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AstralFire
2009-07-17, 07:22 PM
Original Post:
I suppose this is sort of an edge-topicality question, but as my question more pertains to the appeal of the Sith Wars/Jedi Civil War as a game setting than it does in general fiction, I think it can go here.

I've never really been a big fan, personally, but most of the games that I see going on are oriented around it. On the one hand, there's lots of Force Users - but you can find that in both the Clone Wars and the New Republic eras too, and there's a wider variety there. And on the other hand, it seems like every conflict ever is part of the Jedi-Sith religious war. I like Sith, but I like them used sparingly. (Though this is also part of my complaint with the way the setting slides as you get closer to the Legacy era.)

Palpy and Vader are Sith, sure, but they're not seemingly all over the place and they act through agents. Palpatine's rule wasn't even about a 'revenge of the Sith', near as I can tell, so much as "I'm booping awesome, I'm going to rule the known universe."

And Sith versus Jedi highlights the whole danger of falling to the Dark Side thing... and when it's all the time, you kinda end up feeling like maybe it'd be better if you just banned Force instruction since 1 out of 3 Jedi who become important do their best impression of a Warcraft major character and suddenly TURN EVIL AND DROP MAD LOOTS. (Disclaimer: May or may not drop mad loots.)

So... yeah, what's the big appeal of the Old Republic?

Thread has been answered. Thread is now about arguing the merits rather than explaining them to me. Bring it on! But don't jump into the argument without reading what's already been posted. =X

Nerd-o-rama
2009-07-17, 07:35 PM
Because KOTOR (the video game) was better written than almost everything else in any Star Wars continuity, including the movies.

I think that's the main reason.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 07:38 PM
Because KOTOR (the video game) was better written than almost everything else in any Star Wars continuity, including the movies.

I think that's the main reason.

...What.

I've never attributed 'good writing' as one of Bioware's strengths, honestly. Mass Effect surprised me in this regard. So what you just said blew my mind there.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-07-17, 07:39 PM
Well, I've never considered "good writing" to be the strength of anyone else related to the Star Wars series either. At least Bioware can manage non-stilted dialog.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 07:41 PM
Well, I've never considered "good writing" to be the strength of anyone else related to the Star Wars series either. At least Bioware can manage non-stilted dialog.

My potential responses include:

Thanking you for your input. [Truth]
Thanking you for your input. [Lie/Persuade]
Try to understand why you think this. [Wisdom]
WHY DON'T I SHOVE THAT DATAPAD DOWN YOUR THROAT [Dark Side]


I'll give you that Jolee, Canderous and Saul were entertainingly written, though.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-07-17, 07:45 PM
The short version is, real Star Wars fans hate Star Wars.

Just kidding, but I did enjoy the overall plot, some of the subplots, and the NPC dialog in KOTOR. Your character's dialog wasn't terribly inspired (blame it being a video game RPG here), and a few of the subplots were just execrable (i.e. the romance subplots), but overall, it was a game that was much more enjoyable than the overhyped prequels or the overdone novels, which is why so many Star Wars fans latched onto it.

Reverent-One
2009-07-17, 07:51 PM
I think what's also important is the openness of the era. In the prequel/clone wars time period, pretty much everything major is a manipulation of Palpatine, the Republic is on it's way out, and there's a lot of details filled in, which can leave players feeling constrained. The time of the rebellion is similarly crowded, and of course Jedi are low in numbers.

And other EU sources can be hit or miss, with no guarantee that the players are familiar with them. A popular video game though? That gives them at least a basic idea of the time period.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 07:52 PM
I'll concede different tastes. I thought KotOR 2 was better written, but rushed, and I actually like all of the movies. Episodes I - VI and the Clone Wars Microseries. The writing at times sinks to be on par with KotOR's "irrational dark side actions" with the exception of ESB, but much more exciting visuals/music/scenarios.

But I also bear a grudge against KotOR for its random weak Yoda clone among other things.

Still, all of that aside, that doesn't necessarily make the setting itself better and I find I appreciate the Sith less the more backstory we get on them. I don't understand how you can have an organization that is simultaneously devoted to its own existence and devoted towards slaughtering everyone else in said organization. Why would anyone raise an apprentice?


I think what's also important is the openness of the era. In the prequel/clone wars time period, pretty much everything major is a manipulation of Palpatine, the Republic is on it's way out, and there's a lot of details filled in, which can leave players feeling constrained. The time of the rebellion is similarly crowded, and of course Jedi are low in numbers.

That's true, you bring up a good point. As a DM, I usually go with the assumption that while if nothing else happens, we stick to the established major canon, if the players do something major the story will change. I personally think that leaves a lot of fun for What-If, or as they call it, 'Infinities' scenarios.

Nerd-o-rama
2009-07-17, 07:54 PM
To create the most hilarious quest series in RPG history on Korriban, obviously. Good lord but quadruple-crossing people is fun.

Grynning
2009-07-17, 07:55 PM
...
I'll give you that Jolee, Canderous and Saul were entertainingly written, though.

You left out 4 alphanumeric characters and a hyphen. HK-47 is one of the best comic relief characters in an RPG to date, IMO.

Regardless of one's opinions on the KOTOR games, I think the primary appeal for the setting for tabletop gaming is that the era spans such a broad timespan and has so many possibilities that weren't covered by the games and comics. This leaves a lot of ground to cover for PC's, without any canon to step on your storyline. The other eras all have cargo holds full of material (some of it good, some of it...god-awful) that cover pretty much anything heroic there would be to do, and it makes the galaxy feel a lot smaller. That's why we play in the KOTOR era anyway.

Edit: basically ninja'd by Reverent One.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 07:57 PM
I will certainly grant that if you're looking for humor in the Star Wars universe, Stormtroopers, Squibs, Ewoks, and C-3P0 have absolutely nothing on the Sith of the Old Republic era.


You left out 4 alphanumeric characters and a hyphen. HK-47 is one of the best comic relief characters in an RPG to date, IMO.

He's okay. I got tired of his schtick fast though, I mothballed him after Tatooine and was not happy to see him come back for a forced encore in 2 - he was one of the two party members in #2 I didn't like, as opposed to the fact that I only liked two party members in #1.

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-17, 07:57 PM
Personally:

I like the KOTOR Era because it's not tied down to the prequels, nor the post-New Republic expanded universe..

The prequels... I personally did not enjoy very much; and due to the way they're tied in... they rather hurt my feelings for the original trilogy as well <~.~> (Obviously this is just my opinion)

I'm also not a fan of the later expanded universe stuff (as in the Yuuzhan Vong and later stuff) - lots of reasons for that as well.

KOTOR... well it feels, to me, like Star Wars did when I was first getting into it. Like the original trilogy + the X-Wing Books, Thrawn Trilogy and the like.

I like how the Sith Empire catches the whole "Imperial" vibe that the original trilogy Empire has... but adds regular dark jedi to the mix. They're menacing, they're evil... you don't feel too bad about blasting them <'x'>;; (This isn't to say I don't enjoy morally grey Star Wars at times; but having a clear bad guy is nice.)

I also like how the Republic is rather... well it's not good nor evil really; and the same could be said of the Jedi order. There are aspects that are certainly laudable... and others that are quite questionable. And more than a few that are just flat inefficient. (Which presents a lot of opportunity for PCs; since there are bound to be people looking to do things that the Republic simply can't or due to bureaucracy, won't.)

I"m not saying it's perfect by any stretch... but it catches the vibe that got me into Star Wars; and that's what I like about it <. .>m

Though the lack of X-Wings will forever be a knock against it <;_;>

Faceist
2009-07-17, 08:05 PM
I liked how KotOR didn't tread the same old ground that a lot of other Star Wars tie-ins feel the need to. Since it was set - what, a few thousand years? - before the events of the movies, they were free to explore a significantly different galaxy from the one present in A New Hope or even the (shudder) pre-clone wars prequel trilogy. The writing can be campy at times, but is pretty consistently good: I'd say a lot of it is about on par with the original trilogy at its best. (It certainly runs rings around the prequels.) And above all else, it creates compelling and interesting characters. HK-47 was like a robotic Belkar, every sociopathic act of cruelty he performed made me chuckle guiltily. And Kreia was basically an insight into how a character like Palpatine would have to operate in day-to-day life, a domineering chessmaster manipulating people in increasingly subtle ways. (Not to say there weren't cookie-cutter characters there too, hello R2-D2 expy.)

Basically, there was no one aspect of the game I disliked to the point that it spoiled the rest of it. Does that make sense? It wasn't amazing, but it was good in all the right places.

NEO|Phyte
2009-07-17, 08:06 PM
He's okay. I got tired of his schtick fast though, I mothballed him after Tatooine and was not happy to see him come back for a forced encore in 2.

Nothing's FORCING you to put all his parts back together, you know. If you don't like him, just let him sit there sparking in his alcove. :smalltongue:

As for why its liked, it's more or less a combination of people liking the games, and thus the era by association, and the list of Canon people/events/whatever being a lot shorter than various other eras, allowing for more freedom of actions without worrying about pissing off Luke Skywalker or something. Plus it's a time when glowbat wielders aren't rare, should that float the players' boats.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 08:09 PM
Actually, that's one of my major complaints about the Qel-Droma and KotOR era - to me it doesn't feel like it's treading new ground. It's a remix of things people like, and most of it doesn't feel like it was done in a new way. Kreia, Jolee, Canderous and HK-47 are the most unusual things from that time compared to major things in the main universe, off the top of my head. The Sith work as almost a direct analogue to Palpatine's Empire, right down to nonsensical (but cool looking - even more than clonetroopers) Sith Troopers, the Republic is exactly as ailing and inefficient as it is right before the Galactic Civil War, the Jedi keep getting purged, there is a Jedi council, there are Yoda and R2-D2 Expies, there are Mandalorians, all of the major races are there as they are in the modern universe (if the Tusken Raiders met people 4,000 years ago, how the hell have they not developed at all?!) hyperspace technology is exactly the same...

I would like the era more if it really DID feel like it was 4,000 years ago. It doesn't. Hell, kolto runs rings around bacta apparently then people forget about it.

Reverent-One
2009-07-17, 08:11 PM
If I were running a Star Wars campaign, my era choices would probably be these:

Kotor, for the reasons previously mentioned.

The New Republic era, while there were still plenty of groupings of Imperial holdings and the fiction was pretty much superweapon/crisis of the week. You could drop a large scale threat in there, and it wouldn't matter much. How many times is the Darksaber crisis mentioned again in the EU? Even the Sun Crusher incident wouldn't have been remembered much if not for the fact that Kyp Durron became a important jedi.

the Vong invasion, just for the different feel I think that exists there. Especially if the players aren't that familiar with it, since they would respond to the alien-ness of the Vong much like the citizens of the Republic did. "What the heck are those things?!" "I don't know! Run!!!!" It could be a much more survivalist type game.

Grynning
2009-07-17, 08:21 PM
Actually, that's one of my major complaints about the Qel-Droma and KotOR era - to me it doesn't feel like it's treading new ground. It's a remix of things people like, and most of it doesn't feel like it was done in a new way. Kreia, Jolee, Canderous and HK-47 are the most unusual things from that time compared to major things in the main universe, off the top of my head. The Sith work as almost a direct analogue to Palpatine's Empire, right down to nonsensical (but cool looking - even more than clonetroopers) Sith Troopers, the Republic is exactly as ailing and inefficient as it is right before the Galactic Civil War, the Jedi keep getting purged, there is a Jedi council, there are Yoda and R2-D2 Expies, there are Mandalorians, all of the major races are there as they are in the modern universe (if the Tusken Raiders met people 4,000 years ago, how the hell have they not developed at all?!) hyperspace technology is exactly the same...

I would like the era more if it really DID feel like it was 4,000 years ago. It doesn't. Hell, kolto runs rings around bacta apparently then people forget about it.

I think the re-treading of themes is kind of part of the appeal, because KOTOR is closer to what a lot of people thought the prequel trilogy SHOULD have been. Really I think the only reason they slapped the "4000 year" distance on there was to appease Lucas by not stepping on anything. If you bumped it up to say, 40 years before new hope and then decided to ignore everything from episodes 1-3, suddenly all of the expies and similarities make more sense. You can see a much cooler origin for Anakin, Vader and Palpatine emerging from that universe than what we actually got in the films, at least that's the opinion many friends and I share.

Also, regarding timelines in fantasy - Lord of the Rings readers and movie fans readily accept that Middle Earth was completely culturally and technologically stagnant for TENS of thousands of years. Star Wars can get a bit of slack for its 5 millennia.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 08:34 PM
I suppose it kind of leaves me with the feel of "why not run a game 40 years before the prequels instead of giving me a promise of a radically different look at the Star Wars galaxy a long time ago and then robbing me of that." :|

But I like different looks on the same setting. I like watching universes evolve. Seeing Jedi with vibroblades that can't deflect bullets and meeting alien races in a way that's significant rather than cavalier, repulsortech not commonplace, but still around... The foundation of the Republic... that's what I'd like to see in a 'long ago' game. KotOR being a retread leaves me feeling cheated.

Talya
2009-07-17, 10:39 PM
...What.

I've never attributed 'good writing' as one of Bioware's strengths, honestly. Mass Effect surprised me in this regard. So what you just said blew my mind there.


Bioware has the best writing of any game-maker in the business. KotOR is the best single player RPG of any genre of all time.

I have high hopes for SWTOR to break the MMO mold with it's story and personality driven design. They've already recorded more dialogue for it than all 8 seasons of The Sopranos put together.

KotOR is the nicest setting for RPGs because you're not tied down to any existing events, you don't have to worry about getting the last 4000 years of history right, and there are jedi and sith everywhere. Even clone wars can't say that...yes, there were jedi everywhere, but very few sith to pit them against.


I suppose it kind of leaves me with the feel of "why not run a game 40 years before the prequels instead of giving me a promise of a radically different look at the Star Wars galaxy a long time ago and then robbing me of that." :|

But I like different looks on the same setting. I like watching universes evolve. Seeing Jedi with vibroblades that can't deflect bullets and meeting alien races in a way that's significant rather than cavalier, repulsortech not commonplace, but still around...

That wouldn't be star wars. It's fairly well established canon...since long before the prequel movies came out or even before the Star Wars "EU" started churning out book after book, that tech in the galaxy has been stagnant for thousands...perhaps tens of thousands...of years. The civilization of the Galaxy far, far away has been in decay and decline for a long time.

Guancyto
2009-07-17, 10:46 PM
Bioware has Chris Avellone, one of the best writers of any game-maker in the business except for the NWN2 incident. KotORPlanescape: Torment is the best single player RPG of any genre of all time.

Fixed that for you!

If it had been finished, KotOR II would have easily been up there (since he was the writer for it, too).

That said, KotOR was bloody fantastic, and I will be subscribing to their MMO. Between the two games, they had the epic Sith vs. Jedi and the heavily psychological, "what is a Sith? What is a Jedi?"

deuxhero
2009-07-17, 10:53 PM
...What.

I've never attributed 'good writing' as one of Bioware's strengths

*Agrees with AstralFire*

I think it has something to do with reasonably being able to have large numbers of sith/jedi run around and fight eachother.

Talya
2009-07-17, 10:53 PM
Fixed that for you!

If it had been finished, KotOR II would have easily been up there (since he was the writer for it, too).

That said, KotOR was bloody fantastic, and I will be subscribing to their MMO.

Bioware wasn't directly involved in NWN2 or KotOR2, but I assume you meant the writer was the same anyway.

And yes, it's possible KotOR2 would have been better if they'd finished it. It's hard to say. The gameplay was certainly better, if not the storyline. The villains were incomprehensible to me in KotOR2. Malak was someone I could understand. Nihilus, Sion, and Traya, not so much.

Deepblue706
2009-07-17, 10:55 PM
KotOR is the best single player RPG of any genre of all time.


Deus Ex would like to have a word with you.

Anyway, I like the KotOR era because I find it less annoying as compared to the time the movies span through. Mostly because I find all of the movies, except The Empire Strikes Back, to be bad. Although, I accept the original (despite my feelings of the soundtrack being the only reason it's entertaining), since you can't have a good sequel without first beginning somewhere.

But yeah. KotOR lets me ignore all of the stuff I dislike about Star Wars (the attempts at writing) but keep the stuff I enjoy (Lightsabers, The Force and Spaceships).

Guancyto
2009-07-17, 10:58 PM
Bioware wasn't directly involved in NWN2 or KotOR2, but I assume you meant the writer was the same anyway.

And yes, it's possible KotOR2 would have been better if they'd finished it. It's hard to say. The gameplay was certainly better, if not the storyline. The villains were incomprehensible to me in KotOR2. Malak was someone I could understand. Nihilus, Sion, and Traya, not so much.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, wasn't clear. :smallredface:

Malak was easy. "Crush, kill, destroy, crush, crush!"

I must've played through the sequel a dozen times and still generally picked up something interesting about one of the villains that I hadn't noticed before.

It is mostly the strength of the writing (whether "We are tropes, we shall battle! JUSTICE!" or the sequel) that made the KotOR setting, though, and I hear the SW RP sourcebooks related to it were made of awesome as well.

Erts
2009-07-17, 11:01 PM
But yeah. KotOR lets me ignore all of the stuff I dislike about Star Wars (the attempts at writing) but keep the stuff I enjoy (Lightsabers, The Force and Spaceships).

Exactly the same for me.

KotOR, and its sequel are more, well, EPIC.

The Star Forge, the villians are scarier, (in retrospect, Palpatine was the only good villian of the entire original series,) you have cooler moves, etc.
Its a video game rather than a movie, and it has plot.

Talya
2009-07-17, 11:01 PM
Deus Ex would like to have a word with you.


I got bored and didn't finish it. I don't consider a shooter an RPG, and I've played other shooters with (at the very least) more immediately engaging storylines. (Anything by Monolith, in fact. <3 NOLF, NOLF2, AvP2, and Tron2.0. Not to mention FEAR.)

Deepblue706
2009-07-17, 11:04 PM
I got bored and didn't finish it. I don't consider a shooter an RPG, and I've played other shooters with (at the very least) more immediately engaging storylines. (Anything by Monolith, in fact. <3 NOLF, NOLF2, AvP2, and Tron2.0. Not to mention FEAR.)

Shooter? Then is Mass Effect also not an RPG?

Reverent-One
2009-07-17, 11:09 PM
The Star Forge, the villians are scarier, (in retrospect, Palpatine was the only good villian of the entire original series,)

Wait, what...? I find your lack of Darth Vader disturbing.



(Anything by Monolith, in fact. <3 NOLF, NOLF2, AvP2, and Tron2.0. Not to mention FEAR.)

Freaking love that game. Like I can't even describe it. It is just made of win and awesome.

13_CBS
2009-07-17, 11:29 PM
I think Talya's touched on something:

The Old Republic, particularly around and a few decades before the KotOR series, is when you've got lots of jedi AND sith running around.

The problem with games in the Clone Wars is that, obviously, everything is overshadowed by the Clone Wars, which is mostly about jedi and clones duking it out with droids. Ever since the Battle of Ruusan, it's always been only 2 Sith, so it's pretty difficult to have you fight lots of Sith when there's only, well, two.

But by setting the timeline waaay back before Ruusan, when jedi and Sith were really going at each other, you not only have a very good excuse to be a jedi (there's lots of them, so why can't you simply be one?), but you also have a good excuse to go after the Sith. Not just any dark siders a la the Reborn from Jedi Outcast and Academy (fine games they were, though the dialogue could have used some work), but the real Sith themselves--the pre-Ruusan era Old Republic is the time when you get to fight through Darth X's minions and shove a lightsaber up his arse. Any time past that and it's simply not possible--you're fighting dark side cultists, maybe, or some renegade jedi, plus loads of stormtroopers, but no "real" Sith.

KotOR lets you do just that.

Edit: Talya, your tastes in FPS games (NOLF, NOLF2, AvP2) is par none, madam. :smallbiggrin:

Anxe
2009-07-17, 11:29 PM
Because during the other eras the players can screw up "historical" events. That's why I did my campaign of Star Wars in the Old Republic. Also nobody knows what the hell is going on in New Republic.


I suppose it kind of leaves me with the feel of "why not run a game 40 years before the prequels instead of giving me a promise of a radically different look at the Star Wars galaxy a long time ago and then robbing me of that." :|

That's what I did.

Talya
2009-07-17, 11:34 PM
Shooter? Then is Mass Effect also not an RPG?

You're touching on a much deeper OT discussion!

Mass Effect i felt was a very poor RPG... Action-RPGs are not really RPGs. It was a half-assed shooter with mediocre gameplay mixed with a good story and writing that almost made up for it. That said, it wasn't a "first person shooter" (which I didn't specify when I said "shooter." I mistakenly assume when I say shooter people will know that's what I mean, since I don't use the term to describe third-person action games.)

While Mass Effect is my least favorite RPG entry from Bioware though, thanks to the action elements...I felt it was was ten times the RPG that Deus Ex was. Deus Ex was first and foremost a shooter. The few RPG elements I saw in it were no deeper than those in NOLF2 or Tron2.0 (great shooters, but nobody calls them RPGs.)

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 11:41 PM
Bioware has the best writing of any game-maker in the business. KotOR is the best single player RPG of any genre of all time.

The former statement might or might not be true. I certainly enjoyed Mass Effect's story presentation, but NWN OC was terrible, and if you expand writing to include overall storytelling, Shadow of the Colossus, Okami... there are number that Bioware can't even touch because I don't feel they use the multimedia aspect well as a storytelling device. I definitely don't agree with that second statement; Mass Effect, Tales of the Abyss, the Paper Mario series all rate well above it for me, and I also rate KotOR 2 above it.


That wouldn't be star wars. It's fairly well established canon...since long before the prequel movies came out or even before the Star Wars "EU" started churning out book after book, that tech in the galaxy has been stagnant for thousands...perhaps tens of thousands...of years. The civilization of the Galaxy far, far away has been in decay and decline for a long time.

That just doesn't make any sense. Going from the Clone Wars Era to the Legacy of the Force era, there are continual developments and improvements to ship technology - the Z-95 is clearly improved on by the X-Wing which is clearly improved on by the X83 (ugly ship that it is.) You see the same progression with the capital ships moving from the Venator Star Destroyers to the Pellaeon Star Destroyers. I'm aware that the KotOR era is canon and how it happened, but it's rather nonsensical that there's essentially no galactic development for 4,000 years, then all of a sudden it starts up again. An expectation for the SW universe to be dramatically different if not unrecognizably so 4,000 years ago is logical.


I think Talya's touched on something:

The Old Republic, particularly around and a few decades before the KotOR series, is when you've got lots of jedi AND sith running around.

The problem with games in the Clone Wars is that, obviously, everything is overshadowed by the Clone Wars, which is mostly about jedi and clones duking it out with droids. Ever since the Battle of Ruusan, it's always been only 2 Sith, so it's pretty difficult to have you fight lots of Sith when there's only, well, two.

As I said, I treasure the Sith as a rarity. The more I see them casually used, the more they slide from "really awesome villains" to "another Jedi's gone Rita Repulsa on us and switched lightsaber colors". =\

13_CBS
2009-07-17, 11:47 PM
As I said, I treasure the Sith as a rarity. The more I see them casually used, the more they slide from "really awesome villains" to "another Jedi's gone Rita Repulsa on us and switched lightsaber colors". =\

That's true, but what other large, "organized" political body can field so many lightsaber-wielding force users outside of the Republic? The Sith Empire makes for a great villain organization from a video game point of view since it can offer such a large variety of enemies--from stormtrooper knockoffs to dark jedi to other weird stuff. No other political body from any other Star Wars timeline can really offer that, as far as I know. The Empire can field lots of mooks with blasters, and dark jedi leaders like Desann can field a number of lightsaber wielders, but other than that...

Talya
2009-07-17, 11:49 PM
The former statement might or might not be true. I certainly enjoyed Mass Effect's story presentation, but NWN OC was terrible. I definitely don't agree with that second statement; Mass Effect, Tales of the Abyss, the Paper Mario series all rate well above it for me.

I didn't find the NWN OC terrible, but it wasn't great. That said, the NWN-OC was to RPGs what Unreal was to FPS games...it was a demo of "Hey, look what we can do with this engine!" The only difference was instead of intending it to be sold, bioware intended for players to create most of the game content. I don't get the impression they spent a lot of time working on theirs.



That just doesn't make any sense. Going from the Clone Wars Era to the Legacy of the Force era, there are continual developments and improvements to ship technology - the Z-95 is clearly improved on by the X-Wing which is clearly improved on by the X83 (ugly ship that it is.) You see the same progression with the capital ships moving from the Venator Star Destroyers to the Pellaeon Star Destroyers. I'm aware that the KotOR era is canon and how it happened, but it's rather nonsensical that there's essentially no galactic development for 4,000 years, then all of a sudden it starts up again.


I always got the impression they were very minor changes that had everything to do with how much money/resources people were willing to spend on military and little to do with the capabilities of the companies manufacturing them.



As I said, I treasure the Sith as a rarity. The more I see them casually used, the more they slide from "really awesome villains" to "another Jedi's gone Rita Repulsa on us and switched lightsaber colors". =\


If the sith are a rarity, you will never build a dedicated lightsaber duelist PC, ever, because you're building an entire character up to face a maximum of two opponents they're designed to handle through the entire course of a campaign. And nothing is quite so exciting as a lightsaber duel...i wanna be in one as the payoff boss fight as often as possible. People weilding blasters are supposed to be cannon-fodder trash.

Erts
2009-07-17, 11:50 PM
Wait, what...? I find your lack of Darth Vader disturbing.

I found him semi disturbing when I saw his face, but that was it.

Sidous scared me. A lot. (I was a kid.) Vader, he just didn't do it.

And in retrospec, even more so.

Compared to the old guys, he was nothing.

Force rage, force whirlwind, force "end planet life," and lots of other much more disturbing things than a force choke. They had force "pull down starships!"

13_CBS
2009-07-17, 11:52 PM
If the sith are a rarity, you will never build a dedicated lightsaber duelist PC, ever, because you're building an entire character up to face a maximum of two opponents they're designed to handle through the entire course of a campaign. And nothing is quite so exciting as a lightsaber duel...i wanna be in one as the payoff boss fight as often as possible. People weilding blasters are supposed to be cannon-fodder trash.

You don't need "real" Sith to have lots of lightsaber opponents. See: Jedi Outcast (Shadowtroopers, aka artificial Imperial jedi, and Reborn) and Jedi Academy (Reborn + Sith Cultists).

And if your really wanted to, I guess there's always other folks like Jensaarai who could be interesting lightsaber opponents.

AstralFire
2009-07-17, 11:54 PM
That's true, but what other large, "organized" political body can field so many lightsaber-wielding force users outside of the Republic? The Sith Empire makes for a great villain organization from a video game point of view since it can offer such a large variety of enemies--from stormtrooper knockoffs to dark jedi to other weird stuff. No other political body from any other Star Wars timeline can really offer that, as far as I know. The Empire can field lots of mooks with blasters, and dark jedi leaders like Desann can field a number of lightsaber wielders, but other than that...

In general, I dislike the overemphasis on Jedi. Jedi themselves I feel should be rare, and while I enjoyed the visceral experience that was Mace Windu going apeboop on a bunch of droids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk), that should be an extreme exception. We don't see those kinds of Force power feats on a regular basis when we're not staring at the best and brightest of the Jedi Order in any era.

And remember, canonically, Calo Nord, HK-47, Jango Fett, Boba Fett, Thrawn and many others without Force Powers have provided sufficient challenges for Jedi without themselves employing the Force. If you're not playing in a timeline where you regularly see Force Sensitives of that level, you don't need to resort to escalation on the enemy side.

^ All of the above is, of course, my opinion.

Erts
2009-07-17, 11:55 PM
As I said, I treasure the Sith as a rarity. The more I see them casually used, the more they slide from "really awesome villains" to "another Jedi's gone Rita Repulsa on us and switched lightsaber colors". =\

The powerful Sith were rare.

And in modern times, while they are not in the movies, you have the Dark Jedi. (Not Sith.) A lot of time is spent fighting those.

ondonaflash
2009-07-17, 11:59 PM
I'm coming in to this debate late, so I'm not going to get sidetracked by prior arguments and state my argument now: The reason I don't care for the post empire EU is because I think it is by far too dark. I managed to read up to the point where Anakin dies and then I just got sick. Like physically ill. I would dread opening the next book as much as I anticipated it since all along I would be wondering, "What new and exciting ways can Admiral Thrawn/The Emperor's Clone/The Crazy Bitch with a Hammertong/ the Yuuzhan Vong RUIN EVERYTHING today?"; Kind of like reading George RR Martin...

The Old Republic strips all that away! And presents me with a similar playground, with a similar feel, but with characters in whom I am not emotionally invested. Plus it doesn't get nearly as obviously grim as the EU, since when you're playing every thing is already as bad as it can be, so you don't have to play through the parts where your side is tragically losing ground, and being beaten back, losing every hard won, and brutally earned resource little by little!

DAMMIT BRING CHEWIE BACK!!! :frown:

AstralFire
2009-07-18, 12:04 AM
I always got the impression they were very minor changes that had everything to do with how much money/resources people were willing to spend on military and little to do with the capabilities of the companies manufacturing them.

They are clearly statistically improved in the games and tech specs, and constant references are made to 'development' and 'invention' and 'genius.' None of that has a role if there's no actual improvement. I'm also pretty sure Gravi♦ty Wells (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_well) were a relatively new weapon in the post-Endor Galaxy, based on how they were discussed... while the Mass Shadow Generator was developed 3,960 years before it.


If the sith are a rarity, you will never build a dedicated lightsaber duelist PC, ever, because you're building an entire character up to face a maximum of two opponents they're designed to handle through the entire course of a campaign. And nothing is quite so exciting as a lightsaber duel...i wanna be in one as the payoff boss fight as often as possible. People weilding blasters are supposed to be cannon-fodder trash.

And Form II went out of style for a reason, I do believe - the duelist style. And not withstanding, you can have lightsaber duels. There's just... no reason to focus on it, as you said; you mentioned in another thread wanting to replicate how movie Jedi worked, and the only dedicated duelist out of any of the entire lot was Count Dooku, yet Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda and the others more than hold their own. I love my lightsaber duels too, but they're much more exciting the rarer they are (to a point, of course, but when Force Sensitives are so common you can use them as street thugs like the KotOR Sith do, that's too much).

On Darth Malak - whiny snot. @_@


The Old Republic strips all that away! And presents me with a similar playground, with a similar feel, but with characters in whom I am not emotionally invested. Plus it doesn't get nearly as obviously grim as the EU, since when you're playing every thing is already as bad as it can be, so you don't have to play through the parts where your side is tragically losing ground, and being beaten back, losing every hard won, and brutally earned resource little by little!

Uh... so do you play before or after the Sith nearly conquer everything twice and practically all of the Jedi are wiped out twice in a span of about 50 years? (The time between Qel-Droma and the Jedi Exile.)

I agree that it all gets too grim. So we escape 4000 years back and get... the exact same thing? :smallconfused:

Gamgee
2009-07-18, 12:26 AM
Actually, that's one of my major complaints about the Qel-Droma and KotOR era - to me it doesn't feel like it's treading new ground. It's a remix of things people like, and most of it doesn't feel like it was done in a new way. Kreia, Jolee, Canderous and HK-47 are the most unusual things from that time compared to major things in the main universe, off the top of my head. The Sith work as almost a direct analogue to Palpatine's Empire, right down to nonsensical (but cool looking - even more than clonetroopers) Sith Troopers, the Republic is exactly as ailing and inefficient as it is right before the Galactic Civil War, the Jedi keep getting purged, there is a Jedi council, there are Yoda and R2-D2 Expies, there are Mandalorians, all of the major races are there as they are in the modern universe (if the Tusken Raiders met people 4,000 years ago, how the hell have they not developed at all?!) hyperspace technology is exactly the same...

I would like the era more if it really DID feel like it was 4,000 years ago. It doesn't. Hell, kolto runs rings around bacta apparently then people forget about it.
Kolto does for minor superficial wounds. Bacta was better because it was more effective for internal wounds and other ailments. Not to mention Kolto comes from a single planet and Bacta is far more numerous and easily acquired compared to Kolto.

I like the setting because it is co much more epic and grand. You can feel free to work with different stories because there is NOTHING to tie you down or worry about. There is a tiny bit of back story, but it is otherwise a free setting to use in campaigns.

Not to mention everything looks older and cooler. Ships look more clunky and stuff and I always dig that look.

Its also more grand and vast with near constant warfare and you can really feel the pressure is on everybody and finally you just get exhausted like the entire galaxy did from war.

There is an exploration aspect as tons of worlds have not been found yet and all sorts of neat stuff.

I like the other eras, but this one just sticks out as being so memorable.

Edit
Then there is the loss factor. You go back to the original trilogy era and you miss all the old stuff. You knew what it was like back then, and these conflicts seem so petty now. Well not petty, but certainly not anywhere as important as what came before.

No more mass Jedi or Sith, no more Mandalorian crusades, no more Kolto, no more KotOR. You knew the galaxy struggled through all of this just to have the **** hit the fan again. Except this time it isn't some grand battle or war with everyone involved on equal footings.

It is some Rebellion facing this gigantic Empire. Not to mention Luke is a whiny bitch. You realize just how much the Jedi of the new era lost compared to what they knew and could do in the old republic.

ondonaflash
2009-07-18, 12:32 AM
Uh... so do you play before or after the Sith nearly conquer everything twice and practically all of the Jedi are wiped out twice in a span of about 50 years? (The time between Qel-Droma and the Jedi Exile.)

I agree that it all gets too grim. So we escape 4000 years back and get... the exact same thing? :smallconfused:

No, I'm saying: Who cares about those berks? They don't matter, and more importantly, I don't gotta watch each painstaking and heart-wrenching lost, its all after-the-fact. The bad-guys are already in control, so get to work and restore that good, old fashioned anarchy! errr Democracy!

kyuubigan
2009-07-18, 12:43 AM
While I haven't played KotOR, our group was able to play a pretty fun campaign set in the Clone Wars. The premise was simple: the only girl in our group played the jedi, and the rest of us were her clonetrooper squad.

Deepblue706
2009-07-18, 01:15 AM
That said, it wasn't a "first person shooter" (which I didn't specify when I said "shooter." I mistakenly assume when I say shooter people will know that's what I mean, since I don't use the term to describe third-person action games.)

So because the game was in First-Person and not Third-Person, it qualifiies as more of a "Shooter"? Is Morrowind a "Shooter", just with swords?



While Mass Effect is my least favorite RPG entry from Bioware though, thanks to the action elements...I felt it was was ten times the RPG that Deus Ex was. Deus Ex was first and foremost a shooter. The few RPG elements I saw in it were no deeper than those in NOLF2 or Tron2.0 (great shooters, but nobody calls them RPGs.)

You also didn't finish Deus Ex, so I don't know if you can properly judge if whether or not it was primarily a "Shooter". Maybe if you did the first mission and quit right there, I'd understand. But, being able to advance the plot in a number of ways, as well as having to regularly make decisions between who lives and dies make this game pretty RPGish to me.

king.com
2009-07-18, 01:38 AM
You're touching on a much deeper OT discussion!

Mass Effect i felt was a very poor RPG... Action-RPGs are not really RPGs. It was a half-assed shooter with mediocre gameplay mixed with a good story and writing that almost made up for it. That said, it wasn't a "first person shooter" (which I didn't specify when I said "shooter." I mistakenly assume when I say shooter people will know that's what I mean, since I don't use the term to describe third-person action games.)

While Mass Effect is my least favorite RPG entry from Bioware though, thanks to the action elements...I felt it was was ten times the RPG that Deus Ex was. Deus Ex was first and foremost a shooter. The few RPG elements I saw in it were no deeper than those in NOLF2 or Tron2.0 (great shooters, but nobody calls them RPGs.)

Well i have a completely biased opinion of bioware after i fell in love with Baldur's Gate but i still believe Deus Ex is right up there with Kotor and the like. It was a game which gave you complete choice. You had the choice based upon YOUR beliefs about mankind's development and even human nature as to the future destiny of the world.

Thats actually what Kotor appeals. It is indeed your choice which can turn the galaxy into darkness or save it. You have a good 10,000 years of uncompleted timeline to work with. If your actions lead to the collapse of the republic, its still got another 9,000 years to rebuild.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-18, 02:24 AM
He's okay. I got tired of his schtick fast though, I mothballed him after Tatooine and was not happy to see him come back for a forced encore in 2 - he was one of the two party members in #2 I didn't like, as opposed to the fact that I only liked two party members in #1.

You didn't like HK-47? Heresy! Your opinion is now invalidated. :smalltongue:


I would like the era more if it really DID feel like it was 4,000 years ago. It doesn't. Hell, kolto runs rings around bacta apparently then people forget about it.

You mean before or after Revan blows up and/or kills the main method of producing kolto? On top of that, there's no actual difference between kolto and bacta aside from availability. Kolto is produced on one single planet, from one single creature, in one single method with no way to mass produce or copy it on any acceptable scale.

Bacta can be produced by anyone who studies that one particular insect species(their name escapes me at the moment), reproduces the environment, gets one of those non-exotic non-rare beasts from Thyferra and has a lot of time on their hands. Bacta is inherently superior if only because it can be mass produced in this manner. Availability of an equal product means the consumer will flock to that product over a rarer alternative.


In general, I dislike the overemphasis on Jedi.

But Jedi are badass. I, personally, would much rather be a crazy acrobat with MIND BULLETS and a glowing laser sword over a dude with a blaster any day of the week. The KotOR era lets you do that.


And remember, canonically, Calo Nord, HK-47, Jango Fett, Boba Fett, Thrawn and many others without Force Powers have provided sufficient challenges for Jedi without themselves employing the Force.

Calo Nord killed Jedi? First I've heard of that. HK-47 has a clear excuse. He's a droid. He can't be sensed in the Force. This makes him an exceptional assassin for Jedi. Jango/Boba Fett are products of the era. Frankly, Republic-era Jedi suck. Why? Because they've spent 1000 years not doing anything but sitting around and 'mediating' disputes, as such their combat abilities are roughly equivalent to a stormtrooper with a lightsaber. This makes Jango/Boba Fett actual threats to the sucky Jedi. For the precise reason that no one likes playing Jedi in that era. They're all equipped with Idiot Balls.

Also: Thrawn is a ridiculous Gary Stu of epic proportions.

In short: The KotOR era exists for people who like playing characters heads and shoulders above other guys. New Republic? Vong invalidate Jedi. Old Republic? Jedi are idiots. Rebellion? Jedi are dead. Therefore we get KotOR, because it's awesome.

AstralFire
2009-07-18, 02:58 AM
You mean before or after Revan blows up and/or kills the main method of producing kolto? On top of that, there's no actual difference between kolto and bacta aside from availability. Kolto is produced on one single planet, from one single creature, in one single method with no way to mass produce or copy it on any acceptable scale.

A few of the RPG sourcebooks refer to kolto as superior, KotOR's loading tips merely say Bacta hadn't been discovered yet. Either way, it basically means 'little tech advancements on all fronts'.


But Jedi are badass. I, personally, would much rather be a crazy acrobat with MIND BULLETS and a glowing laser sword over a dude with a blaster any day of the week. The KotOR era lets you do that.

Oh, totally. Jedi and armored bounty hunter with a giant energy cannon that's highly trained are two of my favorites. Force powers are great - I don't always have them, but a lot of times I do. But nothing's stopping you from doing that in any other era, either - you can be level 20 in Eberron as much as Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. Era choice changes the ambient number of people like that, though.


Calo Nord killed Jedi? First I've heard of that.

He's an impossible challenge at your expected levels for Taris, he autokills you if you challenge him there. Bastila isn't obtainable at that point, but she's only two levels or so ahead of there, and he's a relatively tough encounter (as tough as most encounters got in that game) when you run into him finally. Malak was easier, relatively speaking. But I did say 'challenge', not 'kill'. :P


HK-47 has a clear excuse. He's a droid. He can't be sensed in the Force. This makes him an exceptional assassin for Jedi. Jango/Boba Fett are products of the era. Frankly, Republic-era Jedi suck.

60 year old Boba Fett can still give Jedi like Jaina Solo trouble in the New Republic/Vong era. And I wouldn't call Obi-Wan sucky - he's not a master at the time Jango Fett beats him, but he was a Padawan when he took out Maul. In general, Jedi aren't all 100 man killing machines, that's just a couple of the really good ones, and that holds in any era. KotOR era? Mira outplayed the Exile, Mandalore the Ultimate put up a damn good fight against the best warrior at the time - Ulic Qel-Droma - and there were several Mandalorian - Jedi conflicts which were narrow. Revan beat the Mandalorians, but it was not a clear victory until the end.


Also: Thrawn is a ridiculous Gary Stu of epic proportions.

YES. HE TOTALLY IS. I LOVE YOU. But it doesn't change the fact that he's one of a number established to give Jedi a headache in either direct encounters or sheer cunning.


New Republic? Vong invalidate Jedi.

Eh, only for the first third of the series. Then the series starts getting good.

Uin
2009-07-18, 03:35 AM
I personally run in Legacy Era:

Original Trilogy feel (2 rebellions of sorts).
An empowered fringe.
Multiple Sith Lords for different plots.
Imperial Knights, so hawt.
A fair deal of politics.
Its a great visual reference for players.

Jerthanis
2009-07-18, 04:32 AM
The only really interesting thing Star Wars has to say is about the Force. Everything else is background to give the philosophy meaning. In the Rebellion era, there are 2 Jedi at a time, and you can't play any of them. In the Clone War era, you can't grow attached to your character because you know you will get ganked like a punk at the end. In the NJO Era, you basically get to be an invincible badass mystic warrior in a world where invincible badass mystic warriors get obliterated as a rule by the series' godmodding zealot antagonists. (The Yuuzhan Vong also make it confusing to talk about the Force with... "It's an energy field that flows between all living things... and flows into every object and point in space... except them... because a planet told them they were evil.")

In the stripe of time between the rebellion era and the NJO, when the Jedi Academy is up and running, but before the Vong show up... a period of about 10 years maybe... IS actually a great time to adventure and philosophize and twirl magic swords... but it's a 10 year period. You're also sharing space with about fifteen larger than life figures who are singlehandedly changing the face of the setting, blowing up stars and so on.

Then there's the Old Republic Era... where you have 4000 years in two directions to play around with. Put a galactic war in if you need one, put a superweapon in without stepping on anyone's toes, have Darth Jujubeans IV working together with a half dozen other Sith to put on a Musical... whatever. You get a lot more creative freedom to tell a lot of different stories... generational stories... stories that take place mostly during galactic peace (Seriously, Star Wars Canon around the movie's timeline has a galaxy shaking conflict every 5 years or so... or alternatively one conflict that rages fairly continuously for almost 40 years)... Stories about the establishment of rules that persist until the movies themselves (Nomi Sunrider, if I recall correctly, was an Old Republic Jedi with a husband and daughter, and no one raised too big a stink about it... the rule about no personal attachments may have come later... just as an example of what I mean.)

Essentially, in Clone Wars, Dark Times, Rebellion, and NJO eras, I can think of maybe five or ten good games that can be possibly run in those time periods. With Old Republic, you have the same setting, but virtually limitless possibility.

How about this question: What do you enjoy running in the Rebellion or New Republic Eras that can't be replicated with Old Republic trappings?

Dixieboy
2009-07-18, 05:49 AM
That's true, but what other large, "organized" political body can field so many lightsaber-wielding force users outside of the Republic? The Sith Empire makes for a great villain organization from a video game point of view since it can offer such a large variety of enemies--from stormtrooper knockoffs to dark jedi to other weird stuff. No other political body from any other Star Wars timeline can really offer that, as far as I know. The Empire can field lots of mooks with blasters, and dark jedi leaders like Desann can field a number of lightsaber wielders, but other than that...
The empire also have jedis

The EU is weird...

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-18, 06:00 AM
A few of the RPG sourcebooks refer to kolto as superior, KotOR's loading tips merely say Bacta hadn't been discovered yet. Either way, it basically means 'little tech advancements on all fronts'.

Same could be said for Old Republic Era to New Republic Era. Heck, the same could be said for every era in the series.


But nothing's stopping you from doing that in any other era, either

Except it doesn't make sense in other eras. Old Republic era comes sort of close, but that's it. Rebel era: All the powerful jedi are dead. New Republic: Jedi are common troops and therefore suck.


he's a relatively tough encounter (as tough as most encounters got in that game) when you run into him finally.

I never had any trouble with him. Turn on an energy shield or use Resist Energy. Laugh as he shoots you ineffectively.


60 year old Boba Fett can still give Jedi like Jaina Solo trouble in the New Republic/Vong era.

I'll have to take your word for that. I never read the New Republic era for long since it annoyed me to no end.


And I wouldn't call Obi-Wan sucky - he's not a master at the time Jango Fett beats him, but he was a Padawan when he took out Maul.

Jango beat Obi-Wan? From what I remember, he held Obi-Wan off and then ran away.


KotOR era? Mira outplayed the Exile

By the power of plot. Straight number comparison, the Exile beats the pants off anyone else ever in the entire game. Having 30+ Wisdom and Force Wave makes the entire game laughably easy.


Revan beat the Mandalorians, but it was not a clear victory until the end.

Actually, according to KotORII it was a clear victory as soon as Revan got involved. She just wasted time because she wanted to make sure everyone whom opposed her died in battle.


YES. HE TOTALLY IS. I LOVE YOU. But it doesn't change the fact that he's one of a number established to give Jedi a headache in either direct encounters or sheer cunning.

Because he's a Gary Stu. If we use that argument then Eragon(the character, not the book series) is an Invincible Sword Princess whom could easily and effortlessly defeat anyone whom ever existed. Because, you know, he's a Gary Stu.


Eh, only for the first third of the series. Then the series starts getting good.

I'll have to take your word on that.

AstralFire
2009-07-18, 07:40 AM
Same could be said for Old Republic Era to New Republic Era. Heck, the same could be said for every era in the series.

Actually, that's one of my points - there are a fair number of steady but noticeable tech improvements from Old to New, but none from 4000 BBY to Clone Wars.


Except it doesn't make sense in other eras. Old Republic era comes sort of close, but that's it. Rebel era: All the powerful jedi are dead. New Republic: Jedi are common troops and therefore suck.

You could... be one of the powerful Jedi? Back before the EU was restricted from doing much in earlier eras, people complained all the time about the power creep of Jedi in this era. Not all of them are exceptional, but Dorsk 82 used his body as the focal point for the force powers of 8 other Knights - and combined they threw away an entire Imperial fleet with Move Object.


I never had any trouble with him. Turn on an energy shield or use Resist Energy. Laugh as he shoots you ineffectively.

Don't have direct trouble with much in that game after a while, but especially with that 'autokill' business it's clear he's supposed to be challenging. Also, the power of plot is slightly more reliable than dealing with mechanics, here, given how KotOR 1 & 2 were designed. If you hacked back in T3-M4, he could probably solo Bastila and Malak in Revan's place assuming you'd stocked up enough on your droid equipment.


Jango beat Obi-Wan? From what I remember, he held Obi-Wan off and then ran away.

I count that as a victory for Jango, since he had control of the fight the entire time and he achieved his goal (getting away) while Obi-Wan did not achieve his primary goal (stopping him to question him more.) Either way, it was certainly a challenging encounter for Ben, which is my point here - you don't have to be a Jedi or Sith to be able to challenge one.


Actually, according to KotORII it was a clear victory as soon as Revan got involved. She just wasted time because she wanted to make sure everyone whom opposed her died in battle.

I'm not talking about Malachor V - and before Revan got involved, that was looking like a loss - I'm talking about the war as a whole. And executing his plan (Exile's female, not Revan, IIRC) the Jedi under his command took devastating losses as well. Definitely a worthy challenge.


Because he's a Gary Stu. If we use that argument then Eragon(the character, not the book series) is an Invincible Sword Princess whom could easily and effortlessly defeat anyone whom ever existed. Because, you know, he's a Gary Stu.

Thrawn's mental capabilities against the rest of the galaxy are confirmed consistently through multiple authors, so his absurd status or not, it's canon. I've never read Eragon; if you mean he can beat anyone else in his universe, maybe. You can't discredit Mary/Gary Stu status when determining in-universe competency.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-18, 10:10 AM
One small correction: Revan's female, Exile's male. The canon is idiotic.

Dixieboy
2009-07-18, 10:24 AM
One small correction: Revan's female, Exile's male. The canon is idiotic.

Exile is the only main character in a star wars game with selectable gender canonized as female. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Exile)

I'm a bit peeved with taht, sure it's fair that there is a female super-jedi somewhere in the canon.
But why the hell do they have to make Brianna non-canon and the Disciple canon?
SRSLY

Kylarra
2009-07-18, 10:29 AM
Exile is the only main character in a star wars game with selectable gender canonized as female. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Exile)

I'm a bit peeved with taht, sure it's fair that there is a female super-jedi somewhere in the canon.
But why the hell do they have to make Brianna non-canon and the Disciple canon?
SRSLYI always hacked her in instead of the disciple when I played.

Talya
2009-07-18, 10:34 AM
Exile is the only main character in a star wars game with selectable gender canonized as female. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Exile)

I'm a bit peeved with taht, sure it's fair that there is a female super-jedi somewhere in the canon.
But why the hell do they have to make Brianna non-canon and the Disciple canon?
SRSLY


They didn't. "Canonically," both Michal and Brianna accompanied the exile, even though she's female and it's impossible for Brianna to accompany a female exile in the game.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Brianna



One small correction: Revan's female, Exile's male. The canon is idiotic.

I tend to think of them both as female, because that's how i played them. Of course, I also think Bastilla was still female Revan's love interest...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-18, 10:36 AM
Exile is the only main character in a star wars game with selectable gender canonized as female. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Exile)I ignore that. As I said, the canon is stupid and wrong. Atris only makes sense if the Exile is male, because then she's the crazy ex rather than just another fallen jedi. And that gets you Brianna rather than the Disciple, who's useless.

Talya
2009-07-18, 10:37 AM
I ignore that. As I said, the canon is stupid and wrong. Atris only makes sense if the Exile is male, because then she's the crazy ex rather than just another fallen jedi.

Or Atris and the Exile were lesbian.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-18, 10:38 AM
Actually, that's one of my points - there are a fair number of steady but noticeable tech improvements from Old to New, but none from 4000 BBY to Clone Wars.

I don't notice any changes between Clone Wars and Rebellion era. So you'll have to explain that one.


You could... be one of the powerful Jedi?

At that point, why not play in KotOR? Same basic set up, less inherent suck in either side and none of that ridiculous Vong crap.


Also, the power of plot is slightly more reliable than dealing with mechanics, here, given how KotOR 1 & 2 were designed.

Revan is an insane Mary Sue in the plot of KotOR 1 and 2. Mechanics is the only basis for comparison and utilizing the mechanics means Calo Nord goes down like a chump.


Either way, it was certainly a challenging encounter for Ben, which is my point here - you don't have to be a Jedi or Sith to be able to challenge one.

I count it as a victory for Obi-Wan, since he finds out what he wanted either way while Jango Fett fails to escape. And the only reason it was challenging was because of Obi-Wan's fighting style. He's a tank. Chasing the speedy guy isn't what tanks do. It's Obi-Wan's suckiness at adaptation which lets Jango escape.


I'm talking about the war as a whole. And executing his plan (Exile's female, not Revan, IIRC) the Jedi under his command took devastating losses as well. Definitely a worthy challenge.

That misses my point entirely. Revan didn't want the Jedi she couldn't trust to win. She made sure they did not. There was no challenge involved as it was a "You lose, Revan wins" scenario. Revan could have very easily defeated the Mandalorians, but she chose to purge the Order's ranks first.


You can't discredit Mary/Gary Stu status when determining in-universe competency.

That's just plain ridiculous. Anyone whom is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu are inherently invincible because the author writes them as such. Therefore we discard it when comparing the merits of two eras. Otherwise you could simply say Luke Skywalker defeats Thrawn because he's a Gary Stu as well. And if Luke Skywalker beats Thrawn then it shows that any Jedi of appropriate power defeats non-Jedi of equal power.

EDIT:


Or Atris and the Exile were lesbian.

Unlikely, the Exile has no options that show him as being aware of Atris' stalker-love.


I tend to think of them both as female, because that's how i played them. Of course, I also think Bastilla was still female Revan's love interest...

I'd think someone as powerful as Revan is supposed to be would have no need for a love interest. They exist so far above and beyond anyone else that it'd be near impossible to see anyone as an equal.

Talya
2009-07-18, 10:40 AM
I don't notice any changes between Clone Wars and Rebellion era. So you'll have to explain that one.



And in fact, most Clone Wars era hardware seems superior to what it is in the original trilogy.

Dixieboy
2009-07-18, 10:40 AM
And in fact, most Clone Wars era hardware seems superior to what it is in the original trilogy.
Which is the point.

Talya
2009-07-18, 10:42 AM
Which is the point.

Yes. The technology of the galaxy is in decay? Maybe not, maybe it's just the draconian empire was stagnant, and its iron grip has prevented the spread of technology. Regardless, I don't see improvements in tech between the Clone Wars and the OT...so my statement about tech stagnation still applies.

AstralFire
2009-07-18, 10:54 AM
One small correction: Revan's female, Exile's male. The canon is idiotic.

...? Um. Does anyone want to fill me in? The biggest difference is your love interests, and none of the love interests really grabbed my attention as su-

Ah, Atris. -shrug- You raise a good point there.


I don't notice any changes between Clone Wars and Rebellion era. So you'll have to explain that one.

I already have in my earlier posts. Going by both fluff -and- statistics, there is a clear progression of superiority in maneuverability, firepower, computing, and durability for the X-Wing family and the Star Destroyer family over this era. Check out either the New Essential Guide (I believe that's the one) or the RPG sourcebook 'Starships of the Galaxy.'


And in fact, most Clone Wars era hardware seems superior to what it is in the original trilogy.

It is. This is explicitly caused by the Empire's stranglehold on development, however, and the Star Destroyers and the Death Star continue to receive improvements during this time period. The TIE Fighters are even an improvement, from the standpoint that they took a type of fighter ideally made for Jedi and simultaneously downscaled it and made it usable by mundanes.

The X-Wing is also a clear improvement from Clone Wars era technology; comparing it to its wartime predecessor the Arc-170 (a crewed fighter) instead of the Z-95 Headhunter (a fighter), it is nearly as competent, cheaper, and only requires 1 person to pilot. The Headhunter, which is pre-Clone Wars, is not in the same league as either. The X-Wing's later models which debut in NJO and then the successor ship, the X-83, are stronger still.


At that point, why not play in KotOR? Same basic set up, less inherent suck in either side and none of that ridiculous Vong crap.

I like the Zong? I like a variety of different encounters in my Star Wars, and they were, along with the Ssi-Ruuvi and many of the one-shot books and X-Wing books in the New Republic era, non-Force powered threats?


I count it as a victory for Obi-Wan, since he finds out what he wanted either way while Jango Fett fails to escape. And the only reason it was challenging was because of Obi-Wan's fighting style. He's a tank. Chasing the speedy guy isn't what tanks do. It's Obi-Wan's suckiness at adaptation which lets Jango escape.

So with a clear instance of a challenge and Obi-Wan getting dragged about on the rainy surface like a scruffy (cute) mop, it has nothing to do with Jango Fett's skills and all to do with unfortunate circumstance? So what about the Bounty Hunter Durge, who I believe has canonically beaten Obi-Wan once and lost to him twice in hard-fought battles. Jedi Master Obi-Wan, no less.


That misses my point entirely. Revan didn't want the Jedi she couldn't trust to win. She made sure they did not. There was no challenge involved as it was a "You lose, Revan wins" scenario. Revan could have very easily defeated the Mandalorians, but she chose to purge the Order's ranks first.

I don't recall this being made out to be quite so simple as you are placing it, but you're still missing my point - before Revan's involvement in the battle, the Jedi were losing. And again, Mandalore the Indomitable was a heck of a tough fight for Ulic Qel-Droma, one of the many very powerful EU Jedi.


That's just plain ridiculous. Anyone whom is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu are inherently invincible because the author writes them as such. Therefore we discard it when comparing the merits of two eras. Otherwise you could simply say Luke Skywalker defeats Thrawn because he's a Gary Stu as well. And if Luke Skywalker beats Thrawn then it shows that any Jedi of appropriate power defeats non-Jedi of equal power.

Yeah, because the author writes them as such, and you know what? None of the dozens of other authors in the universe have ever presented the other generals and admirals at Thrawn's level still. He is continually accepted as the greatest of them, even by the fiery Garm Bel Iblis. That shows a level of consistency in the portrayal.

Dixieboy
2009-07-18, 11:03 AM
Yes. The technology of the galaxy is in decay? Maybe not, maybe it's just the draconian empire was stagnant, and its iron grip has prevented the spread of technology. Regardless, I don't see improvements in tech between the Clone Wars and the OT...so my statement about tech stagnation still applies.Well, there was.

Just not available to the common man/soldier because of the empire.

The empire itself, oh boy, if there was something that wasn't stagnant, it was them.

Let's take a look at weapons and ships, because we all love ships.

The Maw installation alone produced a couple of interesting ones

Metal-Crystal phase shifter (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Metal-Crystal_Phase_Shifter)
The sun crusher.
A ship that was quite impossible to destroy and which main function was to fly into stars,make them 'splode, and then fly out again.
Rinse and repeat (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Crusher)
A ship with such a strong tractor beam that it could pull planets apart (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/World_Devastator)

For something with a bit more of a practical usage
We have
A machine capable of changing the weather, from completely inhabitable to paradise. (And vice versa. This IS the empire after all) (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ion_Ring)

Oh and the two death stars, but you don't need links for those :smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-18, 11:06 AM
Or Atris and the Exile were lesbian.I doubt it. Atris doesn't give off that vibe to me, and the overtones to her speach aren't present if you're playing as a female IMHO. Visas probably was Bi, but that has more to do with, similarly to Bastilla, the fact that she would date the main character whether male, female, or wookie, than with actual orientation.

@The OP: This is the appeal of the era. In the time period starting with the prequels and ending with Legacy, you know what every character from Luke Skywalker to Elan Sleazbaggano was doing from birth to death. There's no freedom. You know exactly what's going on everywhere at all times, and it's hard to avoid running afoul of some bit of cannon that all your players know about and you forgot. In the KotOR era, there's a lot more unknowns running around. A lot of stuff that you can guess at or outright change without messing up anything else.

AstralFire
2009-07-18, 11:21 AM
@The OP: This is the appeal of the era. In the time period starting with the prequels and ending with Legacy, you know what every character from Luke Skywalker to Elan Sleazbaggano was doing from birth to death. There's no freedom. You know exactly what's going on everywhere at all times, and it's hard to avoid running afoul of some bit of canon that all your players know about and you forgot. In the KotOR era, there's a lot more unknowns running around. A lot of stuff that you can guess at or outright change without messing up anything else.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I personally have no trouble running over the canon when it becomes more of a nuisance than a pleasure, and I don't play with anyone who's a stickler for sticking to the canon if the game starts to go divergent... but thanks for the recap. :) Think we've spun off into me against the KotOR-era lovers in a critical look at the respective eras now, though. (Hooray, I have some back up on the technology point now, though. Thanks Dixie.)

Good way to pass the time, at least.

Kiero
2009-07-18, 11:27 AM
Huge, wide-open setting, with nary a Skywalker in sight. Jedi as they should be, Sith pre-Bane's garbage.

I can do what I like, yet still have support of events that happened in the past, and the general flavour and theme of the time. Without it being anything like the dull, tired, used-up movies eras.

Bioware managed something pretty special: capturing the feel of Star Wars, without regurjitating the characters from the OT.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-07-18, 12:15 PM
One small correction: Revan's female, Exile's male. The canon is idiotic.


The Jedi Exile was a Human female Jedi Knight


Revan was a Jedi Knight and General during the Mandalorian Wars. A Human male once known by the nickname the Revanchist

From Wookiepedia. You had'em backwards there.



....What? That's all I had to contribute.

Gralamin
2009-07-18, 12:31 PM
From Wookiepedia. You had'em backwards there.



....What? That's all I had to contribute.

He said the canon is idiotic.

Personally, I have no problem with the canon, and Atris is just a crazy witch anyway.

ashmanonar
2009-07-18, 12:36 PM
While I haven't played KotOR, our group was able to play a pretty fun campaign set in the Clone Wars. The premise was simple: the only girl in our group played the jedi, and the rest of us were her clonetrooper squad.

I bet Order 66 was awkward.

Da'Shain
2009-07-18, 03:27 PM
I ignore that. As I said, the canon is stupid and wrong. Atris only makes sense if the Exile is male, because then she's the crazy ex rather than just another fallen jedi. And that gets you Brianna rather than the Disciple, who's useless.Er ... first of all, the canon is canon. It might be stupid, but it's certainly not wrong in the context of the Expanded Universe, because that's what happened.

Second, Atris makes perfect sense if the Exile is female. You don't need to be a crazy ex to hero-worship someone, which is what the game itself says was the case for Atris. I thought it was actually refreshing that Atris wasn't the stereotypical scorned woman that hell hath no fury like (Kreia fit that bill far better anyway). She simultaneously condemned the Exile for going against the will of the council and what Atris herself believed she exemplified, and secretly wished she could bring herself to do the same as her idol, which led her to become twisted and give in to Sith teachings.

Third, Brianna's more interesting in the context of the game, but she's basically just a good bruiser and will remain one later as a Jedi. The Disciple actually has the knowledge necessary to help the Exile rebuild the Order and prop the Republic up while it fixes itself. In terms of overall good done, the Disciple will likely be a far better choice, although canon is that both Brianna and the Disciple chose to follow the Exile despite the game only allowing you one of them.


EDIT: On technology in the SW universe being stagnant ... yes and no. It's true that very few actually new inventions are made, possibly owing the fact that the SW galaxy has existed for millennia as a spacefaring population and has discovered most of what there is to discover about the laws of physics. However, the existing technology is continually being refined and employed in new ways. The eventual phasing out of personal shielding is a testament to this; blaster technology has improved over the years until the cost of a personal energy shield that can actually withstand a single shot is prohibitively expensive, whereas during the KotOR era they were relatively common among standing armies with less powerful blasters. And as has been pointed out, other examples exist as to technology improving, even if it does not revolutionize and change in leaps and bounds as we have seen happen in our own previous centuries.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-18, 03:47 PM
Going by both fluff -and- statistics, there is a clear progression of superiority in maneuverability, firepower, computing, and durability for the X-Wing family and the Star Destroyer family over this era.

Guess you have a point there. So there was change in a starfighter family and a single battleship design.


I like the Zong? I like a variety of different encounters in my Star Wars, and they were, along with the Ssi-Ruuvi and many of the one-shot books and X-Wing books in the New Republic era, non-Force powered threats?

Actually, the Zong/Vong/whatever were only a threat because the Force couldn't be used on them. IE: They're only a threat because they were Deus Ex'd to be a threat. In my opinion, that doesn't make a very good enemy. Plus, I hate them.


So with a clear instance of a challenge and Obi-Wan getting dragged about on the rainy surface like a scruffy (cute) mop, it has nothing to do with Jango Fett's skills and all to do with unfortunate circumstance?

Yes, because Obi-Wan was not interested in merely killing Jango Fett. For a man who uses blasters to be facing off against someone who trains for the exact purpose of not being harmed, Jango Fett was against the wall from the beginning. Were Obi-Wan terribly interested in his death, then reflecting any of the multiple shots Jango fired off would have been the end of him. Or simply pulling him closer with the Force. But no, Obi-Wan wanted him alive and questionable.


So what about the Bounty Hunter Durge, who I believe has canonically beaten Obi-Wan once and lost to him twice in hard-fought battles. Jedi Master Obi-Wan, no less.

You mean the time he tried to swallow Obi-Wan and got blown up with the Force? Or the time his entire group of lancers(which was an idiotic idea to begin with, come on) got blown up? Or the time Obi-Wan just had all the clones shoot him rather than denign to get involved himself? Or when he literally disarmed Durge? Durge was never a threat. He was a joke. A dude that cannot die is also a dude that cannot kill.


before Revan's involvement in the battle, the Jedi were losing.

The Jedi weren't involved until Revan got involved. Once Revan--and by proxy the Revanchist--got involved the war was decided. There were no Jedi fighting for the Republic at that point because the Order wanted to hold off and wait for the actual threat(read, the Sith they thought were pushing the Mandalorians into battle like last time) showed itself.


And again, Mandalore the Indomitable was a heck of a tough fight for Ulic Qel-Droma, one of the many very powerful EU Jedi.

I wouldn't know, I was too busy watching Exar Kun blow up suns.


Yeah, because the author writes them as such, and you know what? None of the dozens of other authors in the universe have ever presented the other generals and admirals at Thrawn's level still. He is continually accepted as the greatest of them, even by the fiery Garm Bel Iblis. That shows a level of consistency in the portrayal.

Again, that is utterly irrelevant. We're not comparing Thrawn to other non-Jedi. We're coming Thrawn to Jedi. The scenario goes like this: Thrawn's at his capital ship just chilling, then Luke Skywalker walks in, busts his kneecaps and makes Thrawn his gimp. Possibly add in some angst somewhere. Because that's how Gary Stus work.


Er ... first of all, the canon is canon. It might be stupid, but it's certainly not wrong in the context of the Expanded Universe, because that's what happened.

The canon's stupid and therefore ignored.


Second, Atris makes perfect sense if the Exile is female.

There was no hero-worship. Atris loved the Exile. She didn't like the Exile, she didn't find the Exile to be interesting and she sure didn't merely enjoy the Exile's presence. She loved him probably as much as Kreia did. So when he betrayed the Order, she felt he betrayed her and this love turned to hate.

Reverent-One
2009-07-18, 04:02 PM
Actually, the Zong/Vong/whatever were only a threat because the Force couldn't be used on them. IE: They're only a threat because they were Deus Ex'd to be a threat. In my opinion, that doesn't make a very good enemy. Plus, I hate them.

And also because their technology was radically different than what the governments in the galaxy were used to, and had a lot of advatages they had to get used to.


The canon's stupid and therefore ignored.

So in other words, any evidence you don't like and doesn't agree with your arguments is ignored. :smallconfused:

Yora
2009-07-18, 04:19 PM
But it's true: Star Wars is probably one of the greatest ideas of the 4000 year history of human fiction. But George Lucas is an awful storyteller and director, and lots of the B-Canon writers have... "unique" ideas how to write stories that are both great to read and fit into the whole.

Some years ago, there was this great article: Star Wars fans hate Star Wars (http://www.jivemagazine.com/column.php?pid=3381) :smallbiggrin:

The movies are awful, most of the comics are worse, many games suck, and there are only some novels which are really great books to read. And probably nobody is aware of that as much as the true diehard fans. But we're putting up with it, because the idea is so unbelievable awsome!

And to get to the opening question: I think the Old Republic era embodies best, what makes Star Wars so great. Everything is still much more fluid and not as set in stone as in the imperial and new republic era. In the movie-era or the time after that, there are so many rules and restrictions what a jedi has to be. But in the Old Republic, the Jedi are just one order of force users, that's pretty big and has very good relation with the government. But they don't have a monopoly on the force and most of their rules are more like "guidelines" and you don't get the inquisition coming after you if you decide to become active without the consent of the council.
And though the Republic is really big, there are still many places that are not part of the republic, or where the republic is just a name without any actual meaning for the locals.
Also, at least to me, it seems that the galaxy isn't as well mapped yet. There are the main trade routes and big centers of commerce, but once you stray from there, its completely impossible to say what you might find. I think that makes it much more fun than the New Republic era, which is just like modern earth with space instead of oceans.

AstralFire
2009-07-18, 05:54 PM
The movies are awful, most of the comics are worse, many games suck, and there are only some novels which are really great books to read. And probably nobody is aware of that as much as the true diehard fans. But we're putting up with it, because the idea is so unbelievable awsome!

Thanks for bit on explaining why, but as I said in the edited post... picked that up a bit ago. ;) I have to say though, that while a lot of this stuff is no work of art, I rather enjoy it. I first learned of Star Wars when I was 11 years old and I've enjoyed myself at all six of the feature films - pointed out their many flaws, but enjoyed myself. Same for a lot of the books. I've never met another fandom that expresses such bile for the core of their affection. It's kind of strange. Even with my dissatisfactions over KotOR, I enjoyed it on the whole.


Guess you have a point there. So there was change in a starfighter family and a single battleship design.

I could keep out throwing out examples all day if I wanted to, but I don't. The point is clear - in the wake of conflict, the galaxy's technology DOES improve. But despite all the conflict during those 4000 years, there ends up being basically very little net improvement, essentially immeasurable. That's contradictory.


Actually, the Zong/Vong/whatever were only a threat because the Force couldn't be used on them. IE: They're only a threat because they were Deus Ex'd to be a threat. In my opinion, that doesn't make a very good enemy. Plus, I hate them.

They also had a high level of training, had watched and learned about the galaxy's technologies for years, had a pre-emptive attack, and were not in a still unstable, baby government.


You mean the time he tried to swallow Obi-Wan and got blown up with the Force? Or the time his entire group of lancers(which was an idiotic idea to begin with, come on) got blown up? Or the time Obi-Wan just had all the clones shoot him rather than denign to get involved himself? Or when he literally disarmed Durge? Durge was never a threat. He was a joke. A dude that cannot die is also a dude that cannot kill.

That was all one fight. And considering he and Asajj Ventress paired up killed 3 of 4 Jedi Masters and nearly killed Obi-Wan too - would have if not for a heroic sacrifice - I'd say he's a bit more than a joke. You don't call anyone who manages to give Obi-Wan Kenobi a hell of a workout even in a loss a joke. Durge injured Kenobi more significantly than Anakin did in the battle of Mustafar, and while you can certainly call him a joke in many ways, capability is very explicitly not one of them.

Regarding Jango Fett - Obi-Wan doesn't use Shien, and he doesn't use Niman. Soresu is an inherent part of how he fights. That means lethal deflection of blaster bolts is not his focus and not likely to happen in a one on one, and same for the 'pulling slash'. He wasn't even fighting Darth Vader with lethal intent on either duel, and he's been tempted the least of anyone but Yoda by the dark side, afaik. He's not going to take that lethal approach and I'm not sure he'd fight so well if he did. As Mace Windu says to Obi-Wan, his fighting style answers a part of him.

Moreover, mechanically, quite a few players can't afford to take Redirect Shot. If you were to model that fight mechanically, in fact, the Jedi not designed specifically to counter blaster hordes would lose at an equal level quite often due to lack of non-homebrew abilities for flight options, the high level of mobility rocket jumper soldiers have, and the limited range of move object. It gets worse if our NPC bounty hunter was equipped more for Jedi killing than general bounty hunting, since that means more emphasis on missiles and blaster cannons - weapons that can't be redirected and deliver area damage. But now I'm digressing.


The Jedi weren't involved until Revan got involved. Once Revan--and by proxy the Revanchist--got involved the war was decided. There were no Jedi fighting for the Republic at that point because the Order wanted to hold off and wait for the actual threat(read, the Sith they thought were pushing the Mandalorians into battle like last time) showed itself.

None of that changes the fact that in the battle of Malachor V, up until Revan showed up, the Jedi were slowly but surely losing against the Mandalorians, and the battle was completed by forcing both fleets to crash into the planet suddenly. The Jedi may not have been involved in the war effort in a significant way prior to Revan's entry, but the Mandalorians of all people have been thoroughly proven and are widely accepted to be able to give any Jedi not on their toes a hard run for their money, and the portrayals of battles are consistent with this - and really, the more you emphasize that Revan was purposely letting a lot of them die, the more you make the average Jedi out to be like the cannon fodder Padawans and Knights (and the more diplomatic masters, like Coleman Trebor) from the PT.


Again, that is utterly irrelevant. We're not comparing Thrawn to other non-Jedi. We're coming Thrawn to Jedi. The scenario goes like this: Thrawn's at his capital ship just chilling, then Luke Skywalker walks in, busts his kneecaps and makes Thrawn his gimp. Possibly add in some angst somewhere. Because that's how Gary Stus work.

No, it's not irrelevant - it's not irrelevant because Thrawn doesn't -have- to win in a fist fight, and he most surely never engages in one that I recall. He knows how to use numbers and situations to his advantage. Think Batman Wizard. The Fighter who gets within 30 feet of him and wins Init will destroy him. The Fighter doesn't get that chance. I'm talking about more than just the ability to win a one-on-one fight here, campaigns aren't composed solely of duels. Not to mention that starship combat is considered a big part of the setting and the rules.

You like the Old Republic setting? That's great for you, but my case is very thoroughly rested. You do not need to resort to it to have antagonists capable of matching and challenging the Jedi. My expectation that 4,000 years ago would be a little more different is justified considering the change the Galaxy undergoes in a mere 120. At this point I could start rifling my sourcebooks to keep this up, but your arguments are majorly resting on "I didn't pay attention to that" or "That's stupid". Unless you care to start actually citing things and making cogent argument rather than dismissively shrugging opposing points off because you don't like them, I'm not going to persist any further in discussion with you.

Kiero
2009-07-18, 07:10 PM
The movies are awful, most of the comics are worse,

Evidently you haven't read the "new" KotOR comics, which are brilliant. Best Star Wars comics by far. We have a Jedi who at the start is totally inept, yet undeniably a hero. Apart from the awful-across-every-franchise Vector storyline, it's note-perfect.

Jerthanis
2009-07-19, 06:05 AM
So in other words, any evidence you don't like and doesn't agree with your arguments is ignored. :smallconfused:

To be entirely fair... the choice to make the Exile canonically female is based on an offhand mention of a "she" line in a sourcebook about droids that includes information on G0T0, one of the robot sidekicks of Kotor 2.

His argument is that the story is better with the Exile being male... MUCH better. Maybe not infinitely better, but significantly. Why should we accept that the story is less interesting just because someone writing about robots used a female pronoun instead of a male one when gender-neutral-singular pronouns don't exist in common usage of the English language?

If a choice must be made for them to have a canonical gender, Revan being female and the Exile being male would be my choice a thousand times over. Revan was the one who was never broken, even when she was broken... The Exile was the one who was shattered, but was strong enough to move on. My impression is that Revan is a stereotyped 'masculine' hero and The Exile is a stereotyped 'feminine' hero, so it tickles me to think it was inverted. I'd still prefer it left non-canonized, but Star Wars is a fandom of nothing if not a stickler for every possible detail.

Yora
2009-07-19, 06:21 AM
Evidently you haven't read the "new" KotOR comics
They are the reason I wrote "most" and not all. ^^

Kiero
2009-07-19, 10:59 AM
They are the reason I wrote "most" and not all. ^^

Fair enough. I'm with you then, I don't much rate the rest, including Legacy that some people rave about. Read them all, don't think a lot of it.

Da'Shain
2009-07-19, 11:37 AM
Yes, because Obi-Wan was not interested in merely killing Jango Fett. For a man who uses blasters to be facing off against someone who trains for the exact purpose of not being harmed, Jango Fett was against the wall from the beginning. Were Obi-Wan terribly interested in his death, then reflecting any of the multiple shots Jango fired off would have been the end of him. Or simply pulling him closer with the Force. But no, Obi-Wan wanted him alive and questionable.The whole point of Jango's fighting style in that scene was making sure Obi-wan couldn't do that. It's the reason he continues firing and moving at essentially all times, changing his tactics when one thing or another doesn't work. It's not impossible for someone to be good enough with a blaster to foil Jedi; he happens to be one of them, as evidenced by his killing of Coleman Trebor later as well as him killing several Jedi at once in his backstory.


The canon's stupid and therefore ignored.I can just as easily say that your opinion's stupid and therefore ignored. It's not exactly a point so much as a "Na na na I can't hear you!"


There was no hero-worship. Atris loved the Exile. She didn't like the Exile, she didn't find the Exile to be interesting and she sure didn't merely enjoy the Exile's presence. She loved him probably as much as Kreia did. So when he betrayed the Order, she felt he betrayed her and this love turned to hate.Yes, there was. Play the game as a female, which is the canonical choice. Hero-worship means you believe someone to be a paragon, an exemplar to model your own life after; it's not merely finding someone "interesting" and enjoying their presence. And Kreia didn't love the Exile romantically even if he was male, so that comparison doesn't really help.

EDIT:
His argument is that the story is better with the Exile being male... MUCH better. Maybe not infinitely better, but significantly. Why should we accept that the story is less interesting just because someone writing about robots used a female pronoun instead of a male one when gender-neutral-singular pronouns don't exist in common usage of the English language?Perhaps I'm just failing to see how the story is less interesting because of the hero's sex. With a male Exile, we get Atris just being a jilted lover who decided to go evil, a handmaiden follower that adds nothing beyond some romantic tension and an extra bodyguard, and a Sion who gets talked to death. With a female Exile, we get Atris having her entire worldview shattered when the Exile "betrays" the Order, an historian follower that will actually tell you things about the galaxy that's in ruins and suggest ways for you to fix it as well as nearly figuring out Kreia's plans, and a Sion who's undone by his infatuation with her weakening his resolve until he can be talked to death. I personally find the latter far more interesting.

And we should accept it because it's what happened in the Star Wars universe. If you're discussing the Star Wars universe, as this thread seems to be, then certain things happened; they are not malleable. If you're merely discussing Star Wars as a setting for RPGs then you're free to mold it however you see fit; you'll just be deviating from canon. Which, in a few cases, is a good thing (LotF/Legacy eras, I'm looking at you), but still make your game firmly Infinities.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-07-19, 03:56 PM
I'm currently playing through KOTOR II, and it's reaffirming everything I like about that time period. At that point in history, the Jedi aren't stagnant, which seemed to be what they were during the Clone Wars, the Sith are a real threat, and there isn't the rest of the canon baggage.

I've never understood some of the manipulations Kreia uses in the game though. With characters like Colonel Tobin, Atton or Mandalore it was obvious what she wanted, but what does she get from reviving Hanharr and sending him to Malachor V so he can fight and hopefully kill Mira? Kreia never even seems to have any interest in Mira aside from that cutscene. She never even talks about her. What was the point?! :smallconfused:

Yora
2009-07-19, 03:57 PM
Cut content?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-07-19, 04:00 PM
That seems a likely answer, except I don't recall reading anything about cut content relating to that plot thread.

Mitth'raw'nuruo
2009-07-19, 06:06 PM
Unlike the Dark Lords of the Sith/Ulic Qel-Droma era which are baised on comic books (some of which made VERY good audio books). KoTOR is easy to find/buy/steal/barrow.

KoTor is popular because it has nothing to do with EPI1,2,3.

ALOT of Star Wars fans hate Lucas for making Ep1-2-3

ALOT of Star wars fans can not stand anything to do with those movies, as Game Master - it makes it impossible to set things in the 100 years or so when Palatine was rising to power

It is hard to set things in the Rebellion era because players who are familiar with the "prequqels" think people should remember the Jedi; or think foldly of the Old Republic; or even remember a goverment before the Galatic Empire. Simply put; by cannon - people DO NOT. The only ones that do are people who live extra long (wookies; Jedi)

Settings things in the New Republic era is hard; because if you have 1 or 2 players that are into Star Wars, and familiar with the EU content- they can greatly out shine other players because they have a great deal of knowledge that would be considered common in the SW universe.

(Grand Admiral Thrawn's Campaign, Admiral Daala's campaign, locations of major shipyards, products of different worlds; names of ships; how technology works etc.)

New Jedi Order: To really use the Yuzzhan vong; the GM must have read the series; I think that is the main reason it is not used. Other then that, it is a good starting point.

After that......again; I am not familiar with anything more then 30 years ABY, so I would have trouble running that campaign....


(FOR the RECORD: Emperor Palpatine was a Dark Jedi; no a Sith Lord)
(Not all Dark Jedi are Sith, Not all evil Force users are Dark Jedi)
(The Republic fought against clones, not with them)
(EP1-2-3 are set in a very bad alternate time line [LUCAS as said this] yes, it has much in common with the new star trek movie (lots of computer special effects; lack of plot):smallmad:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-19, 10:25 PM
(FOR the RECORD: Emperor Palpatine was a Dark Jedi; no a Sith Lord)
(Not all Dark Jedi are Sith, Not all evil Force users are Dark Jedi)
(The Republic fought against clones, not with them)
(EP1-2-3 are set in a very bad alternate time line [LUCAS has said this]???
Is this just more hatred for canon, or is there something more going on that I was unaware of?

Jerthanis
2009-07-20, 05:14 AM
Yes, there was. Play the game as a female, which is the canonical choice. Hero-worship means you believe someone to be a paragon, an exemplar to model your own life after; it's not merely finding someone "interesting" and enjoying their presence. And Kreia didn't love the Exile romantically even if he was male, so that comparison doesn't really help.

Here's why this doesn't work: The Exile was not a Master, Atris was. Why would a Jedi Master decide a Jedi Knight was a paragon, an exemplar to model one's own life after?



EDIT:Perhaps I'm just failing to see how the story is less interesting because of the hero's sex. With a male Exile, we get Atris just being a jilted lover who decided to go evil, a handmaiden follower that adds nothing beyond some romantic tension and an extra bodyguard, and a Sion who gets talked to death. With a female Exile, we get Atris having her entire worldview shattered when the Exile "betrays" the Order, an historian follower that will actually tell you things about the galaxy that's in ruins and suggest ways for you to fix it as well as nearly figuring out Kreia's plans, and a Sion who's undone by his infatuation with her weakening his resolve until he can be talked to death. I personally find the latter far more interesting.

Sure, the game isn't a wholly different experience depending on Gender, and it isn't a wildly divergent timeline based on the choice... there's really only a few minor details as a difference, and I liked Disciple almost as much as Handmaiden. (Although the reason why was that they were both failures until they met the Exile, who inspired them to be the heroes they both could be.)... but I seriously take issue with your portrayal of the Sion fight as better with a female perspective.
"My character concept is that I loved Kreia as my master, but she ignored me for more promising students, so I turned my back on her teachings and now cling to Pain as the only thing keeping me alive." "You've seen me exactly once in the flesh before right now, and now you love me." "You're Right!" *Falls apart* was just... I said to my screen in a dumbstruck manner, "Did I just win with the Power of Love?"

Meanwhile, as a male it was like this: "I could fight you forever, my pain makes me immortal" "I could fight you forever, the Force is my ally" "Let us debate philosophy until one of us doubts enough to fall" it was truly a battle resolved through faith, which is what it was supposed to be, rather than a battle resolved through sex appeal

Also, what made Atris' love story great was that I think the game was trying to say that she was unaware that she was in love with the Exile... that the Jedi Order's sublimation of feelings caused people to be unaware of the emotions they were actively feeling, and this plays into the overarching metaplot of the game by giving an observable parallel to the idea that a Jedi without the force was like a blind child... that a Jedi had never opened her eyes to emotions, and could not understand them, similar to how a Jedi who had never been without the force could not understand its lack.



And we should accept it because it's what happened in the Star Wars universe. If you're discussing the Star Wars universe, as this thread seems to be, then certain things happened; they are not malleable. If you're merely discussing Star Wars as a setting for RPGs then you're free to mold it however you see fit; you'll just be deviating from canon. Which, in a few cases, is a good thing (LotF/Legacy eras, I'm looking at you), but still make your game firmly Infinities.

No, we shouldn't. Accepting what's handed to us without examination, without debate, is something that no one should do for anything. If you never ask, "Would it be a better story if...?" then you aren't fully interacting with the text.

Also, by your own admission, the story isn't different based on gender, so why do you insist on following a canon established in an offhand, uncaring manner when ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway? I maintain it should've never been canonically established, because no matter which way they chose, it'd fly against the preferences of approximately 50% of the people who care at all.

Mitth'raw'nuruo
2009-07-20, 05:42 AM
Not hatred of cannon. I actually love cannon & the fact that star wars has a story with many different writers that all tied in together. What I (and alot of older star wars fans) can not stand is that Lucas ignored EVERYTHING that anyone else had ever written, and said "I am writing what I want, I am making the movies an alternate universe universe from the rest of expanded universe "like star trek".

There was a time when every trading card - computer game - comic book - TOY. HAD to follow the time line, regardless of the hoops; lucas literally made hundreds of people do tons of research before writing, and then he says "eh I am to lazy to care about what other people wrote; I do not want to have to make sure I get facts correct or tell a coherent story."

Before EP1 Palpatine was never described as a Dark Lord. Vader was repeatedly mentioned as The Dark Lord of the Sith - and since the time of Darth Bane and the rule of a Master and an apprentice- and the Master was the only one with the title of Dark Lord of the Sith.

The Sith were once a unique race; they not only dabbled in Dark side Force use, but alchemy and sorcery. Sith teachings were unique. Jedi had fallen to the Dark Side long before the Sith were discovered; and many Jedi would fall without ever interacting with the Sith.

Palpatine was a Dark side force user; a extremely powerful one, but he was not a Dark Lord of the Sith. It is possible that he was not a Dark Jedi. Vader alone is known to held these distinctions during the movies.

(Note; As much as I hate EP1; Darth Maul may actually have been a Sith Warror)


Throughout the books published before episode one; the clone wars are talked about; timelines are presented; and it is always presented as if the Republic fought against the clones.

It was also well documented that Storm troopers were recruited. (Kyp Durron's brother, Joak Quiller, Saberan Marcross; Korlo Brightwater, Daric LaRone & Taxtro Grave, the last 5 discussed how they are NOT clones). Also; Luke Skywalker notes troops used by Grand Admiral Thrawn give off an usually force aura - he later finds out they are clones. Normal Imperal troops (TIE Pilots; Storm Troopers; officers and so on - give off no such aura).

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-20, 07:09 AM
Palpatine was a Dark side force user; a extremely powerful one, but he was not a Dark Lord of the Sith. It is possible that he was not a Dark Jedi. Vader alone is known to held these distinctions during the movies.

(Note; As much as I hate EP1; Darth Maul may actually have been a Sith Warror)

I'd say, having never convincingly had any depiction of ACTUAL sith, that I recall, that Palpatine could well have been a Sith, in fact. Maybe not. I certainly agree, he was not a Dark Jedi.
Going by the movies, at least, there is the concept that he never had anything to do with the Jedi, which fits. I always got the general idea myself, though, before the prequels, that he probably hadn't been anything to do with them.

Also, Maul is pretty irrelevant to me. He came from no-where, did nothing, and meant less. He existed only to provide a fight scene and something for the makeup department to play with. It doesn't suprise me that there's no obvious, canon line on wtf he was supposed to be.

And yes, wars vs clones does have a lot more coolness in it than vica versa. Though I'm sure I recall one of the EU books having (luke?) come across the emperor's cloning facility. Admittedly, I remember very little about that, however.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-07-20, 08:05 AM
Here's why this doesn't work: The Exile was not a Master, Atris was. Why would a Jedi Master decide a Jedi Knight was a paragon, an exemplar to model one's own life after?
It's not unheard of for a person to find qualities in their subordinates they wish they had. Zez-Kai Ell states that he began to believe that Jedi did have flaws. Kavar mentions something similar. Atris could well have seen the Exile as a pinnacle of the righteousness of the Jedi, despite being a Master herself, a view that was shattered when the Exile went to war. Atris herself says "We all have our heroes. And when they fall, we die inside." The Exile was Atris's vision of the perfect Jedi, and then the Exile goes and shows she has human failings, ruining Atris's perfect image. For some people, that can feel like a personal betrayal, especially if they knew the object of their hero-worship personally.

Sure, the game isn't a wholly different experience depending on Gender, and it isn't a wildly divergent timeline based on the choice... there's really only a few minor details as a difference, and I liked Disciple almost as much as Handmaiden. (Although the reason why was that they were both failures until they met the Exile, who inspired them to be the heroes they both could be.)... but I seriously take issue with your portrayal of the Sion fight as better with a female perspective.
"My character concept is that I loved Kreia as my master, but she ignored me for more promising students, so I turned my back on her teachings and now cling to Pain as the only thing keeping me alive." "You've seen me exactly once in the flesh before right now, and now you love me." "You're Right!" *Falls apart* was just... I said to my screen in a dumbstruck manner, "Did I just win with the Power of Love?"

Meanwhile, as a male it was like this: "I could fight you forever, my pain makes me immortal" "I could fight you forever, the Force is my ally" "Let us debate philosophy until one of us doubts enough to fall" it was truly a battle resolved through faith, which is what it was supposed to be, rather than a battle resolved through sex appeal

Also, what made Atris' love story great was that I think the game was trying to say that she was unaware that she was in love with the Exile... that the Jedi Order's sublimation of feelings caused people to be unaware of the emotions they were actively feeling, and this plays into the overarching metaplot of the game by giving an observable parallel to the idea that a Jedi without the force was like a blind child... that a Jedi had never opened her eyes to emotions, and could not understand them, similar to how a Jedi who had never been without the force could not understand its lack.
I wonder, is it possible ingame for the Exile to reciprocate Atris's feelings if male? Every time I've played a male Exile I find myself making kissyface with the Handmaiden.

No, we shouldn't. Accepting what's handed to us without examination, without debate, is something that no one should do for anything. If you never ask, "Would it be a better story if...?" then you aren't fully interacting with the text.

Also, by your own admission, the story isn't different based on gender, so why do you insist on following a canon established in an offhand, uncaring manner when ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway? I maintain it should've never been canonically established, because no matter which way they chose, it'd fly against the preferences of approximately 50% of the people who care at all.
I agree. The game is just as enjoyable regardless of the Exile's gender. Indeed, I played it both ways just to see if I could spot the differences. There weren't too many.

I refuse to play a Dark Sider though. That always makes me feel guilty and maybe even a little bit ill.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-20, 08:08 AM
I refuse to play a Dark Sider though. That always makes me feel guilty and maybe even a little bit ill.

This made me chuckle. Thank you. :)
(For the record, I rarely actually play through such games as 'teh evil' but mostly because the options are DUMB rather than just dark. Really, dualistic black and white alignment is the death of choice in most such rpg's.)

Drakyn
2009-07-20, 09:46 AM
This made me chuckle. Thank you. :)
(For the record, I rarely actually play through such games as 'teh evil' but mostly because the options are DUMB rather than just dark. Really, dualistic black and white alignment is the death of choice in most such rpg's.)

I think the whole point of Kreia's injection into the plot was to tone it down a bit, with her neverending constant incessant frequent preaching on how the only way to get anything done in the universe was to be a manipulative jerk. The problem with this is that you can successfully work through the game equally as effective while actively helping people, which sort of screws her point. Except that it pisses her off and you miss out on some of the more obscure plot points because you lose Hagpoints (TM).

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 10:31 AM
I loved Kreia for that. I've always been more able to relate to the dark side when it's presented less as the 'quick and easy and completely irrational caveman path', and more as the 'practical and more reliable path that sometimes requires collateral damage.' I'd never understand how anyone besides a sociopath gets tempted to the Dark Side when it's presented as the former (most of KotOR 1, and to be fair, a lot of KotOR 2 still, Kreia/Mandalore/G0-T0 notwithstanding.)

Drakyn
2009-07-20, 10:37 AM
The thing about Kreia seems to be that whether or not you like KotOR II is pretty tied up in what you think about her. She practically carries more of the story than the player, and a good portion of her actions are taken outside of player control, where you can't say anything (or do anything) about them. If you like her twist on the standard star wars morality, the argument of evil by necessity, and her manipulation of everyone around you, the game's brilliant. If you think she's an annoying old hag who's incredibly genre blind to her own setting and cannot be persuaded by Force or logic to any reasoning other than her own, who claims you did everything she wanted you to no matter what the game's content, you will be angry with the entire game.

EDIT: And yes, the "I will kick this puppy so my Force Lightning becomes more powerful" is a really inelegant way to handle dark sideness. There's more to being evil than being a jerk. Then again, given how much of an RPG is spent helping people through sidequests, I guess there has to be SOME way to make you hurt rather than help, unless they want the few actively thought-out and malicious decisions to shoot you halfway into dark side from maxxed light.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 10:48 AM
As an aside - I know Star Wars has the Light Side of the Force as the good side and the Dark Side of the Force as the unbalanced bits, but I always wished it was played out more like Asian philosophy/Jacen's fears in NJO/how Jade Empire was SUPPOSED to work. (Jade Empire had a few good plot points, but the 'it's not good/evil' good/evil system wasn't one of them. Bioware never managed to make an unqualified good impression on me until I played Mass Effect.)

That is to say, the Light Side is the passive side, the Dark Side is the active side, and going too much to one or the other is ineffective. The overall result would still be a tilt towards Light Side since it's probably easier to correct going off-balance when you're in that direction, but not a domination of it.

Drakyn
2009-07-20, 11:02 AM
I think the problem with that approach, specifically as it was handled by Kreia in KotOR II, is that it means that the dark side becomes "I did what I had to do, even though it was mean." Which sounds okay, but in an CRPG situation it gets murky, because then there's two ways it can go:
(1): That really was the best option. Sure, it meant lying to four people in a way that got at least one of them killed, but it was the best way. The issue here is that this means is that even if the player could think of a less depressing way themselves, the game won't let them/will handwave it (sort of a moral version of fallout 3's original ending).
(2): The game will anticipate the above and let there be a third, less painful option. This completely destroys any semblence of the "I did what I had to do" philosophy, because the way the game's set up will explicitly tell you this as much so as it does the other options, and reverts it to "there's always another way," which is just as absolute.
One way you're railroading, the other you're sending mixed signals.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 11:14 AM
The only problem with (1) is if that's inexplicably the case for every situation. Having some plots where dealing everything in the Light Side way screws you and others where dealing everything in the Dark Side way screws you would be good.

Drakyn
2009-07-20, 11:28 AM
I'm not so sure about it, but I can't see anything wrong with it, so I am forced to agree with you completely :smallfurious: THAT IS NOT WHAT THE INTERNET IS FOR.
The only way I could see that being a bad thing is if the entire game ends up selling the premise of "both sides suck," which is a similar act of judgement from above. That was my main Kreia-beef: she codified "appropriate actions" in the game, if only because there was no way to change her mind and she ultimately said that you'd done what she wanted regardless of whether you agreed with her or not. Having a big author-finger hovering over your shoulder proclaiming whatever message it is that they're imparting to you today is fine, but you should at least get the option to ignore/subvert/actively screw it over in the very end, even if it's just out of contrariness.
In the end, though, I think we can all agree on one thing: Jolee is a funny old guy.

EDIT: And drawing from that conclusion, KotOR era's appeal stems entirely from it having a funny old guy. My logic is flawlessly scrumptious today.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 11:54 AM
I'd have liked to see Jolee and Kreia get into a shouting match. Crazy old man and crazy old woman, one a light-tilted grey and the other a dark-tilted grey.

Drakyn
2009-07-20, 11:59 AM
Jolee would win because he has a sense of humour. As Evil loses because it cannot comprehend Good in Lord of the Rings, as Evil "always triumphs*" because Good is dumb in Spaceballs, so shall Humour always gain victory over the Laughless.
Either that, or because he has that little Freeman beard. Hey, Gordon Freeman has that beard, Morgan Freeman has that beard, and Jolee has that beard. I think we've discovered some sort of cabal.

*Note: "always" may or may not be synonymous with "seldom" in this particular sentence.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 12:04 PM
Well, I pretty much envision Jolee relating the story about the Destinyboy Jedi getting sucked into a reactor core when Kreia starts on about Revan's potential, Kreia angrily shuffling off to find some NPC that wants Jolee dead (Sonny?) and then the NPC chases Jolee around for a while. And then Jolee mind tricks the NPC into backhanding himself.

Drakyn
2009-07-20, 12:09 PM
You know, I like your version better than mine. I like it a lot better.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 12:13 PM
Well, they don't have to be competing versions. I'm sure the Freeman beard is a major factor in explaining why Jolee has such an awesome mind trick. And truly, mind trick exists primarily to be hilarious.

By the way, you're pretty damn awesome.

Drakyn
2009-07-20, 12:24 PM
Jolee, for my money, was one of the best Jedi/Sith/Mediwhachamacallity hosts ever. He was old, grumpy, funny, and his philosophy didn't sound like a writer shouting into your ear. Even he didn't seem to take it too seriously.

Uhm, thanks :smallsmile: I've noticed that a good 75% of the reasons for me to start posting in a thread are because I want to argue about/dispute something, so I have to at least try and pretend I'm not a total dickwad :p

And I'd completely forgotten destinyboy the Jedi before you reminded me, so thanks a bunch. Being used as an accidental saboteur's tool is pretty awesome, just maybe not in the way that chosen ones are usually foreseen to be awesome.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 12:49 PM
My favorite Jedi are... Obi-Wan, Luke, Jolee, Kreia, Jaina, Saba Sebatyne, Vergere, Mace Windu, Ganner Rhysode, Asajj Ventress.

And yeah, I'm a pretty argumentative sort myself, as you might have noticed. Though it's always really cool finding someone you can have good discussions with, even if you're not in agreement. Agreement is just icing.

Talya
2009-07-20, 12:59 PM
Luminara Undule, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, and Aayla Secura all had my opinion of them go from "Who?" to "Wow, they're awesome!" thanks to the sometimes great, occasionally awful Clone Wars CGI series that came out this past year.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 01:02 PM
Unfortunately, I never got to see that. I don't have a clue when it comes on or anything. I don't really watch TV these days. NCIS doesn't count, my parents have it on all the time, so I saw a season's worth just hanging around them.

Geddoe
2009-07-20, 01:18 PM
The only Jedi I like are Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Jin. My ideal original series is Obi-Wan handing the empire its posterior in 2 movies.

Yora
2009-07-20, 01:41 PM
Unfortunately, I never got to see that. I don't have a clue when it comes on or anything. I don't really watch TV these days. NCIS doesn't count, my parents have it on all the time, so I saw a season's worth just hanging around them.

That's how I got ALL my TV in the last 7 years. ^^
And I don't live with them since four years.

Jerthanis
2009-07-20, 02:28 PM
I refuse to play a Dark Sider though. That always makes me feel guilty and maybe even a little bit ill.

Dark Side Path was decent, but nothing special in Kotor 1, but the nuance you could bring to a Light Sider in Kotor 2, and the continuing bluntness of 90% of Dark Side options caused the story to just be awful if you chose cackling-evil in Kotor 2. Well... I guess the main reason I say that is the story falls completely apart about a half hour sooner if you pick dark side instead of Light side, so...

Here's the thing about Kreia's philosophy: If you pick the Light side every time, and save the Jedi Masters, she presents you to them as a proud master showing off her favorite student. If you pick the Dark Side every time and kill them all, she basically shakes her head in disappointment and says essentially, "You're just as stupid as Darths Nihilus and Sion are... a mad dog." She preaches antisocial manipulative jerkass, but likes you better if overall you're a nice guy. To my recollection, you only ever need to gain dark side points twice to max her influence.

My favorite Jedi are Qui-Gon, Luke, Jacen, Vergere, Jolee, and Kreia. It was after the prequels that Luke rose in esteem for me, originally I thought he was just "a Jedi" and that was how all Jedi acted. Then Mace Windu broke into the Supreme Chancellor's chambers demanding Palpatine's arrest with no evidence beyond "Someone told us you were." on a charge no worse than accusing him of his religion being "black hat cowboy" after putting the most powerful Jedi of the generation a safe 5 minute drive away and telling him to stay put while they go over and kill his loving father figure. I lost all respect for Pre-Luke Jedi, and thinking back to Luke's multilayered plan to rescue Han from Jabba... and how the plan didn't require any fighting until Jabba forced it on them... he's so much cooler now that I know there hadn't been a Jedi as badass for a thousand years. Jacen was even cooler than Luke until they decided Morally Complex always equals Evil, and that the setting is better if there's always a Sith Lord to beat up on.

Yora
2009-07-20, 02:37 PM
I lost all respect for Pre-Luke Jedi, and thinking back to Luke's multilayered plan to rescue Han from Jabba... and how the plan didn't require any fighting until Jabba forced it on them... he's so much cooler now that I know there hadn't been a Jedi as badass for a thousand years.
Hm, very true.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-20, 03:14 PM
Oh, the posts earlier on this page reminded me; Though I mostly enjoyed KOTOR, (Both 1+2, though 2 is the better, over-all), I do have a hang-up.

'Grey-Side' of the force? Burn it. Burn it with fire, and blast it's ashes into the heart of the Sun. NO.
Oh, so annoying. There is no 'Grey Side' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD7EKZ32ODQ), the force is not the Dungeons and Dragons Alignment System.

In the Star Wars Universe, there is subjective morality, and there can be 'Neutral' and 'Unaligned' jedi, but the force does not work that way.

It just feels off. Though, that said, the simple fact that Luke was supposed to represent bringing the two sides of the coin into balance, was one of the better concepts in my opinion. I just don't think that should instantly end up in the agnostic abortion of a morality that 'grey' jedi felt.

That's it, rant over. I feel better now. Move along, nothing to see.

Also, kreia was insuferably dues ex machina fodder. If the dark side path had a line that resulted in her being fired out of the nearest airlock, maybe I would have given it more thought. Most computer games are, by their nature, essentially 'on rails'. But still, c'mon.
Stupid old woman and her stupid philosophies.


Finally, I always liked Luke Skywalker. He's cool. It was only when I discovered the internet that the idea that he could be considered 'annoying' even occurred to me, and It never washed. It always just felt like a very cynically 90's, 'only han is cool, cause he's a rogue who shoots people' kind of attitude. Probably the same kind of reason why people shy away from paladins (even the ones who aren't functionally evil, or have iron bars placed inside their rectums.)

Yora
2009-07-20, 03:36 PM
Probably the same kind of reason why people shy away from paladins (even the ones who aren't functionally evil, or have iron bars placed inside their rectums.)
Hey, those few are cool. ^^

hamishspence
2009-07-20, 03:39 PM
There is a Force using order (prequel films era) called th Grey Paladins, who use guns almost as much as lightsabers, and are both paladinish, and somewhat pragmatic. (and not as uptight as the Jedi Council.)

They make an appearance in the Coruscant Nights novels.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-20, 03:46 PM
There is a Force using order (prequel films era) called th Grey Paladins, who use guns almost as much as lightsabers, and are both paladinish, and somewhat pragmatic. (and not as uptight as the Jedi Council.)

They make an appearance in the Coruscant Nights novels.

No there isn't. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Discontinuity?from=Discontinuity.Discontinuity)

hamishspence
2009-07-20, 03:50 PM
What's wrong with the Grey Paladins?

(I also thought the mention of the dissident Jedi faction that accepts the notion of Jedi with Families, in Order 66, and the appearance of Callista, was OK. Lucas's whole "raise Jedi from babyhood" thing just didn't fit with the rest of the EU.)

Gamgee
2009-07-20, 03:53 PM
The only Jedi I like are Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Jin. My ideal original series is Obi-Wan handing the empire its posterior in 2 movies.

I concur, but I also feel Yoda and Windu deserve mentions.

1. Qui-Gon
2. Obi-Wan
3. Windu
4. Revan
5. Yoda

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-20, 04:16 PM
What's wrong with the Grey Paladins?

(I also thought the mention of the dissident Jedi faction that accepts the notion of Jedi with Families, in Order 66, and the appearance of Callista, was OK. Lucas's whole "raise Jedi from babyhood" thing just didn't fit with the rest of the EU.)

Eh, adding whole new sides to the thing really just rubs me up the wrong way. It feels very much like porting in something that doesn't belong...too...propriatory? I'm not saying 'Mary Sue', but there's a similar feeling for me. Feels like putting in your own, (possibly supirior) creation, giving it spotlight and so on, and basically taking potshots at the core, original stuff.

Like with Kyle Katarn, especially in the Jedi Academy where he's not a player-character. (3?) where he spends most of his time making jokes at Luke Skywalkers expense, or generally being an actual Mary-Sue. (NOTE- Having not read the books, I am not saying that the Grey Paladins are mary-sue matirial, it just feels like it's a similar problem? I find it hard to explain.)

I'm sure it's quite possible that the books themselves were very well written, and that inside them, the grey paladins were an excellent addition. But I don't want them in 'My' Star-Wars. ;)

Now, if 'The Grey Paladins' were just another Light-Sided Force User(Read, Jedi) order, who merely happened to be politically seperate from the Jedi Council, that's another matter entirely. I'd still be iffy about the whole gun-using thing, but I can live with that as a relatively minor blasphemy.

hamishspence
2009-07-20, 04:34 PM
I'm pretty sure they are basically "light" rather than "Grey" in the sense of Jacen's "There is no dark side" at the end of the Vong war. (which turned out to be wrong.)

the closest thing to a "third side" is the Aing-Ti, as of the new series "the Force as a full colour rainbow, rather than just light and dark"

Sequinox
2009-07-20, 06:51 PM
My potential responses include:

Thanking you for your input. [Truth]
Thanking you for your input. [Lie/Persuade]
Try to understand why you think this. [Wisdom]
WHY DON'T I SHOVE THAT DATAPAD DOWN YOUR THROAT [Dark Side]


I'll give you that Jolee, Canderous and Saul were entertainingly written, though.

That cracked me up. If I'm going to be crude,

ROTFLMAOOLCOPTER.
(Rolling on the floor laughing my @$$ off out loud COPTER.)

Talya
2009-07-20, 07:27 PM
Unfortunately, I never got to see that. I don't have a clue when it comes on or anything. I don't really watch TV these days. NCIS doesn't count, my parents have it on all the time, so I saw a season's worth just hanging around them.



If you like Asajj Ventress, it's worth watching. She shows up several times in the first season, for a couple very nice lightsaber battles.

There are some very, very bad episodes. And some recurring annoyances (inane battledroid chatter being the worst of them), but all in all, it's well done. Anakin's not irritating, and his little padawan grows on you. I think you can watch them online here: http://www.watchtheclonewars.com/

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-07-20, 09:44 PM
Dark Side Path was decent, but nothing special in Kotor 1, but the nuance you could bring to a Light Sider in Kotor 2, and the continuing bluntness of 90% of Dark Side options caused the story to just be awful if you chose cackling-evil in Kotor 2. Well... I guess the main reason I say that is the story falls completely apart about a half hour sooner if you pick dark side instead of Light side, so...

Here's the thing about Kreia's philosophy: If you pick the Light side every time, and save the Jedi Masters, she presents you to them as a proud master showing off her favorite student. If you pick the Dark Side every time and kill them all, she basically shakes her head in disappointment and says essentially, "You're just as stupid as Darths Nihilus and Sion are... a mad dog." She preaches antisocial manipulative jerkass, but likes you better if overall you're a nice guy. To my recollection, you only ever need to gain dark side points twice to max her influence.
You don't even really need to gain Dark Side points to get everything Kreia has to offer you. Influence works both ways in that game, and if you lose enough Influence with her then she'll tell you what she'd tell you with a high influence anyway. Which is one thing didn't quite make as much sense. If you have low influence with Kreia, then she likely sees you as a stubborn do-gooder who continually weakens others by helping them. Why would she share her deepest secrets with a student who clearly has no respect for her and her teachings?

My favorite Jedi are Qui-Gon, Luke, Jacen, Vergere, Jolee, and Kreia. It was after the prequels that Luke rose in esteem for me, originally I thought he was just "a Jedi" and that was how all Jedi acted. Then Mace Windu broke into the Supreme Chancellor's chambers demanding Palpatine's arrest with no evidence beyond "Someone told us you were." on a charge no worse than accusing him of his religion being "black hat cowboy" after putting the most powerful Jedi of the generation a safe 5 minute drive away and telling him to stay put while they go over and kill his loving father figure. I lost all respect for Pre-Luke Jedi, and thinking back to Luke's multilayered plan to rescue Han from Jabba... and how the plan didn't require any fighting until Jabba forced it on them... he's so much cooler now that I know there hadn't been a Jedi as badass for a thousand years. Jacen was even cooler than Luke until they decided Morally Complex always equals Evil, and that the setting is better if there's always a Sith Lord to beat up on.
I'll agree with Luke, Jolee and Kreia. Qui-Gonn, Jacen and Vergere I can't say anything about as I have not read their stories, but from what I understand of it, Jacen and Vergere screwed up the galaxy pretty damn good, and I don't know much about Qui-Gonn outside Episode I. You're right about Luke being cooler than most because of how he remained true to the Jedi way. I had forgotten that Luke hadn't resorted to violence until Jabba forced his hand. I also agree that if Mace Windu had brought Anakin with him, and Anakin had stood with the Jedi arresting Palpatine, he might not have fallen. Jolee and Kreia are awesome because of their views, though I find Jolee easier to understand than Kreia.

One thing that's actually been bugging me about KOTOR II is that they seem to be hinting that Revan was this huge Magnificent Bastard who was actually trying to strengthen the galaxy against the True Sith by converting Jedi and the Republic into Sith to fight them. It just muddies the waters as to Revan's motivations and makes him (or her, depending on what you think of the canon) seem less relatable as a character, which is kinda important given that you play as Revan. What little I've read concerning Revan in the EU seems to indicate that he (or she) was single-handedly responsible for how both the Jedi and the Sith changed in the years to come, and even as far into the future as the Galactic Civil War four millenia later the galaxy was still feeling the effects of Revan's actions and teachings.

My brother and dad actually believe Mace Windu to still be alive, since the film didn't show us his corpse. No body, no case, as the crime procedurals say.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 10:20 PM
Luke gets accused a lot on forums of being a Mary Sue, which is one thing I have to say I've never understood. He's certainly very powerful, but up until Caedus he had a habit of getting showed up by the latest threat/new protagonist of the week so that it could establish how strong it was. And I do enjoy the fact that he's probably the least arrogant Jedi Master along with Yoda. As a setting piece for high adventure campaigns, as well, he makes an excellent figure - NJO has the most informal handling of apprentices of the eras known.

Kylarra
2009-07-20, 10:22 PM
Luke gets hit with the worf effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect) a lot in books.

Drakyn
2009-07-20, 10:23 PM
The "Revan knew what he was doing all along, fell deliberately, and was perfect" mostly comes from Kreia if I remember correctly, and we all know how reliable she was - she even admitted it herself. Then again, if it was an honest-to-god retcon attempt, I'm less then impressed.
So we have a guy who's made a perfect fighting machine and will doubtless be returning to a galaxy that adores him that he could simply co-opt with loads of charisma or at the very least massively influence, who decides he'd rather wage war on it. Fair enough, he plans to massively restructure things and needs to do it fast. Still, bit damaging to the structure even with maximum care.
But then this guy, who needs to be super-awesome-special-smart to plan all this, is dumb enough to not see Malak's backstab coming, dumb enough to not groom Malak so that in the unlikely event of his death Malak will carry out his plans on the double rather than making half the galaxy a grinding slaughterhouse of collateral damage, and dumb enough to not see the strike team with Bastilla coming for him. I think I prefer the old Revan.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-07-21, 09:16 AM
Yes. Even Magnificent Bastards have to have human failings.

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-21, 09:56 AM
Luke gets hit with the worf effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect) a lot in books.

!!! STOP POSTING TO THAT SITE!!!

Drakyn
2009-07-21, 10:04 AM
Just think of it as a sort of mental sit-up session. You must repeatedly force yourself off its pages and back to reality.

Kylarra
2009-07-21, 11:53 AM
!!! STOP POSTING TO THAT SITE!!!

:smallamused: ehehehehe



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