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oxinabox
2009-07-19, 12:32 AM
well one for now i'll get to the other latter.

Matrix style, Shot and Drop fighter.
Baiscally take a fighter, Give him 20+ Heavy Crossbows.
(or as many as the dm will let you have "I strap crossbows all across my body" Surely oh wise DM I can hang 7 from my belt? and then 2 on my solders, 2 mor onthe othersid, 3 on each leg...)

Basically the idea is to load them all, (and poison them all) in between every fight, then when you've used their one shot you just drop them and draw another two.


Take the Feats:
Quick Draw
Poison use (from assasin's hand book, or take 1 lvl of assasin)
TWF
oversized TWF (from complete adventurer)

Max out your dex.

and bulk up skill points in Craft poison making.

And then combat.
I draw 2 heavy crossbows, and let fly with both of them.
I drop them both
DM: Raises eyebrow?
Next round: I draw two more heavy crossbows, and fire them off and then drop them.


Combat doesn't normally go for more than 10 rounds so you should be ok




IT's wouldn't be Uber but i would be LoL-Worthy.

erikun
2009-07-19, 12:42 AM
I actually think something like this was recommended on the Gleemax forums for crossbow archers - carry several bows pre-loaded, then just Quick Draw/fire them to avoid spending move actions for reloading.

Actually, the absurd one was using Storing Gloves, Rapid Reload, and Two Weapon Fighting: fire one bolt from each, store one crossbow as a free action, reload as a free action, return the crossbow as a free action, store the other as a free action, reload... I think you get the point. It technically will give you full attacks with both crossbows, although most DMs would probably make you explode for trying such cheese. :smallwink:

oxinabox
2009-07-19, 12:52 AM
the other one was a party leader type:
Motto: Lead from the front.

Bard/marshal
BAttle caster (the one that lets bards where medium armour)
And fullblade profenceny.
And run all bardic abilites of perform weapon drill, (which can be used mid combat by shouting out stance names)

I think that would be great fun.
Have some Buffs My friends!
Enjoy +1 to all attack and damage rolls, and DR1/-
And why not, add my charisma bonus to damage rolls when ever you charge.

Mean while at the same time being a bard build that is a serious melee damage dealer.
fullblade =2d8+1.5 STR mod,


Downside is an apallingly low BaB.
Assuming you take Bard then Marshel then Bard...; etc
You would still have BaB 0 at lvl 2.

Maybe i can convince a dm that since i'm multiclassing from one BaB average to another BaB average, i can just continue on the BaB average progression.

Top two abilites would be CHA and STR, then all DEX and CON.

Mongoose87
2009-07-19, 12:55 AM
Maybe i can convince a dm that since i'm multiclassing from one BaB average to another BaB average, i can just continue on the BaB average progression.


Unearthed arcana has a fractional BaB table you might find useful. It would get you up to a +1.

John Campbell
2009-07-19, 01:28 AM
Having actually used crossbows, I wouldn't allow carrying a loaded one unless you're actually holding it at the ready, or are magically storing it in an extradimensional space or the like.

RTGoodman
2009-07-19, 02:24 AM
And run all bardic abilites of perform weapon drill, (which can be used mid combat by shouting out stance names)

I BELIEVE that Perform (Weapon Drill) specifically says it can't be used for Bardic Music. Check Complete Warrior.


The idea in general, of leading from the front, is a good one though. Marshal, however, is not the way to go, since the class basically sucks except as a 1-level dip. No, instead you need to get the Dragonblood subtype (several ways to do that), multiclass Bard (with Dragonfire Inspiration, from Dragon Magic) and Crusader, and focus on boosting your Inspire Courage (DI gives +Xd6 energy damage to allies, where X is your Inspire Courage value) and using White Raven and other maneuvers to buff yourself and allies.


As for the first, well, poison is notoriously, well, sucky in D&D 3.x. You'd need a way to boost the pathetic DCs, or something like that, to make it worth it. Or, IIRC, there's a way to basically reload as a free action anyway, and with one of those nifty extra arms from Eberron/MIC (it's a belt-slot arm attachment that can't DO anything, but can hold stuff) you can probably do it with two.

oxinabox
2009-07-19, 07:40 AM
Marshal, however, is not the way to go, since the class basically sucks except as a 1-level dip
3 lvls give you the ability to impart DR1/-


You are correct about perform wheopon drill.
Damn.
Oh well, Perform Oratory = Military Command ...
I want a bard build that isn't bard like.
that doesn't look or think like a caster or like a bard.

Eldariel
2009-07-19, 09:03 AM
The best way to go about this: Have a setful of Great Crossbows, Crossbow Sniper & Quick Draw. Then pump 2d8+ Dex with each of your attacks at target. Then just pick up Rapid Shot for an extra attack, TWF, ITWF, GTWF and unload with a setful of Great Crossbows. The only downside is the penalty for dualwielding Great Crossbows (same as Heavy Crossbow, -4) and the immense feat cost (you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Crossbow Sniper, Quick Draw, TWF-line, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot & Rapid Shot, and preferably Weapon Specialization > Ranged Weapon Mastery to partially negate the penalty).

Hand Crossbow does this at no penalty, but for 1d4 damage per hit instead of 2d8. Strongarm Bracers for 3d8 Great Crossbows. Build stub would be:
Human Fighter 4/Ranger 4 (trading casting for extra feats)/Martial Rogue 2 just burning all his feats on picking those lines; should be possible to be in a position on level 10 where you have:
EWP: Great Crossbow
Crossbow Sniper
Ranged Weapon Mastery
Rapid Shot (maybe Improved)
Quick Draw
to do attacks at -6, but with +3 to hit from feats, it's only -3 normal; assuming 24 Dex (26 is Elf), you'd have:
9 BAB + 7-8 Dex + 1 Mw. weapons (hell, Chain Greater Magic Weapon makes 'em all ~+3 by now) - 3 TWF+Great Crossbow for +14-+15 base (attacks at +14/+14/+14/+9/+9, haste for 1 more at max) and damage at 2d8+3-4 Dex+4 Weapon Specialization/Mastery+3 weapon enhancement = 2d8+10-11

Quick-Loading Great Crossbow would do the same thing as Quick Draw + Golfbag though.

Riffington
2009-07-19, 09:38 AM
We think of this as crazy today, but (with guns) it used to be a viable tactic. At first, guns took a long time to reload; one would typically get off a shot and switch to sword. They were often too expensive/heavy to really carry that many. But if you happened to know when you were about to get into a fight, and happened to have a lot of guns... having multiple firearms was a good plan. Pirates in particular would strap on a bandolier of pistols prior to an engagement; their guns were plundered rather than bought, they weren't wearing them long; they were quite useful (once) in a fight.

oxinabox
2009-07-20, 01:07 AM
The only downside is the penalty for dualwielding Great Crossbows (same as Heavy Crossbow, -4)


oversized TWF (from complete adventurer) lets your treat onehanded (wich heavy crossbow is - two handed to reload.) as light. for twf

Person_Man
2009-07-20, 10:12 AM
A Kobold can take the Draconic Tail (Races of the Dragon) and Prehensile Tail (Serpant Kingdoms) feats to get 3 hands, which qualifies them for Multi-Weapon Fighting. And/or you could use an Unseen Servant. And/or you can buy a Third Hand (Magic Item Compendium). And/or you can take levels of Fang of Lolth (3.0 material), which eventually gives 2 extra arms. Any of these methods would let you use and reload just 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5) crossbows which you could enchant heavily, instead of dropping crossbows as you used them.

Instead of poison, you might want to focus on Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Fear, ability damage, and special conditions (Daze, Stagger, Nauseated) that you might be able to dig up from feats and/or magic items and/or class abilities. Poison is very expensive.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-20, 10:26 AM
A Kobold can take the Draconic Tail (Races of the Dragon) and Prehensile Tail (Serpant Kingdoms) feats to get 3 hands, which qualifies them for Multi-Weapon Fighting. And/or you could use an Unseen Servant. And/or you can buy a Third Hand (Magic Item Compendium). And/or you can take levels of Fang of Lolth (3.0 material), which eventually gives 2 extra arms. Any of these methods would let you use and reload just 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5) crossbows which you could enchant heavily, instead of dropping crossbows as you used them.


Isn't there in savage species a feat to perform multiple action with several limbs? Am I wrong?

In DotU ther is an ACF for fighters - you drop medium and heavy armor proficency and add your dex to damage against flat footed enemies. Maybe can be useful for the build proposed by Eldariel. (I guess you will not use heavy armor anyway). And add +2 on initiative checks.

Finally, there is a feat in Dragon Compendium allowing to add your dexterity to ranged weapon damage. Is called dead eye but needs weapon focus and works within 30 feet. Is called Dead Eye (is NOT Dead Eye Shot in PHII).

Keld Denar
2009-07-20, 11:00 AM
the other one was a party leader type:
Motto: Lead from the front.

Try a Bardblade build. Bard3-4/Warblade17-16. Both are pretty similar, trading a 1/2 IL and a couple HP for a 2nd level spell and and extra use of Inspire Courage. Then, you take Song of the White Raven which allows you to stack your Bard and Warblade levels to determine your Inspire Courage bonus and take a couple other items, feats, and spells that further bump up your Inspire Courage. Now you have a badass warrior who inspires his allies from the front line while delivering savage ToB strikes with his massive bonus to hit and damage. Or, go TWFing and take the feat Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic). Now your IC adds more damage to your attacks than a rogue, does it for your whole party, and ToB enhances your TWF to scary proportions.

Its everything you wanted and more.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-20, 11:07 AM
Try a Bardblade build. Bard3-4/Warblade17-16. Both are pretty similar, trading a 1/2 IL and a couple HP for a 2nd level spell and and extra use of Inspire Courage. Then, you take Song of the White Raven which allows you to stack your Bard and Warblade levels to determine your Inspire Courage bonus and take a couple other items, feats, and spells that further bump up your Inspire Courage. Now you have a badass warrior who inspires his allies from the front line while delivering savage ToB strikes with his massive bonus to hit and damage. Or, go TWFing and take the feat Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic). Now your IC adds more damage to your attacks than a rogue, does it for your whole party, and ToB enhances your TWF to scary proportions.

Its everything you wanted and more.

Of course, the only song the Bardblade actually knows the words to is Monty Python's "Lumberjack Song." This is a special houserule at my table.

Additionally, the PLAYER must sing it at the top of his lungs in order to invoke any of the Bardblade's abilities. Even the ones that don't involve any singing.

I'm completely making this up, of course.

NEO|Phyte
2009-07-20, 11:22 AM
oversized TWF (from complete adventurer) lets your treat onehanded (wich heavy crossbow is - two handed to reload.) as light. for twf
I believe he is referring to the -4 penalty you take for firing the crossbow one-handed, not the TWF penalty.

John Campbell
2009-07-20, 02:04 PM
I believe he is referring to the -4 penalty you take for firing the crossbow one-handed, not the TWF penalty.

Which stacks with the TWF penalties, so even if you've got Two-Weapon Fighting and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, you're at -6/-6 trying to shoot dual heavy crossbows like you're in a John Woo flick.

With neither feat, you're at -10/-14.

FMArthur
2009-07-20, 07:48 PM
Hand crossbows are definitely the best way to go with a TWF-ing crossbow archer. It is the only crossbow that gives no penalty for wielding in one hand. Rogues get proficiency with hand crossbows for free at first level, which offsets one disadvantage. Damage on crossbows other than the great crossbow should mostly be coming from other sources; a rogue's Sneak Attack is as good a source as any.

In Drow of the Underdark, Hand Crossbow Focus is a feat that quite simply gives you Weapon Focus (hand crossbow) and Rapid Reload. Given that Weapon Focus (type of crossbow) is a prerequisite for PHBII's Crossbow Sniper (1/2 dex to damage, Sneak Attack at 60ft) and that Rapid Reload is necessary for full attacks/rapid shot to work with crossbows, this feat is virtually mandatory just for being such a good deal. Prerequisite of +1 BAB.

In Races of the Wild, Woodland Archer is an unbelievably good feat for ranged attackers. Whenever you miss, it gives you a +4 bonus to all subsequent shots in that round. If you hit a foe through concealment, shots taken in the next round ignore the concealment. You can also move while sniping if you succeeded on the hide check for sniping in the previous round. Yes, this is a tactical feat, which to me looks like 3 decent feats combined into a great one. BAB +6 is required, though.

Here is a very helpful archery handbook that covers general archery and crossbow archery. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=4e6ff5416303600e1c1738037960cb f3&topic=642.0) Its author does mistake Woodland Archer's +4 bonus as stacking with itself when you miss consecutively (bonuses, untyped or not, don't stack if coming from the same source) and didn't see that firing both bows of a double crossbow (url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) is a full-round action and not part of a full attack, but it is otherwise a very good place to start when building ranged attackers.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-20, 08:18 PM
I'm completely making this up, of course.
No you are not.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 09:13 AM
Here is a very helpful archery handbook that covers general archery and crossbow archery. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=4e6ff5416303600e1c1738037960cb f3&topic=642.0) Its author does mistake Woodland Archer's +4 bonus as stacking with itself when you miss consecutively (bonuses, untyped or not, don't stack if coming from the same source) and didn't see that firing both bows of a double crossbow (url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) is a full-round action and not part of a full attack, but it is otherwise a very good place to start when building ranged attackers.

As the author of the said handbook, I just feel the need to address this:
-You're indeed right on Woodland Archer, though it's an interpretation rather than just missing the obvious: Due to the nature of the feat, I treat each trigger as a separate instance thus being able to grant stacking bonuses.
-With regards to Double Crossbows, strict RAW suggests that a full-round action can only be used to achieve two shots regardless of the circumstances, but I'm more interested in the RAI - it seems the writer didn't consider means to give Crossbows iteratives. If that's the case, it would suggest that the idea is that you can get an extra attack in with a full-round action given proficiency and a way to shoot iteratives with Crossbows.

On both counts, you're right by RAW - the Handbook is merely trying to deal with the most rational reading on them rather than by strict RAW (which warrants mentioning - thanks for bringing this up).

valadil
2009-07-26, 09:18 AM
Hand Crossbows would be a lot more believable and you could probably fit more of them on your person.

Kroy
2009-07-26, 09:20 AM
Of course, the only song the Bardblade actually knows the words to is Monty Python's "Lumberjack Song." This is a special houserule at my table.

Additionally, the PLAYER must sing it at the top of his lungs in order to invoke any of the Bardblade's abilities. Even the ones that don't involve any singing.

I'm completely making this up, of course.

We do this too, except you can do any Monty Python song.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-26, 06:51 PM
Use repeating Heavy Crossbows for fun.

Also the Bard/Marshal works well. Tried it myself. The main issue is in finding a prestige class that meshes with the two well enough.
You want something like Ledgendary Leader with bardic music progression.

FMArthur
2009-07-26, 07:50 PM
As the author of the said handbook, I just feel the need to address this:
-You're indeed right on Woodland Archer, though it's an interpretation rather than just missing the obvious: Due to the nature of the feat, I treat each trigger as a separate instance thus being able to grant stacking bonuses.
-With regards to Double Crossbows, strict RAW suggests that a full-round action can only be used to achieve two shots regardless of the circumstances, but I'm more interested in the RAI - it seems the writer didn't consider means to give Crossbows iteratives. If that's the case, it would suggest that the idea is that you can get an extra attack in with a full-round action given proficiency and a way to shoot iteratives with Crossbows.

On both counts, you're right by RAW - the Handbook is merely trying to deal with the most rational reading on them rather than by strict RAW (which warrants mentioning - thanks for bringing this up).

I can see how Woodland Archer can be interpreted that way even RAW - and RAI, the ability might realistically make more sense to have them stack. Consider me sold on this one.

But the double crossbow seems to be carefully written to avoid turning it into just a lesser Splitting enhancement. It would be excessively powerful to have it give extra attacks beyond your iteratives; not anywhere close to gamebreaking in my opinion but certainly far out of line with other nonmagical weapons. Its purpose from what I can see is to replace Rapid Shot at low levels, and to reduce the need for Rapid Reload/Quick Draw shenanigans to be able to shoot consecutively without wasting as much time reloading. I do think they can be used with iteratives (and TWF'd with one in each hand), but I don't think they grant any extra attacks outside of that.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 08:07 PM
But the double crossbow seems to be carefully written to avoid turning it into just a lesser Splitting enhancement. It would be excessively powerful to have it give extra attacks beyond your iteratives; not anywhere close to gamebreaking in my opinion but certainly far out of line with other nonmagical weapons. Its purpose from what I can see is to replace Rapid Shot at low levels, and to reduce the need for Rapid Reload/Quick Draw shenanigans to be able to shoot consecutively without wasting as much time reloading. I do think they can be used with iteratives (and TWF'd with one in each hand), but I don't think they grant any extra attacks outside of that.

I found two wordings, both of which seem fair while still keeping it useful:
-Treat it as Rapid Shottish thing - this would mean that as a full attack, you can take your full iteratives and that one extra attack with all at at -2 given means to reload the Crossbow. That's how I initially understood it.
-TWF with the Double Crossbow. It's an interesting reading since you can never use more than two manufactured weapons without more hands so a double crossbow user could only TWF with one Double Crossbow this way, making it mostly non-sensical, but still, if there's Quick-Loading on the Double Crossbow, being able to TWF simultaneously with both of the bows seems plausible. This of course denies you any extra attacks.

But yeah, the above reading is what I went by; TWFing with two Double Crossbows would then go:
-4/-4/-4/-4/iterativesx2 (and then TWF and Crossbow TWF penalties) - nice boosts to be sure, but a large number of penalties to compensate, putting you a total of ~-12 or so with -6 from Heavy Double Crossbow, -2 from TWF, -2 from each Double Crossbow doubleshooting (and hell, -2 from Rapid Shot while at it for -14/-14/-14/-14/-14/-19/-19/-24/-24/-29 attacks!).