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Irreverent Fool
2009-07-19, 09:50 PM
In D&D, after a point, every scrap of gear a character has is magical. In most games, this is a given. There are some options that allow a character (for whatever reason) to stave off this inevitability. In some cases this costs as much -- if not more -- as the acquisition of a magical weapon with the same bonuses.

In Dragon 358, there are options for smiths to create nonmagical weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus to damage. Since such weapons must already be masterwork, this allows a character to create weapons that are effectively +1. These weapons cost the same as magical weapons of the same bonus.

Dragoncraft weapons (Draconomicon p117) deal an additional +1 damage of the energy type associated with the dragon from which it was made. This damage is considered nonmagical energy damage.

These are the only such options I've come across. Have you heard of any others?

obnoxious
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deuxhero
2009-07-19, 10:33 PM
Psionic items >_>

Darrin
2009-07-19, 10:39 PM
These are the only such options I've come across. Have you heard of any others?


Check the special materials thread:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1127158

Baatorian Green Steel (A&EG) grants +1 enhancement bonus to damage.
Blueice (Frostburn) also grants +1 enhancement bonus to damage.
Byeshk (ECS) deals extra damage on bludgeoning weapons, bypasses DR on daelkyr.
Crystal, Deep (EXH) deals extra damage when you channel PP through it.
Darksteel (MoF) deals +1 electricity damage.
Dlarun (MoF) deals +1 frost damage.
Fever Iron (MoF) deals +1 fire damage.
Gehennan Moghuth-Iron (A&EG) has a -1 hit/damage penalty, but deals Dex damage as a natural poison.
Gold/Platinum heavy weapon (MoF) increases the damage dice on a weapon, but makes it exotic.
Hizagkuur (MoF) deals +1 electricity and +1 fire damage.
Riedran Crysteel (ECS) deals extra damage to psionic creatures.
Rimefire Ice (Frostburn) deals +1 cold damage.
Starmetal (CArc) is treated as adamantine, and does +1d6 damage to extraplanar creatures.
Stygian Ice (Frostburn) is magical, but does +1d6 cold damage, and has a chance to do Wis damage.

You'll also want to look at the weapon/armor templates in DMG II:

Fireshaped does +1 damage (not necessarily fire damage, oddly enough) to creatures with the cold subtype.
Githcraft does +1 damage to psionic creatures.
Gloryborn does +1 damage on charge attacks.
Hellforged does +1 damage on flanked opponents.
Soulfourged does +2 damage on opponents that are charging.

In Complete Adventurer, you can add alchemical capsules to a weapon. You can then add Quickflame (1d6 fire damage), Quickfrost (1d6 frost damage), or Quickspark (1d6 electricity damage) to a weapon as a swift action.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-19, 10:47 PM
Psionic items >_>

Well-played.

Since the default rule is psionic-magic transparency (XPH p55), it's pretty much the same thing. What I meant to say is mundane rather than non-magical. Granted, an artisan who can make a non-magical equivalent of a +1 weapon isn't necessarily mundane. So I could say non-magical/non-psionic.

I could also just qualify the types of options/items I'm looking for as "items that continue to work in an antimagic field and which cannot be dispelled yet are still obtainable by characters who, if they chose to instead possess magical items, would be able to obtain a magical or psionic item with similar or identical properties and levels of power."

I'm not arguing RAW here! There's no need to get into semantics. It's not like I'm trying to develop a Locate City Bomb.

Darrin: Thank you! That's very helpful.

obnoxious
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Quietus
2009-07-19, 10:53 PM
Granted, an artisan who can make a non-magical equivalent of a +1 weapon isn't necessarily mundane. So I could say non-magical/non-psionic.

I wouldn't necessarily say that making a weapon of such fine craft would require Epic-type crafting... the problem is that it's the same COST as a magical weapon. But uses the <craft check x DC = silver/day> formula, meaning that barring obscene craft checks, no one has enough days in a lifetime to actually do it more than once.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-19, 11:57 PM
I wouldn't necessarily say that making a weapon of such fine craft would require Epic-type crafting... the problem is that it's the same COST as a magical weapon. But uses the <craft check x DC = silver/day> formula, meaning that barring obscene craft checks, no one has enough days in a lifetime to actually do it more than once.

That's more-or-less true, though the progress is measured at <check x DC = silver/week>. One may make progress by the day, but progress by the day is measured in copper instead, which means you're basically losing three days worth of work if you do it by the day unless you only have a little way to go or are making a cheap item.

Consider a 6th-level character without optimization into crafting:
{table]Ranks|+9
Skill Focus|+3
Int|+2
Tools|+2
Total|+16[/table]

According to Dragon #358, which has the Artisan Craftsman feat and the 'razor sharp' quality, adding 'razor sharp' to a weapon increases the cost of the masterwork component by 1,000 and the DC by 6. This brings the total cost to 1,300 and the total DC to 26. Assuming the character doesn't want to risk messing up, he'll take 10 on the checks and get exactly 26 each week.
Using the formula in the crafting rules, he would make 67.6gp of progress toward this goal in a week.

It would take the crafter 20 weeks to finish the masterwork component and generally another week to finish the weapon itself. That's a pretty long time, and simply not doable for most PCs. The payoff just isn't worth it.

By comparison, it takes a 6th-level character with Craft Magic Arms and Armor only 8 days to make a normal masterwork weapon into a +2 weapon.

obnoxious
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John Campbell
2009-07-20, 12:04 AM
It's not quite that bad. I figure my dwarven smith, at 11th level, could've forged a martial weapon of the same price as a +1 weapon in a little over three months, with no possibility of destroying materials.

Adamantine full plate, which is way, way more expensive, would've taken several years, but not so many years that it'd be a once-in-a-lifetime thing even for a half-orc, say nothing about a dwarf.

Of course, at 12th level, he gained the ability to cast fabricate, so when he actually did make the adamantine full plate, it was just a matter of a few rounds of casting and a couple Craft checks.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-20, 12:22 AM
It's not quite that bad. I figure my dwarven smith, at 11th level, could've forged a martial weapon of the same price as a +1 weapon in a little over three months, with no possibility of destroying materials.

Considering that a 12th-level spellcaster with Craft Magic Arms and Armor can make a +4 weapon in a little over one month, this still puts the 'master artisan' quite a bit behind the curve. I used a 6th-level character as an example since 5th and 6th level is generally the point at which a character gains the ability to make magical weapons and armor and a point at which a character will still consider a +1 weapon useful.

Moderately optimized, a 6th-level character might expect to finish a razor-sharp weapon in about 10 weeks.

{table]Ranks|+9
Dwarf|+2
Skill Focus|+3
Int|+4
Headb. of Int +2|+1
Tools|+2
Aid another x3|+6
Total|+27[/table]
Taking 10 now grants a 37 result on the check.

Aid another is being performed by three hired NPC experts (apprentices) who cannot fail at the 'aid another' action:
{table]Ranks|+4
Tools|+2
Skill Focus|+3
Total|+9[/table]

Voluntarily adding +10 to the DC allows the item to be made faster. He's now making 133.2gp progress per week, but it's still going to take 10 weeks for the masterwork component. Magic is just better.

Back on the main topic: Are there any special materials/nonmagical tricks/nonpsionic tricks that grant weapons more than a +1 enhancement bonus to hit? It would be simple enough to apply multiple nonmagical +1 damage types to a weapon, but as far as I've seen (even in 3rd-party books), there are no such bonuses to hit aside from masterwork.

obnoxious
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quick_comment
2009-07-20, 01:03 AM
Back on the main topic: Are there any special materials/nonmagical tricks/nonpsionic tricks that grant weapons more than a +1 enhancement bonus to hit? It would be simple enough to apply multiple nonmagical +1 damage types to a weapon, but as far as I've seen (even in 3rd-party books), there are no such bonuses to hit aside from masterwork.


Tome of Battle maneuvers can give bonuses to hit, although they arent part of a weapon.

Twilight Jack
2009-07-20, 02:22 AM
I generally allow for truly gifted weaponsmiths to craft utterly exceptional masterpieces that go beyond the capabilities of standard masterwork weapons, all the way up to a +2 bonus to both attack and damage. I also allow the keen enhancement to be applied nonmagically (well, sort of; I'll explain below). In most circumstances, such weapons are custom made by master swordsmiths for particular clients. Some PCs in my games have gone so far as to have a unique weapon made for themselves in this fashion.

The thing is, these sorts of swords (or axes or whatever) are quite rare and expensive in a world where it is possible for a wizard to achieve the same results in 1/10th the time. The creation of a true masterpiece might consume as much a full year of a swordsmith's life and is therefore only undertaken within a small set of circumstances.

The advantage of such a sword is both mechanical and aesthetic. A sword that carries a +3 enchancement (+2 bonus and the keen quality) by pure virtue of its metallurgical perfection is not adversely affected by AMF or any other bit of mystical wackiness that can plague magical items. Additionally, in a world where any well-made sword can be enchanted to cut through the anvil upon which it was hammered, a blade that achieves the same end through pure toil and artistry is a very unique and special kind of treasure. A Fighter with a +2 longsword may toss it away tomorrow when he finds a +3 longsword, but the owner of custom forged masterpiece blade is far less likely to be so cavalier about an "upgrade."

On the downside, a nonmagical sword cannot punch through basic DR x/magic, no matter how well it is made. Furthermore, there are any number of spell effects against which magical items are insulated. Although a masterpiece weapon may be a bit more resilient than a normal version, it's still ultimately vulnerable to such things.

The game mechanics of the crafting are a bit crunchy, but I'd be glad to share them with any one who's interested.

Oh yeah, I will explain my nonmagical keening, since I promised. Basically, it just adds one more number to the threat range of the weapon, rather than doubling it. I did that so that it can stack with an actual magical keen enhancement or Improved Critical. The additional number is added last, after the doubling for the magic or the feat. So a longsword with this quality has a threat range of 18-20, a rapier would have a 17-20. If the threat range is doubled thereafter, the longsword would have a 16-20 (17-20 from the doubling, plus one more), while the rapier would gain 14-20 (by the same process).

Avor
2009-07-20, 03:42 AM
Lack magic? Use siege weapons!

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-20, 03:53 AM
Well, if you're willing to use third party sources, Dragonlance has in one of its supplements (War of the Lance) a class which allows you to create masterwork items with an increased effect. A masterwork weapon crafted by this character has between a +2 and a +5 enhancement bonus to attack rolls (but not to damage rolls), an armor has a reduced armor check penalty of up to 5 (which makes it quite useful even if given an enhancement bonus), and masterwork tools grant a bonus to skill checks between a +4 to a whopping +10. The class is a bit limited and geared mostly to NPCs (it's almost like an Expert but with bonus feats and special knacks, though one of the specializations or "knacks" mimics a bard), but it may very well worth it for the moments when you need some aid. Of course, the cost increases a bit: a weapon with double the masterwork bonus costs the same as a masterwork weapon (because of an earlier knack that reduces the cost) and takes twice as long to create, a weapon or item that grants a +3 has triple the cost (by then the cost reducer is nulled apparently) and takes thrice the time, and so on.

As well, there's a feat there that allows you to treat mundane weapons as masterwork items for a limited amount of time within 10 minutes and a Craft check relevant to the item.

Alsos well, it has been mentioned about the alchemical capsules to grant a weapon a limited amount of "magic" time if necessary. Some can duplicate elemental effects, others abilities such as ghost touch, and you can also include poisons as well (for the ability damage, although you may not want to use it if you're good and you may want to increase the virulency of the poison IF you want to use them)

Finally, you can find a Kaorti and ask the lunatic bastards to forge you ribbon weapons. You need Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it (or a wand of Heroics, if you use UMD) to wield it, but once it happens, you can have a x4 critical modifier, which is enough to make anyone cheer.

Finally, unless your world is a low-magic world, you can get your hands in scrolls of Greater Magic Weapon adn Magic Vestment, which grant you a limited amount of pseudo-magical property, although it may not count for purposes of protecting your investment. The Artificer in Eberron has other infusions which allow your weapon to duplicate magic weapons and armor special effects. It's a bit counter-intuitive, but it's useful until you get to an AMF; afterwards, a ribbon jovar forged from either platinum or blueice or green steel, outfitted with an alchemical weapon capsule, and wielded in two hands can make a great difference, not to say it counts as an advantage (if only it weren't so hard to use, though the penalty is at least -4, but by the moment probably the other person has even less AC so you can still hit it.

Oslecamo
2009-07-20, 09:21 AM
Lack magic? Use siege weapons!

This. Why settle with a puny sword when you can get your own galley/airship/halfling-moved-fortress, load it with catapults and ballistas and unleash the pain?

Ok, it's gonna be hard to fit that inside the dungeon, but hey, people are gonna respect you when you arrive at town.

Person_Man
2009-07-20, 09:37 AM
Pandemonic Silver: Counts as alchemical Silver. And when you draw a weapon made of this material, everyone within a certain radius must Save or Cower. Now here’s the weird part - the Save DC is based on the speed of wind in the air. It’s bizarre, I know. But if you can get hurricane strength wind (through Control Weather, or an Air Elemental and a nice DM or whatnot) then the Save is very impressive. Complete Warrior pg 136.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-20, 10:02 AM
Ok, it's gonna be hard to fit that inside the dungeon, but hey, people are gonna respect you when you arrive at town.

It's not hard to fit in the dungeon...for certain values of in....


"Captain! The Evil One's lair is centered fifteen feet north of that small hill, forty feet down!"

"Good work, Navigator. Chief Engineer?"

"Yes, Captain?"

"I want to pay him a visit. Make me a dramatic entrance."

"...sir? How am I supposed to help with--"

"No, I mean it literally. Your trebuchets can handle archways, can't they? Maybe some fancy engraving from the ballistae?"

Flickerdart
2009-07-20, 11:00 AM
Oddly enough, there's no hardness or HP values for dirt. But 40ft of stone is 15/inch, or for 40 feet, 480 inches and 7200 HP. A heavy catapult deals 6d6 damage, 21 on average, 8 of which is negated by hardness. It takes a crew of 4 men 6 seconds to re-arm a heavy catapult. Adding a 5th man, you could fire in that same round. It will take 554 rounds to punch through 40ft of stone, or just under an hour of attacking. It's a DC15 check to do anything, so a reasonable Chief Engineer can never fail.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-20, 11:47 AM
Oddly enough, there's no hardness or HP values for dirt. But 40ft of stone is 15/inch, or for 40 feet, 480 inches and 7200 HP. A heavy catapult deals 6d6 damage, 21 on average, 8 of which is negated by hardness. It takes a crew of 4 men 6 seconds to re-arm a heavy catapult. Adding a 5th man, you could fire in that same round. It will take 554 rounds to punch through 40ft of stone, or just under an hour of attacking. It's a DC15 check to do anything, so a reasonable Chief Engineer can never fail.

Which is why you don't attack through stone. :smallwink: I'd call dirt about 5 HP/inch with no DR, myself, which would put it at just under 11.5 minutes. Either way, it would take longer to go through the trap-infested hallways of the dungeon, and you can take an army with you this way, so I'd call it a net win.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-20, 01:28 PM
Ah yes, but can you Sneak Attack with a siege engine?

The trouble with dirt is that while you may be able to make craters in it, it will be difficult to make craters much larger than that of your initial impact since dirt has a lot of give and tends to collapse back into itself.

In a siege situation, an hour is not a very long time at all. Unfortunately D&D makes you do this stuff by the round.

Pandemonic silver is awesome.

obnoxious
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Starsinger
2009-07-20, 01:52 PM
Yes, you can sneak attack with a siege weapon if the target is denied their dexterity to AC somehow.

Oslecamo
2009-07-20, 02:03 PM
Ah yes, but can you Sneak Attack with a siege engine?


Actually, you can! It's a weapon, it has an attack roll, so you can sneack attack with it just as you can sneack attack with a fullblade or a ray!

"Ready...Aim...Fire!
My eyes! My poor useless eyes!"-Gravik the elder red wyrm, after being shot by the ballista maneuvered by Lidda the halfling rogue:smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-20, 02:21 PM
In a siege situation, an hour is not a very long time at all. Unfortunately D&D makes you do this stuff by the round.

Hmm...could we sneak attack the ground to speed up the time? No, better--a scout with ranks in Profession (Siege Engineer) waits until the trebuchet is loaded, runs 10 feet to it, hits the trigger, and runs back until it's reloaded.

Oslecamo
2009-07-20, 02:24 PM
I believe the ground doesn't have a discernible anatomy or even internal organs...

Get some scrolls of golem strike!

Flickerdart
2009-07-20, 02:42 PM
You set another squad on the other side of the Earth so it counts as flanked.

Mongoose87
2009-07-20, 02:46 PM
I think, with the direction this thread has taken, it needs to be moved into the "Worst Rule Interpretations Ever" thread. :smalltongue:

Darrin
2009-07-20, 04:24 PM
Oddly enough, there's no hardness or HP values for dirt.

Stronghold Builder's Guidebook p. 35. For packed earth, 10 HP per 1-foot of thickness, Hardness 2.

Oslecamo
2009-07-20, 04:41 PM
You set another squad on the other side of the Earth so it counts as flanked.

So everybody counts as flancked, because I'm pretty sure there's some bacterias on the other side of the poor dude the rogue is attacking:smalltongue:

jagadaishio
2009-07-20, 05:00 PM
So everybody counts as flancked, because I'm pretty sure there's some bacterias on the other side of the poor dude the rogue is attacking:smalltongue:

Ah, but those are faction-less NPCs. They need to be combatants and, if not on your side, at least the enemy of your enemy.

Oslecamo
2009-07-20, 05:08 PM
Ah, but those are faction-less NPCs. They need to be combatants and, if not on your side, at least the enemy of your enemy.

You have any idea the amount of diseases, parasites and viruses that fly in the air that would like nothing less but to assault the monster's guts and feast on his flesh? Every day we all fight invisible battles, in glorious victories against a neverending enemy that lives all around us. We're doomed to die in that battle sooner or later, but even then we never give up!:smallwink:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-20, 06:41 PM
Stronghold Builder's Guidebook p. 35. For packed earth, 10 HP per 1-foot of thickness, Hardness 2.

Wow, even better. Conceivably, with max damage a trebuchet could dig 40 feet down in under a minute and a half.


You have any idea the amount of diseases, parasites and viruses that fly in the air that would like nothing less but to assault the monster's guts and feast on his flesh? Every day we all fight invisible battles, in glorious victories against a neverending enemy that lives all around us. We're doomed to die in that battle sooner or later, but even then we never give up!

That's the problem--they aren't on your enemies' side, but they aren't on yours either. They get sneak attack on you but don't flank with you.

deuxhero
2009-07-20, 08:07 PM
Well-played.

Since the default rule is psionic-magic transparency (XPH p55), it's pretty much the same thing. What I meant to say is mundane rather than non-magical. Granted, an artisan who can make a non-magical equivalent of a +1 weapon isn't necessarily mundane. So I could say non-magical/non-psionic.


I knew what you meant, I was joking, hence the ">_>".

edit:what about non magic armor? There are some things for armor in DMGII with the ones for weapons IIRC.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-21, 04:10 AM
I knew what you meant, I was joking, hence the ">_>".

edit:what about non magic armor? There are some things for armor in DMGII with the ones for weapons IIRC.

I know you knew and you know I knew you knew I know, I think. :smalleek:

I was less interested in nonmagical armor. There are a number of easily-accessible ways to improve AC even without magic. Moreover, the reason I was lookign for this information was for a specific character who already has his AC situation taken care of.

The character I am using this stuff for is an NPC cohort. The character whom he follows as well as myself and the rest of the group have developed a personality for the fellow over time. One particular aspect of the character is that he distrusts magic's reliability. He's seen far too many items fail at inopportune times or simply be dispelled.

When the party first encountered him, he was a member of a criminal organization. They convinced him to get out of their way and eventually (through diplomacy and way more gold than he was getting as a thief) got him to join the party. They placed into his hands the weapon of his former leader: a Masterwork Razor-Sharp Battleaxe. (The weapon was supposed to raise some red flags for the PCs, but apparently I missed my swing with the clue bat.) The axe has been his trusted weapon for years at this point and due to natural 20s at key moments and an axe's wonderful x3 crit multiplier, has turned the tide of more than one battle.

Unfortunately, as the party (and by consequence the cohort) increase in level, a nonmagical +1 battleaxe will lose some effectiveness, especially against DR. So we're looking for ways for the cohort to improve his weapon without using magic (or psionics) as he begins to level as an occult slayer.

Pathfinder helps, giving fighters 'weapon training' which grants an additional +1 to hit and damage with a chosen weapon type.

Loosely-Related Edit: A weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to receive a special weapon quality (such as those listed in the 'magic weapons' section of the DMG or SRD).

It seems reasonable to assume that since a non-magical Masterwork Razor-Sharp Weapon has such a bonus, that it is a candidate to gain a special weapon quality (such as flaming).

obnoxious
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PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-21, 07:47 AM
Loosely-Related Edit: A weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to receive a special weapon quality (such as those listed in the 'magic weapons' section of the DMG or SRD).

It seems reasonable to assume that since a non-magical Masterwork Razor-Sharp Weapon has such a bonus, that it is a candidate to gain a special weapon quality (such as flaming).

I'm not sure if that works; I seem to recall that it has to have a magical enhancement bonus (or at least that's how everyone plays it that I know of), though I haven't read that section in a while.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-21, 07:58 AM
I know you knew and you know I knew you knew I know, I think. :smalleek:

"I don't think you know
What you think you know baby
But baby don't you think that I know
What I know maybe"

Yes, it has a song. Which uses only those ten words.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-21, 08:30 AM
So everybody counts as flancked, because I'm pretty sure there's some bacterias on the other side of the poor dude the rogue is attacking:smalltongue:


Ah, but those are faction-less NPCs. They need to be combatants and, if not on your side, at least the enemy of your enemy.

And how about a Rogue/Wizard or Spellthief with levels in Cancer Mage? Sure, it loses a bit of Sneak Attack, but it would consider diseases as its allies. A bit more, and you can dominate the pathogens so that they provide flanking. Sure, they're Fine, but at any moment they can get you sick.

So the Cancer Rogue would tell the opponent "Hey, you know I have a bunch of very little tiny buddies at the opposite side from where I am? Face them, I can hit you; face me only, you'll be sick. So, whatcha gonna do? BAM! Instant flanking, hence Sneak Attack.

Perhaps it's going to be a feint, but after that the guy'll probably believe it...

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-21, 08:38 AM
Does someone mentioned Thinaun, the soul-stealing metal? Traps the soul of the last creature killed.

Jade, From OAdv, is stone (-2 attacks and damage) but the weapon has gosht touch. Leap Attack on a Goshtformed Ironguarded mage is priceless.

In Strongold Builder, take a look in Obdurium. Is like adamantine, but HARDER.

Now I

/gate

Eldariel for Oerthblood. Eldariel, answer my call! (if you HDs are less or equals than twice my CL).

NOOOOOOO! I read now the message. Well, I'll edit the post once I retrieve again Oerthblood. It definitively deserves attention.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-21, 08:39 AM
Nice concept.

Still, the upgrade thing doesn't sound like a problem. You have a sword so fine, so improbably well made, it's as good as a +2 magical sword.

But you now need better.

So enchant it AS WELL. It should count as +2 even when supressed or what have you, but also as magic when you need it.

I'm all for signiture weapons, personally.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-21, 12:09 PM
Does someone mentioned Thinaun, the soul-stealing metal? Traps the soul of the last creature killed.

I don't think it's been explicitly mentioned. Thinaun is great though and come to think of it might be appropriate for the character's weapon. Both the follower and the leader carry small disks of it on their person to make potential resurrections easier. It hasn't quite occurred to them that should they both fall in battle, their souls will likely be trapped forever (none of the other party members know the significance of their medallions).


Enchant it AS WELL. It should count as +2 even when supressed or what have you, but also as magic when you need it.

That's reasonable enough, I suppose. It would be kind of awesome to still have a weapon with bonuses (and potential effects) should the magic become stripped away. I'm still interested in exploring all available non-magical options.

On siege engines: I think you're required to steal the victim's pants before sneak attacking.

obnoxious
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John Campbell
2009-07-21, 12:14 PM
Considering that a 12th-level spellcaster with Craft Magic Arms and Armor can make a +4 weapon in a little over one month, this still puts the 'master artisan' quite a bit behind the curve. I used a 6th-level character as an example since 5th and 6th level is generally the point at which a character gains the ability to make magical weapons and armor and a point at which a character will still consider a +1 weapon useful.

Oh, yeah, I'm not arguing that it's not way more efficient to just enchant it - the same character who could've made that razor-sharp weapon in a few months could've produced a +1 magic weapon in about ten days, and that includes forging the masterwork weapon to use as a base. Just two days for the actual enchantment. I'm just saying that it doesn't take so long to craft one that it'd be a once-in-a-lifetime thing for even a moderately good craftsman. (Note that my previous post was in response to Quietus's, not to yours, which appeared between my hitting Reply and my hitting Post.)

I was using a specific PC that I'd played - who was a decent weaponsmith, but more heavily optimized for other things - as my example, and using his stats at 11th level because that was the last level before he gained the ability to cast fabricate, which reduced the crafting time for just about anything he could make the Craft check for to just a few rounds. Magic even does non-magical way more efficiently.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-21, 05:15 PM
I'm just saying that it doesn't take so long to craft one that it'd be a once-in-a-lifetime thing for even a moderately good craftsman. (Note that my previous post was in response to Quietus's, not to yours, which appeared between my hitting Reply and my hitting Post.)

...Magic even does non-magical way more efficiently.

Well in that case, I agree. Though if a master smith who could pump out mundane weapons on a daily basis spent several months making a weapon it might still be something he only does once in a great while and even if he dedicates his life to the creation of weapons of exceptional quality, he may be able to count the number of these weapons on his (remaining) fingers, possibly including a few toes.

Which is a trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForgedByTheGods) I suppose I agree with. On some level I just dislike the 'quick fix' that magic becomes, especially in the realm of crafting.

obnoxious
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