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oxinabox
2009-07-20, 08:51 AM
For dnd 3.5 would this be OK?

Pike:
Exotic melee. 2 handed, piercing
Dmg: 2d4, Crit x3
Reach: 15 ft (longer than normal by 5 ft)
Special:
*If you use a ready action to set a halberd against a charge, you deal double
damage on a successful hit against a charging character.
* Pike may be treated as a simple weapon, however can only be used to set against a charge. (and make the associated attack roll)


I'm not sure it this belongs in the Really world weopons/armour thread.

Pikes are ridiculously long, up to 20 ft.
Basically massive spears.
Normally used against calvery charges (require little training for foot solders)
Swinging them to attack someone would be hard, dues to their massive length.

The 2d4 might not be a good idea, dunno. just think a exotic 2H weapon deserves better than a d8...


Disclaimer: I have only a rough (prob. incorrect) knowledge of this weapon.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-20, 08:57 AM
I'd say it looks fine (it is at least echanically different to other weapons due to its reach, which is what Exotic weapons should be like).

alexi
2009-07-20, 09:02 AM
it was primarily used not against cavalry (developed to be used against cavalry) but against other pike blocks. Pikes were highly inefficient as offensive weapons, in the whole of the ECW there are no recorded deaths from a pike wound. The idea basically is that you had massive formations of pikemen pushing at other massive formations of pike men, the guy's who moved the enemies away from the contested ground "won." Things pikes were good at, keeping cavalry away and protecting musketeers who would then fire into the ranks of the opposing pikes. During the heyday of pikes cavalry mostly fought cavalry, pikes mostly fought pikes.

Flickerdart
2009-07-20, 09:02 AM
Make that critical x3, I'd say. Criticals from one of these things would hurt. The reach is fine because you can't trip with it.

oxinabox
2009-07-20, 09:04 AM
Make that critical x3, I'd say. Criticals from one of these things would hurt.
done, nothing like a foot or two of steal through your chest to get the blood flowing.

alexi
2009-07-20, 09:05 AM
Make that critical x3, I'd say. Criticals from one of these things would hurt. The reach is fine because you can't trip with it.

why would a critical from a pike hurt? it's a very thing piece of metal. if you did get pierced by a pike chances are you could go on fighting.

alexi
2009-07-20, 09:07 AM
done, nothing like a foot or two of steal through your chest to get the blood flowing.

pikes also did not have a "foot or two of steel"

Flickerdart
2009-07-20, 09:09 AM
why would a critical from a pike hurt? it's a very thing piece of metal. if you did get pierced by a pike chances are you could go on fighting.
Well, you're stuck on a pike. Even moving is going to grate your insides. And if you're impaled on the thing, then it went all the way through and hit important fleshy bits, something that I figure didn't often happen with normal sword strikes and the like that would have a larger surface area of attack and thus less penetration.

Perhaps make some sort of mechanical version of this instead of the critical increase, then.

alexi
2009-07-20, 09:14 AM
Well, you're stuck on a pike. Even moving is going to grate your insides. And if you're impaled on the thing, then it went all the way through and hit important fleshy bits, something that I figure didn't often happen with normal sword strikes and the like that would have a larger surface area of attack and thus less penetration.

Perhaps make some sort of mechanical version of this instead of the critical increase, then.

the only problem being thats not how pikes deal damage, they deal very little damage when being wielded non defensively. perhaps X3 crit. on a charge. a mechanical crit. might work better, perhaps giving an ability closer to bull rush.

the other problem bing pikes don't work well outside of massed formations. Are you going to roll for every pike in a block?

oxinabox
2009-07-20, 09:37 AM
pikes also did not have a "foot or two of steel"

My bad, a foot or two of wood.



Are you going to roll for every pike in a block?
um.. no i don't have any imediate plans for this.
i was just thinking.

For bulk soldger i don't roll, I average, both attack and damage and multiply by number, they never crit. critting is for PC's and people hitting PC's.
If their average can't ever hit (ie must roll a 20) then either I'ld take that into account and reduce there average damage (or number) to 1/20th of what it was, and have them yelling "It's too tough! our pikes don't even pierce the sides!" (in a scottish accent)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-20, 12:03 PM
According to this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=694416), it's slightly weak for an Exotic, but a bit too good for martial. I'd drop damage to 1d6 and make it Simple. Pikes were the weapon of impressed commoners, after all.

13_CBS
2009-07-20, 12:09 PM
You may wish to also consult the Real World Weapons & Armor thread, stickied at the top of this forum, for more info on pikes.

alexi
2009-07-20, 12:24 PM
According to this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=694416), it's slightly weak for an Exotic, but a bit too good for martial. I'd drop damage to 1d6 and make it Simple. Pikes were the weapon of impressed commoners, after all.

pike were often the weapons of wealthy highly trained individuals, at least in late 16th thru 17th century which was the high water mark of pike warfare. it takes a lot to have the strength and skill to hold a pike and be put thru the motions of working as a pike block.

the poor rabble would be armed with spears, crossbows and firearms.

I'd like to see the pike do damage against charges and when used to in the "push" it engages a strength check like a bull rush.

bosssmiley
2009-07-20, 12:59 PM
A pike (or sarissa) should really be little more than a (very) longspear that threatens three adjacent squares at 15' range. It's that large, heavy and unwieldy that AOOs outside this narrow threatened area should be nigh-impossible for low-level characters, trained or otherwise.

I think oxinabox was pretty much there with his initial special rules...

One polearm; comic relief: 50 polearms; "uh oh." :smalleek:

hamishspence
2009-07-20, 01:31 PM
Dragon Magazine (and later, Dragon Compendium) had stats for the Awl Pike.

15 ft reach (cannot strike anything closer). Exotic Two headed weapon, 2d4 damage, x2 Critical. Double damage when set to receive a charge.

Not all that good a weapon.

subject42
2009-07-20, 01:40 PM
One polearm; comic relief: 50 polearms; "uh oh." :smalleek:

I would add a mechanic that every adjacent square filled by another pike wielder increases to-hit or AC of the pike wielders. They were originally meant to keep people at stand-off range, after all.

Knaight
2009-07-20, 01:44 PM
A pike (or sarissa) should really be little more than a (very) longspear that threatens three adjacent squares at 15' range. It's that large, heavy and unwieldy that AOOs outside this narrow threatened area should be nigh-impossible for low-level characters, trained or otherwise.

I think oxinabox was pretty much there with his initial special rules...

One polearm; comic relief: 50 polearms; "uh oh." :smalleek:

The polearm bit applies for pikes, but shorter polearms, such as spears could be very threatening in a one on one combat, in tight or open spaces. Two in tight spaces is absolute hell.

Kzickas
2009-07-20, 01:56 PM
How about making it so that it only threatens the square straight in front of you and if an AoO provoked by an enemy succeeds in dealing damage the creature has to stop it's movement in the square it's moving into the threatened square from. and allowing people without exotic proficiency to make these AoOs

awa
2009-07-20, 03:57 PM
The thing to remember about how pikes work with horses is that a horse will refuse to charge a rank of pepole with pikes raised. (horses are smarter then pepole) I also question your comment that pikes never killed any one ill admit my knowledge of late midevil European warfare is a little rusty but my understanding is while they killed a lot less pepole then guns by number of wielder and most battles between blocks of pike were decided by weight of numbers they still did kill pepole. on a similar note i know Macedonian spears which while designed differently were similar in length and they killed a lot of pepole.

Personally i think pikes would work poorly in dungeons and dragons their weapons designed to be used in mass formation not single combat in single combat or in a melee (note i mean the original definition of melee) they would be highly ineffective

lsfreak
2009-07-20, 04:17 PM
How about making it so that it only threatens the square straight in front of you and if an AoO provoked by an enemy succeeds in dealing damage the creature has to stop it's movement in the square it's moving into the threatened square from. and allowing people without exotic proficiency to make these AoOs

There is no "straight in front of you" in D&D, because there are no default facing rules. Every direction is "in front."

oxinabox
2009-07-20, 06:32 PM
I would add a mechanic that every adjacent square filled by another pike wielder increases to-hit or AC of the pike wielders. They were originally meant to keep people at stand-off range, after all.
That would be a class feature of a pike weilder. I have a heavy infantry class that i'll linky to latter.
I'll make a light infantry class for pike weilder maybe.

Also It already has some mechanic to do that: the pike has reach 15 ft, everythiung elese is eaither 10 or 5.
and you can't group people close enough together to get cover from them:
in dnd everyone has personallspace issues: 5ft.

alexi
2009-07-22, 10:00 PM
"I also question your comment that pikes never killed any one"

I stated that there is not one recorded death from a pike in the ECW (including the 2 Bishops Wars and the Cromwell's Irish activities) . If you can drag one up some where I'm all ears. Hell if you can find a death by pike from the 30 years war I'd be interested in that also.

Think of it this way pike up a 16 foot pole and put a spike on the end of it. Now put a friend of yours standing a few yards away from the end. Walk towards him, double time if you like and try to pierce him. You will at most knock him back or over. You may be able to pierce him if you ran at him, but running with a pike you have no chance at aiming. That long far away point will be wandering all over the place. Now imagine rows upon rows of guys trying to run with pikes, they would be tripping up their comrades causing absolute bedlam. Pikes were only dangerous to those charging them, not to those being charged by them, primarily because pike formations could not charge at a run. It was called a push of pikes for a reason.

Lupy
2009-07-22, 10:11 PM
I think your stats look right on.

I also think that nobody cared how soldiers died unless they were someone's son (someone important enough to have them looked for and written down that is) in the English Civil War, and certainly not the horror that was the 30 years war.

alexi
2009-07-22, 10:19 PM
I think your stats look right on.

I also think that nobody cared how soldiers died unless they were someone's son (someone important enough to have them looked for and written down that is) in the English Civil War, and certainly not the horror that was the 30 years war.

Well I'll stick with the facts that HISTORIANS have pointed out the lack of deaths by pike, and as far as I know you are just a internet personality. Take a look at "By The Sword Divided" or "English warfare, 1511-1642". Pike men also were not nobodies but were often members of the "Trayned Bandes" so educated upstanding citizens whose lives we know quite allot about, it would be curious that we know of many deaths, often reporting how many times such and such was shot but no reports of death by pike. Hell I'd even admit that people could be trampled to death by pikemen, or a few might get a pike to the eye or throat killing them. But I still wonder at the lack of deaths by pike wound.

oxinabox
2009-07-23, 12:04 AM
pikes doen't kill people, muskets do.
umm..
pikes doen't kill people, pikes kill/scare horses

Pikes don't kill people, fantasy settings that use them inaccurately kill people.
ie mine atm.

JonestheSpy
2009-07-23, 12:25 AM
I agree that pikes should be simple - it's the weapon of the not-very-trained infantry conscripts.

What I'd add to make the pike the useful weapon that it was is that pikes can be arranged in very dense clusters, that was kinda the whole point. I'd say that you can fit two pikemen in a five foot square, as long as they both have their weapons pointed straight out in front. Also, pikes (and longspears) can be different lengths. Give the ones in front 10 foot spears, the ones directly behind then 15 foot shafts, and now you've got four spearpoints threatening each square.

I'm not SCA, but I have done some historical warfare recreations, and trust me, this works.

Also, if you want to have elite troops using pike tatics, I'd say have a feat that allows using a pike while also using a tower shield for cover- this was the tactic of the elite hoplites of ancient armies.

TheThan
2009-07-23, 12:35 AM
I would scale the damage up from a longspear (going up one size category) and add one to the critical multiplier. Since it’s just a bigger version of a longspear anyway. I also like the restrictions that the OP placed upon it.

Cost: 5
Damage (m): 2d6
Multiplier: x4
Range: 0
Weight: ??
Type: piercing
Proficiency: martial
Special rules:
*Reach 15 ft
*If you use a ready action to set a pike against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character.
*Pike may be treated as a simple weapon, however can only be used to set against a charge. (and make the associated attack roll)

Swordguy
2009-07-23, 02:52 AM
If I may suggest...

Pike
Damage: 1d8 (it's just a big spear, people)
Critical: 20, x2 (see below)
Reach: 10 or 15 feet
Weight: 12 lbs (10' reach) or 16 lbs (15' reach)
Type: Piercing
Proficiency: Simple

Special Rules:
-Two characters wielding pikes may fit into one 5' square, provided the designate a facing on that square as "front". If they do so, the pike may only attack in the line of squares designated, to the limit of the weapon's reach. Further, wielders doing so may only move in the line of their "front" facing or spend their move action to take a single 5' step in any other direction. All wielders doing so much have at least a +1 BAB to take advantage of this rule.
-Pikes may be braced against a charge, and are historically the single most effective weapon at stopping such. As such, the critical hit information changes depending on the incoming speed of an attacker. When an attacker enters a threatened square while charging a pikeman, the pikeman may make an attack of opportunity against the charging character. Check the distance he has moved from the start of his action this round to the actual square in which the pikeman stands. If this distance is 6 squares (30') or less, the weapon deals critical damage as normal. For every additional increment of 6 squares, or portion thereof, add 1 to the critical hit threat range and 1 to the critical hit multiplier. Thusly, a person who must move 17 squares ( 3 increments, or portions thereof, over 6 squares) to attack a pikeman will incur a hit against him with a 17-20 critical hit range and a x4 multiplier. Note that an actual declared "charge" is not necessary to trigger this, simply sufficient movement.



EDITOR'S NOTE: Yes, this means that somebody charging 17 hexes into a pike square with 10' pikes in the front row and 15' pikes in the second will subject himself to 4 attacks at a critical range of 17-20 and a x4 critical multiplier. The lesson here is don't run at the pike hedge. Shoot them from a distance, or have large men move slowly into distance and attack the pikes themselves, or attack the flank or rear.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-07-23, 03:29 AM
Well I'll stick with the facts that HISTORIANS have pointed out the lack of deaths by pike, and as far as I know you are just a internet personality. Take a look at "By The Sword Divided" or "English warfare, 1511-1642". Pike men also were not nobodies but were often members of the "Trayned Bandes" so educated upstanding citizens whose lives we know quite allot about, it would be curious that we know of many deaths, often reporting how many times such and such was shot but no reports of death by pike. Hell I'd even admit that people could be trampled to death by pikemen, or a few might get a pike to the eye or throat killing them. But I still wonder at the lack of deaths by pike wound.

Hi, there is one slight flaw with that...pike blocks that did kill anyone ended up trampling the dead guys underfoot while moving forward and often would have people with daggers finish fallen opponents off while they were on the floor.
The Greek version definitely did kill their opponents with the things due to the lower quality of armour in general (or lack of metal armour in some cases) but during the period of the 17th century a pikeman tended to have a breast plate so that the pike would injure him but not likely pierce somewhere immediately lethal short of getting the throat.

Yes these pikes did not kill directly their opponents but they injured them and left them open to be killed off.
Most of the time the front rank would be injured and dying/being finished off while the rest of the loosing pike block would break and flee.

You are asking for pikes to be used in a fashion they were not used to prove they were deadly and ignore the earlier versions of pikes completely.
It would be like saying there is a like lack of people killed by shields when you are talking about a trained shield wall.
They end up being the cause of the people being taken down and killed but do not kill them directly most of the time.

herophonos
2009-08-13, 12:19 PM
A Greek hoplite phalanx, the members of which fought with a heavy shield (aspis) and single-handed spear (dory), was a very different proposition from the Macedonian phalanx, who had a double-handed pike (sarisa) and perhaps only a small shield slung over the shoulder. The big difference is distance, specifically the distance at which enemy soldiers can no longer physically approach the formation. With close-packed hoplite formation (those 'with sield rooted to shield') that distance is within striking range (and there are multiple references to hoplite combat being conducted 'at spear's length'). At this distance, enemies with spears can still get you - this is why hoplites carried the big shield. A dory is at most 9 feet long, so you can hit someone about 7 feet away. With a hoplite spaced about every 1 1/2 feet in tight formation, it is just about physically impossible to slip between the points of the opposing spears and approach the enemy any closer, especially when they are actively trying to stab you.

A pike formation extends the reach even further. If the pike is 18 feet long, that gives you at least 15 feet of pike out to your front. In this situation, the zone in which your enemy cannot approach is close to that length. For an example, when the Romans fought the Macedonians at Pydna, the Roman infantry could not approach close enough to the Macedonian phalangites to attack them, until they advanced into terrain which broke up the formation. Of course, killing someone with an 18 foot pike who is standing that far away is very, very difficult. The job of breaking and killing the enemies went to the cavalry on the flanks. Even pike formations could not effectively combat pike formations. In the heyday of the Hellenistic pike, at the battle of Raphia, the opposing pike formations could not break each other. On the frontal assault only elephants could manage it.

In both of these situations, the casulty rate for the face-to-face combat was very low. It was only after the formation was broken did the pursuing force have a chance to really come to grips with their enemy and rack up some kills.

The medieval reincarnation of the pike saw more aggressive use. Swiss mercenaries were able to pull off charges by quickly advancing with pikes lowered: again, not so much because the pikes were good at killing soldiers so much as the enemy could not get close enough to deal with them, and subsequently broke formation. Once the enemy broke formation, then the casulties racked up. An example of this is at the Battle of Morat.

D and D doesn't simulate combat (especially mass combat) very well. Pikes were a useful weapon not because they killed people, but because they made a pike formation difficult to get to and therefore difficult to defeat. D and D has no rules which simulate this. I've never seen a D and D combat last more that 3 minutes, in 6-second rounds. Real battles went on for hours. If an enemy suffers no casulties face to face, but breaks formation through fatigue and inability to fight, the pikemen win. In D and D, because the pikes don't stop the enemy approaching the formation, the pikes lose their main reason for existing in the first place, and upping the damage-dealing capability fails to deal with this fundamental problem.

As a weapon outside a massed formation, the only real use pikes saw was as a ship-to-ship weapon in the pre-classical era: for example, Ajax' spear in Homer's Iliad, which he uses when the Trojans are fighting at the Greek ships. There is no reason that I can ever see a PC ever wanting to take a pike. A pike is worse than useless in an open melee: it prevents you from attacking effectively, from carrying a shield, and from being mobile. Current rules are pretty accurate in that regard. As a massed formation, I'd only allow a someone to advance through the 15-foot zone of the pike formation if they either take Tumble checks (like the Spanish rodeleros at the battle of Ravenna in 1512) or opposed strength checks with a Bull Rush (although there are no examples of this ever happening in which I can think of: even when facing soldiers like the Greek hoplites who were more likely to pull it off, due to having big heavy shields).

And as for the pike being a weapon of commoners: they were more likely to use shorter polearms or spears, which are both simple and cheap. Effective use of pikes required lots of drill and specialised training: Macedonians, Ptolemy's native Egyptian phalangalites, the Swiss, the German Landsknecht and even the Scots were all well-trained soldiers, and usually in the middle of the social ladder (under the cavalry, above the skirmishers).

awa
2009-08-13, 05:44 PM
I agree with almost every thing you said about pikes being primarily used to keep each other at bay, i would only add that pike formation could break each other with a pushing contest almost always favoring either the largest formation or the better disciplined its part of how Thebes (i think it was Thebes) broke the Spartans they could field more men and just trample them.

herophonos
2009-08-13, 07:59 PM
The Battle of Leuctra was a hoplite battle, not a pike battle at all. And at that battle the Thebans were, in fact, outnumbered. It was, in fact, an entirely different matter from pike combat. Epiminondas the left side of their line with a column headed by the elite Sacred Band of Thebes 50 ranks deep against a Spartan line of 12 ranks deep. The battle is more of a statement of how an adaptive general with novel tactics could trump predictable and stale opponent. Theban supremacy was, in fact, defeated for the same reason by the emergent Macedonians wielding 18 foot pikes against 9 foot spears. However, even at the battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC, the pike did not break the enemy phalanx formation but engaged it until it was lured into a vulnerable position and destroyed by elite strike cavalry.

The so called 'push of the pike' was so murderous precisely because the opposing formations could not get to grips with each other, leading to a strenuous and drawn-out combat.

Doc Roc
2009-08-13, 08:35 PM
My experience with Pike suggests that they tend to be flaky and a little soft, but not bad with the garlic, peppercorn & lemon-butter treatment.

awa
2009-08-13, 08:39 PM
Ill admit you are correct in regards to that particular battle but it still illustrates the fact that the Thebans had more people pushing then the Spartans and broke their ranks the fact that in this battle they got that advantage through better tactics doesn’t change that.

You are correct hoplites are different then pike men in a number of ways but but they are similar enough to still be relevant to the discussion. Its not really fair to compare Alexander pike battles (I forget what the weapons their actually called) because part of what made him so brilliant was his combined arms forces at a time when this was relatively rare.

sofawall
2009-08-13, 08:48 PM
My experience with Pike suggests that they tend to be flaky and a little soft, but not bad with the garlic, peppercorn & lemon-butter treatment.

I was waiting for a fish comment.

herophonos
2009-08-13, 09:18 PM
The major difference which you're overlooking between the two is that pikemen wield double-handed sarisas and carry a very small shield, if any, and hoplites wield a single-handed spear which is half the length and a 3-foot diameter, 15-odd pound wood and bronze shield. This made the hoplite much more difficult to kill with a spear thrust, while the zone through which the opposing spear-points prevented movement was less than half as deep and dense. And of course the specific example of Leuctra involved two opposing lines of hoplite infantry advancing quickly at one another, in a looser order than could be achieved with static formations, which again lessened the ability of the formation to hold the opposing formation at a distance - instead of the hoplites standing in packed formation occupying about 1 1/2 feet, they were spaced about 3 feet apart. The opposing lines could get into a shoving match, shield against shield rather that a combat at spear length. This is not analogous to pike warfare: the differences are very important.

The reason I mentioned the Macedonians (fighting under Philip, Alexander's father) is because they were fighting Theban hoplites at the battle of Chaeronea, the same type of army with similar tactics as that which defeated the Spartans at Leuctra 30 years earlier.

herophonos
2009-08-13, 11:10 PM
I seem to have drifted off topic of rules for pikes, so here's my attempt:

Pike:
Martial melee weapon, 2 handed, piercing.
Damage: D8, Crit x2
Reach: 15 foot, may not attack less that 15 foot away. As a pike is carried shouldered up into the air a pikeman does not threaten squares unless the they takes a standard action to set it, described below. A pikeman may not charge without the Pike Charge feat. All attacks made with a pike are at -2 to hit due to the cumbersome nature of the weapon.

Special:
If a pike is set, the wielder only threatens three adjacent squares 15 foot away, which the pikeman chooses when they ready the weapon. Moving from a square threatened by a pike into another threatened by a pike, in addition to provoking attacks of opportunity, force a character moving through them to pass a tumble check (DC 12 + the BAB for each pikeman threatening that square), or a strength check (DC 12 + the BAB for each pikeman threatening the square) or stay in the square they started in, losing any remaining move and suffering attacks of opportunity. If the character moving through the squares is charging, the base DC for moving rises to 15 for tumble and 20 for strength checks, and the pike attacks of opportunity do double damage as if a spear braced against a charging foe.

Feat: Pike Charge. Requires weapon focus (pike), BAB +3. Pikemen in this formation may, if their weapons are set from their previous turn, charge only in the direction of the squares they threaten (in formation, if necessary) stopping when the first pike threatens the charged enemy. They may also chose to take move actions with the pike set in the direction of the squares they threaten, no faster than their base move speed, and may make up to 90 degrees worth of turns. Pikemen may not move like this through any form of difficult terrain.

So: rules heavy but emphasizing the actual historical use of pikes. I envision use by mobs of <level 5 warriors or fighters. Getting into a flank or using ranged attacks to kill off all the pikemen threatening a 'lane' are probably the best ways to get melee characters in contact, again in line with historical use.

deuxhero
2009-08-13, 11:37 PM
According to this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=694416),.

Been looking for that.

@herophonos how about adding
Special:A commoner can select pike as his simple weapon proficiency

oxinabox
2009-08-14, 01:34 AM
@herophonos:
Your Pike is incredibly complex.
and also weak for a martial weapon.
But historically accurate.

BTW isn't this thread necromancy

Matthew
2009-08-14, 05:41 AM
BTW isn't this thread necromancy

Not unless it is older then three months. [edit] Looks like they changed that to a month and a half, so 45 days now.