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alexi
2009-07-20, 08:33 AM
so would creating race that has powerful build automatically be +1? would offering it as a human only feat that must be taken at first lvl be unbalanced?

Mr.Moron
2009-07-20, 08:40 AM
Personally I'd say non-LA powerful build is Okay. I tend to think the system vastly overvalues melee bonuses. However, in my experience the majority disagrees. I think you could see complaints from your non-human players if you offered that.

Indon
2009-07-20, 08:45 AM
so would creating race that has powerful build automatically be +1? would offering it as a human only feat that must be taken at first lvl be unbalanced?

Why human-only?

Zincorium
2009-07-20, 08:50 AM
Well, the Jotunbrud (sp?) feat from forgotten realms is a regional feat and has about half of powerful build's goodies. There is precedent.

There would have to be some sort of significant drawback involved, such as paying more for armor or something similar.

alexi
2009-07-20, 08:54 AM
Why human-only?

well human only would be a setting specific feat for my world. It basically would come down to long ago the frost giants kept humans as slaves and every once in a while a random mutation pops up...

as to draw backs, I think that it would make the persons height 7 feat + 1d12, so yeah it would make armour more difficult

Typewriter
2009-07-20, 09:04 AM
I would say it's overpowered because it gives bonuses to a lot of different things that independant feats exist for.

Monkey grip for a (crappier) version of the larger weapon.
Feats to resist bull rush
Feats to grant bonuses to grapple

I think powerful build gives even more than that, but making 1 feat have the power of all those is a bit much. I'd say make it two - one for the larger weapons, one for everything else. A human could take both(1st level requirement) any other race would have to choose only one if they wanted to.). Or just keep it human.

Uin
2009-07-20, 09:10 AM
Consider how many bonuses Dwarves get and I think you could consider a Powerful Build race with neutral ability Modifiers and very little or nothing a +0LA race.

I let my players use a modified Half-Giant with -2Dex +2Con and a new "Semi Powerful Build" which consists of +2s instead of +4s along with the 2PP and +2 Fire Saves.

alexi
2009-07-20, 09:11 AM
I would say it's overpowered because it gives bonuses to a lot of different things that independant feats exist for.

Monkey grip for a (crappier) version of the larger weapon.
Feats to resist bull rush
Feats to grant bonuses to grapple

I think powerful build gives even more than that, but making 1 feat have the power of all those is a bit much. I'd say make it two - one for the larger weapons, one for everything else. A human could take both(1st level requirement) any other race would have to choose only one if they wanted to.). Or just keep it human.

ok how about trimming down the half-giant to a pair of +/- multipliers and powerful build? would that be balanced for no +1 lvl?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-20, 09:30 AM
I would say it's overpowered because it gives bonuses to a lot of different things that independant feats exist for.

Monkey grip for a (crappier) version of the larger weapon.
Feats to resist bull rush
Feats to grant bonuses to grapple

Well, Monkey Grip is a feat almost no one takes for power, and there honestly shouldn't be so many "feat tax" penalties for combat maneuvers. I'd say powerful build for a feat or racial feature isn't nearly as good as the devs think it is, and definitely shouldn't have LA by itself.

Typewriter
2009-07-20, 09:57 AM
I'd never imply that monkey grip is something people take for power. I'm just pointing out that such things exist.

If you're trying to make a feat(or feat tree) that grants powers equivalent to powerful build, then you need to look at what already exists and work from there.

If you're going completely by ear, and now looking for previously existing examples that sounds more like a homebrew to me.

Person_Man
2009-07-20, 10:26 AM
Powerful Build (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm): The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

In addition to improved opposed checks and weapon damage, Powerful Build build also qualifies you for the Knockback feat, which gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you Power Attack. That by itself has huge potential for damage (via the Dungeoncrasher Fighter variant in Dungeonscape) and battlefield control (via Shock Trooper in CW).

Jotunbrud (Races of Faerun pg 166) treats you as size Large (not one size larger) for opposed checks and creature abilities (such as Swallow Whole). And that's it. It's a very potent, campaign world specific, regional feat. It does not scale with your size (so a Human with Jotunbrud using Enlarge Person or Expansion still counts as Large), it does not let you use larger weapons without penalty, and it does not qualify you for Knockback.

So my opinion is that Powerful Build = +1 LA.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-20, 10:56 AM
So my opinion is that Powerful Build = +1 LA.

Should be noted that PB races have other benefits (see half giants and goliath but are in general minor ones, sort of adjustments by the designer. I'd go to second Person Man.

Just take a look on the stats adjustment (and other racial abilities) of the aforementioned races to have an idea.

Typewriter
2009-07-20, 11:33 AM
Yes, half-giants and goliaths have both got powerful build and OTHER abilities for 1 level adjustment, but the question was whether or not it would be more powerful than a feat.

I personally dont think that the ability by itself is worth one level adjustment, but considering that it grants the abilities of several feats(sometimes better than the pre-existing feat(monkey grip)) making it something that a human can take for one feat is overpowered.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-20, 11:43 AM
I personally dont think that the ability by itself is worth one level adjustment, but considering that it grants the abilities of several feats(sometimes better than the pre-existing feat(monkey grip)) making it something that a human can take for one feat is overpowered.

Well, you also need to consider what those feats are. No one would bat an eye at giving a race an ability that duplicated Toughness, Alertness, and Magical Aptitude, even though those are 3 entire feats, whereas a free Power Attack is a no-no. Powerful Build overrides Monkey Grip and several combat maneuver feats, but given that Monkey Grip isn't really worth it and you shouldn't need to take the combat maneuver feats, it's not really that bad.

Yes, it qualifies you for Knockback, but that's a problem with the feat itself and not Powerful Build; just because a race with the Aberration type can turn into aberrations with alter self doesn't mean being an aberration is problematic, it's the alter self spell that is.

Typewriter
2009-07-20, 11:49 AM
No one would bat an eye at a race giving the abilities of those 3 feats under the description of "Awesome Race: Feat 1, Feat 2, Feat 3"

But if someone then came out and said "Can I just take the Awesome Race feat?" most people would say no.

Which is what I'm saying should be done here.

Regardless of the power of the feats, or the validity of 'having' to take them the fact remains that all those feats exist, and you're saying it's okay to roll them all up into one because a race has it as a special ability.

Race special abilities > feats and that's the way it should be(in my opinion).

Turning special abilities into feats should be handled carefully, and negatives should be applied as necessary(especially for something like Powerful Build - which, in my opinion, is an awesome ability), and at that point is homebrew.


I would not allow it. You may as well just make feats that take all the racial features of a dwarf and give that to humans. Then you get to play a dwarf with +1 skill points per level...

ErrantX
2009-07-20, 11:50 AM
So by considering a race with powerful build a +1, what would you call a race that had the following stats:

Type: Monstrous Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType)
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha
+1 natural armor
Powerful Build
Darkvision 60ft
LA: +1 (?)

-X

Typewriter
2009-07-20, 12:15 PM
I assume that's more geared towards Perons_Man than me who said that powerful build=1 LA

I said I don't think that, but that I did think that Powerful Build >>> One feat(three greater than signs were used to represent the 3 feats you get by taking this one).

Goliath and Half-Giant are both good races, but in taking them you dont get a class level. If it was only powerful build or only their other bonuses, no one would play them. Combined it makes them a fun race to play, but not the only race in the world that people play.

I will say that if I could take powerful build as a feat then every melee character I ever played would take it because it's darn well near amazing at that point.


(I'm out of town for a week here in about 3 minutes so I wont be able to see if this thread goes anywhere unless it's still going when I get back(doubtful) so good luck to you all :)

Philaenas
2009-07-20, 12:42 PM
In my opinion melee builds have the right to be powerful at low levels, since at the higher levels the casters will be outcompeting them in almost every way. Just let them casters assist you with the occasional grease, mist or entangle and hack away while you still can! :smallsmile:
So no, powerful build would not be too much.

Person_Man
2009-07-20, 12:47 PM
So by considering a race with powerful build a +1, what would you call a race that had the following stats:

Type: Monstrous Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType)
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha
+1 natural armor
Powerful Build
Darkvision 60ft
LA: +1 (?)

-X

For comparison:

Goliath (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5):
Monstrous Humanoid
+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex
Powerful Build
Mountain Movement
Acclimated
+2 Sense Motive
Favored Class: Barbarian
LA: +1

Half-Giant (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm):
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity.
Low-light vision.
2 bonus power points
+2 Saves vs Fire
Powerful Build
Stomp once per day
Favored Class: Psychic Warrior.
LA: +1.

So what you propose is slightly weaker then the Goliath (which doesn't get the Cha penalty) and about equal to the Half-Giant (which only gets a +2 Str).

I think PairO'Dice makes a salient point. If you ban or choose not to use Alter Self and Knockback, then being a Monstrous Humanoid with Powerful Build is a lot less powerful (though still strong). Or on the flip side, if you're playing with a Druid, Artificer, and Archivist in your party, a melee based PC is going to have a hard time catching up even with Powerful Build. So it all depends on what you plan on doing with your build in the context of your party and your DM.

AstralFire
2009-07-20, 12:52 PM
I think Powerful Build is not too much, but I wouldn't make it human only - humans already have far too much going for them compared to most races.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-20, 12:59 PM
I think PairO'Dice makes a salient point. If you ban or choose not to use Alter Self and Knockback, then being a Monstrous Humanoid with Powerful Build is a lot less powerful (though still strong). Or on the flip side, if you're playing with a Druid, Artificer, and Archivist in your party, a melee based PC is going to have a hard time catching up even with Powerful Build. So it all depends on what you plan on doing with your build in the context of your party and your DM.One thing:Druids keep Powerful Build when they Wildshape. Yes, I realize how little sense that makes. Yes, I realize that's a considerable boost to the already-best grappler in the game. Just pointing it out.