Disintegrate and the Undead who get fried

[Zergrusheddie]

In the Undead description, it states that Undead are immune to all Fortitude effects unless those effects can harm objects. So Undead are immune to Poison but are effected by Disintegrate. However, what happens to the Undead that fail their save? Do they take 14d6 damage or are they just dusted?

Best of luck
-Eddie

[arguskos]

I'd think that the spell treats them as creatures, and deals them massive amounts of damage, not auto-dusts them. However, that's a pretty good question. I'll wait for a real rules guru to come along and answer it.

[tyckspoon]

The spell must affect objects to do anything to undead, but they're still creatures and not objects. They take the damage.

[Zergrusheddie]

This is one I have been wondering for a while and I remember reading SOMETHING that said that Undead were just objects, of course I may very well be wrong. It certainly seems like Disintegrate is awesome to use against Undead because of that whole N/A Constitution thing.

[AslanCross]

They may not be biologically alive, but they're not objects. Objects will lack a CHA and WIS score. A creature may be unintelligent, but it will have instinct (WIS) and a sense of self (CHA).

[BlueWizard]

Hmm... this is a good question. It seems making them complete objects would make liches and vampires vulnerable. I'll still use the damage in my games though.

[Irreverent Fool]

Undead are immune to spells that require a fort save unless that spell also works on objects. This is a quality of creatures with no constitution score and in no way means that the creature without a constitution score is not a creature.

The text does not say they are treated as objects.

A corpse is an object. A zombie is not.

You are free to houserule otherwise.

If you want some hard evidence that an undead creature is in fact a creature and suffers spell effects as a creature and not an object, check the listing in the 'types and subtypes' section of the SRD:

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)
Now disintigrate:

Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level

Disintigrate is great against undead not because they are objects, but because they are affected by it and because they have no constitution score, which means no modifier to any fort saves that they do have to roll.

Undead are just immune to anything requiring a fort save unless that thing happens to also work on objects. This is like saying that the king will not eat anything unless it is also eaten by his royal food tester. This does not mean that the king is his royal food tester. I believe there is some sort of logical fallacy at work here, but I can't think of the name at the moment.

Hope this cleared it up.

obnoxious
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[KillianHawkeye]

Disintigrate is great against undead not because they are objects, but because they are affected by it and because they have no constitution score, which means no modifier to any fort saves that they do have to roll.

Undead are just immune to anything requiring a fort save unless that thing happens to also work on objects. This is like saying that the king will not eat anything unless it is also eaten by his royal food tester. This does not mean that the king is his royal food tester. I believe there is some sort of logical fallacy at work here, but I can't think of the name at the moment.

It's something along the lines of "If A, Then B = True does not imply that If B, Then A = True also", or more simply, "All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples."

[Zeful]

Disintigrate is great against undead not because they are objects, but because they are affected by it and because they have no constitution score, which means no modifier to any fort saves that they do have to roll.

Not true, Undead add their charisma modifier to fort saves instead of having no adjustment.

[woodenbandman]

^That is a common misconception.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType

"Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks."

[ChaosDefender24]

Not true, Undead add their charisma modifier to fort saves instead of having no adjustment.

Take another look... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm)

[wadledo]

Though it is wothy to note that a number of undead from post-MM have a number of Cha based abilities, such as Cha to Hp in place of Con, and Cha to Saves.

[Random832]

But the real question is, can you turn a one into a lawn chair? :smallcool:

[Irreverent Fool]

But the real question is, can you turn a one into a lawn chair? :smallcool:

Polymorph any object is a cheap method of furniture acquisition.

obnoxious
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[Pika...]

I think this would fall under a DM call.

However, any DM running in a setting such as Ravenloft should be wary, because I imagine this would be deadly (and cheesy) against Strahd. :smallconfused:

[arguskos]

But the real question is, can you turn a one into a lawn chair? :smallcool:
Is this a Mage and Vampire reference? :smallamused:

[Irreverent Fool]

I think this would fall under a DM call.

However, any DM running in a setting such as Ravenloft should be wary, because I imagine this would be deadly (and cheesy) against Strahd. :smallconfused:

If you are referring to rule 0, then yes. However, by the rules as they are written (and oddly enough, intended in this case), undead creatures are still creatures. They are simply not affected by spells requiring a fort save unless that spell also works on objects. There's no interpretation to be had here.

obnoxious
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[AB]

Speaking of Undead and Disintegrate... what would happen if you use the spell on a vampire? Would he be destroyed like "doesn`t come back" or could he turn into gaseous form, retreat and wait for his comeback?

[AslanCross]

Speaking of Undead and Disintegrate... what would happen if you use the spell on a vampire? Would he be destroyed like "doesn`t come back" or could he turn into gaseous form, retreat and wait for his comeback?

Here's what the rules say:



Fast Healing (Ex)

A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.

Slaying a Vampire

Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

Disintegrate deals damage. It doesn't vaporize the creature outright. Thus, even if the vampire hits 0 HP because of disintegration, it turns into gas anyway and runs away and has to be staked.

[Starscream]

Hmm... this is a good question. It seems making them complete objects would make liches and vampires vulnerable. I'll still use the damage in my games though.

Vampires are already ridiculously vulnerable. Their list of weaknesses is truly crippling.

My favorite is that you can repel one by presenting a holy symbol as a standard action. No other undead is affected by this. You don't need to be a cleric, you don't need to spend a Turn attempt, you don't even need to worship the god in question. You just need a holy symbol and the ability to perform standard actions. No save for the vampire, either.

I'd like to make four golems, give them each a holy symbol, and just order them to surround the vampire and keep showing it the symbols. It will never be able to leave that spot. Might have to stick a golem on the ceiling, somehow.

Then you charge admission to the "lesser" undead who are tired of the vampire's superiority complex and emo crap. Step right up, sir, one GP gets you three cloves of garlic. Get one in its mouth and win a free "Sparkle this" t-shirt.

[AslanCross]

I'd like to make four golems, give them each a holy symbol, and just order them to surround the vampire and keep showing it the symbols. It will never be able to leave that spot. Might have to stick a golem on the ceiling, somehow.

Then you charge admission to the "lesser" undead who are tired of the vampire's superiority complex and emo crap. Step right up, sir, one GP gets you three cloves of garlic. Get one in its mouth and win a free "Sparkle this" t-shirt.

A cookie for thee, sir.

And this too:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/AslanCross/DnDCampaign/EdwardFTL.jpg

Anyway, houseruling undead as objects also brings in a thorny issue:


Energy Attacks

Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.
Ranged Weapon Damage

Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object’s hardness.

Okay, so vampires gain another silly specific weakness, while gaining a whole bunch of resistances to far more common modes of attack. Honestly, I don't think it's worth it. Again, Undead are creatures enough to not be considered objects. All undead have Wisdom and Charisma scores. They may not be biologically alive, but they have enough instinct and self will to be considered creatures.

[herrhauptmann]

Vampires are already ridiculously vulnerable. Their list of weaknesses is truly crippling.

My favorite is that you can repel one by presenting a holy symbol as a standard action. No other undead is affected by this. You don't need to be a cleric, you don't need to spend a Turn attempt, you don't even need to worship the god in question. You just need a holy symbol and the ability to perform standard actions. No save for the vampire, either.
Which book is it in?

I haven't seen this one listed outside of a copy of the Van Richten's Monster Hunter Compendiums for AD&D. (The story excerpt also included mirrors, and an example of a vampires normal tactic to counter this)


I remember about 2 weeks ago someone was building an undead character with 2 flaws (very weak ones) and they were asking for advice on how to circumvent this very weakness. Given everyones responses to the thread, I assumed it was standard for undead (intelligent or not) to be vulnerable to disintegrate.

[AslanCross]

Which book is it in?

I haven't seen this one listed outside of a copy of the Van Richten's Monster Hunter Compendiums for AD&D. (The story excerpt also included mirrors, and an example of a vampires normal tactic to counter this)


I remember about 2 weeks ago someone was building an undead character with 2 flaws (very weak ones) and they were asking for advice on how to circumvent this very weakness. Given everyones responses to the thread, I assumed it was standard for undead (intelligent or not) to be vulnerable to disintegrate.

This is actually in the SRD:



Repelling a Vampire

Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.

They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

Vampires are vulnerable to disintegrate because it affects them while standard Fort-save spells do not. The only difference in considering them objects is that the spell instantly dusts objects. Disintegrate will deal damage to undead as normal, only that they're far more likely to fail the save due to their lack of a Con score and low Fort saves.

[kpenguin]

Which book is it in?

I haven't seen this one listed outside of a copy of the Van Richten's Monster Hunter Compendiums for AD&D. (The story excerpt also included mirrors, and an example of a vampires normal tactic to counter this)

From the SRD:


Repelling a Vampire

Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

[Gaiyamato]

They may not be biologically alive, but they're not objects. Objects will lack a CHA and WIS score. A creature may be unintelligent, but it will have instinct (WIS) and a sense of self (CHA).

An intelligent magic item has those scores and is still treated as an object.
I'd say treat unintelligent undead as objects and intelligent undead as creatures. Meaning that Zombies and Skeletons are auto-dusted and the others just take massive damage (possibly destroying them anyway).

Q: If I turn Disintegrate into a cold spell (frostburn feats), and use the Lord of the Uttercold feat. The undead would ignore half the damage (Cold) and then heal for the other half.
Is that right?


Is this a Mage and Vampire reference? :smallamused:

I had a GM do this once to an annoying V:tM character who decided that he could defeat the Arch-Mage we were working for.
He was turned into a most useful armchair for the Mage to sit on.

Rule #1 of the world of darkness: Anything that can bend and alter reality is always going to be your superior. Unless your playing with a certain Wraith build or can alter and bend reality yourself, but better. ;)

[AslanCross]

Going straight to the SRD for this:



Undead Type

Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.

Undead and Constructs are clearly creatures, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm) as is everything else on that page. While not all the entries use "creature" (Elementals are "beings" and the Vermin entry does not mention "creature"), it's rather reductionist to say that undead are objects simply because they're not alive or are unintelligent.

[Gaiyamato]

Going straight to the SRD for this:



Undead and Constructs are clearly creatures, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typessubtypes.htm) as is everything else on that page. While not all the entries use "creature" (Elementals are "beings" and the Vermin entry does not mention "creature"), it's rather reductionist to say that undead are objects simply because they're not alive or are unintelligent.

You are correct under RAW. But personally I see little difference between a pile of animated bones, a pile of animated clay and say an animated chair or a dancing sword.

Also your above points about WIS and CHA scores are invalid because some objects even have those in D&D.

[AslanCross]

You are correct under RAW. But personally I see little difference between a pile of animated bones, a pile of animated clay and say an animated chair or a dancing sword.

Undead and Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm). Creatures.
The Dancing Sword can either be an Animated Object (which gains the Construct type) or an Object (a weapon with the dancing property). The clarity of the rules here breaks down because they're meant to depict fantasy archetypes and aren't meant to be a rigorous system of taxonomy.

The implications of ruling that unintelligent undead are objects are strange, since if there is no difference between a pile of animated bones and an animated lawn chair, then there shouldn't be a difference between those two and a golem. Should a golem then be vulnerable to instant dusting (if it isn't immune to magic)?

Besides, who would want to waste a disintegrate spell on a skeleton? 11th-level and higher casters have bigger fish to fry.


Also your above points about WIS and CHA scores are invalid because some objects even have those in D&D.

I concede that, which is why I went straight to the Types/Subtypes page.

[Gaiyamato]

Yes, I agree with all of that.

I was applying a real-world logic type to it.
Under RAW Undead and Constructs are creatures for the purpose of the spell in question.

But if you saw a pile of bones animated as no more than a puppet pulled by magic strings and Golem, animated in a similar fashion then you would find it hard to think of them as "creatures" of any sorts.

[Kaiyanwang]

I hope can be useful - in the Book of Bad Latin, the author talk about disintegrate. At least in the italian version*, what I understood is that he assumes that:

- Undead Must Save Against Disintegrate

- They take 2d6 damages/level



* because happend to me to see crappy translation

[Irreverent Fool]

Yes, I agree with all of that.

I was applying a real-world logic type to it.
Under RAW Undead and Constructs are creatures for the purpose of the spell in question.

But if you saw a pile of bones animated as no more than a puppet pulled by magic strings and Golem, animated in a similar fashion then you would find it hard to think of them as "creatures" of any sorts.

Applying real-world logic or physics to D&D kills catgirls.

Why do you hate catgirls?

obnoxious
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