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Boostaloo
2009-07-20, 07:50 AM
...I have been told to build a level 20 character by my DM. I really want to create a stupidly powerful character however, I am not very familiar with insane builds that people have come up with. Her are the rules for the character:

Standard race from PHB
28-point buy
768,000 gold to spend as I see fit

Other resources:

(CAd)
(CAr)
(CD)
(CW)
(CM)
(CS)
(CC)
(RD)
(RDr)
(RS)
(RW)
(PHB2)
(FB)
(SS)
(SW)
(Ds)
(HB)
(HH)
(ToB)
(BE)
(BV)
(SpC)
(MH)
(PlH)
(MM)
(MM2)
(MM3)
(MM4)
(FF)
(Dr)
(LM)
(LoM)

What he has told me is that I am pretty much free to make what I want as long as it comes from an official non-setting book. Psionics are off limits. Also I should stay away from Paragon classes and pretty much any and all UA stuff. If is is any help, he wants me to build my character in heroforge and he uses some sort of campaign management software, but I don't think it is DM tools. So if it fits in those boxes I should be good to go. Thank you for your help, you guys are pretty rad...

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-20, 07:57 AM
Be very careful what you wish for when it comes to "stupidly powerful" characters as the first thing that is going to happen is someone will link Pun-Pun and you will destroy any game. A straight Wizard 20 would work just fine or a Wizard 13/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil if you want to be even stronger. Iot7FV can not be killed; by the time you get the fifth Ward, anything attacking you gets Disintegrated.

kamikasei
2009-07-20, 08:00 AM
Too open-ended. If "stupidly powerful" is the only guideline then the game will never take place because the character itself will reach back through time after achieving overdeity status and unmake its own creation because it recognizes what an abomination it is.

Very powerful characters: Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Druid 20, etc.

You might want to describe the general power level the DM is after (as if you're far outside that, it won't be a fun game regardless of how "insane" the build is) and what general type of character you'd like.

Random832
2009-07-20, 08:32 AM
Out of curiosity, why is Psionics banned?

Person_Man
2009-07-20, 08:53 AM
Druid 20
Cleric 5/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10/Church Inquisitor 5
Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Eldrich Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5

Basically anything with full caster progression will work fine. Also consider Ruby Knight Vindicator, Knight 20, Factotum 19, Eternal Blade, and Incantatrix.

Flickerdart
2009-07-20, 09:07 AM
Incantatrix is Forgotten Realms, isn't it? OP says no setting books.

For stupidly powerful, you can't beat Druid/Planar Shepherd with a Fleshraker companion and Venomfire. Or a Wizard with any combination of full-casting PrCs. Or an Archivist. Cleric-zilla with DMM Persist cheese.

kamikasei
2009-07-20, 09:13 AM
Incantatrix is Forgotten Realms, isn't it? OP says no setting books.

True, whoops.


For stupidly powerful, you can't beat Druid/Planar Shepherd with a Fleshraker companion and Venomfire.

Vengeance is mine! Planar Shepherd is from Faiths of Eberron.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-20, 09:28 AM
Does staying away from "pretty much any and all UA stuff" allow Cloistered Clerics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)? Because then you could go for 20 levels in Cleric (not shabby in terms of power anyway), and then add Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) on top for bonuses to hit and damage against everything. And Travel Devotion for mobility goodness.

Flickerdart
2009-07-20, 09:28 AM
Vengeance is mine! Planar Shepherd is from Faiths of Eberron.
Oh? I had confused it with the Horizon Walker.

ex cathedra
2009-07-20, 09:30 AM
Wizard 3 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils 7

I suggest Focused Conjurer, Transmuter, or Abjurer. If you're going Conjurer, don't miss Immediate Magic from PHBII, for Abrupt Jaunt. Played well, this should suit most, if not all, of your needs.

Venomfire is Serpent Kingdoms and therefore setting specific as well, isn't it?

If you must use a PHB race, Human. If you can get a race from Monster Manual I cleared, I would suggest that you at least consider Grey Elf, for +2 Int/Dex, -2 Str/Con.

Flickerdart
2009-07-20, 09:36 AM
Venomfire is Serpent Kingdoms and therefore setting specific as well, isn't it?
I thought it was also in the Spell Compendium?

ex cathedra
2009-07-20, 09:40 AM
I thought it was also in the Spell Compendium?

I just double-checked, and it certainly doesn't seem to be.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-20, 09:51 AM
One interesting bit of useful info if you're playing a Cleric: the "armor" options. First you need the right clothes:
Scholar’s Outfit

Perfect for a scholar, this outfit includes a robe, a belt, a cap, soft shoes, and possibly a cloak. Next, Magic Item Compendium (page 234) allows adding armor bonuses to body slot items, including robes. Then you can still cast Magic Vestment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicVestment.htm).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell. So you get your armor bonus (+6) to your robes, and your armor enhancement bonus (+5) from Magic Vestment. +11 AC just from "armor" is pretty good, seeing as it has no encumbrance penalty, no DEX limit, and isn't actually armor, which means you can add a Monk's Belt to capitalize on your good WIS bonus.

EDIT: Oops, got the armor and armor enhancement bonuses reversed. I fixed the above.

Blackjackg
2009-07-20, 09:57 AM
So you get your armor bonus (+5) from Magic Vestment, and your armor enhancement bonus (+6) from normal magical item crafting. +11 AC just from "armor" is pretty good, seeing as it has no encumbrance penalty, no DEX limit, and isn't actually armor, which means you can add a Monk's Belt to capitalize on your good WIS bonus.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. At max level, Magic Vestment adds +5 armor bonus to a suit of clothes. So it goes from +0 to +5 (which, admittedly, is not bad at all for cloth robes). Where are you getting the other +6 from?

Curmudgeon
2009-07-20, 10:04 AM
Where are you getting the other +6 from? Magical crafting to add an armor bonus to the robes, as I explained above. See Magic Item Compendium for the rules. Basically you use the same process that's involved in making Bracers of Armor, but it can be used on both arm and body slot items. So, robes.

EDIT: I goofed, and got the armor bonus and armor enhancement bonus reversed. I've fixed it above.

Sila Prirode
2009-07-20, 10:12 AM
Magical crafting to add an armor enhancement bonus to the robes, as I explained above. See Magic Item Compendium for the rules. Basically you use the same process that's involved in making Bracers of Armor, but it can be used on both arm and body slot items. So, robes.

You do realize that Magic Vestment gives enchantment bonus, so it can't stack with enchantment bonus on armor (or robes, in this case)? You even linked it on srd :smallsmile:

quick_comment
2009-07-20, 10:20 AM
You do realize that Magic Vestment gives enchantment bonus, so it can't stack with enchantment bonus on armor (or robes, in this case)? You even linked it on srd :smallsmile:

Yeah, but you can get +1 Armor of Whatever, and then overlap that +1 with +5 from magic vestament.

kamikasei
2009-07-20, 10:26 AM
Yeah, but you can get +1 Armor of Whatever, and then overlap that +1 with +5 from magic vestament.

But that has nothing to do with Curmudgeon's exploit, which is to make non-armour robes with both full armour and enhancement bonuses; what you describe is the standard way to "cheat" pre-epic and WBL limits by getting lots of special abilities on the item and then tacking on the raw enhancement bonus via a spell, but it doesn't give you an item where "+11 AC just from 'armor' is pretty good, seeing as it has no encumbrance penalty, no DEX limit, and isn't actually armor, which means you can add a Monk's Belt to capitalize on your good WIS bonus."

Random832
2009-07-20, 10:27 AM
Wait... is it an enhancement bonus to your AC, or an enhancement bonus to the armor? If the latter than multiple pieces of armor would stack.

kamikasei
2009-07-20, 10:37 AM
Wait... is it an enhancement bonus to your AC, or an enhancement bonus to the armor? If the latter than multiple pieces of armor would stack.

"You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus..." So you could cast it on your armour to get an armor bonus with an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus, and also on your shield to get a shield bonus with an enhancement bonus to the shield bonus, and those two castings would stack because they'd be applying the same type of bonus to two separate things granting two separate types of bonuses themselves, which would stack towards your AC.

However, if you used it on multiple pieces of armour, then aside from the question of how you'd wear them they'd all be granting (enhanced) armour bonuses which wouldn't stack together.

Boostaloo
2009-07-20, 10:44 AM
Ok stupidly powerful may be a bad choice of words. Forget the pun-pun loop, I am sure that he won't go for that, and I don't want to break the game. I guess I probably like ranged attackers more than casters, but I am open to going caster. However it sounds like wizard is the way most of you think I should go (or cleric or druid). Is there any resource or stock build I could look at, and how should i spend the money?

Curmudgeon
2009-07-20, 10:44 AM
OK, I goofed; I got the armor bonus (from crafting, as per Magic Item Compendium pages 233-234), and and armor enhancement bonus (from Magic Vestment) reversed. I've fixed it above.


You do realize that Magic Vestment gives enchantment bonus, so it can't stack with enchantment bonus on armor (or robes, in this case)? Huh? Magic armor has an abjuration aura, and Magic Vestment is transmutation. There's no enchantment at all.

ex cathedra
2009-07-20, 10:55 AM
I'm fairly certain that was meant to be enhancement. Cloth will almost always have an enhancement bonus to armor rather than an armor bonus.

Anyways, on topic:

If you're playing a wizard I suggest you read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085) and this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=881457). They should get you started.

Sila Prirode
2009-07-20, 11:09 AM
OK, I goofed; I got the armor bonus (from crafting, as per Magic Item Compendium pages 233-234), and and armor enhancement bonus (from Magic Vestment) reversed. I've fixed it above.

Huh? Magic armor has an abjuration aura, and Magic Vestment is transmutation. There's no enchantment at all.

Wow, I don't even know where to start.
First of all, you can only add +1 to armor bonus, because it says you can add +1 only if it doesn't already have non magical bonus (which is armor bonus, so when you add that first +1, you can't add a second).

Second, please read the text of Magic Vestment out loud, you'll see what enchantment I'm talking about. :smallwink:

Flickerdart
2009-07-20, 11:15 AM
Wow, I don't even know where to start.
First of all, you can only add +1 to armor bonus, because it says you can add +1 only if it doesn't already have non magical bonus (which is armor bonus, so when you add that first +1, you can't add a second).

Second, please read the text of Magic Vestment out loud, you'll see what enchantment I'm talking about. :smallwink:
You mean the enhancement. As in, the armour is enhanced. Not enchanted. And when you add bonuses, you don't add each +1 at a time. If it's +5, you add +5 all at once.

Random832
2009-07-20, 11:22 AM
ObLink: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/terminology.html

[I'd been silently ignoring it since it's really not that big a deal, but since someone else pointed it out]

Sila Prirode
2009-07-20, 11:52 AM
You mean the enhancement. As in, the armour is enhanced. Not enchanted. And when you add bonuses, you don't add each +1 at a time. If it's +5, you add +5 all at once.

Oops, I got my spelling wrong :smallbiggrin: But yes, you got my meaning right.
And that adding bonus part was about Magic Item Compendium, and adding armor bonus to items without one, you can't add more then one to a robe, because that bonus can't be added to items with non-magical armor bonus.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-20, 11:59 AM
And that adding bonus part was about Magic Item Compendium, and adding armor bonus to items without one, you can't add more then one to a robe, because that bonus can't be added to items with non-magical armor bonus. Can you try that again, with discrete sentences? I can't figure out what you're attempting to communicate.
Adding/Improving Common Item Effects presents a list of common item effects, from ability score enhancement bonuses to energy resistance, and the price to add that effect to an item.

The table also indicates the appropriate body slot (or slots) for
each effect.
...
Adding one of these effects to an existing item works much like creating an item from scratch.
You add the armor bonus to robes in exactly the same way you add the armor bonus to bracers to create Bracers of Armor. Does that help?

Sila Prirode
2009-07-20, 12:09 PM
Sure, but what about that footnote at the end of the table?
It says that upgrade for Armor Bonus "can't be added to any item that already provides a (nonmagical) armor or shield bonus to AC".
When you add your first Armor Bonus on the robes, doesn't that make them unavailable for further improvement?

Curmudgeon
2009-07-20, 12:22 PM
It says that upgrade for Armor Bonus "can't be added to any item that already provides a (nonmagical) armor or shield bonus to AC". Robes normally provide no armor bonus.

When you add your first Armor Bonus on the robes, doesn't that make them unavailable for further improvement? Nope. The restriction is on the item creation rules, when the robe starts with AC 0.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. While the DMG and Magic Item Compendium can set limitations for item creation, they have no say in how spells work. There the Player's Handbook is the primary source, and it allows Magic Vestment to work on regular clothing.

Done in the correct order, these effects (armor bonus and armor enhancement bonus) stack, as per the usual D&D stacking rules for bonuses of different types.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 12:25 PM
So who's on first?

Sila Prirode
2009-07-20, 12:39 PM
Yes, I know about the Magic Vestment, and that is not the point of my question.

Robes normally provide no armor bonus.
Nope. The restriction is on the item creation rules, when the robe starts with AC 0.
This is. Adding magical effects to items (as described in M. Items Compendium), on the table with possible improvements has a little footnote on adding Armor Bonus which says that you can't add it to an item which already has Armor Bonus. So when you add it the first time (making your robes a +1 AC item) you can't add more Bonus. Or am I reading it wrong?

Kylarra
2009-07-20, 01:00 PM
You're reading it wrong. The +armor robes provide a magical bonus to armor and thus aren't blocked by the restriction of not providing nonmagical bonuses to armor or shielding.

That line is to prevent you from having full plate (or shields) that are also +armor and +enhancement.

Sila Prirode
2009-07-20, 01:02 PM
Oh, missed the part where it says it's magical Armor Bonus.
And to think I'm the guy my group turns to when it comes to rules, buildes, and whatnot :smallredface:

Curmudgeon
2009-07-20, 01:21 PM
Glad we got that settled. As I said, I like Cleric as a choice. You can get a bit of improvement with full-casting PrCs, but the base is strong. And when you've got at least 32 + WIS bonus + DEX bonus for AC, it's even better.
AC base: 10
armor bonus to robes: +6
armor enhancement bonus to robes (from Magic Vestment): +5
natural armor enhancement bonus (item, or Barkskin from Plant domain): +5
deflection bonus (Ring of Protection): +5
base armor bonus from Monk's Belt: +1
WIS bonus (from Monk's Belt): ____
DEX bonus: ____
You can throw in a shield (or buckler, if you don't want to restrict your spellcasting) if you're a standard Cleric, but you're nonproficient if you're a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). If you've got the Spell domain you can cast Anyspell to get Alter Self and get some base natural armor. (Or via the Magic domain with a wand.)