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gnomas
2009-07-17, 02:57 PM
i was just reading through the gestalt rules and the book claims that an encounter of party level +1 is good for 4 PCs, and an encounter of party level +2 is good for 4 gestalt PCs. since WotC aren't the best source to listen to when it comes to CR..what do you guys think is a good CR for gestalt encounters?

thanks in advance!

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-17, 02:59 PM
i was just reading through the gestalt rules and the book claims that an encounter of party level +1 is good for 4 PCs, and an encounter of party level +2 is good for 4 gestalt PCs. since WotC aren't the best source to listen to when it comes to CR..what do you guys think is a good CR for gestalt encounters?

thanks in advance!

Depends on the Gestalt. CR "calculation" is bad enough for the normal classes...

Basically, few encounters anywhere near the character's level will pose any problem to a Cloistered Cleric/Wizard, a Psion/Factotum, a Wizard/Factotum, or any number of other incredibly powerful Gestalt combination. A Fighter/Barbarian, on the other hand, may have a good encounter at Level+2. It's guesswork...be ready to weaken/strengthen encounters as appropriate.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-17, 03:14 PM
What's the Gestalt party? Druid//Barbarian, Wizard//Factotum, Artificer//Warblade, Cloistered Cleric//Duskblade/War Weaver is going to handle things far beyond those of, say, a Cleric/Wizard, Barb/Fighter, Rogue/Monk, and Paladin/Fighter.

Talic
2009-07-17, 03:14 PM
Agreed. Challenges are all about monster composition and party composition. Gestalt suffers much more than most from wildly disparate power levels.

Let's compare the following, at level 5:

Wizard 5// Psion 5.

Strengths: Manifests 3rd level powers, Casts Third level spells. Bonus feats, Familiar, Psicrystal.

This means: Very adaptable, while maintaining top-tier powers. Has staying power at lower levels, won't likely run out of spells/powers. Can use psion for damage, leaving wizard for utility, vice-versa, or a blend of the two.

Weaknesses: Weak Reflex/Fort saves, Lower than average HP, character type similar (low skill, same skills, low BAB)

And...

Warlock 5/Rogue 5

Strengths: Invocations, Eldritch Blast, SLA's, Sneak Attack, High Damage Output, excellent skills.

This means: 6d6 blasts all day long. Invocations can force a variety of saves, and, through flanking, you can keep that buff. Can combo into Level 1 HiPS.

Weaknesses: Mid level HD, Mid level BAB, lack of versatility.

And...

Sorceror 5/Paladin 2/Fighter 3 (Armored Caster Variant)

Strengths: Fullcasting, Strong BAB, good HP, Good Saves (through Divine Grace), Bonus Feats.

This means: Excellent Blaster type, with good BAB. Has durability.

Weaknesses: Poor skills, Can't make full use of class features (Med/Hvy Armor or spellcasting)


Note: The above are three different party roles. One is a heavy caster role, another is a skillmonkey type, and the third is a solid Gish. Which is strongest?

Pound for pound? The first, then the third.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 03:18 PM
In general, I find it's best to look at what your players themselves are capable of and make enemies that can match them on several counts, are weaker than them in a few, and stronger in a few others. Vary the ratio for less or more challenging fights. CR guidelines are almost worthless once you get beyond "Tank Fighter, Healer Cleric, Artillery Wizard, Utility Rogue." And even then, there are... glitches. (See: Adamantine Horror.)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-17, 03:22 PM
(See: Adamantine Horror.)

That's less of a glitch and more of a "blue screen of death." :smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-17, 03:39 PM
That's less of a glitch and more of a "blue screen of death." :smallbiggrin:

Technically more of a blackish screen of death (or greenish, if you're referring to its disintegrate ray). Blue would be a cobalt horror. Which would be awesome, but not as lethal.