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View Full Version : 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.



HMS Invincible
2009-07-16, 04:29 PM
How does the updated stealth rules work? It was really long and I ended up getting a headache and stopped reading.

An example would be nice or a template for a rogue looking to sneak attack more.
Assume we have a lvl 6 rogue with fleeting ghost power. Can he move, stealth and then sneak attack, round after round, if he succeeds on his stealth check?

RTGoodman
2009-07-16, 04:48 PM
Let's start by taking the fully-updated rules for Stealth, as they appear in PHB2 and the Compendium.


STEALTH (DEXTERITY)
Armor Check Penalty
Make a Stealth check to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, and sneak up on people without being seen or heard.

This skill is used against another creatureís Perception check or against a DC set by the DM.

Okay, there's the basics - it's a Dex-skill, armor check penalties apply, and in general it's opposed by Perception or a DM-imposed DC.



Stealth: At the end of a move action.
♦Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception. If multiple enemies are present, your Stealth check is opposed by each enemyís passive Perception check. If you move more than 2 squares during the move action, you take a Ė5 penalty to the Stealth check. If you run, the penalty is Ė10.
♦Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if youíre outside the enemyís line of sight. Outside combat, the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you donít have superior cover or total concealment and arenít outside the enemyís line of sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different direction, allowing you to sneak up.

Alright. The first part is simply when you can use your Stealth skill - at the end of a Move Action. Once you've moved, you make a Stealth check, with a penalty if you've moved more than 2 squares. You have to have superior cover or total concealment against an enemy or be outside its line of sight, unless you're out of combat and the DM okays it.



♦Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy.
♦Failure: You can try again at the end of another move action.
♦Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.
♦ Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you donít remain hidden from that enemy. You donít need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You canít use another creature as cover to remain hidden.
♦ Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you donít remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.

If you succeed on beating the DC or the enemy's passive perception score with your Stealth check, you're hidden - silent and invisible. You stay hidden until you cease to have cover/concealment or if you come into the enemy's line of sight. You don't have to maintain TOTAL concealment or SUPERIOR cover, but just SOME of it. And you can't be loud, or they can hear you.



♦ Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a Ė5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is Ė10. If any enemyís passive Perception check beats your check result, you donít remain hidden from that enemy.
♦ Donít Attack: If you attack, you donít remain hidden.
♦ Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You canít become hidden again as part of that same action.

If you move more than 2 squares, you lose your previous Stealth and have to start over. Pretty simple.

If you attack, you give your position away, and you're not hidden. However, you can still use your move action on your turn to move elsewhere and try to use Stealth again (assuming you can meet the prerequisites).

If you DO give yourself away, you still get the benefits of being hidden until the end of the action that gave you away. So if you attack, you still get your bonus to hit, sneak attack, and so on. You can't use the same action to give yourself away AND hide, though.



-Enemy Activity: An enemy can try to find you on its turn. If an enemy makes an active Perception check and beats your Stealth check result (donít make a new check), you donít remain hidden from that enemy. Also, if an enemy tries to enter your space, you donít remain hidden from that enemy.

An enemy can actively look for you. Pretty simple.
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Fleeting ghost (Rogue utility 2) simply lets you move up to your speed and make a Stealth check (which you could normally do anyway), but without taking the penalty for moving. He could, in theory, make an attack, then use fleeting ghost to move somewhere where he meets the Stealth prerequisites (superior cover, total concealment, out of line of sight, etc.) and make his Hide check. If he beats any enemy's passive perception, he's hidden against them. If they don't look for him, he can attack next turn (assuming he has line of sight and line of effect to them), which would give him CA/sneak attack but also make him unhidden, and then he could use fleeting ghost again to move and hide.

Now, which part(s) do you still have questions about?

Note, of course, that there are a LOT of ways besides Stealth for a Rogue to get Combat Advantage and thus Sneak Attack. Depending on your party, you could probably have CA against at least one enemy and get sneak attack every turn.

Burley
2009-07-17, 06:50 AM
Wait... I didn't catch that. Explain it again? :smalltongue:

Good break down of the rule. I had a problem teaching a player some of these rules. Not the Stealth rule, cause this is actually how my group orginally played stealth before the change.
Good job, Rtg0922. (I need to find you a nickname...)

RTGoodman
2009-07-17, 12:42 PM
Wait... I didn't catch that. Explain it again? :smalltongue:

Alright, lemme go find those updated Stealth rules and we'll start over... :smallwink:



Good job, Rtg0922. (I need to find you a nickname...)

Yeah, when I first signed up I didn't think I'd be around much, so I didn't pick a memorable username. Now ever so often I think about asking for a new one, but can't ever think of anything good. You can call me RTG or Ryan, I suppose. :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2009-07-17, 01:03 PM
Wow, I've never taken a hard look at the Stealth rules before. They look retarded. The first two sentences are good. In particular, the fact that your DM can set the DC (for noise, if you're talking, etc). After that, all they needed to add was "You take a -10 penalty if you run the same round that you make a Stealth check. You may only make a Stealth check if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy, if youíre outside the enemyís line of sight, or if the enemy is distracted (as determined by your DM). Everything else is just confusing.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 01:12 PM
Alright, lemme go find those updated Stealth rules and we'll start over... :smallwink:




Yeah, when I first signed up I didn't think I'd be around much, so I didn't pick a memorable username. Now ever so often I think about asking for a new one, but can't ever think of anything good. You can call me RTG or Ryan, I suppose. :smalltongue:

Artiji would be a great username.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-07-17, 02:21 PM
Wow, I've never taken a hard look at the Stealth rules before. They look retarded. The first two sentences are good. In particular, the fact that your DM can set the DC (for noise, if you're talking, etc). After that, all they needed to add was "You take a -10 penalty if you run the same round that you make a Stealth check. You may only make a Stealth check if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy, if youíre outside the enemyís line of sight, or if the enemy is distracted (as determined by your DM). Everything else is just confusing.
The way I see it, it's because invisibility is a huge benefit, and therefore any stealth rules will be interpreted to utter stupidity by munchkins. Wizards was just covering EVERY base.

Asbestos
2009-07-17, 02:25 PM
This makes me wonder if anyone has yet played a Rogue|Warlock with Shadow Walk via the Hybrid Talent feat. By RAW it'd let a rogue with a level 2 utility power walk around invisible all dang day long.

The thorn in its side is the fluffy sidebar in Arcane Power that describes Shadow Walk as a visual effect that grants concealment, sort of like generating a magical fog bank. Of course munchkins would argue that this is just fluff and has no effect on the RAW.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-17, 02:45 PM
This makes me wonder if anyone has yet played a Rogue|Warlock with Shadow Walk via the Hybrid Talent feat. By RAW it'd let a rogue with a level 2 utility power walk around invisible all dang day long.

The thorn in its side is the fluffy sidebar in Arcane Power that describes Shadow Walk as a visual effect that grants concealment, sort of like generating a magical fog bank. Of course munchkins would argue that this is just fluff and has no effect on the RAW.

I think you're mistaking the definition of munchkin there - they're the ones who will argue till they're blue in the face that the fluff text indicates they can use it to get Stealth.

Gralamin
2009-07-17, 02:48 PM
This makes me wonder if anyone has yet played a Rogue|Warlock with Shadow Walk via the Hybrid Talent feat. By RAW it'd let a rogue with a level 2 utility power walk around invisible all dang day long.

The thorn in its side is the fluffy sidebar in Arcane Power that describes Shadow Walk as a visual effect that grants concealment, sort of like generating a magical fog bank. Of course munchkins would argue that this is just fluff and has no effect on the RAW.

You can't hide in the Shadow Walk. You need at least Superior Concealment to start hiding, while Shadow Walk only gives normal.


Wow, I've never taken a hard look at the Stealth rules before. They look retarded. The first two sentences are good. In particular, the fact that your DM can set the DC (for noise, if you're talking, etc). After that, all they needed to add was "You take a -10 penalty if you run the same round that you make a Stealth check. You may only make a Stealth check if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy, if youíre outside the enemyís line of sight, or if the enemy is distracted (as determined by your DM). Everything else is just confusing.

A lot of what is there is to have it clear what happens when you interact with invisibility, blinding, and similar conditions. Combined with the other parts of the rules it influences, its rather well written, if a bit long.

Asbestos
2009-07-17, 04:50 PM
You can't hide in the Shadow Walk. You need at least Superior Concealment to start hiding, while Shadow Walk only gives normal.


Yes, but you only need cover or concealment to continue being hidden.

You get superior cover, you hide, you stay stealthed forever because you always have concealment.

RTGoodman
2009-07-17, 04:56 PM
You can't hide in the Shadow Walk. You need at least Superior Concealment to start hiding, while Shadow Walk only gives normal.

Yeah, but normal concealment is enough to CONTINUE your hiding.

With a Warlock/Rogue (or a hybrid Rogue|Warlock) with fleeting ghost, you could start out with Superior Cover or Concealment, use fleeting ghost to move your speed (or at least enough squares to trigger Shadow Walk), and then make your check again (with fleeting ghost, and thanks to your new Concealment) with no penalties for movement. It doesn't say when your actually GAIN your concealment (at the end of your move, at the end of your turn, as soon as you've moved the required number of squares, whatever), so you'd have to figure that out, but if it takes effect before you have to make your Stealth check, yeah, I guess it works.

There's also the problem of, basically, if you reveal yourself with an action, you can't hide as a part of that action. So if you get spotted by walking with fleeting ghost, you might or might not even be ABLE to make your check again. I suppose that's a Specific Vs. General rule that would come down on the side of fleeting ghost allowing it, but still... I think it's at best a mediocre strategy, and at worst doesn't work.

Gralamin
2009-07-17, 04:56 PM
Yes, but you only need cover or concealment to continue being hidden.

You get superior cover, you hide, you stay stealthed forever because you always have concealment.

You also cannot attack as long as you want to be stealthed.

Asbestos
2009-07-17, 06:09 PM
You also cannot attack as long as you want to be stealthed.

You also can't attack if you want to stay invisible with plain ol' invisibility in 3.x The point is it allows long term invisibility... of a sort. I never said it was effective, its just a cheesy theoretical build.

Oracle_Hunter
2009-07-17, 07:49 PM
You also can't attack if you want to stay invisible with plain ol' invisibility in 3.x The point is it allows long term invisibility... of a sort. I never said it was effective, its just a cheesy theoretical build.
Oh yeah, I saw this awhile ago - made a "Shadow Thief" build (using MC Utility instead of Hybrid).

Now, with the original build, it wasn't so broken - you needed to be 8th level to make it work. But, apparently, Hybrid is as dumb as I thought it would be :smallannoyed:

Some limitations:
(1) You must move at least 3 squares per turn, every turn, to keep it up.
(2) You'll need to make a new Stealth Check every turn - 'cause you move more than 2 squares (see Staying Hidden)
(3) It vanishes completely when you attack

By LV 8, this makes for a limited, but useful, form of long term invisibility. At LV 1 I feel it might still be too powerful.

To be honest, I like the rewritten Stealth rules - the original ones were terrible :smallyuk: