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Domigorgon
2009-07-16, 07:26 PM
I'll be DM-ing a 'testing' session this weekend to see how my players cope with an evil-oriented campaign. If it proves a success, we'll be continuing the campaign we've played for over a year now, only this time from the bad guys' perspective.

I'm curious to hear of other people's experiences, however, and would really appreciate some advice. All of you who might have played or DM-ed over evil parties - what major differences (as opposed to a good/neutral-aligned campaign) should I expect?

I have some doubts as to my player's abilities of grasping this change seriously. I'm half expecting them to go on a bloodthirsty rampage the minute we start the session, but then again they might see that that would not be wise in the long run. I really don't think I could ever prepare myself properly until I see them in action. Which is why we are doing a test session in the first place. Still, any advice you might give could prove useful eventually. :D

And, generally speaking, any tips on plot hooks, chaotic-evil-idiocy curtailment, dealing with goody-two-shoes, dealings with devils, evil spells, party motivation, etc., would be welcome. :)

Jalor
2009-07-16, 07:34 PM
It always helps to require your players to describe, in great detail, the goals of their characters. make it clear that they have to fit into the campaign. If the players are supposed to be methodical Bond-villain types, you'll have to reject the psychotic brute who just wants to eat babies.

If the players do something, have there be consequences. If they destroy a village, have some NPC adventurers hunt them down. If they complain, point out that the world is not static; their overt actions have made them the villains for someone else's campaign.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-16, 07:34 PM
I have some doubts as to my player's abilities of grasping this change seriously. I'm half expecting them to go on a bloodthirsty rampage the minute we start the session, but then again they might see that that would not be wise in the long run.


What's wrong with that? So long as they're all able to have fun with it, and keep their characters working together it's fine if they're working together to terrorize the countryside.

Anywhere you'd have a low-level necromancer raising a horde of skeletons to terrorize countryside villages, you can instead have a group of poorly armed peasants trying to protect their crops.

Heck, throw in a few orphanages built suspiciously close to the local alchemist's workshop.

Have the forces of good show up in the same amounts and at the same CR levels as would the forces evil in a good campaign.

A little mustache-twisting villainy and mayhem can make for good fun.

Raum
2009-07-16, 07:48 PM
One of the larger pitfalls I've seen in 'evil' campaigns is simply intraparty conflict. It's often too easy to justify stabbing a friend in the back by simply saying "I'm Evil and I want what he has!" You need some in character method / reason to keep the characters working together. One of the easier ways to accomplish this is to have the players create their characters together at the first session and include personal links & trust in their backgrounds.

Domigorgon
2009-07-16, 07:57 PM
Ah, yeah, that. Thought of it, and so for the testing session the characters are under a Quest spell by their employer. Of course, if we continue playing the evil way, that might not be the best way to deal with in-party scuffles.

So I suppose I'll need them all to be members of a church, or cult, or some such organization. That should make them docile and work for a common cause.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-16, 08:21 PM
A friend of mine described ideas he'd used for an evil campaign once. The premise was that the PCs had all individually already been villains of varying power. Their evil schemes had taken place in different times and in some cases planes from one anothers'. They had all eventually been slain and cast into the abyss, their blackened souls used to fuel the twisted ends of the demons and devils.

An evil god stole their souls away and made them champions. He implanted their souls into the recently-slain bodies of some former inhabitants of a small town. They awoke to darkness and found themselves in a crypt. The god would give them the world if they used their various talents to claim it and bring glory to His name. Of course, they were discouraged from violence against one another.

Their first adventure featured them figuring a way out of the crypt and terrorizing the town.

A more powerful force of Evil making the PCs work together can be a good way to discourage infighting. You may also want to remind them that every great villain needs his trusted lieutenants and good tools can be hard to come by.

obnoxious
sig

Mooch
2009-07-16, 08:22 PM
I am actually in an ongoing campaign we just switched from playing the bad guys (Started at 3 at 24? I think) to the good guys (Started at 4 now at 7).

Basically the world is composted of territories controlled by dragons with one dragon acting as leader on each side and they are in a huge war. So our evil characters killed a few dragons took their lands as leaders and are actively fighting on the front while subvertly trying to take down the evil dragon lord so that we can rule.

Now for our good characters we have just started adventuring out and are on the way to enlist in the war effort but have a ways to go (normal font line solider is around CR20 with commanders being as high at I think 60 or 80) not to mention we are several thousand miles away.

The ultimate goal is to have a showdown with our evil characters in a battle royal to see if you can kill yourself (I think I am not the DM)

Basically having a seriously wicked ruler able to come down and kill your evil party kept us in line, evil selfish people are going to watch out for their own skin just let your party know this.

Evil:
Pevishan Sorc/spell siphon/fatespinner/archmage/other PRC
wind elemental crusader/knight but died so now a rogue/shadow dancer/assassin
inccubus sorc with a prismatic dragon familiar (wtf I know)
half-dragon quissian fighter/weapon master/blade master

Good:
Human Saint Cleric/Warweaver(reflavored for divine)
thri-kreen warblade/crusader
gnome beguiler
elf bard

tiercel
2009-07-17, 05:27 AM
Yeah one primary issue is intraparty conflict -- you need a reason for a bunch of Evil people to *want* to work together (or, you have to all want/enjoy PvP action).

Another, lesser issue is level -- a low level Evil party won't necessarily play a *lot* differently than a low level Good party, because you still have to buckle under to anyone more powerful than you (which at low level, is pretty much everyone, including town guards). At higher levels, you can start flaunting your power and doing and taking anything you want without fear of repercussion... wait, how is that different from a normal D&D campaign again? ;)

Seriously though, if you/your players want to play Evil you need to ask what you/they want to get out of the experience. What are your gameplay goals, and what are your characters' goals in being Evil? (And also... how Evil/dark is the game going to go? Are you going to descend to depravities which could get squicky for some players?)

Night Monkey
2009-07-17, 05:47 AM
Ah, yeah, that. Thought of it, and so for the testing session the characters are under a Quest spell by their employer. Of course, if we continue playing the evil way, that might not be the best way to deal with in-party scuffles.

So I suppose I'll need them all to be members of a church, or cult, or some such organization. That should make them docile and work for a common cause.

My limited DM experience does, in fact, have something to say on the matter of putting the party under geas/quest.

Don't do it.

Even if it's only very temporary, it feels like the railroadiest thing in the world to the players. It ended up being one of the reasons I ditched an entire campaign.

I think to discourage party members killing eachother for loot, you simply need to appeal to their self-interest. Sure, more stuff is useful for you, but not as useful as an ally who can use that stuff. As long as each person believes that co-operation is in their own best interests, it should be fine.

Party infighting, in terms of people being at eachother's throats and threatening to kill eachother for the slightest offence, is however a perfectly natural aspect of evil roleplay. If the party always feels like its only just hanging together by a thread, whilst still actually hanging together, then I think the evil game is going well.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-17, 10:13 AM
You could always nick a page out of Traveller's book?
Work out some way, random if necessary, to tie the characters backstories together. Get them to pick out one player in the group each who is a particularly close ally, or so on. maybe two others each who they have, at some point in the past, helped or been helped by in their endeavours.
Give them small bonuses for choosing the ally and contacts, related to the events that brought them together. (probably in the form of +2 bonuses to a relevant skill)

Emphasise the fact that Evil can have friends, allies, lovers etc as well.

You could also take the other part of that idea, and give them, or let them in some way pick out existing 'rivals' or an outright nemesis.

If your party is tempted to play up to the chaotic-stupid side of evil, it may help to lean away from the black-and-white view of morality.

The party is Evil, yes. But their main foes do not have to be Good. If they are in something more resembling a blood-war situation, with Good just happening to sometimes get in the way, it may keep the stereotypes away a little.

aivanther
2009-07-17, 10:26 AM
3rded on the intraparty conflict warning. You need to create a reason for them to work together, or simply have everyone agree up front not to PvP, period, but you may not be able to get the agreement there depending on the players.

I would also suggest that mayhem running is fun, but only in moderation. To keep it limited build in consequences to it to keep your end up of having fun with a plot. You know, the Paladin-king and his temple allies come and throw them in prison after taking all their stuff. Things like that. Warn them ahead of time, though, that there will be consequences if caught doing evil things without sufficient protection or guile.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-17, 10:33 AM
3rded on the intraparty conflict warning. You need to create a reason for them to work together, or simply have everyone agree up front not to PvP, period, but you may not be able to get the agreement there depending on the players.

I would also suggest that mayhem running is fun, but only in moderation. To keep it limited build in consequences to it to keep your end up of having fun with a plot. You know, the Paladin-king and his temple allies come and throw them in prison after taking all their stuff. Things like that. Warn them ahead of time, though, that there will be consequences if caught doing evil things without sufficient protection or guile.

OR

If they start killing and burning, the local Theives Guild takes exception to this unnecessary chaos, and sets some assassins on them.
The Yuan-Ti cult that is secretly running the entire town through the careful use of magic, drugs, and general sneakyness, sets their agents on them, to bring them kicking and screaming onto their altar.
Seeing the Disruption in the towns defences, as they try to stop the party, a Gnoll warband decides that the time is right to attack and destroy anyone and everything in the town, including the PC's, but also every single other creature there.

Etc.

Basically, it might not be as simple as 'Evil will be punished with Good', rather 'Stupid and/or Wantonly Destructive will draw attention and powerfull responses'.

gnomas
2009-07-17, 10:56 AM
I've never run an evil campaign but it's on my to-do list, so let us know how it goes!

my friend and i have played evil characters in a mostly neutral, partly good party. it's likely the players are going to form goals of their own outside of the party's goals, and make allegiances within the group.

you're going to have a very different game depending on wheather the party if lawful, neutral, or chaotic.

i would make sure you agree on acceptable behaviour before the game.

Telonius
2009-07-17, 11:28 AM
Yeah one primary issue is intraparty conflict -- you need a reason for a bunch of Evil people to *want* to work together (or, you have to all want/enjoy PvP action).


This. Remember, Lex Luthor's superpower was being able to get the Legion of Doom to not kill each other long enough to attack the Justice League.