Which Afterlife Would Miko Have Ended Up In?

[Nights1stStar]

I've recently reread the entire comic. For fun, I kept trying to figure out what afterlife each permanently dead character would end up in, based on the assumption that there was one afterlife for each of the nine alignments.

When I got to Miko's death scene, though, I realized I couldn't put her in a fitting place. If you judge by intent, Miko is every bit Lawful Good, yet she's so Lawful Stupid that her reasoning and actions make about as much sense as that of an idiot barbarian. According to comic #490 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), though, compotence doesn't seem to matter as much as intent when it comes to afterlife judgement. By that logic, Miko would be in the Lawful Good afterlife. But I can't imagine her being in the same afterlife as say, Hinjo, a guy who's both Lawful Good AND doesn't stupidly murder his liege lord.

So how much does ability and judgement really matter in afterlife-placing? It mattered less in Roy's case, but only because his "stupid" or "chaotic" actions were never extreme. If you do something really stupid in the name of Good, does that bump you towards the Neutral afterlife? I know many people who'd be happy to see Miko denied entry into the Good afterlives, but if one follows that logic, than Elan would also be in danger of getting barred from heaven, because he's not exactly the brightest crayon in the box. And then you have people like Therkla. On one hand, she genuinely wanted everyone around her to be happy. On the other, she was the servant of an Evil aristocrat, and probably performed many unscrupulous crimes for him before meeting Elan. But Therkla only devoted herself to Kubota because he was one of the few humans willing to take in a half-orc. You could say that societal racism drove Therkla to a life of crime. So despite commiting many evil deeds, would someone like Therkla deserved to be tortured in any of the three versions of hell?

For the record, I am an atheist, so I don't think about the afterlife in real life, only in fictional contexts. I also wasn't one of those people who hated Miko as soon as she was revealed. Was Charisma her dump stat? Was she a paladin stereotype? Yes, but with people like Belkar and Vaarsuvius on the team, she wasn't the only one lacking in people skills, and those two are liked well enough. (Hell, Belkar is one of the most popular characters, and Vaarsuvius is my favorite one. :smallcool: ) It was only after she killed Shojo did I really dislike her, but at least I've never been part of her fan/hatedumb.

[hamishspence]

There are actually 7 Lower Planes.

Therkla's career of evil (compared to her momentary aid of Elan) probably leaves her in trouble, though if she's very lucky she might make Acheron.

(according to Kubota, she's pretty Lawful.

Miko's? Depends on if you think her behaviour in the late stages was evil, chaotic, or both.

I'd say she was still Lawful enough to go to Lawful afterlife.

When I'm feeling generous toward her, I think she might manage Arcadia.
When I'm feeling less generous, Acheron at best.

[Woodsman]

I honestly don't see what being atheist has anything to do with this (it could possibly lead to religious arguments. Best not to bring religion up on public forums at all).

I'm trying to think of which Outer Plane is between Mechanus and Celestia. I believe she'd end up there, honestly. I think it's Arcadia?

[Ancalagon]

Lawful good with a BIG blimp on the malev-o-meter labelled "Shojo". But I still think she still is Lawful Good.

[Woodsman]

Remember, she was told she could see Windstriker, who is technically a celestial. It would have to be an Upper Plane.

[hamishspence]

Arcadia might fit (covers both the Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral).

Though, given Rich's "she pushed and pushed at her alignment and what it means to be a paladin, until finally she broke through" comment in War & XPs, Celestia seems something of a stretch.

[Morty]

Well, I might be wrong, but a lifetime of serving Law and Good as a paladin is something that'd secure one's place in Upper Planes after death even if the paladin in question screwed up at the end of her life.

[Thanatosia]

Arcadia seems right to me. It's the residing place of St Cuthbert, wich although not a OOTSverse diety, is an example of a Diety who calls Arcadia home that I think Miko would feel comfortable serving.

[nihil8r]

I always thought she went to Ohio.

[hamishspence]

Going by Fiendish Codex 2, it isn't. One murder is bad enough. Two would drop you into Nine Hells (even after a lifetime of doing good). Luckily for her, she didn't succeed at murdering Hinjo.

The sheer seriousness of Miko's screw-up is the sort of thing that would probably make a difference when she is judged- it seems more serious than abandoning Elan was, and that act would have dropped Roy into True Neutral afterlife if he hadn't changed his mind.

as Soon pointed out, approximately: "Redemption requires that you accept the possibility that what you did was wrong"

[Optimystik]

I put her in Mechanus at best. Her "lifetime of good" consisted of slaughtering people that detected as Evil, and given her manic attitude I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't at least one undeserved killing in there. (i.e. an evildoer that didn't deserve death.)

Her preface at the beginning of SoD in particular makes my teeth grate.

[Zevox]

Well, from where I'm sitting, she definitely wouldn't make it into Celestia. Roy was almost moved from there to the True Neutral afterlife just for abandoning Elan to the Bandits, and from where I'm sitting, Miko murdering Shojo was a much worse action than that, particularly because she never so much as admitted she was mistaken in doing it, even after she fell because of it. So Celestia is right out for me.

Just so that everyone knows the options, the default D&D afterlife planes, taken from Wikipedia and posted in another thread:


Celestia: Lawful Good.
Bytopia: Good, somewhat lawful.
Elysium: Neutral Good.
The Beastlands: Good, somewhat chaotic.
Arborea: Chaotic Good.
Arcadia: Lawful, somewhat good.
Mechanus: Lawful Neutral.
Acheron: Lawful, somewhat evil.
The Outlands: True Neutral.
Ysgard: Chaotic, somewhat good.
Limbo: Chaotic Neutral.
Pandemonium: Chaotic, somewhat evil.
The Nine Hells of Baator: Lawful Evil.
Gehenna: Evil, somewhat lawful.
Hades: Neutral Evil.
Carceri: Evil, somewhat chaotic.
The Abyss: Chaotic Evil.
Now, from the other options, I'd say the most generous option I'd give her is Arcadia. Heavily lawful, partially good. More likely I'd put her in Mechanus - I'm of the opinion that she was always borderline Lawful Neutral, and slipped into that category when she murdered Shojo.

Given the extreme shift Roy would have gotten for abandoning Elan, though, I don't think we can rule out an even bigger departure from her initial alignment, all the way to the Outlands (True Neutral) or the lawful and partially evil Acheron. I don't think that one action could send her all the way to a fully evil plane like the Hells or Gehenna, though, even in a system where a single action can result in a shift as extreme as Roy's judgment indicates.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

While a Lower Plane, Acheron simply has the "Mildly Law aligned" trait- Good beings don't suffer any penalties on the plane.

[mistformsquirrl]

I tend to think she made it to Celestia.

Reasons being:

1) According to the ghost of Soon, she'll be able to see Windstriker again. As a paladin mount; it seems likely that's where he is.

2) Striking down Shojo was definitely evil, and refusing to surrender to Hinjo afterward compounded the issue - but other than being a real pain, what other evil or chaotic acts did she actually commit? Killing Shojo made her fall from Paladinhood; but nothing says her alignment actually changed.

She pretty much stuck to Lawful Good (in the Lawful Stupid fashion) through everything but that one incident - and being a pain in the arse doesn't mean you're going to switch afterlives or alignments.

*edit*

@Hamishpence - But remember, she specifically was asking "Do I get to be a Paladin again?"

Which of course can't happen, as willingly comitting an evil deed pretty much bars you from that ever again, regardless of alignment or subequent actions (barring DM fiat - ie: something unusually heroic)

[hamishspence]

and breaking out of jail (using her brand of logic to justify it)- which might be strongly Chaotic, as well as destroying the gate unnecessarily and thus "resetting the Doomsday clock" as Redcloak put it.

Unlike the order, she knew that this was a "crime for which the only possible sentence is death" as she put it, to them.

[petersohn]

Another Miko's alignment thread, huh?

All right. She was heavily lawful, no doubt in that. I always saw her as being LN, but she didn't commit anything that would have pulled her down from her "starting" Good alignment. So after killing Shojo, I'd put her in either Arcadia or Mechanus. The line about Windstriker waiting for her gives me doubt in that though. He is certainly celestial. I wonder if he can travel between planes, and if yes, how deep he can go.

[Optimystik]

1) According to the ghost of Soon, she'll be able to see Windstriker again. As a paladin mount; it seems likely that's where he is.

He said Windstriker could "visit" her. Strongly implying they won't be living in the same place. If anything this rules out Celestia even more.


2) Striking down Shojo was definitely evil, and refusing to surrender to Hinjo afterward compounded the issue - but other than being a real pain, what other evil or chaotic acts did she actually commit? Killing Shojo made her fall from Paladinhood; but nothing says her alignment actually changed.

She routinely kills, and has herself admitted she did so for no other reason than they detected as evil. By BoED, that behavior is questionable at best, and if she killed even one person who registered as evil but didn't deserve death (e.g. a thief) that would be enough to put her on the downward path. I'm fully of the opinion that she should have fallen alignment-wise long since, but only really fell when she killed Shojo because he was the Guard's leader. More caprice on the 12 gods' part.


She pretty much stuck to Lawful Good (in the Lawful Stupid fashion) through everything but that one incident - and being a pain in the arse doesn't mean you're going to switch afterlives or alignments.

Being a murderer, however, does.


Which of course can't happen, as willingly comitting an evil deed pretty much bars you from that ever again, regardless of alignment or subequent actions (barring DM fiat - ie: something unusually heroic)

There is another way... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm)
We know the spell exists in OotS because Hinjo specifically planned to use it on her. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) (Or have it used.)

[mistformsquirrl]

However, in destroying the gate, did she even know that Redcloak and Xykon were on the ropes at all?

Remember that O-Chul was going to do exactly that before Xykon paralyzed him; I don't think you can knock her for that.

As for breaking out of prison... I admit that's rather Chaotic; but let's keep perspective on what's happening at the time. The city is being overrun - and rather than simply running away from the fight (difficult, but possible); she went right to where she was supposed to have been if she hadn't fallen.

Obviously I'm not arguing Miko was 'right' or anything less than a complete moron... but I'm not convinced her alignment changed.


*Edit*

I don't entirely buy the "gods didn't want to let her fall" thing.

Could they keep her from falling? Sure. But why do so?

In the case of the goblins, there's an understanding that there's an existential threat - not only to the world; but to the gods themselves. Understandably the gods might just be a wee bit worried about that.

Miko killing people who detect as evil... I have a hard time believing that the gods would be willing to put up with that. I mean what motivation is there to keep an unstable individual in a position of safeguarding something that could potentially be a threat to the gods? You'd think if they had a reason for her to fall sooner, they would have used it.

(I'll add I haven't read Start of Darkness or Origin of PCs)

[hamishspence]

the phrase "pushing and pushing at her alignment" used in War & XPs commentary, implies she was on the brink of a change already, so she was possibly "only just lawful good" allowing the act to change her alignment.

[mistformsquirrl]

Ahh, I don't have the books; so I'll admit I missed that.

[hamishspence]

Roy's "You're not what I would call good" speech to her might also be a lampshade of her "nearly neutral" status.

Though some of his comments do have an element of pot calling kettle black about them.

[thepsyker]

2) Striking down Shojo was definitely evil, and refusing to surrender to Hinjo afterward compounded the issue - but other than being a real pain, what other evil or chaotic acts did she actually commit? Killing Shojo made her fall from Paladinhood; but nothing says her alignment actually changed.
If leaving a friend to a possible death is enough to move one from the Lawful Good afterlife to the True Neutral pile, actually murdering ones unarmed octinigenarian lord should be more then enough to get one kicked from the Lawful Good afterlife. And if it isn't its rather unfair to all those other LG individuals who manage to get through life without brutally murdering any old men.

[Porthos]

Over/Under: 17 pages.

=========

I'll be optimistic and take the Under. :smalltongue:

Anyway either Arcadia or Mechanus. Depends on how much she slipped at the end of her life. As as been noted, Rich himself intimated that she was barely Lawful Good even before she went coo coo for cocca puffs. Which sounds like a one way ticket for one of those two planes.

Then let's bring in the Hardheads Harmonium (which is based out of Arcadia). If there was EVER a Planar Faction that was begging for Miko to join up, it would be the Harmonium. Heck, they probably had a statue ready to be made of her before she had her little "whoopsie moment".

And, even then, there's probably more than a couple Hardheads that said, "Shojo had it coming" while nodding their heads in approval. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Though I must admit "Miko the Justicator of Acheron" would be interesting- Justicators are the Acheron equivalent of angels, dedicated to smashing anything chaotic- they appear in MM 3.

And look like angels with mottled black and white feathered wings.

[Optimystik]

I don't entirely buy the "gods didn't want to let her fall" thing.

Could they keep her from falling? Sure. But why do so?

In the case of the goblins, there's an understanding that there's an existential threat - not only to the world; but to the gods themselves. Understandably the gods might just be a wee bit worried about that.

Miko killing people who detect as evil... I have a hard time believing that the gods would be willing to put up with that. I mean what motivation is there to keep an unstable individual in a position of safeguarding something that could potentially be a threat to the gods? You'd think if they had a reason for her to fall sooner, they would have used it.

(I'll add I haven't read Start of Darkness or Origin of PCs)

The behavior of OotS gods is impossible to justify. They are ultrapowerful children. It's the only explanation that fits, unless the Giant is disregarding BoED completely, which would invalidate lots of other sentiments (such as Roy's speech in Origin.)

[mistformsquirrl]

If leaving a friend to a possible death is enough to move one from the Lawful Good afterlife to the True Neutral pile, actually murdering ones unarmed octinigenarian lord should be more then enough to get one kicked from the Lawful Good afterlife. And if it isn't its rather unfair to all those other LG individuals who manage to get through life without brutally murdering any old men.

While I don't disagree entirely - you can't separate what she did from what Shojo did.

Shojo keep in mind, was betraying (to the Paladin's eyes) everything they held sacred.

That's not me saying "It's fine" - far from it; but Roy abandoning Elan was "I find him annoying". No "Elan is a potential threat to everything I hold dear." or "Elan has utterly betrayed me/my people." just "He's irritating."

In other words: There's some mitigation there. Not enough to turn it into a Neutral act *by far* (and also it's a non-lawful act, since the lawful thing to do would have been to try him) - but it's also not the same as abandoning someone who trusts you to an uncertain fate "Because he's annoying".

That said given the notes from books I don't have; I may have been mistaken. I didn't realize that she was barely hanging on to her alignment prior to meeting the OOTS since all I have to go on is the web stuff >.> gotta buy those books eventually.

Ahh well, no big deal really; just how I saw it.

[Porthos]

Though I must admit "Miko the Justicator of Acheron" would be interesting- Justicators are the Acheron equivalent of angels, dedicated to smashing anything chaotic- they appear in MM 3.

And look like angels with mottled black and white feathered wings.

I agree that it sounds interesting. Except Miko's modus operandi wasn't really centered around Smashing Chaos in the Face. Yeah, I can see how her utter dedication to Law might eventually morph/evolve into that. But we really never saw it in the comic much.

Interesting idea, tho. As is the idea of mottled black and white feathers. :smallwink:

[Platinius]

What kind of place is Arcadia?

[Porthos]

What kind of place is Arcadia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

(with proviso that things change slightly from edition to edition and from sourcebook to sourcebook)

[hamishspence]

I agree that it sounds interesting. Except Miko's modus operandi wasn't really centered around Smashing Chaos in the Face. Yeah, I can see how her utter dedication to Law might eventually morph/evolve into that. But we really never saw it in the comic much.


We do see her chiding two paladins for considering visiting an inn where the employees gamble, and being extremely sniffy when they point out "Gambling isn't inherently evil, just Chaotic" in a War & XPs bonus strip.

Arcadia is fairly peaceful when its not being invaded. According to Manual of the Planes, the natives have a very short way with evil intruders (as in, kill on sight) but are more relaxed toward the Neutral or Chaotic Good. Neutral alignment people tend to be asked to finish their business and leave.

MM V Arcadian Avengers are:

"benevolent and helpful, but see adherence to the rules as more important than kindness"
"see all situations as a series of applied rules, and are free of hesitation, doubt, and remorse"
"some fall into lawful neutral behaviour, foregoing compassion in the execution of their duties"
"are much more strongly aligned with law than good"

[Platinius]

Well, it definatly sounds better than the big fire below.

[thepsyker]

While I don't disagree entirely - you can't separate what she did from what Shojo did.

Shojo keep in mind, was betraying (to the Paladin's eyes) everything they held sacred.

That's not me saying "It's fine" - far from it; but Roy abandoning Elan was "I find him annoying". No "Elan is a potential threat to everything I hold dear." or "Elan has utterly betrayed me/my people." just "He's irritating."

In other words: There's some mitigation there. Not enough to turn it into a Neutral act *by far* (and also it's a non-lawful act, since the lawful thing to do would have been to try him) - but it's also not the same as abandoning someone who trusts you to an uncertain fate "Because he's annoying".
Ah, but you could also say that Roy had some mitigation compared to Mikio's in that his was one of inaction that only had the death of a good individual as one possibility, while with Mikio it was a direct action leading to her personally bringing about the death of a good individual. Personally, I would say that her intentions while being a mitigating factor would only bring it to the point of being just about as bad as Roy's, considering the severity of the actions she took.

[Porthos]

We do see her chiding two paladins for considering visiting an inn where the employees gamble, and being extremely sniffy when they point out "Gambling isn't inherently evil, just Chaotic" in a War & XPs bonus strip.

There's also the business with the mattress tag (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html). :smallwink:

Still, and I was keeping those two events in mind, I did say "much", not "never". :smallsmile: While she was a bit.... uptight.... those sort of things, I still maintain she was all about Shooting Smashing Evil In the Face (http://sluggy.com/daily.php?date=080223&mode=weekly).

That "Arcadian Avenger" thing sounds fairly interesting, Mikowise. And fairly spot on as well.

[hamishspence]

yes, despite the style of the Justicator, I can't imagine Miko "according equal respect to archons and devils, and equal hatred to demons and eladrins"

Avenger is closer to her personality (and is depicted as female, and dual-wields swords).

[David Argall]

Our base guide here is 464, and Soon's comments. They consistently are more reasonable the closer we put Miko to LG. We don't expect the paladins to take a long detour to usher Miko to her destination. Windstriker is eager to see her and will visit when he can. The more distant we put Miko from LG, the less he should want to, and the less likely he would be able to visit. Soon's general attitude also argues for Miko ending up at least close to LG. Tho it may not be wrong to call him kind hearted, he is very the stern and stick-up-the-ass paladin in almost all of our pictures of him. Given the justified complaints he has against her, it is much easier to accept his behavior if we put Miko as LG or close to it.



She routinely kills, and has herself admitted she did so for no other reason than they detected as evil.
a-She remains a paladin, and thus LG, after "doing so".
b-She has admitted no such thing. 228 says she killed some who detected as evil, but we know she does not go around casually detecting for evil. So she had some reason to detect for evil, and thus some reason besides their detecting as evil for killing them. An entirely reasonable scenario here is that she had a "criminal" that would be very difficult to transport to a court, and she used a detect evil as a last appeal from immediate justice.

[hamishspence]

228 says she killed some who detected as evil, but we know she does not go around casually detecting for evil.


Do we know this? Or just surmise it?

[Optimystik]

An entirely reasonable scenario here is that she had a "criminal" that would be very difficult to transport to a court, and she used a detect evil as a last appeal from immediate justice.

"Surrender or have that sentence carried out immediately." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) She has appointed herself judge, jury and executioner. Furthermore, we know that detect evil is imperfect (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), so using it as her sole arbitration tool even when you have cause to do so is still no reason to kill. Since she wasn't even aware that it could be fooled in this way before meeting the Order, there's no telling how many innocents who detected wrongly could have died by her hands.

[Porthos]

Our base guide here is 464, and Soon's comments.

"Even now we are fading to the Celestial Realms. We will usher you to your destination as well" strongly implies that she isn't destined for the mountain. Otherwise he would have said "we will take you with us" or "we will take you there as well" or "you will be coming with us" et etc.

Circumstantial evidence can also be found in the "(Windstriker) will visit you as much as he is able". If Miko was to be in Celestia, there would be very little difficulty for Windstriker to visit her whenever he wanted to. But if he had to fill out bureaucratic forms to get into other planes temporarily had to go through some process to be able to visit another plane, then Soon's comment makes much more sense.

But we've been through this whole discussion more than a few times, so I doubt you'll buy the argument this time. :smallwink: I only bring it up for people who aren't familiar with the back and forth of the debate. :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

"Surrender or have that sentence carried out immediately." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)

Even Worse:

When Roy attempts to say something like: Hold on, we ain't going with you till you explain what is going on, she immediately attacks them.

It was PERFECTLY reasonable for Roy to demand an explanation from Miko. For Miko to launch into an attack when all Roy was doing was demanding proof that Miko wasn't some random crazy person was neither Lawful nor Good.

[hamishspence]

In fact, Miko's attempt to kill Roy might even be taken as evidence that

"attempted murder doesn't make a paladin fall- only actual murder does"

[Porthos]

In fact, Miko's attempt to kill Roy might even be taken as evidence that

"attempted murder doesn't make a paladin fall- only actual murder does"

I've always wondered what would have happened to Miko if she succeeded in killing Roy. :smallwink: Would the fact that he fought back (in self defense) had changed anything? I doubt it. But it would certainly have been interesting to see the Twelve Gods hem and haw as they try to find a loophole for Miko to skirt through. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

I wondered if she'd have fallen for killing Belkar in Shojo's throne room. Is Belkar completely clueless on paladin alignment, or is he not as dumb about this as he can be about other things?:

"Plus, there's a chance that if she associates with me, she'll lose all her paladin powers"

"Hello, fighter without any bonus feats"

"Miko's just committed her very first evil act- lets all give her a round of applause"

Is his "intellect comparable to a table- thus his opinion is not to be relied on"?

Or is, as an evil guy, Belkar quite knowledgeable about what is evil?

[Chameon]

Honestly, I think the good portion of her alignment is in the safe zone even AFTER the death of Shojo. I honestly think that that action was more from a chaotic point then a neccesarily evil or good perception. Shojo certainly proved that there WAS a conspiracy theory he was involved in in the eyes of the two paladins outside the room, Miko'd been driven nutso courtesy of Belkar, he'd protected (from her view and plain sight) Belkar from her, despite him murdering a guard. That's not to say that Miko's a good person for slaying Shojo, she just suspected him of evil enough for it to be a "Screw detect evil, he's blinding it somehow, just kill him." And that is certainly not with how her moral code (I.E. Lawful portion of alignment) worked thus far. It was an evil action by the view of most of the people there AND the gods she worshipped so I guess that caused her to fall.

And no, I'm not a fan of Miko's I'm trying to avoid rigging it to the one I AM a fan of that appears in this paragraph several times.

[Porthos]

I wondered if she'd have fallen for killing Belkar in Shojo's throne room. Is Belkar completely clueless on paladin alignment, or is he not as dumb about this as he can be about other things?:

"Plus, there's a chance that if she associates with me, she'll lose all her paladin powers"

"Hello, fighter without any bonus feats"

"Miko's just committed her very first evil act- lets all give her a round of applause"

Is his "intellect comparable to a table- thus his opinion is not to be relied on"?

Or is, as an evil guy, Belkar quite knowledgeable about what is evil?

He's acting like a PC using out of OOC info. :smalltongue:

More seriously, Belkar has seen to be somewhat knowledgeable/astute when it comes to matters of alignment, for whatever reason. His commentary about Lord Shojo for one. Or the crack about "Welcome to the Deep End of the Alignment Pool".

And even if we set that aside, everyone (in a DnD setting) knows (or think they know*) about the whole Paladin Falls thing. :smallwink: So for Belkar to know about it would be on par with him knowing about Hit Points and the like.

Although it is slightly ironic that he knows more about Paladin Class Features than his own. Perhaps that's just down to "Tormenting Uptight Goody Two Shoes" is fun while "Learning All of the Fine Print Stuff About Your Own Class" is boring. And we all know how Belkar reacts to "boring".

So I guess we could classify this as "what Belkar finds funny/interesting versus what Belkar finds Boring". Sort of similar to the chart seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html). :smallcool:

* I say "think they know" since the "violate the Paladin Code" was brillantly subverted in a bonus strip in WaXP. :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

(I was thinking more along the lines of "knows what counts as evil enough to make a paladin fall" since its clear he knows that they can.)

and yes, that "Meh, we'll atone in the morning" bit was one of the better ideas.

[Samurai Jill]

Which Afterlife Would Miko Have Ended Up In?
That depends entirely upon the rate of alignment change in relation to specific acts of a given moral magnitude, the particulars of which are either rarely or never spelt out in the rules. In short, it is impossible to tell with any objectivity... *sighs*

[Porthos]

Maybe Belkar is an Alignment Savant. :smalltongue: It's possible that he's just really good when it comes to those things. "That's for forcing me to commit a quasi-good act" comes to mind.

Or maybe he was wrong about Miko Falling in that situation. He's been wrong from time to time after all. :smallwink:

But, when push comes to shove, he does seem to have a fairly decent grasp on Evil, at the very least. Which, of course, allows him to be all the more sadistic when the situation calls for it.

[MReav]

I think it might be interesting if she turned out to be some kind of ghost. Kind of a messenger girl of the gods, sent on missions too unimportant for a Sending Spell to be used.

[Conuly]

Kind of a messenger girl of the gods, sent on missions too unimportant for a Sending Spell to be used.

Missions that take her far away for months at a time?

[MReav]

Missions that take her far away for months at a time?

Yes. I think it's a proper punishment. She's stuck doing the same things she did in her old life, but without any of the importance.

[dps]

Yes. I think it's a proper punishment. She's stuck doing the same things she did in her old life, but without any of the importance.

I don't see how it would be a punishment, because Miko, being Miko, would think that her tasks were important.

[archon_huskie]

I believe that Miko would be spending much of her time in the afterlife visiting people she has wronged in her life and apologizing to them. That means she would actually be traveling to different planes.

[Milskidasith]

Miko and apologies do not go together, at all.

[David Argall]

"Surrender or have that sentence carried out immediately." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) She has appointed herself judge, jury and executioner.
And she gave Roy a chance to surrender, attacking only when he refused [Roy never did offer to surrender], and breaking off the attack when there was evidence she was in possible error.



there's no telling how many innocents who detected wrongly could have died by her hands.
The presumptive answer is zero. Killing an innocent is an evil act and she was still an unfallen paladin at that point.



Do we know this? Or just surmise it?
Given the limited amount of evidence we have, we are pretty much surmising everything. However we do not see her detecting evil on Samantha & Dad, and not on other strangers where she had no reason to deem them criminals. She just detects on the OOTS, accused of endangering the entire world.

[Tempest Fennac]

To be honest, I don't class Miko killing Shojo as stupid at all; based on what she knew IC, along with Shojo's "attempts" to explain his actions, killing him made sense due to how, if he was working for Xykon, keeping him alive would have been dangerous. Going back to SoD, I'd say the Paladon's actions near the start of the book were much worse then Miko killing Shojo but they didn't fall (I tend to think that the only reason Miko fell was because of Shojo helping the gods to keep their status quo in place; if he'd have been a defenceless old Goblin who Miko was convinced was part of The Plan, killing him probably wouldn't have resulted in her falling).

As far as her afterlife goes, I'd say the normal LG part of Celestia rather then the part with Paladins due to how she was LG as far as her intentions went (I'd say she was basically sane until she fell, where she ended up losing it completely). Dispite Roy claiming she wasn't really good (which I consider to be a joke considering Roy's tendancy to look down on everyone else unless they are a part of what he's doing), there's no evidence of evil actions, barring possible killing the Ogres who were apparently asked to kidnap the Dirt Farmer, but the lack of falling suggests that the gods wither don't see IC knowledge as relevant (which wouldn't make sense considering what happened with Shojo), or they didn't care because she was only killing Ogres.

[pflare]

Ysgard: Chaotic, somewhat good.

Honestly this is where I would put Miko but I am not the final say, its just my interpretation. However, I would just like to point out that Roy's Chaoticish actions weren't taken into question because he was repententfor them and still strived to be LG. As Soon's Ghost said to Miko, she never admitted that she was wrong or could even be wrong therefore in my mind she wouldn't be able to go to the LG afterlife.

I think Ysgard because of the majorly chaotic and evil actions of killing Shojo and killing people who crossed the tiniest of lines of the law.

[LuisDantas]

If you judge by intent, Miko is every bit Lawful Good,

Arguable, at best.

Miko has little love for Order, at least by the time that she finds out about Shojo's manipulations, but going back so far as her unexplainable decision to attempt to kill the OOtS despite being explicitly told not to.

Nor does she have much afinity for Good at all; she kills thieves that are no match for her and takes each and every available oportunity to feed her own ego at the expense of others.

She deluded herself into thinking that she was Lawful Good. But she is True Neutral Self-Serving, lapsing into Insane True Neutral Self-Serving after she is depowered.

Of course, self-serving leads slowly but unavoidably to Evil. So there is no better afterlife available to her than the Outlands. I personally would put her in Limbo, given her utter madness as of the time of her death.

[Kish]

Somewhere happier and shinier than where Shojo wound up, is all I ask.

[silvadel]

Ok -- I think she was right on the borderline of mech/arcadia and headed for mech right up until the moment she asked about windstriker. The reaction from Soon was enough for me to figure she teetered into arcadia at that moment when she showed that her fate was less important than the ability to see her companion. IE that there was indeed some hope for her.

[Optimystik]

Somewhere happier and shinier than where Shojo wound up, is all I ask.

Shojo is worse than Miko? Who murdered who, then? :smallconfused:

[Talya]

Miko was never a good paladin. She always focused too much on rigid interpretations of rules and not enough on actually being a good person and making the world a better place. She nearly killed a party of heroes just to accomplish what she perceived as her duty. When she fell, she betrayed every principle she stood for, she betrayed her vows and her code. She killed a good (or at least decent) man, and her lawful ruler. Miko is, in my mind, unlikable, and possibly irredeemable thanks to her pride. She certainly deserves punishment, not reward, for her afterlife. That said...


I always thought she went to Ohio.

Oh come on. She's not that bad. Give her a break.

[SaintRidley]

Oh come on. She's not that bad. Give her a break.


It's not like he was suggesting sending her to Wisconsin.

[Tempest Fennac]

As far as the Bandits went, one of them tried to use Hold Person on her, so Miko would have been a moron to assume that Samantha wasn't a threat, and after killing her it was inevitable that her father would try to avenge her death (the fact that Miko still expected him to want to help her is worrying as far as her social skills go, though).

As far as Shojo goes, I think he got what he deserved for lying to people who were loyal to his cause solely for his own benefit (refering to the senality). My stance is that if he was too incompitant to do something about the assasination attempts, he should have tried something else that didn't involve lying rather then continuing as an autocratic dictator. His ridiculous plan to get the Order to Azure City could have been avoided without any problems with Miko by just sending Teleport Wizard Guy (or someone) with information from Roy's father (along with information which only Roy would know to prove that it was from Eugene).

I haven't seen any evidence that Miko wasn't good barring the fact that she gave the Order the same sort of treatment which Roy and V routeinly give to non-important NPCs.

[Optimystik]

As far as Shojo goes, I think he got what he deserved for lying to people who were loyal to his cause solely for his own benefit (refering to the senality). My stance is that if he was too incompitant to do something about the assasination attempts, he should have tried something else that didn't involve lying rather then continuing as an autocratic dictator.

Let me get this straight: He deserved to die because he couldn't defend himself from people that wanted to kill him without lying? (I won't even go into the reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) they wanted him dead.)

That is unbelievably draconian of you.

[Kish]

Shojo is worse than Miko? Who murdered who, then? :smallconfused:
For a sufficiently metaphorical definition of "murdered," both of them murdered each other.

Who turned whom into a weapon? "I remember the day you chose me to come to the castle. I was still a child, but you told me you saw the power in me. I cried the first night away from the dojo, but you came and told me the gods needed my strength. That now I served the gods, that we did their work here." And he laughed at how stupid the paladins were behind their backs...Yes, Shojo was worse than Miko.

[Tempest Fennac]

I hate liars, especially when they are in a position of authority (my logic is that nobody was forcing him to make unpopular laws like that, but we know Azure City lacks freedom of speech, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0272.html , and the dialogue between Tsukiko and Tharn when they fought, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html , suggests that she was locked up solely for animating corpses rather then because she was harming anyone with them, so peaceful protests would probably result in the people responsible getting locked up (at least based on what we know about AC).


EDIT: I agree with Kish's point here as well, which is why I blame Shojo for Miko's lack of social skills and world view.

[Thrax]

I believe she would go to Mechanus. She was certainly lawful, but was it Lawful Good? Rather Lawful stupid of sorts. Her "lawfulness" was not entirely good, was almost... yeah, mechanical. Mechanus must be a proper place for her, though I pity a bit how she ended up.

[Optimystik]

For a sufficiently metaphorical definition of "murdered," both of them murdered each other.

Who turned whom into a weapon? "I remember the day you chose me to come to the castle. I was still a child, but you told me you saw the power in me. I cried the first night away from the dojo, but you came and told me the gods needed my strength. That now I served the gods, that we did their work here." And he laughed at how stupid the paladins were behind their backs...Yes, Shojo was worse than Miko.

I'm not sure if basing your argument on the start of Miko's insane Xanatos rant is particularly helpful. :smallamused:

As for Shojo: yes, he scoffed at their overly restrictive moral code, rather like every (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html) non-paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0482.html) character in OotS. That's hardly duplicitous. In fact, what he most likely felt was frustration, not disrespect; out of their blind devotion to an impractical oath, they were willing to sit in the city and squander their martial abilities until it was too late to use them effectively.

"I value the paladins and their contribution to the city" doesn't sound like laughing to me.

Finally, laying all the blame for her psychosis on Shojo is rather unfair without details. How did her real parents die? What was the dojo like where she grew up? What did she see on her many travels abroad? And why didn't the gods reign her in (directly or by proxy) when her alignment started slipping? No, I don't think Shojo can realistically be placed lower than Miko on the morality scale, at least until we know the answers to those and other questions.

[SadisticFishing]

Excellent point about Mechanus. She reminds me of Inevitables. She'd be happy there.

Shojo did everything he did for GOOD. We know that lying is not inherently Evil in D&D, not even close. He may have even poked fun of the rigidity of LG people.

Which is EXACTLY what entire alignment is based off. Chaotic Good is awesome, no?

Wishing bad things on Shojo is entirely unfair.

[Tempest Fennac]

Looking at SoD, I'd argue that helping the dieties to keep things as they are is evil based on how they could have easily solved the problems they caused which lead to The Plan by now if they wanted to.

[SadisticFishing]

Except then Evil is completely misdefined in this game world.

[Tempest Fennac]

I know what you mean about that, Sadistic. (I'm looking at the issue using standard D&D alignments here.)

[Zevox]

Finally, laying all the blame for her psychosis on Shojo is rather unfair without details. How did her real parents die? What was the dojo like where she grew up? What did she see on her many travels abroad? And why didn't the gods reign her in (directly or by proxy) when her alignment started slipping?
Not to mention "was she just an egocentric bitch?"

Not everything about people is determined by outside influences. Some aspects of our personality simply come from our own thought processes. I personally suspect that was the case with Miko's self-absorption and conviction that she could do no wrong. She learned what Paladins were (which seems to be all Shojo was telling her in the quote Kish gave), then took it to it's logical extreme based on her extreme egocentrism. Paladins are divine warriors who do the gods' work, and she was now a Paladin, so therefore anything and everything she did was now divinely sanctioned and infallibly just. And by the time she fell, that view of the world was so ingrained in her that even the fact that she was no longer a Paladin could shake it.

Zevox

[Optimystik]

Not to mention "was she just an egocentric bitch?"

Believe me, I considered that one too, but I figured I'd keep the argument on Kish's terms, and she was taking the nurture route, so... :smallsmile:

[thepsyker]

and the dialogue between Tsukiko and Tharn when they fought, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html , suggests that she was locked up solely for animating corpses rather then because she was harming anyone with them, so peaceful protests would probably result in the people responsible getting locked up (at least based on what we know about AC).How does animating corpses equal peaceful protest. For all we know she was grave robbing and then animating corpses without permission of the deceased or their families. How would you feel if someone dug up one of your deceased relatives and turned them into a zombie? Its perfectly reasonable to assume that that was the reason she was locked up over some sort of peaceful protest, well that and the comic you posted implies necrophilia was involved which only makes it worse..

[Porthos]

Well according to the author of the strip himself, Shojo isn't exactly blameless in his own death. If he had actually, you know, TOLD the paladins about the severity of the crisis, instead of just presuming that they'd be a bunch of stuck up prigs about it, then maybe things would have turned out differently.

Or maybe not.

But because lying was as second nature as breathing to Shojo, he never even contemplated the idea.

Now I'm not going to enter a Who Is More To Blame For The Situation game. Nor am I going to go down the (False) Moral Equivalency road. But let's not be blind to the fact that Lord Shojo is hardly an innocent here. Dude played with fire and ended up burned as a result.

EDIT:::

Here's the relevant commentary from WaXP:


An important note, though: While Shojo is portrayed sympathetically in the strip, his final fate is directly a result of his own scheming backfiring. No one held a wand to his head and forced him to deceive the Sapphire Guard; like Miko he considered himself above the law. Anger on the part of the paladins was a forceable consequence of his actions. As Celia said in her closing arguments back at the trial, part of being Lawful Good is knowing when to change the law. Shojo could have come to the paladins when Dorukan's Gate was destroyed and asked them to terminate Soon's Oath to not interfere, but he didn't. He went behind their backs and hired the Order. And died as a result.

Insightful commentary like this can be found in all of the collection books. Which is a great reason to pick them up. At the very least one can see where Rich was coming from on some of his plotlines. :smallsmile:

[Tempest Fennac]

I wasn't saying Tsukiko's actions were a protest of any sort; I was refering to how she appears to have been locked up for seeing Undead as equal to living beings (regarding the bit about her grave robbing, it wouldn't bother me that much if it was happening to relatives; I tend to just see corpses as nothing more then lifeless collections of organic materials). As far as Tsukiko went, I saw that comic, as well as the others from around that time, as suggesting she sees undead as children in a lot of cases (I took the comic where she met Xykon to be evidence that she is a necrophile, though).

I'd never considered the possibility of Shojo trying to change that law; wouldn't violating the Oath by ditching the non-interferance part be likely to cause the Paladins to fall from their point of view?

[SadisticFishing]

Errr.. Undead are abominations of nature, their very existence makes the world more Evil.

[Porthos]

wouldn't violating the Oath by ditching the non-interferance part be likely to cause the Paladins to fall from their point of view?

Why would it?? If they could be convinced that Times Had Changed and the very existance of the world was at stake, then why couldn't they decide that Soon's Oath was counterproductive and had to be altered.

Besides, as a bonus strip in WaXP hints...

it's not as if the SG couldn't have asked/divined Soon's opinion on all of this if the SG REALLY wanted to. Even if it was only an empathic feeling type thing.

I say this because Lord Shojo comments that Eugene's presence was making "forces in the throne room uncomfortable". This pretty much leads me to believe that Lord Soon was, if not hanging around 24/7, at least having some presense around the place. It colud even lead to this scene:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif: Okay now. Give us an empathic blast of annoyance if you agree with Lord Shojo or give us two empathic balst annoyance if you don't agree with him. :smalltongue:

Now I fully agree that it's a big if. But what Shojo could have said is, "Look, once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern. There's only three gates left now. Maybe we better starting pooling our resources, or you know... all hang seperately"

The Sapphire Guard, with one unfortunate exception (:smallwink:), isn't stupid. It's very possible they could have seen the wisdom of Lord Shojo's arguments. At the very least they could have allowed the hiring of an Outside Contractor to look into things.

Like say a certain Order that Lord Shojo just found out about. :smallyuk:

[Tempest Fennac]

Whether they are or not can be subjective (I ignore anything the gods in OotS land think of ethics due to why they created non-PC races, and the Paladins don't seem to be the best people to comment on this sort of thing based on SoD). (Admittedly, I hate undead for that reason, but I thought Tsukiko came across as much more persuasive then Tharn when they were discussing Tsukiko switching sides.)

EDIT: I didn't realise they could ask Soon, Porthos. That changes everything regarding why Shojo should have asked them about it.

[Porthos]

(I ignore anything the gods in OotS land think of ethics due to why they created non-PC races,

Point of Order.

Isn't that a bunch of Goblin Propaganda? What independant verification do we have that that is how the Gods actually think?

Oh, sure, satirical comment on Hack-n-Slash games. I realize that. But I think it should be remembered who is actually telling the story there before accepting it as 100% Gospel Truth. :smallwink:

Edit to your Edit:


EDIT: I didn't realise they could ask Soon, Porthos. That changes everything regarding why Shojo should have asked them about it.

I'm not saying they definitely could have. I'm saying it was possible. ANd even if it wasn't, the paladins shouuld have had enough memebers with enough wisdom to realize that The Situation Had Changed and they they'd better get cracking on the problem.

You see, I see part of the problem as people actually beleiving that paladins are Stuck Up Prigs Who can Never Change Their Minds About Things. What they fail to realize is that paladins are, by and large Stuck Up Prigs Who Won't Change Their Minds About Things Unless Given A Very Good Reason.

It's that cruical last biut that people tend to forget. And, it looks like, so to did Lord Shojo. :smallwink:

[Tempest Fennac]

I was assuming that crayons were used to demonstrate that the story was true (unless the creation story Shojo told was fake, but that can't be proved to be true either).

[Porthos]

I was assuming that crayons were used to demonstrate that the story was true (unless the creation story Shojo told was fake, but that can't be proved to be true either).

As an person who is a fan of works with Unreliable Narrators, anything not told in Third Person Omniscient Narration is automatically suspect in my view.

Especially when it's a load of propaganda that is specifically designed to play with hearts and minds. :smallwink:

In other words, it might be broadly true. But it also might have elements of self-serving gunk in there. Like, for instance, the reason why Monster Races exist.

Remeber, that whole scene is Redcloak's version of history. While he isn't a complusive liar, it's not beyond him to... shade things from time to time.

And, heck, maybe he even believes his own story.

Regardless, we can't presume as Absolute Gospel Truth that the sole reason why Monster Races Exist is to give Low Level Parites something to defeat is actually completely accurate. Unless we see some Third Person Ominscent Narration that actually backs it up.

And, so far, we haven't.

[David Argall]

Why would it?? If they could be convinced that Times Had Changed and the very existance of the world was at stake, then why couldn't they decide that Soon's Oath was counterproductive and had to be altered.
The only evidence we have argues that Shojo was right and they would have rejected the idea.


Besides, as a bonus strip in WaXP hints...

it's not as if the SG couldn't have asked/divined Soon's opinion on all of this if the SG REALLY wanted to. Even if it was only an empathic feeling type thing.

I say this because Lord Shojo comments that Eugene's presence was making "forces in the throne room uncomfortable". This pretty much leads me to believe that Lord Soon was, if not hanging around 24/7, at least having some presense around the place.
W&XP Actually, this argues the reverse [if we assume the writer considered the point]. Since Soon knew of Shojo's plan, and was able to communicate his opinion to Shojo, Shojo had a very good read on how the paladins would react. The easiest conclusion is that Soon reacted very negatively to the whole idea, and thus Shojo had to go around the paladins.



The Sapphire Guard, with one unfortunate exception (:smallwink:), isn't stupid.
On the available evidence, that is more likely to be Hinjo than Miko. While her sanity can be argued, she has shown herself quite clever several times, while Hinjo has shown a distinct lack of imagination.


It's very possible they could have seen the wisdom of Lord Shojo's arguments. At the very least they could have allowed the hiring of an Outside Contractor to look into things.

It seems much more likely they would have rejected the idea out of hand, and probably deposed Shojo on the spot.

[Porthos]

I gotta say David, it's ironic that you have less faith in the SG to Do The Right Thing than I do. :smalltongue:

BTW: Any comment about Rich's take on Lawful Good and changing the law?

PS: I meant isn't stupid as in quality of wisdom. There were plenty of SG members that kept a cool enuf head on their shoulders and were willing to look at the big picutre.

If Shojo had come to them with all of the evidence that he got from Eugene Greenhilt, it might have been enough for them to realize that the Gates were under direct attack from an outside source.

Which should have been more than enough to get them off their duffs.

[thepsyker]

I wasn't saying Tsukiko's actions were a protest of any sort; I was refering to how she appears to have been locked up for seeing Undead as equal to living beings (regarding the bit about her grave robbing, it wouldn't bother me that much if it was happening to relatives; I tend to just see corpses as nothing more then lifeless collections of organic materials). As far as Tsukiko went, I saw that comic, as well as the others from around that time, as suggesting she sees undead as children in a lot of cases (I took the comic where she met Xykon to be evidence that she is a necrophile, though).Really, a necrophilliac necromancer says that they were locked up for thinking that "a pulse is not a prerequisite for being loved" and your assumption for why she was locked up was that she supports equal rights for the Undead? Not the more obvious notion that she was arrested for giving some "love" to some corpses she raised leading to some people being upset about her raising and doing "stuff" with their dead relatives? And even if we assume that you are correct and their wasn't any necrophilia involved you still have the issue of how exactly she is acquiring the bodies she is raising and the fact that the relatives of those who's bodies she raised might have taken issue with the resurrections. All in all I think both of those are far more likely reasons for her jailing then it being a result of her supporting equal rights for the Undead.




Now I fully agree that it's a big if. But what Shojo could have said is, "Look, once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern. There's only three gates left now. Maybe we better starting pooling our resources, or you know... all hang seperately"

The Sapphire Guard, with one unfortunate exception (:smallwink:), isn't stupid. It's very possible they could have seen the wisdom of Lord Shojo's arguments. At the very least they could have allowed the hiring of an Outside Contractor to look into things.

Like say a certain Order that Lord Shojo just found out about. :smallyuk:Don't the Paladin's have an oath to obey the ruler of the city? If so could it not be that knowing that Paladin's take oaths an such seriously Shojo decided to handle the problem on his own so that they would not be stuck with trying to reconcile to conflicting oaths, the one to not interfere with other gates and the one to obey the cities ruler. After all he never swore not to interfere. Further, why should he have cleared it with them before seeking outside help?

[armourer eric]

I want to partition my world's hell based on sections of metro Detriot:

Belkar would be Woodward and Mack

V would be Gratiot near the city limits

Roy would be at 696 and Mound

[archon_huskie]

Miko and apologies do not go together, at all.

So an afterlife where she must travel the upper planes apologizing for her wrongs would be Hell for her? Clearly this is the best option.

[thepsyker]

I want to partition my world's hell based on sections of metro Detriot:
Wait, Detroit isn't already your/our worlds hell?:smallconfused:


Oh, no right that New Jersey, Detroit's our world's Abyss. I always get those confused.:smalltongue:

[David Argall]

I gotta say David, it's ironic that you have less faith in the SG to Do The Right Thing than I do.
My characters are almost entirely CG. I have very little faith in the ability of the LG to do the right thing. To want to yes, but they simply have very defective ideas about what that is.


BTW: Any comment about Rich's take on Lawful Good and changing the law?

Can't recall his comments at the moment, but the concept of changing the law is obviously abhorrent to any lawful.


If Shojo had come to them with all of the evidence that he got from Eugene Greenhilt, it might have been enough for them to realize that the Gates were under direct attack from an outside source.

Which should have been more than enough to get them off their duffs.
But what do we have to back up this hope?
Shojo says they would not accept the idea.
When Hinjo finds out about the deception, he immediately removes Shojo from office. He assumes that Shojo will be spending the rest of his life in jail, and Shojo likely agrees.
W&XP Soon also seems to object to the idea.
Just where do we have evidence they would be "reasonable"?

[Snake-Aes]

Was Charisma her dump stat? Was she a paladin stereotype? Yes, but with people like Belkar and Vaarsuvius on the team, she wasn't the only one lacking in people skills, and those two are liked well enough.Just wanted to note that high charisma doesn't mean you get to be liked. It means you get to be noticed.

[Tempest Fennac]

That would make things awkward, thepsyker. You're probably right about people being upset about Miko's actions (unless the soldiers thought they would be raised as sentinet undead under the control of RC's army when Elan gave that speech, the reaction would suggest a cultural phobia of anything to do with undead, or it could just mean they didn't like the idea of being used by an enemy).

If Soon did have issues with the idea, then going behind the Paladin's back to hire the Order would have been fine in my view. I still think sending someone with Teleport rather then someone with no social skills would have been better, though.

Just thinking about Miko's egocentricism regarding her views on her roll as a Paladin; considering how she was upset at the time, combined with not really having antything else, it could be argued that her views were based on the fact that all she really had was being able to call herself a Paladin thanks to her childhood mostly consisting of being raised by people who complain about there being escalators on the side of Mount Celestia.

[Porthos]

My characters are almost entirely CG.

Wow.

Learn something new every day. :smallsmile:


but they simply have very defective ideas about what that is.

Only the Lawful Stupid ones. But that's neither here nor there.


Can't recall his comments at the moment,

I posted it up thread, but here it is again:


An important note, though: While Shojo is portrayed sympathetically in the strip, his final fate is directly a result of his own scheming backfiring. No one held a wand to his head and forced him to deceive the Sapphire Guard; like Miko he considered himself above the law. Anger on the part of the paladins was a forceable consequence of his actions. As Celia said in her closing arguments back at the trial, part of being Lawful Good is knowing when to change the law. Shojo could have come to the paladins when Dorukan's Gate was destroyed and asked them to terminate Soon's Oath to not interfere, but he didn't. He went behind their backs and hired the Order. And died as a result.


but the concept of changing the law is obviously abhorrent to any lawful.

Whhhaaaattt? :smallconfused:

*stunned silence*

Let me repeat myself: Whhhhhhaaaaaat??

What on earth would ever give you an idea like that, David? :smallconfused: The whole purpose of having a systematic lawful framework is so that one has an agreed upon system to change things when the occasion warrants. Whether it be a body of legislature (Congress/Parliament), a Council of Elders, or even just The Few High Ranking Mucky-Mucks. Lawful = Order (usually) when it comes right down to it. And having an orderly system, or even mind set, to change things when the occassion warrants is inherently lawful.

To deny change when it is needed isn't Lawful behavior. It's IDIOTIC behavior. There are sometimes situations that couldn't have been dreamt up before. Or situations change.

To never change the law is to deny reality itself.

Now I agree that lawful people wouldn't want to change things willy nilly on the drop of a hat. But if given a damn good reason, why wouldn't they change things?

Surely I'm misreading you here, yes?


But what do we have to back up this hope?
Shojo says they would not accept the idea.

That's because Shojo has a dim view of paladins when it comes to rigid behavior. Some might call it a stereotypical CG view of LG even. :smallwink:


When Hinjo finds out about the deception, he immediately removes Shojo from office.

Again, why?

Let's say that Shojo breaks his act, but before doing so he makes Hinjo swear to let him say his piece for a full undivided 10 minutes. Hinjo, being a reasonable person, does so.

Shojo then drops the act and explains everything about why he did so. Hinjo of course gets angry, but lets his uncle finish the story (he gave his word after all). He then explains that he has learned that a lich named Xykon is trying to gain control of the Gates.***** Basically he downloads all of the information that was given to him by Eugene Greenhilt and surmises that if Xykon has tried to gain control of one gate, then it's very possible that he will try to control another.

This should give Hinjo enough pause not to throw away the key immediately. Now Shojo is nothing if not a Fast Talker. He should be able to implore on Hinjo to at least investigate this Xykon person just in case he's going to threaten other gates.

Now Hinjo is not stupid. He should see the wisdom in investigating this threat. And once they do and once they find out that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is mixed up with all of this, then all Hell is going to break loose.

Whether or not Shojo is imprisoned, temporarily removed from office pending an investigation (which will at least partially exonerate him), or if he gets off scot free is totally irrelevant. If he has to give up his rule to ensure that the Sapphire Guard will take this whole business seriously... Well to quote a certain TV show: That's why they call it "sacrifice".

Soon was more sure of his ability to be a manipulator than he was sure of paladins upholding Good. That, as they say, is a character flaw. And one that turned out to be Fatal.



Soon also seems to object to the idea.

Technically it's Eugene's presence that is upsetting Soon. Whether that's because having a Permanent Ghostly Guest is upsetting the magics that hold the Ghost-Martyrs spell, or if it is because he doesn't like someone masquerading as a being of Pure Law and Good, or if it's because he finds Eugene's personality grating is complete speculation right now. :smalltongue:

We simply don't know what was upsetting about Eugene's presence. I'm just going to presume that the simple fact that he was there was enough and not try to suss out anything more. Simply because we have no evidence one way or another to really guess why.

Anyway, we have seen from people like Hinjo and O-Chul that at least some Sapphire Guardsmen aren't the typical "Lawful Stupid" paladins. IF they were given enough evidence that the gates were under attack, I see no reason why they wouldn't investigate the other gates.

Just where do we have evidence they would be "reasonable"?

*** EDIT: Re-reading 290-294, it's unclear when Shojo found out about Xykon. I can't be quite sure if Eugene told him about the lich or not (what does "consulting" mean, anyway). So that bit might be up in the air.

Still there should be enough evidence between what Eugene told Shojo and what happen at Lirian's Gate for Shojo to get the ball rolling. It's a chance, yes. But one that has a pretty high certanity of paying off. And, at the very least, he could have gotten ahold of the Order without bringing in the SG. Then, once he finds out about Xykon (as he will through the Order) then he can go to the SG with his vaunted "concrete information".

Bottom Line: He didn't trust the Sapphire Guard.

SECOND EDIT:

See my post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6552375&postcount=98) made down-thread as I came up with a way out for my objection I made in my first edit. :smallsmile:

[Tempest Fennac]

When Hinjo was refering to Shojo breaking laws, was he refering to hiring the Order or letting Belkar out of gaol? I assumed it was more to do with Belkar then the Oath.

[Kish]

After all he never swore not to interfere.
This idea gets brought up a lot.

Shojo says quite clearly in #290 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) that he swore the same oath as the Sapphire Guard's paladins. He just doesn't feel any obligation to keep his oath. Everyone please retire the idea that Shojo never took the oath. :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

When Hinjo was refering to Shojo breaking laws, was he refering to hiring the Order or letting Belkar out of gaol? I assumed it was more to do with Belkar then the Oath.

Reading this strip I'm pretty sure it's about the Gates and the Oath. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)

It's the only thing that really makes sense given 405.

[hamishspence]

Not only is it not "abhorrent" its standard operating procedure for paladins of Tyr (God of Law and Justice), and Exalted Lawful Good characters, when the law is flawed.

Lawful characters know the law is a creation of flawed mortals-they just prefer to change it peacefully when it perpetrates injustices, rather than overthrow the whole system.

[Porthos]

After a bit of a think I came to an conclusion. The fact of the matter is that at some point before finding out that Xykon was marching on the city, Lord Shojo WAS aware of a concrete threat. After the trial, he had more than enough information to head to the Sapphire Guard and say "Now this might seem strange that I'm talking to you all without Mr. Scruffy but...."

He has his vaunted Concrete Information as soon as Eugene starts blabbing to Roy about everything. Would it look bad that he would have to admit a sham of a trial to the SG?

Yes.

Would it look bad that he would have to admit pulling the wool over all their eyes all this time?

Yes.

But it's a small price to pay when the existance of the very world is at stake.

But, again, he was more comfortable with lying than with being the head of the Sapphire Guard. And that cost him his life.

Still doesn't excuse Miko from wigging out, of course. But it does show that Shojo ain't blameless, as I said before.

Heck, he might have even come up with some sort of plan that involved the Order somehow finding out that Xykon was still alive and thus an imminent threat. He's a good liar after all. Vision from the 12 Gods. A sudden visit from a ghostly relative (which is oddly enuf what happened). Shojo could have figured something out.

But he didn't even try.

[thepsyker]

That would make things awkward, thepsyker. You're probably right about people being upset about Miko's actions (unless the soldiers thought they would be raised as sentinet undead under the control of RC's army when Elan gave that speech, the reaction would suggest a cultural phobia of anything to do with undead, or it could just mean they didn't like the idea of being used by an enemy).
I assume you meant Tsukiko or I have really lost the thread of this conversation.:smallwink::smalltongue:

This idea gets brought up a lot.

Shojo says quite clearly in #290 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) that he swore the same oath as the Sapphire Guard's paladins. He just doesn't feel any obligation to keep his oath. Everyone please retire the idea that Shojo never took the oath. :smalltongue:Hmm, must have missed/ forgotten that, alright I guess I stand corrected.

[Galderon]

You're an atheist? More power to ya, buddy! It's hard to be, what with all the Mormons in my neighborhood, and all my relatives are catholic or protestant, so discussing a giant in the clouds who had a kid made of bread and wine is awkward.

But anyway,

Miko, would go chaotic good afterlife
Therkla Lawful Evil or a neutral of some sorts

[Tempest Fennac]

Sorry, thepsyker (I meant Miko). I was thinking about Rich's comment about Miko thinking she was above the law; would that suggest her actions were chaotic rather then evil? If it does, Elysium could be a good place for her considering how she seems to get on better with animals then humanoids.

[thepsyker]

Sorry, thepsyker (I meant Miko). I was thinking about Rich's comment about Miko thinking she was above the law; would that suggest her actions were chaotic rather then evil? If it does, Elysium could be a good place for her considering how she seems to get on better with animals then humanoids.Then I must have lost the thread of the conversation as I'm kind of confused what you were saying I was right about, I don't remember commenting on Miko's actions recently. Unless, now that I think about your comment in that context, your referring to my comment at the beginning of the thread that some of the other LG would would be upset if Miko got into the LG afterlife? But that doesn't seem to fit the comment on how the soldiers would feel about being raised so...:smallconfused:

In regards to her actions being chaotic with her thinking she is above the law I agree that thats probably a part of it. When you think about it Shojo's crime is, in part, acting outside the law because he feels that it would hinder achieving a greater good, but she herself decides to do the same thing in killing him herself because she doesn't trust the courts. Its kind of ironic, in my opinion at least.

[Porthos]

I was thinking about Rich's comment about Miko thinking she was above the law; would that suggest her actions were chaotic rather then evil?

Well in regards to Miko's actions in 406-409, I've always said that it's quite hard to pin down a consistent alignment (in regards to L/N/C at least) on someone who's in the middle (or even beginnings) of a psychotic break. Though the slicing Shojo in half is evil no matter, and please pardon the pun, how you cut it. :smalltongue:

Thus I might be temtped to not quite use those actions in her little "episode" when it comes to determing a Lawful/Chaotic alignment.

But, yes, someone who suddenly screams "The laws have no meaning" could be consdered as... shall we say, re-examing her dominant philosophical outlook. :smalltongue:

I would tend to look at her actions after her break to see if she remained Lawful or not. I would say, "yes", since she didn't seem to be acting in a random/ spur of the moment fashion. But I can see how others would disagree.

[Tempest Fennac]

thepsyker, I was appologising for calling Tsukiko Miko by mistake. The rest of that post was to do with the War and Exps. comment. I still don't class Miko killing Shojo as evil due to how he would have been a threat is he was still alive, if he was working for Xykon (it's just unfortunate that he wasn't working for Xykon dispite the things Miko knew suggesting he was). As far as the comment about the laws not having a meaning went, she would have had a point if they were made by someone who was plotting against the city.

[Porthos]

I still don't class Miko killing Shojo as evil due to how he would have been a threat is he was still alive, if he was working for Xykon (it's just unfortunate that he wasn't working for Xykon dispite the things Miko knew suggesting he was).

Sadly for Miko, just because she thought she was Striking Down An Evil Tyrant, it doesn't actually give her a Get Out of Committing An Evil Act Free Card when she mistakenly kills a good man. :smallwink:

Intent Matters. So to does Actions. In some cases, something is an Evil Act, no matter what your intentions are.

And that's not even going into Psychoanalysis of Miko here. Did she lash out because she thought Shojo was evil? Or did she lash out because her Father Figure betrayed her in the most personal way possible (to the point of, as I mentioned earlier, possibly causing a psychotic break). If so, then this becomes a Revenge (amongst other things) driven killing. A Crime of Passion if you will.

Which is a lot more problematic, alignment wise. As a certain elf recently demonstrated. :smallwink:

[Tempest Fennac]

I guess it could have been a combination of wanting revenge and wanting to protect the city based on Miko's coments before she killed him.

[Porthos]

I guess it could have been a combination of wanting revenge and wanting to protect the city based on Miko's coments before she killed him.

Here's the thing. Hinjo is there, narratively speaking, for a Very Good Reason. It's to show how a paladin is supposed to do things versus someone who, well, isn't.

Hinjo, who has even more of a reason to feel betrayed by Shojo, not only doesn't wig out, he tries to stop Miko from what she is doing. He is the one who tries to talk sense into Miko (before and after the attack). And fails utterly.

Think of Hinjo as the "control group" here, if you will.

Or as he put it in 409 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html), "I managed to restrain myself from executing my liege". :smalltongue:

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought Hinjo was bias in favour of keeping Shojo alive due to them being related (admittedly, I was never a Hinjo fan due to him being put in charge solely because of him being related to Shojo dispite not appearing to have much competance as far as leading goes).

[thepsyker]

thepsyker, I was appologising for calling Tsukiko Miko by mistake. The rest of that post was to do with the War and Exps. comment. I still don't class Miko killing Shojo as evil due to how he would have been a threat is he was still alive, if he was working for Xykon (it's just unfortunate that he wasn't working for Xykon dispite the things Miko knew suggesting he was). As far as the comment about the laws not having a meaning went, she would have had a point if they were made by someone who was plotting against the city.Oh, alright I was just lost there for a moment. As for Miko I was mainly noting the similarity of the reasoning behind both her and Shojo's actions, they both acted outside the law because they felt it would hinder them in doing What Needed to Be Done.


(admittedly, I was never a Hinjo fan due to him being put in charge solely because of him being related to Shojo dispite not appearing to have much competance as far as leading goes).See, I think that is a bit of an unfair criticism as it seems to be judging the culture for not living up to real world democratic ideals that don't necessarily exist in the setting.

[Porthos]

I thought Hinjo was bias in favour of keeping Shojo alive due to them being related (admittedly, I was never a Hinjo fan due to him being put in charge solely because of him being related to Shojo dispite not appearing to have much competance as far as leading goes).

Well, that's Royalty for ya. :smalltongue:

As for his competency, I think he did alright considering he had zero time to plan the defense of the city. Plus the added complication of the chaos surrounding his uncles death.

While we haven't seen much of him in the latest arc, it certainly appears (at least to me) that Hinjo has learned a thing or three about leading. He stands up to the nobles and Elan. And makes the hard decision to actually look for a place to settle down (no matter how much he may wish not to).

Say what you will about his impulsiveness by the Azure City Docks. But he's grown a lot since then.

At least in this baised posters opinion. :smallwink:

[LuisDantas]

Shojo is hardly blameless in regards to his own death, or even about Azure City's fall. As others noted, he could have attempted many things to deal with the restraints of the Oath, but he was too fond of lying and manipulating others. That eventually came back to bit him.

As for Miko, her faithfullness to Law and Good, never particularly strong to begin with, were completely destroyed the moment she felt betrayed by Shojo. All her moments after that are utterly and shamelessly self-serving, with quite a few claims that she was the wisest, purest, noblest and more god-favored of all people.

Classic Messiah Complex for ya. Sure, she claimed to be enforcing the Law for Good causes. But that was simple and transparent self-delusion.

[silvadel]

Wait, Detroit isn't already your/our worlds hell?:smallconfused:


Oh, no right that New Jersey, Detroit's our world's Abyss. I always get those confused.:smalltongue:

Actually we only have the ENTRANCE in NJ -- Futurama reference...

[David Argall]

What on earth would ever give you an idea like that?


From the very concept of Law for starters. Fixed, certain, absolute, not changing.
The lawful does not want to change the law, and when it is changed, he prefers to pretend the earlier law was never law in the first place.

[QUOTE=Porthos;6552178]The whole purpose of having a systematic lawful framework is so that one has an agreed upon system to change things when the occasion warrants.

Nope. It's there to enforce the law, not to change it.



having an orderly system, or even mind set, to change things when the occassion warrants is inherently lawful.
But the very idea of lawful is that it is rarely, if ever, a situation where it is warranted. Recall 490. They go by the book, which is 100 ft tall and alight with holy fire. The idea of changing those rules is just not on the table.


To deny change when it is needed isn't Lawful behavior. It's IDIOTIC behavior.
It's both.



To never change the law is to deny reality itself.
So just who said Lawfuls are realistic?


Now I agree that lawful people wouldn't want to change things willy nilly on the drop of a hat. But if given a damn good reason, why wouldn't they change things?
Because change is chaotic. It upsets things. It is different... It is just not a part of the lawful outlook.



That's because Shojo has a dim view of paladins when it comes to rigid behavior. Some might call it a stereotypical CG view of LG even.
Others call it accurate.



Let's say that Shojo breaks his act, but before doing so he makes Hinjo swear to let him say his piece for a full undivided 10 minutes. Hinjo, being a reasonable person,
Just where do we see that? All we see of Hinjo marks him as inexperienced, naive, idealistic, totally unable to be as flexible as you want him to be.



Technically it's Eugene's presence that is upsetting Soon.

W&XP unimportant here. What we have is that Soon is able to communicate with Shojo, and knows what is going on in the throne room. Shojo is thus highly likely to know exactly what Soon thinks of his plan, and that is highly likely to be negative. We thus gain more confidence in thinking that the paladins would reject Shojo's idea out of hand.


Anyway, we have seen from people like Hinjo and O-Chul that at least some Sapphire Guardsmen aren't the typical "Lawful Stupid" paladins. IF they were given enough evidence that the gates were under attack, I see no reason why they wouldn't investigate the other gates.
Where do you see such flexibility? O-Chul has been shown as really able to take damage, and be noble. He is not shown as flexible. 404 & 405 in fact show him as the opposite.

I'll repeat, Just where do we have evidence they would be "reasonable"?




When Hinjo was refering to Shojo breaking laws, was he refering to hiring the Order or letting Belkar out of gaol? I assumed it was more to do with Belkar then the Oath.
The Oath definitely. Belkar's presence was not a good sign, but there are a half-dozen reasons that might explain his presence. Maybe he is doing a plea bargain or something. All very suspicious, but there is nothing that says absolutely guilty. Hinjo doesn't even mention Belkar.
It is his violations of his oath and his years of lies that upset Hinjo.



Not only is it not "abhorrent" its standard operating procedure for paladins of Tyr (God of Law and Justice), and Exalted Lawful Good characters, when the law is flawed.
And the presumption of any lawful is that the law is not flawed. One must show by overwhelming proof that the mortal law is flawed before the lawful can justify changing it.


Lawful characters know the law is a creation of flawed mortals-
Now lawfuls will distinguish between the law-created by mortals- and the LAW-which simply exists. But the law is supposed to be a copy of the LAW and changing it is not on the table. One is merely getting the law closer to the LAW.

[Porthos]

From the very concept of Law for starters.

*snipped everything else*

David I literally have zero idea where you got those ideas about Law in regards to DnD. It is in no sourcebook that I am aware of. In fact, it the precise opposite is mentioned in several sourcebooks.

I get the idea that you and I have zero common ground here when it comes to the discussion of what Lawful behavior is (I notice that you mention nothing about Rich's comments, for instance). And so to spare this board a 15 page back and forth, I will simply say that I utterly disagree with everything you are saying and leave it at that. :smallsmile: If anyone else wants to take up the baton, feel free. But I'm sitting this one out.

As for O-Chul, the fact that he took time to befriend the MitD speaks volumes as toward his non-sterotypical view of things as far as I am concerned. Compare his reaction to Miko's for instance. And the fact that Hinjo is accepting responsibility instead of indulging in his desires (take back Azure City at all costs) show that he is growing as well.

Also consider O-Chul's reaction to Belkar versus Miko's. Both made it clear that they wouldn't put up with shenanigans from him, but O-Chul's was far more pragmatic. There are other examples, but those are the ones that immediately come to mind.

[dps]

David I literally have zero idea where you got those ideas about Law in regards to DnD. It is in no sourcebook that I am aware of. In fact, it the precise opposite is mentioned in several sourcebooks.

I think that the source of a lot of misconceptions like this is the use of the terms "law" and "lawful" in reference to alignment. It would probably be better if the them "order" was used instead. The term "lawful" causes people to get hung up on formal written laws and codes, and that's not really what the alignment is about.

[Serebii]

Guwaah... Whenever David Argall and Optymistik get involved I get confuzzled...
More importantly, I've always viewed that if Miko realized her wrongdoings and opted for redemption, she would get an opportunity. She could go to celestia, she'd just have to think for a second. Luckily, she's got all eternity.

*A side note: I'm agnostic. This is all just how I'd handle this if it came up in one of my D&D games.:smallannoyed: