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View Full Version : If you were only going to use 8 classes in a game, which ones would be legal? (3.5.)



Tempest Fennac
2009-07-17, 04:50 AM
When I first joined this forum, I remember 1 person mentioning some voting on another forum regarding which 8 classes should be used in D&D if only 8 were legal and the main goal was for the classes to be balanced (I can't remember anything about the voting other then that Bards were the most powerful casting class). I remembered this the other day and I'm curious about which classes other people would pick if they could only choose 8.

I'd pick Warblades, Crusaders, Swordsages (due to their power level and the fact that they cover several melee warrior archtypes), Rogues (due to the need for a skill monkey), Wizards as the main Arcanists), Cloistered Clerics (Crusaders handle the Holy Warrior roll well, so these guys can handle the Priest roll), Shapeshifter Druids with Spontaneous Divine Casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) (for the nature priest/guardian roll, and because it would have different casting mechanics), and Bards (for the sake of having a Jack-Of-All-Trades class).

My aim was to provide a variety of classes while trying to keep things reasonably balanced (my only problem with my list is that it ignores archery to a large degree, but I was thinking that a feat which lets a ToB class use maneneuvers from 1 any Discipline (except for Setting Sun) with Ranged weapons would help with that).

Eldariel
2009-07-17, 05:01 AM
I'd go:
Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader

Those singlehandedly cover just about any martial character you might want to create; that is gold. Fighters, Monks, Rangers, etc. just don't cut it.

Then:
Psion
Psychic Warrior
Ardent


The last two are hard and I'd be inclined to turn to homebrew here. A wilderness-oriented character is definitely wanted but at the same time, Druid would pretty much wreck any semblance of balance in this system and Ranger doesn't really work well with the ToB based martial system as written.

Spirit Shaman is probably closest to appropriate here, although Scout could sorta work out too. In the end I'd probably pick neither and leave this slot open for homebrew.

If I had to go with written classes as written, I'd add:
Binder
Totemist (this sorta has the feral wilderness-flavour too)

as different takes to utilizing outside entities in combat. This unfortunately leaves the role of dedicated skill monkey pretty untouched, but I can't bring myself to add Factotum without maneuvers and with his arcane casting to this harmony, nor can I rationalize using Bard or Rogue. I guess it befalls Swordsage (just give him Trapfinding or even better, remove Trapfinding entirely) to be the Rogue. Then again, the class is suited fine for that role.

Eloel
2009-07-17, 05:02 AM
Warblade
Swordsage
Shapeshifter Druid
Favored Soul
Sorcerer
Psychic Rogue
Beguiler
Warlock


Why? Because I think they're around the same power, and there's a GREAT deal of versatility (as in, what people could get to play) in there. Did I mention balance?

Here's another list that could be used

Wizard
Archivist
Artificer
Cleric
Druid
Warblade
Factotum
Psion

Horrors on the power, yet still quite balanced, but they're like +2 CR to 1st list :) (except Warblade, but nothing I can do on that)

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-17, 05:10 AM
Commoner, commoner, commoner, commoner, commoner, commoner, commoner, commoner. My players would do it, too.

obnoxious
sig

Eldariel
2009-07-17, 05:26 AM
Hey! Choosing the same class multiple times is illegal! In America!

Oslecamo
2009-07-17, 05:27 AM
It's official: some people like a class just because of the funny names of it's abilities.:smalltongue:

Edge
2009-07-17, 05:28 AM
Warblade
Crusader
Swordsage
Spirit Shaman
Warlock
Rogue
Psion
Psychic Warrior

Totally does away with the problem of CoDzilla, as well as the problems of full casters - the Spirit Shaman's requirement of two casting stats pulls their power back nicely, I believe.

Dhavaer
2009-07-17, 05:29 AM
Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, Wu Jen, Duskblade, Psion, Psychic Warrior, maybe Ardent.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-17, 05:32 AM
Were you refering to the names of ToB Maneuvers, Oslecamo? (I tend to ignore a lot of those due to prefering to focus on what they do rather then how poor the names are. :smalltongue:)

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-17, 05:37 AM
Were you refering to the names of ToB Maneuvers, Oslecamo? (I tend to ignore a lot of those due to prefering to focus on what they do rather then how poor the names are. :smalltongue:)

QFT. I fall alseep more or less in the middle of Girallion Wildmill, and Exorcism of Steel is really retarded.

But you can call them Lacerate and Devastate easily.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-17, 05:57 AM
Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, Incarnate, Factotum, Bard, Favored Soul and Sorcerer(using Intelligence for extra spell slots but Charisma for spell DCs).

Martial/Martial/Martial/Jack/Jack/Jack/Full Divine/Full Arcane.

Eldan
2009-07-17, 05:59 AM
Hmm. Depends on the flavour of the campaign, really. For classic style DnD:

Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader. Reasons have been mentioned.
Warlock for the Arcane angle.
Beguiler because I love the enchanter/illusionist archetype, working around enemies instead of slaying them.
Rogue for skillmonkey and sneakiness.
Spirit Shaman for nature casting.

Hmm. These are the ones that would have to be included. But I only have half the archetypes covered... it needs a clerical caster, so perhaps the favoured soul, even though it's stronger than most others. I'd also like to have a necromancer (Dread Necro), some class that studies it's spells (similar to wizard, but not as much stronger than everyone else) and a nature-type fighter.
So, I could perhaps do it in 10 classes, but 8 is getting difficult.

ex cathedra
2009-07-17, 06:17 AM
Hm.

I'm going to have to mimic most of the posters before me, and start with Crusaders, Swordsages, and Warblades. They're terrifically well made, fun to play, and at the power level I feel is most appropriate. The next five are hard, however.
Factotum. Rogues have to deal with ToB being in many ways superior. Bards... eh. Hard to give them an appropriate power level, so I'll skip including them. Sublime Chord makes things difficult for me.
Psychic Warror. Ah, here we are. A melee class with a different power source that, because of psionics, can scale moderately well when compared to ToB.
Psion. Full caster number 1. Much less well supported than Wiz/Sorc, which is fairly good. I would house-rule away things metamorphosis and it's ilk from all power/spell lists, as well.
Divine is hard, but I think I'll go with Favored Souls. or Archivists. Cloistered Clerics and Clerics both seem a bit too powerful, as do wildshape druids. I'm not very fond of FSs, but they do atleast seem to be at a more reasonable power level. Archivists are more powerful, but I might simply include them due to how much I prefer them over Favored Souls.
And this is probably the hardest part. Full arcane; I'm just going to go Sorcerer and house-rule their spell list to a slightly more reasonable level.

JellyPooga
2009-07-17, 06:26 AM
Barbarian - Fighter (Brute)
Swashbuckler - Fighter (Finesse)
Hexblade - Fighter/Arcanist
Warlock - Arcanist (Blaster)
Bard - Arcanist/Skill Monkey/Buffer
Scout - Skill Monkey (replaces both Rogue and Ranger)
Ninja - Skill Monkey
Spirit Shaman - Divine (replaces the Cleric role)

This selection covers (as far as I'm concerned) all the bases at least twice and no one class is exceptionally more powerful than the others (with, perhaps, the exception of Spirit Shaman which is the only one to get access to 9th level spells);

Front-Line Combat: Barbarian, Hexblade or Swashbuckler
2nd-Line Combat: Any of the others (they've all got 3/4 BAB...)
Skills: Bard, Ninja, Scout
Blaster: Warlock, Spirit Shaman
Misc. Spellcasting: Bard, Hexblade, Spirit Shaman
Heal-Bot: Bard, Spirit Shaman

"Why Ninja and not Rogue?" I hear you cry; because Rogue and Scout are too similar in style and Ninja gives a little twist inasmuch as it's not so much of a combat class...more of an assassin with a few tricks that make people go "whuh?", which is how I see Rogues.

Using these classes, I'd also create Feats along the lines of Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaw to allow certain abilites to stack when multiclassing, like the Spirit Shamans Chastise Spirits and the Hexblades Curse.

Indon
2009-07-17, 07:02 AM
I'd go Fighter, Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Paladin, Rogue, Scout, Warlock, Warmage.

Optionally, replace Swashbuckler with Monk.


Hey! Choosing the same class multiple times is illegal! In America!

Screw the rules, we have D&D!

Eloel
2009-07-17, 07:16 AM
I'd go Fighter, Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Paladin, Rogue, Scout, Warlock, Warmage.

Optionally, replace Swashbuckler with Monk.

Everyone starts crying simultaneously as there're no magic items, since there's noone with the magic to create the magic items.

Ok, almost no magic items. Pally spells and Evocation spells still exist.

Indon
2009-07-17, 07:21 AM
Everyone starts crying simultaneously as there's no utility spells. None. Including harmless stuff like Feather Fall.

That's the idea.

The major source of imbalance in the game is utility spell usage.

So if we only have eight classes, we can all either go with all full casters of some flavor, or none.

Of course, the difference between the stronger full casters and the weaker full casters is frequently magnitudes of power - and the difference between strong noncasters and weaker noncasters tends to not be so big.

You want to climb down something safely, use a rope or something - or climb, for that matter. The game's not called "Dungeons and Spells Should Do Everything For You."

kamikasei
2009-07-17, 07:22 AM
Everyone starts crying simultaneously as there're no magic items, since there's noone with the magic to create the magic items.

That's what the Warlock is for.

Yora
2009-07-17, 07:23 AM
My campaign does have only 9 classes:

Barbarian
Bard
Druid
Fighter
Psion (arcane and called witch)
Ranger
Rogue
Shaman
Wizard

Malacode
2009-07-17, 07:26 AM
Hmm... Rogue, Warlock, Dread Necromancer, Warblade, Favoured Soul, Barbarian, Duskblade, Totemist. Only limited casting options, no access to the really scary high level spells, and melee/mundane classes with a bit of oomph and out of combat utility.
Dread Necro could be replaced by any full casting, spontaneous class that has a pre-determined spell list and it'd still all work.
I think, with multiclassing, that almost any character archetype is possible with these 8, and there are a lot of synergistic combos that are easy to fit into a character.

Thrawn183
2009-07-17, 07:29 AM
Favored Soul
Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader
Knight
Ninja
Scout
Ranger

kabof
2009-07-17, 07:38 AM
Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Psion, Factotum and Sublime Way Ranger (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=738077).

One tier 2, six tier 3. The last slot would be left for some homebrew. Mainly because there's no more tier 2-3 class that can heal within the 2 "spell" systems that I'm inclined to use.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-17, 07:45 AM
Rogue
Unarmed Swordsage
Favored Soul
Bard
Ranger
Knight
Wu Jen
Swashbuckler

quick_comment
2009-07-17, 07:50 AM
Duskblade, Warblade, Crusader, Favored Soul, Ardent, Sorcerer, Swordsage, Factotum

Telonius
2009-07-17, 07:53 AM
Rogue - Skillmonkey
Barbarian - Meatshield
Sorcerer - Arcanist
Bard - Arcanist/Skillmonkey
Knight - Meatshield
Scout - Tactical
Favored Soul - Healer
Warlock - Arcanist/Tactical

I really, really wanted to put Warblade down. But with this array of classes, it would be a bit on the powerful side, and I already have two meatshields. Barbarian is probably the best-designed class in Core, and sometimes players really just want to go "Hulk Smash!" No way am I getting rid of that. And Knight is an actual meatshield (as in drawing aggro), another extremely well-designed class, and imo is what the Paladin should have been.

EDIT: Also, this is for the classes as written. If houserules were allowed, I'd use Cleric in place of Favored Soul. Clerics in my game are all Cloistered, Divine Power is no longer on the normal Cleric spell list (it's still in the War Domain), and Divine Metamagic is forbidden.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-17, 07:56 AM
Is that the Shaman class from Oriental Adventures, or is it a different class, Yora?

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 07:58 AM
Make Trapfinding a feat.

Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader for already mentioned reasons.

Psion, Bard (allow all three of the UA variants), Shugenja, Binder to cover casters - Divine Bard makes an excellent priest.

Ranger (Wildshape and Urban variants allowed), add Pick Lock to its skill list. Covers skill monkeys and wilderness junkies.

ErrantX
2009-07-17, 10:36 AM
I would use Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, Rogue, Scout, Cloistered Cleric (use the Plant and Animal domains for druids), Wizard, and Bard.

-X

Lamech
2009-07-17, 10:43 AM
Hmm...
Spellcaster (UA) - for all your casting needs.
Psion -
Psychic Warrior -
ToB classes -
Warrior (UA) - people who don't like ToB
Adept - for the 1 CR kobolds

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-17, 10:46 AM
Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, Binder, Shadowcaster, modified Truenamer

oxinabox
2009-07-17, 11:07 AM
just to be annoying...
Acane:

Wizard: Prepared generalist
Sorceer: unprepared generlest (less than wizard)
Bard: skill monkey - prepared specilist (compaired to above two) - and light warrior

Divine:
Arcivist: Prepared generalist - medium warrior
Cleric: Prepared generalist ( much less than archivist or wizard) - heavy warrior
Favored soul: unprepared generalist



Warlock: unprepared unresrtained specificist (and buildable into a counter mage)
Mystic Theurge (PrC): Combo maker

BTW: this is a joke.
But then again how often do you see parties where everyone want to be the mage? and noone want to be the fighter, that stops the mage getting dead?

Intersently in my campain the pure fighter does more damage then the mage, or the sneak...
Then again when i'm playing the fighter i do none. that's what you get for weilding daggers...

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 11:13 AM
But then again how often do you see parties where everyone want to be the mage? and noone want to be the fighter, that stops the mage getting dead?

Just about never, but I play with a lot of people who love to optimize but hate to powergame (meaning that they don't like using the big 5) and the ones who don't optimize generally think melee with some magic is cooler than the stodgy mage sitting in the back row.

Also, incoming swamp of explanations for how all caster parties do not need meat shields.

John Campbell
2009-07-17, 11:24 AM
Eight classes?

Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Bard.

As per AD&D 2.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-17, 11:26 AM
Eight classes?

Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Bard.

As per AD&D 2.

Except two of those classes don't even exist in 3rd Edition and 3.5.

EDIT: Also, you forgot Illusionist.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-17, 11:26 AM
Eight classes?

Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, and Bard.

As per AD&D 2.

If we're choosing pre-3e classes, I'd go with Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Magic-User, Assassin, Cleric, Druid, Monk myself, as per AD&D 1e.

FMArthur
2009-07-17, 11:32 AM
Crusader \
Warblade - The good melee trio, which can customize to fit most melee archetypes
Swordsage /
Psion - balanced, fun caster with a lot of variety; can customize to fit many caster archetypes
Favored Soul - The buffer, healer, and backup mage
Dragonfire Adept - Your all-day blaster / partial magician
Beguiler - sneaky caster, primary skillmonkey
Rogue - sneaky combatant, primary skillmonkey

I think that covers everything but the "nature-lover" role. Good riddance, I say.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-17, 11:43 AM
Fighter
Expert
Adept
Monk
Aristocrat
Bard
Paladin
Ranger

OK, not serious, but I think it'd be...interesting.

John Campbell
2009-07-17, 12:01 PM
Except two of those classes don't even exist in 3rd Edition and 3.5.

Yeah, that was kind of my point.


EDIT: Also, you forgot Illusionist.

If I'd let the Illusionist in, all the specialist Mages would've wanted in!

I don't really consider the specialists as separate classes, anyway. They differ less from a generalist Mage than, say, the Druid does from the basic Cleric. The rules for them are right in the basic Mage section. Only the Illusionist even gets its own section, and it just reiterates what it says in the Mage section, with all the blanks filled in.

FMArthur
2009-07-17, 12:02 PM
Fighter
Expert
Adept
Monk
Aristocrat
Bard
Paladin
Ranger

OK, not serious, but I think it'd be...interesting.

I don't see anything interesting about a Bard, Fighter and Paladin-only game, which that would be. :smallwink:

woodenbandman
2009-07-17, 12:05 PM
Totemist, Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, Factotum, Bard, Psion, Psychic Warrior.

I decided to drop binder in favor of bard, because Factotum and Bard do Jack of all trades better than a binder does (not combat-wise, mind you), and everyone needs a buff monkey. There's only so much a factotum can do.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-17, 01:18 PM
I don't see anything interesting about a Bard, Fighter and Paladin-only game, which that would be. :smallwink:

You don't want to re-enact Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

chiasaur11
2009-07-17, 01:29 PM
You don't want to re-enact Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

So, Tim would be an Adept?

mikeejimbo
2009-07-17, 01:45 PM
I don't see anything interesting about a Bard, Fighter and Paladin-only game, which that would be. :smallwink:

Hey now, I'd play an Expert. It's probably the class I am in real life. :smalltongue:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-17, 01:55 PM
So, Tim would be an Adept?

Nope, a bard with Fiery Burst and pyrotechnics.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-17, 02:15 PM
Beguiler, Warmage, Warlock, Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, Favored Soul, PhB II variant Druid

specialty casting + ToB.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-17, 02:26 PM
Shneekey, have you heard of Dread Necromancers? I'm curious due to how I'd expect them to be a good fit for what you wanted with your list.

Morty
2009-07-17, 02:28 PM
I'd use the core classes, but replace monk with some neat non-core class. Classes from splatbooks are nice to have, but optional.

Indon
2009-07-17, 02:32 PM
I'd use the core classes, but replace monk with some neat non-core class. Classes from splatbooks are nice to have, but optional.

There's more than 8 core classes. You'll have to outright exclude a few.

Siosilvar
2009-07-17, 02:36 PM
If we're choosing pre-3e classes, I'd go with Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Magic-User, Assassin, Cleric, Druid, Monk myself, as per AD&D 1e.

Cleric, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Fighter, Magic-User, Thief.

Yes, I know that's only 7 classes.

Morty
2009-07-17, 02:38 PM
There's more than 8 core classes. You'll have to outright exclude a few.

Hm. I sort of assumed such a thread would include choosing as many classes as there's classes in core... in case of only 8 classes though, I'd use all core classes except for monk, sorcerer and either paladin or bard.

RTGoodman
2009-07-17, 02:42 PM
Melee Beatstick: Barbarian, Warblade
Divine Healer: Cloistered Cleric
Divine Beatstick/Healer: Crusader OR Paladin (not sure which)
Utility/Control Arcanist: Wizard
Blasty/Damage Arcanist: Warlock
Sneak/Skill Guy: Factotum
Sneaky Mage: Beguiler

Ends up with three arcane types, two divine ones, and three mundane/martial ones. Doesn't try to balance everything (i.e., still has Wizard instead of the more focused casters), but covers necessary roles in a couple of ways each, provides some variety, and can cover most character archetypes.

Blackfang108
2009-07-17, 02:51 PM
Warblades, Crusaders, Swordsages, Binders, Shadowcasters, Totemists, Soulborn, and Incarnate.

Someone on the forums once mentioned wanting ot try a game with just those classes. I've wanted to since.

Gralamin
2009-07-17, 03:01 PM
Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader - Tome of Battle is awesome
Binder, Shadowcaster - Tome of Magic stuff
Psion, Psychic Warrior -Psionics!
Incarnate - Incarnum, also doesn't invade into Psychic Warrior niche.

arguskos
2009-07-17, 03:07 PM
Hmm... 8 classes eh? Well, not using my own homebrew, here's my list.

Binder
Fighter (with fixes)
Monk (with fixes)
Spirit Shaman
Cloistered Cleric
Rogue
Sorcerer
Something else, not sure what.

I'd also be using the Prestige Bard, Paladin, and Ranger.

Knaight
2009-07-17, 03:11 PM
The generic UA classes.
Warblade
Warlock
Binder
Psion
Psychic Warrior

Cover the basics, get psionics in as an alternative, some alternative magic, and Tome of Battle for melee types.

Ernir
2009-07-17, 03:41 PM
Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade - a melee guy for every occasion.

Favoured Soul, Psion - the blaster and the healbot.

Wildshape Ranger, Factotum, and a homebrewed archer class - for the hippie, the skillmonkey, and the archer.



Should fit in power tier 3 - save for the Psion and the Favoured Soul.

Flickerdart
2009-07-17, 04:06 PM
Truenamer, Soulknife, Monk, Fighter, CW Samurai, Ninja, Paladin, Adept. Prepare to be underwhelmed.

Knaight
2009-07-17, 04:16 PM
So a bunch of underpowered classes, but then you put in the overpowered brokenness that is the Soul Knife? Let me explain the flaws in this.

Fact: The weapon progression of the Soulknife lets them catch up to the fighter. Then they get a free +4 in special abilities. BROKEN

Fact: The soulknife can affect mental stats. This lets it exploit weaknesses in monsters other classes can't. The adept can do this as well. But the soulknife can do this infinity times per day. BROKEN.

Fact: The soulknife shows up in the Expanded Psionics handbook. Everyone knows the Expanded Psionics handbook is broken, and a poorly build psion can utterly trounce a planar shepard that abuses time. Where does that leave the soulknife? BROKEN.

Fact: The soulknife gets bonus damage. So does the ninja. But the ninja has a lot of restrictions on when they can use it. In addition the soulknife gets d8 damage, and the ninja d6. d8 is better than d6. BROKEN

Fact: The soulknife cannot have its weapon taken from it. That means that when everyone else is stripped of weapons, the soulknife isn't. In addition, they get a ranged attack. BROKEN

In conclusion, you might as well bring in the Warlock, with infinite spells per day. The soulknife is that broken.

Oh and monks are high power too. Ever hear of Joker Monks? Partially charged wands? Exactly.

GreyMantle
2009-07-17, 04:37 PM
Assuming homebrew is allowed, the Races of War Fighter, Knight, Samurai, and Barbarian, the Rogue, the Cleric, the Druid, and the Wizard.

If no homebrew, the Crusader, the Warblade, the Swordsage, the Beguiler, the Dread Necromancer, the Wildshape Variant Ranger, the Bard, and the Duskblade.

Healing would just be handled with glo sticks.

Oh, and Knaight, Hilarious Sarcasm is Hilarious

Knaight
2009-07-17, 04:41 PM
I try.

Can I sig that?

Xenogears
2009-07-17, 05:51 PM
Hmmmm based purely on fluff value I'd say:

Some kinda mix of Battle Dancer and Monk
Some kinda mix of Barbarian and Fighter
Some kinda mix of Rogue and Factotum
Warmage
Bard
Some kind of healbot
thats about it really.......

PLUN
2009-07-17, 06:01 PM
Oooh... this sounds fun.

Bard
Ranger
Paladin
Fighter
Sorceror (with a few tweaks)
Rogue
Monk
Barbarian

Maybe bulk out the divine healing magic and spell lists to make healing more readily distributed amongst the Rangers/Paladins of the part, make up for the dedicated divine caster vaccum in the setting.

Mad Wizard
2009-07-17, 06:02 PM
One thing I'm noticing as I look through these is the lack of an "archer" type class on people's lists. Is there any archer-type class that cam match ToB classes in terms of power?

arguskos
2009-07-17, 06:03 PM
One thing I'm noticing as I look through these is the lack of an "archer" type class on people's lists. Is there any archer-type class that cam match ToB classes in terms of power?
Short answer: No.

Long answer: No, and there isn't any official archer base class anywhere in WotC materials.

The best you can do is Soulbow (a soulknife PrC) or Zen Archery (a feat) on a high-Wis character.

Mad Wizard
2009-07-17, 06:10 PM
Ah, I didn't think of Zen Archery clerics. Thanks.

Dark Herald
2009-07-17, 06:25 PM
And I thought this was going to be a complaint about 4.0

lsfreak
2009-07-17, 06:27 PM
Swordsage, warblade, crusader, as almost everyone else has said. My biggest problem with them would be that they still lack out-of-combat utility. I might drop or merge one of them and pick up beguilers instead.
Binder. Incredible fluff, fills lots of roles.
Psion (reflavored). Fills the arcanist role without being as broken as sorcerers.
Spirit shaman, or archivists. Archivists would be much less powerful without many of the tricks to get all the arcane spells into their repertoire (like domains).
Incarnates. Tons of fluff, not too powerful, can fill different roles.
Homebrewed scout/ranger that's basically a swift hunter, for archery.

Would be a lower-magic setting with magic items being rare and powerful.

Indon
2009-07-17, 09:06 PM
One thing I'm noticing as I look through these is the lack of an "archer" type class on people's lists. Is there any archer-type class that cam match ToB classes in terms of power?

I put Warlock on my list (which is basically an archer but with a few magic tricks too). Blasting-casters are pretty archer-like, too, and I had one of those.

erikun
2009-07-17, 11:24 PM
It's nice to see all the Psion love in the thread. :smallredface:

Myself? I'd probably run a psionic-heavy campaign. Probably with Psychic Rogues and Soulknives getting some of the Monk stuff. Possibly even the Divine Mind, seeing as how there wouldn't be any clerics anymore.

ideasmith
2009-07-18, 12:00 AM
Fighter

Hunter (ranger with magical and some combat-related abilities replaced with sneak attack and trap-related abilities.

Madcap (Adapted from the Pirate class from Spirosblaak by Green Ronin Publishing)

Mastermind (Adapted from the Noble class from Fading Suns D20 by Holistic Design, Inc.)

Rogue

Specialist (Adapted from the Specialist class from Experts V.3.5 by Skirmisher Publishing)

Spellbinder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Spellbinder_(3.5e_Class)) (Add access to Druid spells)

Unfledged (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Unfledged_(3.5e_Class))

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-18, 12:42 AM
That's why I suggested making a feat which lets a ToB class use Maneuvers with ranged weapons, Mad Wizard (I decided it would be the easiest solution). Is that because of the number of classes which people had to pick, Dark Herald?

AstralFire
2009-07-18, 01:09 AM
One thing I'm noticing as I look through these is the lack of an "archer" type class on people's lists. Is there any archer-type class that cam match ToB classes in terms of power?

Use an archery discipline. Homebrew, but a few are quite good.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-18, 01:59 AM
Short answer: No.

Long answer: No, and there isn't any official archer base class anywhere in WotC materials.

Technically, there isn't any base class that devotes specifically to archery in exclusion to everything else. If you consider an archery specialty and some melee action, you can consider the Ranger and Scout to be meant as archery specialists, Fighter with a bunch of feats devoted to archery, and Arcane Archer and Order of the Bow Initiate in case of PrCs.

It's just that Rangers also have the Two Weapon Fighting combat style and the Scout's Skirmish works with melee weapons (although it makes far more use of Spring Attack than others)

If I were to add my choices, those would be:
--Warblade: pretty much replaces the Fighter in every point. Weapon Aptitude would remain, but it wouldn't grant "equivalency" in Fighter levels. Also, the bonus feats would be the Fighter feats. Perhaps replace some of the flavor abilities (but not the capstone) with more bonus feats. That would be the "Fighter".

--Unarmed Swordsage or Monk: torn on this one. Unarmed Swordsage is often placed as the replacement for the Monk, and one of the most advocated changes. I could certainly move away with some Monk abilities, but I'd be missing the flurry, the Stunning Fist special progression, the limited bonus feats progression, the chance to get Evasion at a ridiculously low level, and the immunities. Perhaps add that to Unarmed Swordsage and call it a Monk? That way, the USwordsage would have sorta real class features. Perhaps in replacement of the discipline focus, and make those actual feats for a Blade Meditation feat chain?

--Paladin or Crusader: this is what makes me real torn. I'm heavily inclined to just say "Knight Vindicator", and add some of the Paladin levels to it. I respect and endorse Paladin spellcasting however limited it may be, but the Crusader has a distinctive feel of holy warrior as well. What makes it most difficult is that Crusader is mostly inclined as a Paladin replacement, but my favorite class is Paladin (and the D&D version of the Paladin in 3.5 is usually the bar by which I measure the rest of the Paladin classes in every single game around anywhere)

Perhaps neither of them. Just get what a gestalt Paladin/Crusader with the abilities of Knight Vindicator would get as part of the late-game progression.

--Cloistered Cleric: as is, except for the free Knowledge domain. Make it a bonus domain instead.

--Wizard: why throw away what's useful, anyways? Forget it's broken, just raise the bar of everything to the level of the Wizard and that's it. Instantly balanced game.

And don't tell me that a Wizard-level game is broken. A Solar Exalted, elder vampire, elder werewolf...heck, even a Mage with Paradox is ultimately most broken than a fledging Wizard/Incantatrix or Archmage.

--Rogue: pretty difficult to throw a staple of the game away anyway. They prove to be successful on most things, except creating new worlds and the like. They can create thieves' guilds and control the seedy criminal world of the formed world, so I don't see that as troubling.

--Psion: add Psionics into the game. 3.5 was where Psionics gained near-equal respect compared to the big favorites of Arcane Magic and Divine Magic.

--Factotum: just because. They are the real jacks-of-all-trades, and at a high level they may just simply become masters of all anyways.

I feel sorry that Bards, Rangers, Hexblades, Duskblades, Divine Minds, Psychic Warriors, Spellthieves, and any other hybrid class I might be forgetting. I love hybrid classes (the biggest of all being the Paladin), and I feel sad that they have to lose their seat to the full guys. Also, I wish I didn't had to use all ToB classes, but they are too complete not to be placed.

So, to recap and rename:
Warriors (Warblades), Monks (unarmed Swordsages eating the old Monk), Paladin/Blackguard/Holy Liberator/Avenger/etc. (name based on alignment, basically a gestalt Paladin/Crusader with most of the abilities of Knight Vindicator), Priests (Cloistered Clerics with no Knowledge domain), Wizards, Psions and Factotums.

RTGoodman
2009-07-18, 02:30 AM
Use an archery discipline. Homebrew, but a few are quite good.

Indeed. I included Warlock on my list as basically an Archer anyway (I was trying to decide between that a Warmage, but thought Warlock was a more unique option), but I'd allow homebrew disciplines, probably. (I think Fax_Celestis's Falling Star is the archery one I liked best, but I'd have to search around to look at the others.)

arguskos
2009-07-18, 02:48 AM
Technically, there isn't any base class that devotes specifically to archery in exclusion to everything else. If you consider an archery specialty and some melee action, you can consider the Ranger and Scout to be meant as archery specialists, Fighter with a bunch of feats devoted to archery, and Arcane Archer and Order of the Bow Initiate in case of PrCs.
So, yeah, that'd be why I said "no archery BASE CLASS" (emphasis added). :smalltongue:

Yeah, Ranger and Scout can sorta be archers, but really, archery needs far more than they can give it to be ToB-level, as was requested.

I'm not too terribly pleased that archery got the shaft, but there's always homebrew (some of which is excellent).