear i'm gonna kill you" all the time, but don't actually mean it, and the threat shouldn't be taken as so. Also, Crystal's choice of words are kinda "Scooby-Do"-ish and sound a little goofy. In most cases, i'd agree.

Crystal is not most people. Crystal IS a known murderer(meaning its obvious she has no problem taking life), and has ALREADY TRIED to kill Haley once(meaning she not only has no problem taking Haley's life, she'd do it for fun). Haley has every justifiable reason to consider Crystal a threat, she has PROVEN to be one. What guarantee does Haley have that in the middle of a battle, she won't suddenly show up and try to plunge a dagger into her back? It would be completely consistent with her actions up until now, even more so that Haley is leaving, and the Guild will no doubt be pretty PO'd about her not paying them, and who do you think would be gleefully volunteering to go after her? Hank?.

I'm not saying it was within legal bounds, or a good act, or acceptable by modern 21st century standards. but evil? no. Killing an Evil person who already tried to kill you once and has made it clear they WILL try to do so again is not evil.

And I will gladly answer this - As far as Celia goes, the giant smirk on Haley's face is her own inner amusement at Celia's naivety. She's not lying because she's afraid Celia will find out(since when has Haley EVER sought moral approval from her to begin with???) she's lying because she knows Celia will buy it.

[NYYanks6083]

In that case, you're essentially arguing that self-defense should cover preemptive killing those who pose can pose a threat to you. Even assuming that, the argument is weak with the presumption of Crystal being raised: if they both expect Crystal to come back from the dead, then the killing hasn't even served the role of preemptive "defense."

Interesting you should bring that up. In terms of what's considered self defense, if someone is making enough threatening advances towards you to the point where you can make the case you felt your were in danger, you CAN act first. If your convinced someone is about to punch you, you don't have to wait for them to do it to stop them(a police officer explained this to me).


Now, I'll agree, Crystal was not about to stab Haley AT THAT MOMENT. But i'm sorry, Crystal has proven to be exactly the type of person that would slit Haley's throat in her sleep the second she thought she could get away with it. I don't think it's unfair for Haley to say "ya know what, I'm not going to let her do that".

[hamishspence]

they've already been in one- the battle to rescue Roy's golem body. And Crystal took damage in the process.

Add in the fact that they were very shortly going to be a long way away, and it looks less like "pre-emptive self-defense" and more like "revenge".

[Kish]

Now, I'll agree, Crystal was not about to stab Haley AT THAT MOMENT. But i'm sorry, Crystal has proven to be exactly the type of person that would slit Haley's throat in her sleep the second she thought she could get away with it. I don't think it's unfair for Haley to say "ya know what, I'm not going to let her do that".
Not to put a fine point on it, how is this relevant? Killing someone and leaving them in a position to likely get resurrected isn't preventing them from coming after you--quite the contrary. If Haley was interested in preventing Crystal from attacking her in the future, she could have mutilated the body so that it required Resurrection instead of Raise Dead, or, if she could arrange it, burned the body so that it would take True Resurrection to get Crystal back. Instead, she gave Crystal an "if you get resurrected, tell Bozzok this" message, and she took Crystal's dagger as a trophy. Very much about revenge.

[David Argall]

Crystal is not most people. Crystal IS a known murderer, and has ALREADY TRIED to kill Haley once. Haley has every justifiable reason to consider Crystal a threat, she has PROVEN to be one.
Haley is about to be on another continent. Crystal has a tendency to get lost crossing the street. Unless guided to Haley by Bozzak or other boss, the danger of Crystal ever finding Haley again are trivial. And if she is guided, killing her is useless.



What guarantee does Haley have that in the middle of a battle, she won't suddenly show up and try to plunge a dagger into her back?
What guarantee does Haley have now? We assume Crystal will be raised. So she can be ordered to chase down Haley anyway.



I'm not saying it was within legal bounds, or a good act, or acceptable by modern 21st century standards. but evil? no. Killing an Evil person who already tried to kill you once and has made it clear they WILL try to do so again is not evil.
Any time you kill someone, that is evil. If you can avoid doing so, you should by the standards of good. Self defense is for when it is necessary, not when it is convenient.


And I will gladly answer this - As far as Celia goes, the giant smirk on Haley's face is her own inner amusement at Celia's naivety. She's not lying because she's afraid Celia will find out(since when has Haley EVER sought moral approval from her to begin with???) she's lying because she knows Celia will buy it.
Now the idea fails on two grounds.
a-when you lie to someone, you respect their opinion to some degree. Otherwise, why bother with the lie?
b-The very fact of lying is an acknowledgment that your behavior was defective from some view, generally including your own.

[Optimystik]

Kish, hamish, David AND myself all in agreement on something? I need to bookmark this thread...

[hamishspence]

yes- we all agree unnecessary violence is morally dubious, we just have different views on what's necessary (or if a reasonable person faced with the threat would believe it was necessary) a lot of the time.

Haley's action really isn't that different from V's, maybe "Haley is wrong because she doesn't have V's amazing deductive powers that show a person really is a serious future threat to her and innocents" or something like that. :smallamused:

[Optimystik]

Haley's action really isn't that different from V's, maybe "Haley is wrong because she doesn't have V's amazing deductive powers that show a person really is a serious future threat to her and innocents" or something like that. :smallamused:

Don't you start! Someone might take the bait, dammit! :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

good point- I'm just not a big fan of inconsistancy.

[Richard J.]

I think this strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html has a lot to do with why Celia thinks Haley does things that are convenient rather than necessary. It also goes to why Celia might not trust Haley's opinions and plans immediately. Haley's first impulse is a Murder is the Best Solution (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MurderIsTheBestSolution) plan that would actually have put the resistance fighters at risk. (Forgive me for the TVtropes link but I never would have discovered OotS without seeing it mentioned there numerous times, so please indulge me. :smallwink: )

Just a couple of strips later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html), Haley is defending Belkar and he's pointlessly killing a gnome for convenience (and his own amusement of course.) Next strip has Celia not even able to get Haley to be willing to try and do anything about it except out of sheer frustration to make Celia stop bugging her about punishing Belkar for unquestionable murder.

While I think Celia takes her pacifism and no-killing thing a bit too far, she's got a point. The problem Celia has is that she's missing some critical information when it comes to the Thieves Guild stuff later on. She doesn't know the reason Haley needs her loot. Remember, Haley has never told her there even IS a real reason. She referred to being a thief as having to "work for a living" and admitted that taking responsibility for her own actions was a new thing for her. If Celia understood why Haley needs her loot for herself rather than a few life returning spells, I think she'd have acted very differently during the Greysky City arc.

Celia's problem is that she's extremely naive about just how evil the world she's in can be. Sure she understands there are bad things but she doesn't expect them. She's young and she's likely had a fairly safe and sane life before now. Killing isn't her first instinct and she's just not used to a world with people like Belkar or Crystal or apparently the bulk of the population of Greysky City.

She's shown that she can and will use violence if provoked enough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html). If she stayed with the party long enough, I think she'd eventually get a bit rougher but her principles mean she can't be as rough as Haley. And since she doesn't know Haley's reasons, she judges her in a way that seems overly harsh to us since we know all of Haley's background but seems perfectly justifiable to her. Even Roy, who is lacking much of the same information, thinks Haley's a not-so-good person.

First post and I'm defending Celia. Considering I like the Sylph, it just seemed right. I'm going to miss seeing her on a regular basis but she's not dying so hopefully she'll show up again in the near future.

[Ancalagon]

Haley's action really isn't that different from V's, maybe "Haley is wrong because she doesn't have V's amazing deductive powers that show a person really is a serious future threat to her and innocents" or something like that. :smallamused:

I actually wondered why that did not come up more often. ;)

Haleys murder was utterly, outright evil and that Crystal "deserved it" does not make it any better. But V is bad, but Haley is cool.
I think the difference (not in ingcomic-alignment-shift-terms but in reader's-reactions-terms) is quite simple: Both were utterly evil, but only one of them went over the top and kicked the puppy.

[hamishspence]

I was thinking of the Kubota case actually- people are rather more eager to defend that one than Familicide.

(which only a few people defend on the grounds of "any killing of Always Evil monsters is OK")

[Optimystik]

Before I begin, welcome to the forums! Glad you enjoy the comic. :smallsmile:

*sharpens claws*


I think this strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html has a lot to do with why Celia thinks Haley does things that are convenient rather than necessary. It also goes to why Celia might not trust Haley's opinions and plans immediately. Haley's first impulse is a Murder is the Best Solution (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MurderIsTheBestSolution) plan that would actually have put the resistance fighters at risk.

All that strip does is point out what a hypocrite Celia is to me even more. When Celia brought the risk to the resistance to Haley's attention, Haley listened to her and followed her lead. Yet when the tables are turned Celia goes behind Haley's back - repeatedly - and acts on her own, only to make things worse.


Just a couple of strips later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html), Haley is defending Belkar and he's pointlessly killing a gnome for convenience (and his own amusement of course.) Next strip has Celia not even able to get Haley to be willing to try and do anything about it except out of sheer frustration to make Celia stop bugging her about punishing Belkar for unquestionable murder.

What exactly was Haley supposed to do? String him up from the nearest tree?


While I think Celia takes her pacifism and no-killing thing a bit too far, she's got a point. The problem Celia has is that she's missing some critical information when it comes to the Thieves Guild stuff later on. She doesn't know the reason Haley needs her loot. Remember, Haley has never told her there even IS a real reason. She referred to being a thief as having to "work for a living" and admitted that taking responsibility for her own actions was a new thing for her. If Celia understood why Haley needs her loot for herself rather than a few life returning spells, I think she'd have acted very differently during the Greysky City arc.

Celia's problem is that she's extremely naive about just how evil the world she's in can be. Sure she understands there are bad things but she doesn't expect them. She's young and she's likely had a fairly safe and sane life before now. Killing isn't her first instinct and she's just not used to a world with people like Belkar or Crystal or apparently the bulk of the population of Greysky City.

Celia's knowledge, or lack thereof, is completely irrelevant. It's not her gold. She is a self-proclaimed foreigner; her most frequent defense (and that of her supporters) is not knowing how things work in OotSland.

Well gosh, that's a pretty good argument for listening when she's told to do something, wouldn't you agree? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html)


She's shown that she can and will use violence if provoked enough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html). If she stayed with the party long enough, I think she'd eventually get a bit rougher but her principles mean she can't be as rough as Haley. And since she doesn't know Haley's reasons, she judges her in a way that seems overly harsh to us since we know all of Haley's background but seems perfectly justifiable to her. Even Roy, who is lacking much of the same information, thinks Haley's a not-so-good person.

Haley IS a "not-so-good person." That doesn't mean she's not dedicated to the mission. Celia's assessment and Roy's are quite different; he even ends up speaking to Celia sternly over it.

As for Celia's "violence," that was pre-Cerebus and a last-panel gag to boot. We can't use it to judge her character several hundred strips later.


First post and I'm defending Celia. Considering I like the Sylph, it just seemed right. I'm going to miss seeing her on a regular basis but she's not dying so hopefully she'll show up again in the near future.

If it's 100 strips from now, it'll be 100 strips too soon.

[hamishspence]

If it's 100 strips from now, it'll be 100 strips too soon.


So you wouldn't object to seeing Celia 200 strips from now? :smallamused:

[Optimystik]

So you wouldn't object to seeing Celia 200 strips from now? :smallamused:

I'm beginning to think you enjoy fanning my flames. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

I have an unusual sense of humour. :smallamused:

And at least your arguments for (Or against) a character's behaviour being wrong, are easy (and interesting) to read.

[NYYanks6083]

Haley is about to be on another continent. Crystal has a tendency to get lost crossing the street. Unless guided to Haley by Bozzak or other boss, the danger of Crystal ever finding Haley again are trivial. And if she is guided, killing her is useless. All it would take is a mid-level caster, which we've seen the guild has, a scrying spell(cloister will wear off eventually) and a scroll of teleport(im sure the guild has at least a couple) to get Crystal there and back, and she can do the rest.


What guarantee does Haley have now? We assume Crystal will be raised. So she can be ordered to chase down Haley anyway.


We have no idea if she will be resurrected or not. The guild was planning on using Haley's money to fund all those resurrections, which they will obviously not be getting. Maybe Bozzok will decide she's worth raising, maybe he'll decide to spend the money on someone who doesn't use pickles for a ranged attack.


Any time you kill someone, that is evil. If you can avoid doing so, you should by the standards of good. Self defense is for when it is necessary, not when it is convenient.

I'll absolutely agree that killing is NEVER GOOD, or that killing an INNOCENT person is certainly always evil. But consider this example. Killing an evil dictator who regularly abuses his people, causing widespread death and poverty. This man has gallons of blood on his hands, and you've undoubtedly saved lives by doing it. Is it a good act? No. But considering the positive repercussions and the very non-innocent nature of the target, I wouldn't call it evil either.

Crystal is not a dictator, but she is in the same category of evil. She kills people wantonly and without regret. Now, that alone is not enough to justify killing her. You can't kill someone just because they're evil. However, Combine that with the fact she made it clear to Haley she's at the top of her list, I'd say that's enough for Haley to consider the bloodythirsty vengeful assassin a legit threat to her life, and not want YET ANOTHER recurring villain trying to eviscerate her:smalltongue:.




Now the idea fails on two grounds.
a-when you lie to someone, you respect their opinion to some degree. Otherwise, why bother with the lie?
b-The very fact of lying is an acknowledgment that your behavior was defective from some view, generally including your own.

This is not always true. Very often people lie because they simply don't CARE about the other person's opinion, and don't feel like listening to a lecture from them because they don't value what they have to say in the first place. Also, if she told Celia what she did, Celia what probably cause a scene, attracting other guild members, and causing a serious problem.

People also lie because they find it funny to watch the other person go around actually believing what they've just told them. People do this all the time. A little kid will ask his big brother where babies come from and his big brother will tell him hamsters bring them in the night, because he finds it funny that he'll actually go around believing that. Why do you think Haley has a giant smile on her face as she says it.

Look, I completely respect what you're saying that killing is generally wrong, and I'm not making the case that what Haley did was nice, or acceptable by the standards of a 21st Century Courtroom. But I AM saying that given that Crystal made it clear she WILL kill Haley when the chance arises (and the fact that Crystal is evil with evil sauce and an extra side evil) I don;t think its an evil act to take her out before she has a chance to do so. That's my opinion and i'm stickin to it.

[Tenebrais]

All it would take is a mid-level caster, which we've seen the guild has, a scrying spell(cloister will wear off eventually) and a scroll of teleport(im sure the guild has at least a couple) to get Crystal there and back, and she can do the rest.

All it would take is that plus a pickpocketed bag of diamonds to do the same thing anyway, even with Haley's killing. And after such betrayal, she's given Bozzok a very good reason to do that. Plus, who better to send after Haley than her nemesis?

[Random832]

pickpocketed bag of diamonds

You know, I'd forgotten about that.

[Optimystik]

I have an unusual sense of humour. :smallamused:

And at least your arguments for (Or against) a character's behaviour being wrong, are easy (and interesting) to read.

:smallredface:
*bows*


Plus, who better to send after Haley than her nemesis?

Someone competent?

[SoC175]

Now it makes more sense. She just don't understand the existance of Evil.

In the plane of air no one tries to kill you for looking funny at them years ago, so Celia don't realiza the thieve's guild were exactly that kind of people.
It does nothing to redeem her, it only shows that her naivety is even worse than we thought previously. Because the elemental plane of air is actually far from being as nice as she describes it. It tells that she knows as little about her homeplane as she knows about the prime material plane.

There are plenty nasty entities on the elemental plane of air that don't even need you looking funny at them years ago to have a reason for killing them. They'll kill you (or worse) without any reason at all, just because they enjoy it.

There are evil dschinn slavers, there are evil servants of evil deities with air-related portfolios, there's the air prince of elemental evil with his host of evil air elemental beings bend on conquering the whole plane.

[King of Nowhere]

It does nothing to redeem her, it only shows that her naivety is even worse than we thought previously. Because the elemental plane of air is actually far from being as nice as she describes it. It tells that she knows as little about her homeplane as she knows about the prime material plane.

There are plenty nasty entities on the elemental plane of air that don't even need you looking funny at them years ago to have a reason for killing them. They'll kill you (or worse) without any reason at all, just because they enjoy it.

There are evil dschinn slavers, there are evil servants of evil deities with air-related portfolios, there's the air prince of elemental evil with his host of evil air elemental beings bend on conquering the whole plane.

Just because this stuff is on some book, it doesn't mean it is also in oots.

But even if that was the case, the point that she never really faced evil before still stands.

[hamishspence]

And its still the most hospitable of the Inner Planes (Djinn are mostly Good, whereas Efreeti and Dao are mostly Evil and Marids Chaotic Neutral).

I'm not sure how violent the Plane of Air is portrayed as.

[Tenebrais]

Someone competent?

The only people in the guild, as far as I could see, that even slowed Haley down were Crystal and Bozzok. Now, Bozzok himself couldn't leave the Guild's territory without losing his position, which really only leaves Crystal, who has the added bonus of matching Haley's level however high she goes.

[Optimystik]

I'm not sure how violent the Plane of Air is portrayed as.

Not very. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0071.html) :smalltongue:


The only people in the guild, as far as I could see, that even slowed Haley down were Crystal and Bozzok. Now, Bozzok himself couldn't leave the Guild's territory without losing his position, which really only leaves Crystal, who has the added bonus of matching Haley's level however high she goes.

This is balanced by her crippling lack of brain cells. But I agree, they really don't have anyone better.

[wellington]

Can I make that last paragraph my sig?

Go for it!


If you're climbing a mountain, you listen to the sherpa. If you're in the jungle, you listen to your aboriginal guide. If you're diving for the first time, you listen to your diving buddy. You don't lecture them constantly and do things behind their back. It's really not a hard concept.

If my guide said, "Don't go that way," yes, I'd listen. Celia didn't. In practical matters, experience trumps inexperience.

In moral questions, though, experience is just one factor. If my guide said, "That wounded man is evil, and you should let him die," then I'd beg to differ. I might ask a clarifying question. ("If I help him, will he try to kill me on the spot?") But if the answer were anything but "helping him puts us in immediate danger," I'd help.

I might well believe the guide's claim about the man's character, but I'd disagree with the conclusion. There are people who've been exposed to genuine evil who still believe in the neutrality of the medic, so why would worldly experience change my principles any more than it's changed theirs?

Experience is not a trump card. There's no evidence that Haley cared enough to put any skill points in "Dealing Compassionately with Your Fallen Enemies." At best, she knows the risks of leaving ruthless killers alive better than Celia. At worst, her moral judgment's actually been eroded a little from spending so much time killing things and looting their corpses.

This doesn't make Celia's decision right or Haley's decision wrong, but it certainly weakens the claim that Celia should have let Haley take the lead here. She saw she could negotiate a contract, she managed to negotiate a contract, and she did so knowing full well that she was effectively stealing Haley's (looted) gold. Experience might have taught her not to do that if she'd been allowed to try. Or maybe:


OLDER, WISER, EXPERIENCED CELIA. I'm sorry I used Haley's gold to raise the dead cutthroats.

I should have taken her gold and used it to raise some nameless NPC victims instead.

Or, for the ultimate "what the hell is her alignment now?" moment:


OLDER, WISER, EXPERIENCED CELIA: I should have earned the money myself, and used it to raise some of the hobgoblins we killed.

[Optimystik]

In moral questions, though, experience is just one factor. If my guide said, "That wounded man is evil, and you should let him die," then I'd beg to differ. I might ask a clarifying question. ("If I help him, will he try to kill me on the spot?") But if the answer were anything but "helping him puts us in immediate danger," I'd help.

Your analogy misses a key point - Celia knew for herself that Haley's targets, namely the hobgoblins and thieves, were evil and murderous. She saw both the huddled resistance and the bloodthirsty assassins with her own eyes. There was no need to rely on her "sherpa's" opinion for that conclusion, therefore no clarifying questions are necessary and this line of reasoning is invalidated.

[David Argall]

All it would take is a mid-level caster, which we've seen the guild has, a scrying spell(cloister will wear off eventually) and a scroll of teleport(im sure the guild has at least a couple) to get Crystal there and back, and she can do the rest.
Which as noted, is also about all it would take to send Crystal after her anyway. So the killing was useless from a self defense view.


We have no idea if she will be resurrected or not.
Crystal would obviously rank very high on any resurrection list. She is quite high level, and too stupid to try and take over. So we can call it just about certain she will be resurrected.



I'll absolutely agree that killing is NEVER GOOD, or that killing an INNOCENT person is certainly always evil. But consider this example. Killing an evil dictator who regularly abuses his people, causing widespread death and poverty. This man has gallons of blood on his hands, and you've undoubtedly saved lives by doing it. Is it a good act? No.
Actually, it is a good act. We save hundreds of lives at the cost of just one? Definitely good, whether innocent or not. Now what we do have is the loss of the one life, and that is still an evil. And we should be looking for ways to avoid that one death. But the killing of our blood dictator is at least possibly a good idea. [Note the possibly tho. His replacement might be worse, or his death could lead to a civil war that kills more, or... The good person using such methods can be on very dangerous ground, which is a good reason to avoid such ideas as much as possible.]


Crystal is not a dictator, but she is in the same category of evil. She kills people wantonly and without regret. Now, that alone is not enough to justify killing her. You can't kill someone just because they're evil. However, Combine that with the fact she made it clear to Haley she's at the top of her list, I'd say that's enough for Haley to consider the bloodythirsty vengeful assassin a legit threat to her life, and not want YET ANOTHER recurring villain trying to eviscerate her.
But as said, the killing does not seem to have saved any lives or lowered the danger to Haley. We can't really justify it. It's a pretty clear hate crime.



This is not always true. Very often people lie because they simply don't CARE about the other person's opinion, and don't feel like listening to a lecture from them because they don't value what they have to say in the first place. Also, if she told Celia what she did, Celia what probably cause a scene, attracting other guild members, and causing a serious problem.
Both of which amount to valuing the other person's opinion.


People also lie because they find it funny to watch the other person go around actually believing what they've just told them. People do this all the time.
a-"All the time" is a quite small percentage here.
b-Fooling Celia just to fool her makes little sense here. Fooling her to avoid a scene is much more reasonable.



Why do you think Haley has a giant smile on her face as she says it.
Why not? She's got her boyfriend back. The party is rejoining. Roy will be back soon. They are leaving this dive. She just ripped Crystal off for some useful magic ... And Haley may be the PC who smiles the most anyway.

[OITS]

I always liked her. She reflected about things.
I think everybody around these boards is a roleplayer, but most of us have never thought about it, how ridiculous it is to grab a greatsword and run through the land, slaughtering everything. Trying to do good things is one thing - risking his own life and actually taking lives of others is another one. Most people in real life would never be able to kill anybody, but while playing DnD we don't really think, what it means, because it is only a game. It may be a game, but the characters don't know they're in a game, they can die and they have to live with the nightmare of having ended the life of hundreds of goblins who all had families and possibly weren't even hostile.
Celia is a much deeper character. She, like most real people, simply can't kill somebody, even in self-defence. This sets her much closer to real people, and this is, why I always liked her. #669 was an attempt to show this to everybody, and it seems, as if it somehow worked out.

Another very important thing: she makes this comic be more of a story of some guys who need to kill a lich to save the world. Without her, they would be some character sheets who try to lower the HP of a monster below zero by rolling some dice.

[Ozymandias9]

Interesting you should bring that up. In terms of what's considered self defense, if someone is making enough threatening advances towards you to the point where you can make the case you felt your were in danger, you CAN act first. If your convinced someone is about to punch you, you don't have to wait for them to do it to stop them(a police officer explained this to me).

They have to be about to punch you. Not intent at punching you some time in the future. The threat need not be manifest, but must be imminent. This is a fundamental element of the moral justification of self-defense.


Now, I'll agree, Crystal was not about to stab Haley AT THAT MOMENT. But i'm sorry, Crystal has proven to be exactly the type of person that would slit Haley's throat in her sleep the second she thought she could get away with it. I don't think it's unfair for Haley to say "ya know what, I'm not going to let her do that".

And if you presented this scenario to a police officer, they would tell you that it constituted premeditated murder. Just because a decision is reasonable, rational, and expedient doesn't make it not evil.


Moreover, keep in mind that Celia is viewing this whole situation from a point of view that is more or less a simulacrum of that of a civilized modern person. She's a in law school, she lives in a place where violence is rare and she can presuppose the rule of law. And most of her time adventuring is in Greysky, where EVERYONE'S actions are morally ambiguous at best. Even if you can don't view Haley's actions as evil, Celia's point of view should.

[Optimystik]

Another very important thing: she makes this comic be more of a story of some guys who need to kill a lich to save the world. Without her, they would be some character sheets who try to lower the HP of a monster below zero by rolling some dice.

It took the giant, pacifistic, lawyer fairy sorceress to immerse you in the story? Tough crowd. :smallsigh: