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View Full Version : [3.5] Yet another balance thread ... for MONSTERS!



Gaiwecoor
2009-07-19, 11:24 AM
We've all heard the endless arguments about the various classes and how they all compare to each other at various points in their adventuring career. But what about the monsters? Which ones are "balanced" for their CR? Which ones are horribly out of place?

(This is primarily for the purpose of figuring out what monsters are good to compare to some homebrewed creatures while setting an appropriate CR.)

woodenbandman
2009-07-19, 11:31 AM
Boneclaw. A 10HD CR5 undead is not unheard of BUT: It's got Unholy Toughness, which basically doubles its HPs. Also if you advance it by 12 hit dice it's only a CR "8"

The 20 foot reach doesn't hurt either.

Melamoto
2009-07-19, 11:34 AM
The 20 foot reach doesn't hurt either.

Many dead adventurers would be inclined to disagree.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-19, 12:04 PM
Fleshraker, of course, is terrible. Pounce, Rake, Trip, Poison, CR 2.

That Damn Crab, with it's Grapple Check that a level 5 PC would have trouble beating, and the fact that it's basically guaranteed a surprise round, at CR 3.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-19, 12:06 PM
Anything that destroys equipment is going to have a far more dreadful impact on a group than anything is of equivalent CR. Even if the characters themselves walk out completely unscathed, the group may have taken damage more brutal than an actual death.

InkEyes
2009-07-19, 12:59 PM
Anything that destroys equipment is going to have a far more dreadful impact on a group than anything is of equivalent CR. Even if the characters themselves walk out completely unscathed, the group may have taken damage more brutal than an actual death.

This x 1000.

For instance, Adamantine Clockwork Horror (MM2): at will Disintegrate, Implosion, and Mage's Disjunction; all at a 14th caster level. The challenge rating? Nine. I guess they justified this as an end of campaign one-off boss? Well good luck continuing a game after this creature does its thing on all your magic items.

hamishspence
2009-07-19, 01:02 PM
That Damn Crab, with it's Grapple Check that a level 5 PC would have trouble beating, and the fact that it's basically guaranteed a surprise round, at CR 3.

yes- its Stormwrack counterpart (same size) is both higher in CR (4) and lower in Hit Dice, Str, etc. Evidence that TDC was more than a little overpowered.

grautry
2009-07-19, 01:10 PM
This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4822.0) thread may be of interest to you. It lists quite a few offenders.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-19, 01:20 PM
Anything from MM2 pretty much was assigned a CR via the blindfold-and-dartboard method. Overpowered monsters, underpowered monsters, differently-powered monsters, and somehow miraculously correctly-powered monsters are all mixed together randomly.

jmbrown
2009-07-19, 01:21 PM
Aside from the terrible 3.0 MM2, outsiders in general are absolutely terrible but let me rant on my two most hated creatures the Babau and the Hezrou.

The babau is the skirmisher from hell. Unlike most skirmishers, he trades dexterity for pure strength. His natural AC is high enough to make him a nuisance for a CR6 encounter but what's absolutely devastating is that sneak attack. Because of his strength and multi-attack, he has respectable accuracy for a CR6 creature, deals respectable damage, AND adds +2d6 for each attack ontop of that. Sneak attack isn't that bad with simple rogues because it's not until higher levels that they get multiple attacks but babau's have three friggin' attacks with a +12 bonus to hit! To make matters worse, they have that stupid acid ability that destroys equipment. A DC18 reflex save is simple for a 6th level rogue but most characters fighting a demon in melee will have poor reflex saves.

I've seen babau's slaughter 10th ECL parties. Demons in general are pretty powerful, but a babau's usefulness extends pretty far into the teens in terms of building encounters around them.

My 2nd most hated enemy is the hezrou. Physically speaking, it's a pretty weak brute. As a CR11 monster it doesn't deal much damage and has pretty poor to-hit bonus. Its stench ability isn't that bad and improved grab isn't much of a problem because the hezrou makes itself easier to hit while it's grappling.

But its spell-like abilities? My god, they should be banned for a creature of its level. Infinite uses of chaos hammer and unholy blight? GTFO. The downright worse thing about hezrous, though, is blasphemy. A 10HD creature casting a 7th level spell is disgusting. Even worse, it casts blasphemy as a 13th level caster. As a CR 11 monster, it's entirely plausible to encounter one as a 8 ECL party.

Whoops, hope you like being instantly paralyzed. No save. What's that, you're on my plane of existence? Better make this will save, you fighters, or be dismissed back to your home turf! HAHAHAHA!

I've played through plenty of campaigns with demons and devils no problem but when the DM whips out the babau and hezrou I literally whimper slightly. Unless you're building a character specifically around slaying demons, the average party will get their asses whooped by these terrible, terrible monsters.

Lamech
2009-07-19, 01:34 PM
Whoops, hope you like being instantly paralyzed. No save. What's that, you're on my plane of existence? Better make this will save, you fighters, or be dismissed back to your home turf! HAHAHAHA!

Now see here's the problem with your reasoning... WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO SAVE!?!?!?!? Its going to kill you if you do. Or one of its friends will kill you. I would gladly take the free, get the hell out of hell card. Samething if you hit the violet layer on the first of a bunch of prismatic walls, fail your save.

Blasphamy at will is in general, moronic to the extreme. Take the balrog balor, which has nothing to do with LotR. It can summon another balrog balor, and cast at will blashpamy. Enjoy being stunned every single freaking round. While its friend rips your throat out.

tiercel
2009-07-19, 03:34 PM
If you are looking for a basis of comparison for homebrew monsters, I would stick more closely to MMI than any supplement. While some of the outsiders are scary (and in fact, you should think twice about any monster's at-will (Sp) abilities or full spellcasting on top of other monster abilities), I would say in general the Core MM is better balanced overall than any supplement, and has enough variety that you should in general be able to compare your homebrew to *something* in the MM.

...and besides, you shouldn't need to homebrew too many monsters, come right down to it. A lot of my "homebrewing" has been things like, well, cosmetic tweaking (players don't know if something is Monster X if I change its description, even if it has all the same stats, at least without the relevant Knowledge check) -- but also you can use the rules for advancing monsters, or add class levels/elite stat arrays, customize feat/skill selection, or *gasp* actually have intelligent monsters use their treasure/magic items. (Note that these last tweaks mean that even with player knowledge / successful Knowledge checks the PCs can never be sure exactly what *this* monster can do, even if they do have an accurate idea of what most monsters of its type can do.)

You can get a lot of mileage out of customized monsters, and when you do feel the need to homebrew a special unique monster, knowing how to customize a MMI monster will give you even more basis for comparison for your homebrew than a pure "out of the box" monster listing as well.

Gaiwecoor
2009-07-19, 07:51 PM
Hehehe ... so, plenty of examples on what not to do, eh? *grin*

MMI holds fairly true to CR, then? Any specific creatures that do a better job than others?

And tiercel, I completely agree on many of those counts about modifying existing creatures. This is mostly for that ... special monster that you need once in a while.

Solon Isonomia
2009-07-19, 08:02 PM
But what about the monsters? Which ones are "balanced" for their CR?

Giants. I love the MMI giants, especially when you carefully pick a few character levels to round things out. In fact, I've had great luck with just about every creature with the giant subtype.

Kobolds, orcs, goblins, and ho'bos always do well the first few levels too.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-20, 07:56 AM
Kobolds, orcs, goblins, and ho'bos

Hobos? :smallconfused:

...I'm picturing a mid-level hobgoblin monk with Vow of Poverty ambushing lower-level PCs, and when he defeats them he asks for a sandwich and an escort to the next town.

Cyrion
2009-07-20, 09:33 AM
My current annoyance is with the ogre, of all things. It hits well, and does a fair amount of damage- enough that if you don't have a couple of levels of hit point cushion behind you, you really don't it to hit. On the other hand, it's got so few hit dice that it won't be a challenge for a party that can sustain a beating.

Oslecamo
2009-07-20, 09:46 AM
Boneclaw. A 10HD CR5 undead is not unheard of BUT: It's got Unholy Toughness, which basically doubles its HPs. Also if you advance it by 12 hit dice it's only a CR "8"

The 20 foot reach doesn't hurt either.

Now go out there and give it the evolved undead template!

It's not that bad when you add it to a normal undead, but if you add it to an advanced undead, well, things start geting nasty.

Doc Roc
2009-07-20, 11:53 AM
The monkening thread at the ToS is pretty much a catalog of things with borked CR-for-Level.

There's some wretchedly bad stuff in MM1, don't worry. Anything with high-level SLAs is pretty awful, normally.

Hunter Noventa
2009-07-20, 01:14 PM
Anything that specializes in grappling, especially if it has swallow whole, comes across as broken. Why is this? No PC can match a monster in grapple checks unless they specialize for it to the exclusion of anything else. Even with ranks in escape artist, you're going to get grappled that first round and suffer for it.

I've found nothing more annoying than being swallowed by Tyranosaurs, Purple Worms and the like.

woodenbandman
2009-07-20, 03:38 PM
The Feral Template...
The Vampire Template (Yay, I can be a vampire! Oh wait, why do I suck? Well why doesn't the enemy suck?)
The Lycanthrope Template

tiercel
2009-07-22, 01:24 PM
Anything that specializes in grappling, especially if it has swallow whole, comes across as broken. Why is this? No PC can match a monster in grapple checks....

This can be somewhat counterbalanced by the tactical reality that in general, grappling is a bad idea when you are outnumbered. While you are busy trying to squeeze/crush the life out of someone, your victim's buddies are whomping on you....

(That said, a grappler like this, while perhaps doomed against a party of PCs, can be an all-too-effective way of causing at least one PC death before it goes. An assassin vine's [d6+7]x2 damage from constrict + improved grab is absolutely brutal at CR 3.)

Swallow Whole does tend to remove this tactical weakness. From the victim's perspective, cutting your way out is usually a much easier way of escaping than breaking the grapple in the first place, but you're in for plenty of hurt (with no additional effort on the monster's part) in the meantime, and can't Power Attack to speed things along.

Of course many of these encounters end quite (read: too) quickly if your PCs have a ready way to inflict Int damage. If you've closed that loophole, Will save targeting spells usually help, or just PC cleverness -- big grappling/swallowing beasties are fearsome big bruisers, but often have no real ranged capability and low Int; targeting a monster's weaknesses rather than going head-to-head against its strength is generally a good idea. (If you've set your PCs up to be ambushed, beyond the creature's innate abilities, and without escape reasonably possible, than that's really a difficulty modifier on the encounter and raises the EL and presumably the XP reward.)


....and to get back to the main point, I'm not arguing against that occasional, very special monster -- just saying that if you know how to advance monsters, it gives you a broader spectrum of possible comparisons to what you want your special monster to be able to do. Chances are that you can advance an existing monster to "kind of" do the things you want your BBEG special to do, which gives you a half-decent baseline for CR (for EL balancing and for XP reward).

If you have some particular ideas about abilities you'd like the creature to have, or the general role you'd like it to play, I imagine some of us could toss out suggestions to get you started on points of possible comparison.

Myrmex
2009-07-22, 01:39 PM
As long as the monster can grapple a player and not count as grappled; otherwise the TWF rogue will cut it a new one. Literally.

Zincorium
2009-07-22, 02:20 PM
Any non-standard lycanthrope. The Giant's were-tyranosaurus is a perfect example of why, and it's not even the worst possible offender. Stick with the listed examples if you don't want to have your PCs end up splatterated.

Entomanthrope (from Wotc's site) That Damn Crab creatures are in a whole 'nother category of hating your players.

Darcand
2009-07-22, 02:29 PM
My current annoyance is with the ogre, of all things. It hits well, and does a fair amount of damage- enough that if you don't have a couple of levels of hit point cushion behind you, you really don't it to hit. On the other hand, it's got so few hit dice that it won't be a challenge for a party that can sustain a beating.

The real loser in that department is the Oger Mage. Agile and able to pack a punch, certainly, but with a measley 36 hit points most any 8th level party can down him in one round.

And of course the kobold is pretty under CR at 1/4. My very first combat ever was as a level 2 barbarian. Faced with four kobolds across a courtyard under cover and no way for the party to reach them I charged forward! And died with four crossbow bolts in my chest. Needless to say my next character was a ranger with kobolds as my favored enemy.

Nothing that can ready an action is CR 1/4

JellyPooga
2009-07-22, 02:38 PM
As long as the monster can grapple a player and not count as grappled; otherwise the TWF rogue will cut it a new one. Literally.

Enter the Boneyard...Grapple-tastic Undead Killing machine of Doom...unless a PC is borked for grappling, the Boneyard is lethal...quite literally...whilst its 2-4 summoned young-adult red dragon skeletons tie up the rest of the party, it hits a target with Improved Grab. Next round, if it makes a successful grapple attempt it auto-kills whoever it was grappling (no save!)...oh and I forgot to mention; when it bites its target to use its Improved Grab, that target has to make a DC:22 Fort save or take damage to all its physical stats (and guess which stats govern grapple...?)...oh and it flys...and has SR...and Fast Healing...it is CR:14 though and only has 127hp so if you manage to get the drop on it, you can probably get a 1-round kill on it without too much trouble...

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-22, 02:40 PM
If you are looking for a basis of comparison for homebrew monsters, I would stick more closely to MMI than any supplement. While some of the outsiders are scary (and in fact, you should think twice about any monster's at-will (Sp) abilities or full spellcasting on top of other monster abilities), I would say in general the Core MM is better balanced overall than any supplement, and has enough variety that you should in general be able to compare your homebrew to *something* in the MM.

...and besides, you shouldn't need to homebrew too many monsters, come right down to it. A lot of my "homebrewing" has been things like, well, cosmetic tweaking (players don't know if something is Monster X if I change its description, even if it has all the same stats, at least without the relevant Knowledge check) -- but also you can use the rules for advancing monsters, or add class levels/elite stat arrays, customize feat/skill selection, or *gasp* actually have intelligent monsters use their treasure/magic items. (Note that these last tweaks mean that even with player knowledge / successful Knowledge checks the PCs can never be sure exactly what *this* monster can do, even if they do have an accurate idea of what most monsters of its type can do.)

You can get a lot of mileage out of customized monsters, and when you do feel the need to homebrew a special unique monster, knowing how to customize a MMI monster will give you even more basis for comparison for your homebrew than a pure "out of the box" monster listing as well.

MM4 and 5 both have better balance on their monsters than the Core MM. I speak from experience here, I've been able to challenge a party of fairly heavily optimized PCs with two or three creatures from those two books more often than I have been able to with the Core MM.



Oh, and Yeth Hounds. A CR 4 with DR 10/Silver in the Core environment? And a Fly speed of 100ft with perfect maneuverability? Unless the party knew they were going to fight one, its going to be a long, annoying fight.

Oslecamo
2009-07-22, 05:11 PM
Nothing that can ready an action is CR 1/4

Well, they are CR 1/4 if you play them as out of the book, using bows and spears, in wich case they're only dealing 1-2 damage per hit.

It's when you start giving them weapons/spells that ignore their pathetic strenght that kobolds sudenly turn much more dangerous due to their numbers.

Basically, most monsters will be much more dangerous if played "smartly", and terrain counts a lot.

Like the MM itself saiys, facing a group of orcs charging at you with greatswords is one thing, facing the same orcs shooting arrows from a cliff while you're crossing a bridge is another alltogheter.

tiercel
2009-07-22, 09:58 PM
MM4 and 5 both have better balance on their monsters than the Core MM. I speak from experience here, I've been able to challenge a party of fairly heavily optimized PCs with two or three creatures from those two books more often than I have been able to with the Core MM.

Well... this shows that balance is relative. If your players play more optimized PCs, you'll want harder-for-their-CR monsters (either later Monster Manuals, or more-optimized versions of MMI monsters).

If your PCs have significant advantages (better than standard ability scores, significantly better than average amounts of or optimization of Weath by Level, and/or access to a lot of non-Core supplements) then you'll have to grant similar sorts of advantages to their foes and/or consider your PCs to be, for the purposes of planning EL, higher level than their actual level.

On the flipside, if your players are running 25 point buy Core PCs with standard Wealth by Level without optimized magic items, MM XXIV (or whatever) might not necessarily be ideal without some tweaking in the downward direction.




Oh, and Yeth Hounds. A CR 4 with DR 10/Silver in the Core environment? And a Fly speed of 100ft with perfect maneuverability? Unless the party knew they were going to fight one, its going to be a long, annoying fight.

Well... a standard wererat clocks in with DR 10/silver at CR 2. (d20srd.org lists the Yeth Hound at Fly 60ft/good instead, but then also only CR 3.)

I'd hesitate to pull anything like this on a just-starting party of 1st level PCs, given limited starting funds, but even getting toward 2nd level it teaches the importance of having DR-breaking materials around, even if it's only a dagger or two (22gp silvered, 4gp cold iron) and a few arrowheads (2.05gp silvered, 1sp cold iron). (Knowledge (planes) DC 13 to remember "a bit of useful information" would probably yield up the DR of a yeth hound when you are in a "OMG our weapons aren't hurting it" situation.)

Plus there is no particular resistance to non-magical elemental damage, e.g. alchemist's fire or acid flasks, and also holy water, not to mention magic damage, even such as it is at low levels.

Myrmex
2009-07-23, 12:32 AM
Enter the Boneyard...Grapple-tastic Undead Killing machine of Doom...unless a PC is borked for grappling, the Boneyard is lethal...quite literally...whilst its 2-4 summoned young-adult red dragon skeletons tie up the rest of the party, it hits a target with Improved Grab. Next round, if it makes a successful grapple attempt it auto-kills whoever it was grappling (no save!)...oh and I forgot to mention; when it bites its target to use its Improved Grab, that target has to make a DC:22 Fort save or take damage to all its physical stats (and guess which stats govern grapple...?)...oh and it flys...and has SR...and Fast Healing...it is CR:14 though and only has 127hp so if you manage to get the drop on it, you can probably get a 1-round kill on it without too much trouble...

Oh man, I've always wanted to run a Graveyard. The art for it so badass, too.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 09:03 AM
Well, they are CR 1/4 if you play them as out of the book, using bows and spears, in wich case they're only dealing 1-2 damage per hit.

It's when you start giving them weapons/spells that ignore their pathetic strenght that kobolds sudenly turn much more dangerous due to their numbers.

Basically, most monsters will be much more dangerous if played "smartly", and terrain counts a lot.

Like the MM itself saiys, facing a group of orcs charging at you with greatswords is one thing, facing the same orcs shooting arrows from a cliff while you're crossing a bridge is another alltogheter.

While this is true, by CR calculations a Kobold is basically half the CR issued to it and an NPC Warrior is ½ its level in CR so a Kobold Warrior is CR 1/4 in spite of the armament it uses.

Terrain is one thing, but just equipment and feat choices don't directly modify the CR - it's only a function of optimization there.

Oslecamo
2009-07-26, 09:25 AM
Terrain is one thing, but just equipment and feat choices don't directly modify the CR - it's only a function of optimization there.

And the same happens to the players. An optimized player should be faced with optimized monsters, and vice-versa.

If the wizard prepared magic missile and burning hands, then you challenge him with shortsword swinging kobolds.

If the wizard prepared color spray x2, swaped the familiar for some special free ability and took initiate of fairy mysteries to get int to HP, then you let loose out your crossbow sniping kobolds.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 10:14 AM
Psh, use optimized monsters for the more elite opponents and mooks out of the book and just throw CR out of the window when considering XP. Works great for me, and I can't see why less rules-savvy players would be any different (other than using lesser numbers, of course).

woodenbandman
2009-07-26, 10:43 AM
I'm still getting the hang of party dynamic and monsters to challenge that. I rather like using hordes of low CR monsters, because they're more effective than one monster whose CR is an "adequate challenge" to the party 99% of the time. 4 CR3 Dire Wolves >> 1 CR7 Dire Bear.

I gave the party flaws because I like flaws, but I also said enemies get flaws as a disclaimer. I haven't had time so far, but for the next few encounters, I'm going to go through the challenges and give them feats that aren't "Endurance, Stealthy, Toughness (x3), Alertness."