Create a 4e Class Thread 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Mike_the_Mystic]

Alright, so we're done voting up a 4e Class, now we're going down to the nitty gritty part: Creating the meat and potatoes of a class: Skills, Powers, Paragon Paths, Feats, etc.

Here are the stats we have so far:

Name: Swashbuckler, for Political Reasons.
Power Source: Martial
Role: Controller
Key Abilities: Int, Dex, Cha

Now, we need to do the Skills that the Swashbuckler uses.

[Alteran]

Do you want us to pick 3 skills or something? The top X become class skills?

[mikeejimbo]

Sounds good to me.

History
Diplomacy
Bluff

[Limos]

Class skills, Diplomacy and two of the following

Bluff, Intimidate, Insight, History

[Mike_the_Mystic]

Really we're just throwing out ideas on what the Class skills that Battlemasters can train in are. Much more lax pace than voting.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Insight
Intimidate
Perception
Streetwise
Thievery

-all immediately come to mind.

[i see u]

Bluff
Diplomacy
Intimidate

[Gralamin]

Sounds good to me.

History
Diplomacy
Bluff

Quoted for truth. (IE Count me as these as well)

[RTGoodman]

History
Insight
Perception

Ignore those - if the class name is changed to Swashbuckler, then the following are my votes:

Acrobatics
Bluff
Streetwise

[Mike_the_Mystic]

We're officially changing the name to Shashbuckler. But both Battlemaster and Magnificent Bastard are going to be Paragon Paths. Which Means Battlemaster is going to be more kickass.

[erikun]

Aww, I was kind of rooting for Battlemaster. Reguardless, if the Buckler of Swashes provides better ideas, I'm all for it.

As for skills, Acrobatics immediately comes to mind, as does Bluff. Streetwise is another that seems to fit, as is Intimidate.

Perception and Insight come to mind, although I don't see the Swashbuckler as terribly stealthy - they're flashy and flamboyant, so leave the sneaking to the rogues. Thievery only comes to mind due to the slight of hand tricks, although a Swashbuckler could probably pick a lock when needed.

History and Diplomancy feel less Swashbuckler-ish, but they're good options for someone who wants to play more of a royal duelist or foppish court entertainer, and not confined to a pirate role.


The skills in bold are my suggestions. To state them again:

Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomancy
History
Intimidate
Insight
Perception
Streetwise
Thievery

...possibly making Acrobatics or Bluff manditory, as they are kind of central to the idea.

[KaynDarksbane]

I think the main problem was that some really really didn't want to work on a class named Battlemaster.

Regardless, these are what I'm thinking for skills:

Acrobatics
Athletics
Bluff
Insight
Intimidate
Perception
Streetwise
Thievery

[SwordGoddess]

Aww, I was kind of rooting for Battlemaster. Reguardless, if the Buckler of Swashes provides better ideas, I'm all for it.

As for skills, Acrobatics immediately comes to mind, as does Bluff. Streetwise is another that seems to fit, as is Intimidate.

Perception and Insight come to mind, although I don't see the Swashbuckler as terribly stealthy - they're flashy and flamboyant, so leave the sneaking to the rogues. Thievery only comes to mind due to the slight of hand tricks, although a Swashbuckler could probably pick a lock when needed.

History and Diplomancy feel less Swashbuckler-ish, but they're good options for someone who wants to play more of a royal duelist or foppish court entertainer, and not confined to a pirate role.


The skills in bold are my suggestions. To state them again:

Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomancy
History
Intimidate
Insight
Perception
Streetwise
Thievery

...possibly making Acrobatics or Bluff manditory, as they are kind of central to the idea.

Well thought-out! And, I agree--so consider me casting my vote for this, too. :smallsmile:

[dragoonsgone]

Don't forget build options, need at least 2. One using Int and Dex and other using Int and Cha probably.

My personal idea are the traditional Zorro type that sprang to mind which would be Int and Cha. Using Sword to disable opponents. The other would be an archer aka cartoonish Robin Hood who doesn't kill his enemies but disables them who uses "called shots" to slow enemies by shooting people in the feet and such.

I know, main problem is its alot like a ranger, but right now its just a suggestion. It wouldn't be a nature warrior and wouldn't TWF.

[AgentPaper]

I would say, for build options: Dex and Cha for the more traditional swashbuckler, and then Dex and Int for a more strategic type. The Charisma build would lean a bit towards leader, throwing out more buffs and especially debuffs, while the int side would be a more focused controller build.

The main thing we need to think of, though, is what exactly the class is meant to do. In that interest, we have to look at the various tools available to a controller:

1) Hit multiple targets.
This might be as simple as having a burst effect, but that's probably not something we want to give out too much to a martial class, in the interests of differentiating them from magic users. So, we need to think of different ways for a single attack to affect two or more creatures.

2) Influence enemy decisions.
This is essentially the bread and butter of a true controller. Whether it's helping the enemy decide to attack the defender, or to run somewhere instead of attacking, the controller has to be able to affect the enemy's decisions.

3) Deny specific actions.
Similar to #2, but more direct, is outright denying the enemy from certain actions, either by blocking terrain, making someone invisible to them, and so on, but this is a more powerful effect that goes beyond nudging your enemies the way you want towards straight-up telling them what they can and can't do.

4) Reduce enemy effectiveness.
De-buffs, plain and simple. The less powerful an enemy is, the less you have to worry about him coming in to smack you.

5) Avoid harm.
Easy enough, you can't control if you're dead, and this will be especially important for a martial controller, since he's most likely going to be toe-to-toe with his puppe...er, enemies.

Each ability we make should do one or more of these things. However, before we actually start making abilities, I think we should think about the mechanics of the character. In the interest of not just making another normal class that functions just on the various powers, I vote that we give this guy a special mechanic. Perhaps something akin to combo points? Then, instead of encounter and daily powers, you get "Combo Moves" and "Finishers"

The at-will powers would grant combo points, combo moves (encounter powers) require a certain amount of combo points to use, but don't consume them, and finishers (daily powers) require a good number of combo points, and use them all up in the process.

(Note that "Combo Points", "Combo Moves", and "Finishers" are all just things I pulled out of my arse, and should probably be replaced when we have the feel of the system more, but for now we should figure out how it would work in the first place)

I also say that we should probably just agree to re-vote on names and such after getting the ground-work done for the class. We can come up with names as we work on it. (For example, I'm now liking the idea of "Blade Dancer" or some similar name) Swashbuckler will do for a working title at least, though.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Actually, a build with both Dex and Int would be a waste. The builds should be: Battlemaster's Dex/Cha and Magnificent Bastard's Int/Cha.

[KaynDarksbane]

Actually, a build with both Dex and Int would be a waste. The builds should be: Battlemaster's Dex/Cha and Magnificent Bastard's Int/Cha.
You mean like a Devoted Cleric (Cha/Wis), a War Wizard (Dex/Int) or a Rageblood Barbarian (Str/Con)? Overlapping Stats shouldn't be a problem. It weakens the character in ways, forcing us to balance them with that in mind, but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I suppose I could get behind Charisma being the main stat, but I personally think Dex fits better.

[mikeejimbo]

You mean like a Devoted Cleric (Cha/Wis), a War Wizard (Dex/Int) or a Rageblood Barbarian (Str/Con)? Overlapping Stats shouldn't be a problem. It weakens the character in ways, forcing us to balance them with that in mind, but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I suppose I could get behind Charisma being the main stat, but I personally think Dex fits better.

I agree with all of the above quote.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Looking at it from both a thematic point of view, as well as toying with the numbers:

A Battlemaster Swashbuckler strikes me as the Hollywood hero that uses style and grace to make the enemy look like chumps. Something like a Legolas character.

A Magnificent Bastard Swashbuckler strikes me as the sort who isn't too bad with a weapon himself, but prefers to use his head when screwing with his enemies. Something like Percival Blakeney.

[dragoonsgone]

The at-will powers would grant combo points, combo moves (encounter powers) require a certain amount of combo points to use, but don't consume them, and finishers (daily powers) require a good number of combo points, and use them all up in the process.

(Note that "Combo Points", "Combo Moves", and "Finishers" are all just things I pulled out of my arse, and should probably be replaced when we have the feel of the system more, but for now we should figure out how it would work in the first place)


The combos idea is interesting but I don't like requiring combo points. To me it reeks of being way too weak. You can't use your daily power several rounds into combat when the enemies are dispersed and you want to aoe them?

I say make it where you can use a daily or encounter power at any time but if you have combo points then it gets more powerful. You can also decide how many combo points you use.

For example, say the level 1 encounter power does W+dex and knocks an enemy prone. You can spend 1 combo point to increase damage by 1 or 3 to make enemy prone for an extra round or even dazed for 1 round.
You could even increase size of some powers with combo points.

[mikeejimbo]

Hmm, it would improve the mechanics of combos while keeping the flavor if you had the daily powers give a benefit to the next At-Will used.

[erikun]

Perhaps making DEX primary-CHA secondary one path, and INT primary-CHA secondary the other path? That would make the Swashbuckler more versatile, but would require more powers each level to keep one side from having dead levels. Of course, DEX/CHA and DEX/INT make designing powers easier, but you're pretty much saying all Swashbucklers need to be agile swordsmen.

CHA primary? Interesting, but that feels too much like a Bard or Paladin, honestly.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

You mean like a Devoted Cleric (Cha/Wis), a War Wizard (Dex/Int) or a Rageblood Barbarian (Str/Con)? Overlapping Stats shouldn't be a problem. It weakens the character in ways, forcing us to balance them with that in mind, but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah. Those are all wasteful builds. It would seem that WotC has never been a company to hire the sharpest tools in the shed.

[AgentPaper]

The combos idea is interesting but I don't like requiring combo points. To me it reeks of being way too weak. You can't use your daily power several rounds into combat when the enemies are dispersed and you want to aoe them?

I say make it where you can use a daily or encounter power at any time but if you have combo points then it gets more powerful. You can also decide how many combo points you use.

For example, say the level 1 encounter power does W+dex and knocks an enemy prone. You can spend 1 combo point to increase damage by 1 or 3 to make enemy prone for an extra round or even dazed for 1 round.
You could even increase size of some powers with combo points.

Ah, but that is only true if the At-Wills required you to spend a standard action to get action points. You could also have something like a minor action, targets will, shifts the target 1 square and grants you an action point. Another one is an immediate reaction to you or an ally being targeted by an attack, and causes that attack to target another creature instead, then grants you a combo point.

Most moves would only take 1 or 2 combo points, and finishers could take 3-4, to start. You can easily generate 1 combo point per round, maybe 2, so it doesn't take you long to get to the powerful abilities.

[dragoonsgone]

Why would I want to be a class that takes up to 4 rounds to do a daily when I could just play a class that let you do it right off the bad when it might be more strategically important? I would like a class with more options in 4e not fewer.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

Aww, I was kind of rooting for Battlemaster. Reguardless, if the Buckler of Swashes provides better ideas, I'm all for it.

As for skills, Acrobatics immediately comes to mind, as does Bluff. Streetwise is another that seems to fit, as is Intimidate.

Perception and Insight come to mind, although I don't see the Swashbuckler as terribly stealthy - they're flashy and flamboyant, so leave the sneaking to the rogues. Thievery only comes to mind due to the slight of hand tricks, although a Swashbuckler could probably pick a lock when needed.

History and Diplomancy feel less Swashbuckler-ish, but they're good options for someone who wants to play more of a royal duelist or foppish court entertainer, and not confined to a pirate role.


The skills in bold are my suggestions. To state them again:

Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomancy
History
Intimidate
Insight
Perception
Streetwise
Thievery

...possibly making Acrobatics or Bluff manditory, as they are kind of central to the idea.
I like that, I'm thinking Bluff as the skill you're innately trained in, and how about four more skills? Or would that be too much?


I would say, for build options: Dex and Cha for the more traditional swashbuckler, and then Dex and Int for a more strategic type. The Charisma build would lean a bit towards leader, throwing out more buffs and especially debuffs, while the int side would be a more focused controller build.

The main thing we need to think of, though, is what exactly the class is meant to do. In that interest, we have to look at the various tools available to a controller:

1) Hit multiple targets.
This might be as simple as having a burst effect, but that's probably not something we want to give out too much to a martial class, in the interests of differentiating them from magic users. So, we need to think of different ways for a single attack to affect two or more creatures.

2) Influence enemy decisions.
This is essentially the bread and butter of a true controller. Whether it's helping the enemy decide to attack the defender, or to run somewhere instead of attacking, the controller has to be able to affect the enemy's decisions.

3) Deny specific actions.
Similar to #2, but more direct, is outright denying the enemy from certain actions, either by blocking terrain, making someone invisible to them, and so on, but this is a more powerful effect that goes beyond nudging your enemies the way you want towards straight-up telling them what they can and can't do.

4) Reduce enemy effectiveness.
De-buffs, plain and simple. The less powerful an enemy is, the less you have to worry about him coming in to smack you.

5) Avoid harm.
Easy enough, you can't control if you're dead, and this will be especially important for a martial controller, since he's most likely going to be toe-to-toe with his puppe...er, enemies.

Each ability we make should do one or more of these things. However, before we actually start making abilities, I think we should think about the mechanics of the character. In the interest of not just making another normal class that functions just on the various powers, I vote that we give this guy a special mechanic. Perhaps something akin to combo points? Then, instead of encounter and daily powers, you get "Combo Moves" and "Finishers"

The at-will powers would grant combo points, combo moves (encounter powers) require a certain amount of combo points to use, but don't consume them, and finishers (daily powers) require a good number of combo points, and use them all up in the process.

(Note that "Combo Points", "Combo Moves", and "Finishers" are all just things I pulled out of my arse, and should probably be replaced when we have the feel of the system more, but for now we should figure out how it would work in the first place)

I also say that we should probably just agree to re-vote on names and such after getting the ground-work done for the class. We can come up with names as we work on it. (For example, I'm now liking the idea of "Blade Dancer" or some similar name) Swashbuckler will do for a working title at least, though.

I also think that the Combo points, Combo Moves and Finishers are an awesome concept, and I agree on the points you stated. Yes, there will be a revote after this is all done on the name.

[Gralamin]

The combo point idea should be avoided. In other systems, it would be great, but in 4e the first few rounds are very very crucial, and restricting options arbitrarily for a class will make it very weak.

[erikun]

I like that, I'm thinking Bluff as the skill you're innately trained in, and how about four more skills? Or would that be too much?
Bluff + 4 skills sounds like a good idea. It's the same as a Bard, and one less than a Rogue, so sounds about right.

I have a few suggestions for powers, but would like some time to type them out.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Insight
Intimidate
Perception

[mikeejimbo]

The combo point idea should be avoided. In other systems, it would be great, but in 4e the first few rounds are very very crucial, and restricting options arbitrarily for a class will make it very weak.

What about my idea, where you reverse it - you grant a bonus to your next at-will when you use certain Dailies? They could even be thematically linked.

[AgentPaper]

The combo point idea should be avoided. In other systems, it would be great, but in 4e the first few rounds are very very crucial, and restricting options arbitrarily for a class will make it very weak.

A slow start isn't an intrinsic flaw in combo points. If you really think it's important to open up with something big, you can make it so you start combat with combo points, or have a daily ability that gives you a handful as a minor action or some such. Something like "Moment of Clarity - Grants (int mod) combo points."

However, I don't think it's really making the class weak, so much as it's making the class different. Just because most classes like to open up with their best stuff doesn't mean that every class has to do that to compete. Not to mention that finishers will probably be significantly more powerful than a normal daily would be. And really, it should never take more than 2 rounds to get the combo points you need. So you're looking at the first round you use your at-wills, second round you use a minor action point booster and a move, and the third round you finish off with a finisher. Especially powerful finishers might require more combo points and not happen until the fourth round, but that's the players choice to wait that long, though it might be worth it, especially for boss-type encounters.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

Also I'm thinking that Finisher Dailies will be twice-use powers.

[AgentPaper]

Also I'm thinking that Finisher Dailies will be twice-use powers.

Actually, I could see letting them be able to be used as much as you want, the only restriction being you have to have the combo points to use them.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

Last couple of days have been killer, But I'm getting ideas flowing around my head as to what to do with our little class. I'm thinking of putting it up on D&D wiki as well.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Regarding combo points, what if you took a little inspiration from the Psion, and used combo points to create an augmented version of each power? Not using the term "augment", but its own unique term. And then left things as suggested. So Encounter powers have a low-power version used with insufficient combo points, and a high-power version used with sufficient combo points. And then Dailies burn combo points, unless you do a weaker version of the daily, which doesn't burn them.

Skills? I'd recommend History, Bluff, and Acrobatics.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

... I'm confused as to why a controller class would have abilities with controlled usage. :smallconfused: Doesn't that strike anyone here as being wrong?

[AgentPaper]

... I'm confused as to why a controller class would have abilities with controlled usage. :smallconfused: Doesn't that strike anyone here as being wrong?

Not really. His bread-and-butter effects, like moving people around, inflicting minor status effects, and so on, would all be in the at-wills, with slightly more powerful versions requiring a turn or two of point building, at the most. Then, his more powerful stuff, like stuns, shift-denial, and large amounts of movement would require 2-3 rounds to build up to, and use up those points, so you can't do them too often. You can probably do 1-2 per combat, which is similar to how often you can pull off daily moves. Harder, longer encounters, especially boss-type encounters, will probably see 3-4 of them coming off, or 2-3 of the more powerful type.

It just adds more depth to the class. Instead of "I use my most powerful daily, then my second most powerful daily, then my third, etc., etc., until the enemy is dead." you have to plan out how much time you want to spend building up action points, and how much you want to spend doing things that don't build up action points, but are more powerful on their own.