Did V's prophecy happon on 634?

[The Gray Fox]

ok this has been bothering me for awhile on comic 331 the oracle says (to v askig how will i achieve complete and total arcane power) "by saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons" and on 634 v says 4 word and it it the right time (the feinds were counting) and i supose the are (kinda) the right beings and it was for all of the wrong reasons... But it wasnt total arcane power for that he would be able to keep it besides some one with complete and total arcane power wouldnt have a time limt on it because its complete and total arcane power!
sorry if i am not being to clear hopefully some ond will get it.....

[Optimystik]

To summarize several 30 page threads:

It was Ultimate Arcane Power, but he was mistaken in thinking that was all he needed to win. Having the world's most powerful gun doesn't mean much if you shoot yourself in the foot with it.

[Porthos]

Yeah.

You know, at this point even I am starting to run out of snarky comments to say here. :smallsigh:

So I will instead say:

A) Welcome to the boards

and

B) This has been debated and debated and debated and....

Well, you get the idea. We're so far gone from stripping the flesh off of the dead horse we're now working on putting the bone marrow into tasty stew. :smalltongue:

I'm quite sure that people will come along and explain (and explain and explain and...) in great detail everything pro and con about the Four Word fiasco.

But me? Nah, I think I'm done with it for a while.

Again, thou, welcome to the forums. :smallcool:

[Darius1020]

It's generally assumed that it was (and I think rich intends for it to be, (seriously, giving a character ultimate arcane power twice? How very original...)), though alot of people still argue that he didn't say it to the right person (which is believed to be himself), or say four words (repetition of "I"), or the wrong reasons (not actually sure if I've heard this one, but I'd guess it'd go that he was saving his family.

(Anyway, in posting this longish message, it's almost been assured that I'm gonna get ninja'd)

[Conuly]

Well, if you look in the archives, you can see that the title of 634 is "The Wrong Reasons".

So either yes, that's when the prophecy came true or V has a lot of prophecies stacked up.

[Aris Katsaris]

To summarize: People disagree. But most people here think it was the fulfillment of the prophecy.

[theinsulabot]

my, haven't we danced this waltz before?

[Thanatosia]

This is a very hotly debated topic. I'm of the opinion that the Prophecy was not fulfilled and 634 was a red herring. If we reach the end of the strip and 634 was the fulfillment tho, my position is that the oracle miffed the prediction.

[Acero]

To summarize several 30 page threads:

It was Ultimate Arcane Power, but he was mistaken in thinking that was all he needed to win. Having the world's most powerful gun doesn't mean much if you shoot yourself in the foot with it.

it does. it means you got one less bullet and your foot is bleeding.
V did alot that moved the storyline.

He........

cut off the "find a home for azurites" path
saved o-chul
killed all the black dragons
lost Xykon's amulet. (i see the OotS searching for it in the end)

[Skorj]

To summarize several 30 page threads:

It was Ultimate Arcane Power, but he was mistaken in thinking that was all he needed to win. Having the world's most powerful gun doesn't mean much if you shoot yourself in the foot with it.
Aw, man, only a week since the last "four words" thread. :smallannoyed: Optimystik summarized it well, but I'd add the Aesop: working with friends (or at least allies) turns out to be better than Ultimate Arcane Power, demonstrating that V's life had been overfocused long before she stopped trancing.

[Smiling Knight]

There seriously needs to be a sticky about all the discussed-to-death topics. :smallsigh:

[Shpadoinkle]

Try reading any one of the billion other 90+ page threads discussing this exact issue.

[Kroy]

it does. it means you got one less bullet and your foot is bleeding.
V did alot that moved the storyline.

He........

cut off the "find a home for azurites" path
saved o-chul
killed all the black dragons
lost Xykon's amulet. (i see the OotS searching for it in the end)

Technically only 1/4 of black dragons

[Porthos]

To save everybody a few 1's and 0's here are the pro/con arguments condensed in a nutshell: :smallsmile:

Not The Four Words
V never showed anything close to what I think Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power should be.
A time-limited CaTUAP isn't any real CaTUAP.
His motivations were to save his family, and thus not for "all the wrong reasons".
He said Three Words, not Four.
He said them to three beings, not one.
There was no relationship between any of V's supposed Four Words and receiving the so-called power.
If he really had CaTUAP he would have mopped up the floor with Xykon.
V will use this experience (either positively or negatively) to go for real CaTUAP some point down the line.
V will use this experience to use real CaTUAP more effectively next time around.
This whole arc was a deliberate red herring designed to make us think that V had achieved CaTUAP, thus surprising us as readers when it really happens.
People who claim to understand V's motivations as negative in this arc are just projecting things onto the character.

Was The Four Words
He had Complete and Total Arcane Power as things that he could not cast, he could now, thanks to the Soul Splice, (plus he could cast them spontaneously). And he had the most Ultimate raw arcane power of any mortal ever.
"I... I must succeed" are Four Words.
While he claimed he was doing this for altruistic reasons, under pressure from the IFCC it seems that he really is doing this out of Pride (Magic must solve all problems) or other unsavory motivations (Fear of Failure, et etc).
He was talking himself into making the deal thus in a twist making V himself the Right Being.
Just because you have CaTUAP, doesn't mean you'll use it effectively.
The title of the strip was called The Wrong Reasons.
The IFCC mentions feelings of omnipotence.
V has already had an "Achieved A Metric Ass Ton of Power" Arc. It makes little sense, narratively speaking, for him to do so again.
Having V continue to quest after CaTUAP would render all of the character development/moral-of-the-story that we just had completely meaningless.

Now there are minor variations of a theme (V got CaTUAP, but the Four Words were sometime earlier [with "Disintergrate. Gust of Wind." being the most popular alternative]), but those are the highlights of the argument. Everything else is just rebuttals of the arguments and rebuttals of the rebuttals. Some of which are already alluded to in the above lists. And, obviously, some people will only use some of the arguments from each list. But I was trying to put all of the pro/con arguments in one list, irrespective of any single poster believing in all of them.

I tried to accurately portray each sides arguments as even-handed as possible. Hopefully I succeeded. :smallwink:

[Skorj]

There seriously needs to be a sticky about all the discussed-to-death topics. :smallsigh:

There seriously is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6496). :smalltongue: It hasn't been updated in a while though.

[JT Jag]

I can't shake the feeling that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." is the real four words. They set off a chain of events that led to V's isolation, which led to Quarr seeing an opportunity, which led to the Faustian bargain.

[Thanatosia]

Not The Four Words
V never showed anything close to what I think Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power should be.
A time-limited CaTUAP isn't any real CaTUAP.
His motivations were to save his family, and thus not for "all the wrong reasons".
He said Three Words, not Four.
He said them to three beings, not one.
If he really had CaTUAP he would have mopped up the floor with Xykon.
V will use this experience (either positively or negatively) to go for real CaTUAP some point down the line.
V will use this experience to use real CaTUAP more effectively next time around.
This whole arc was a deliberate red herring designed to make us think that V had achieved CaTUAP, thus surprising us as readers when it really happens.
People who claim to understand V's motivations as negative in this arc are just projecting things onto the character.

You are missing from your list what I think is the strongest argument against it being the four words. The Four words were the Oracles answer to the question "How will I gain the TUAP?", the 4 words he spoke in #634 where just incidental and had no cause-effect relationship with the TUAP, thus cannot be considered a valid answer to a 'how' question.

The Red-Blue orbs lends credence to a Red-herring interpretation IMO as their pressence seems very contrived for the specific purpose of preventing any words spoken from being viewed as an acceptance of the fiends offer and thus having a causal relationship with the gain of power through the soul-splice.

[Porthos]

the 4 words he spoke in #634 where just incidental and had no cause-effect relationship with the TUAP, thus cannot be considered a valid answer to a 'how' question.

Unless one buys the "He was talking himself into making the deal" argument. :smallwink:

But you're right. That was one of the major arguments made against this being CaTUAP, so I should edit it in. I probably just forgot about that reason since it's so late here on the Left Coast.

*hang a mo*

*edits*

And it's in.

One wants to be precise after all. :smallsmile:

[sam79]

The Red-Blue orbs lends credence to a Red-herring interpretation IMO as their pressence seems very contrived for the specific purpose of preventing any words spoken from being viewed as an acceptance of the fiends offer and thus having a causal relationship with the gain of power through the soul-splice.


This is evidence for your view, but, IMO, not strong evidence.
Surely that was just a cheap Matrix joke? I believe one of the fiends points that out, in fact. Ok, so that might make it an even more effective red herring, but it seems that this is a rather forced argument that relies on a certain amount of special pleading.

By the way, that is an awesome summary Porthos. I wasn't on the board when these strips were first up, so I missed the debate. I'm rather surprised the debate was a big one, as it seems pretty clear what the arc is to me.

But then it is pretty clear to me that Miko is a character who should elicit some degree of sympathy from the audience, so what do I know? :smallwink: [cast Protection from Flames and puts on tin hat].

[Porthos]

some degree of sympathy from the audience, so what do I know? :smallwink: [cast Protection from Flames and puts on tin hat].

Some sympathy? Sure I can buy that.

Not sure I'd go much beyond that tho*. :smalltongue:

Thanks for the props, BTW. :smallsmile:

* I've always viewed her as a Tragic character (in the Greek sense), BTW

[Thanatosia]

Surely that was just a cheap Matrix joke? I believe one of the fiends points that out, in fact.
I'd be far far far more likey to just accept the Red-Blue orbs as nothing but a cheap Matrix joke if the Matrix or one of his sequels had just came out or was released or rereleased or in any way particularly prominent in popular culture at the time of the comic, but I do not recall that being the case. A totally random callback to a movie many years old in a way that directly puts a rather significant plot point into doubt just does not sit with me right.

The Giant could have easily made the 4 words an acceptance of the fiends offer given to a specific singular fiend (the right being) thus making the prophecy fulfilment a slam-dunk, I can't believe he was ignorant to the fact that the orbs tossed in as a 'joke' puts the whole thing in doubt, and I suspect the doubt was intentional.

[Jaltum]

Deliberate ambiguity? Around V? Surely not.

[sam79]

I'd be far far far more likey to just accept the Red-Blue orbs as nothing but a cheap Matrix joke if the Matrix or one of his sequels had just came out or was released or rereleased or in any way particularly prominent in popular culture at the time of the comic, but I do not recall that being the case.

True, but it is a fairly iconic movie, and a reference that everyone would get, and relevant in the sense that it is a way to easily visualize a momentous decision. Many of the pop-culture references in the strip are up-to-the-minute topical; the reference to Captain America in Roy's Back to Life scene is a recent example that springs to mind. But many are much less so. These are often related to well-known and popular things, even if there is nothing topical going on with that franchise when the strip was published (there are quite a few to Star Wars for instance; again, one fairly recent one that springs to mind is Haley's reference to 'Darth Vaarsuvius'). I'm inclined to think the coloured orbs thing was in the second category.


The Giant could have easily made the 4 words an acceptance of the fiends offer given to a specific singular fiend (the right being) thus making the prophecy fulfilment a slam-dunk, I can't believe he was ignorant to the fact that the orbs tossed in as a 'joke' puts the whole thing in doubt, and I suspect the doubt was intentional.

Perhaps it does add an element of ambiguity for some people; but until I read the message board, I didn't realize there was anything to cause controversy in that strip. The title is pretty clear, as is the shape of the story. Her recent arc has been fairly long, has involved some pretty detailed plotting, and is (IMO) a really fantastic bit of story-telling; she alienates her friends, she 'falls' to the Dark Side, and she begins to claw her way back, and learns a lot about herself in the process. All this good story stuff, not to mention the introduction of the fiends and their angle, for a prophesy fulfilment red herring? I doubt it.

As with the other OotS prophesies (and as with all prophesies made in good stories anywhere to anyone) there is always an element of ambiguity and unexpectedness. We read Durkon's prophesy and feel sad; but his reaction takes us (or at least me!) by surprise. We see the fulfilment of Belkar's prophesy, but see that the Oracle is, hilariously, one step ahead once again. And V gets what she wishes for, but in the end realizes that it was not the ultimate answer that she thought it would be.

[[TS] Shadow]

I hate to bring this up (agian) but "disintergrate gust of wind" can't be the four words, seeing how he only said one (disintergrate) to Kubota and "gust of wind" would have had to be said to a different being (V/Elan,) contraticting the prophecy (which says one being, singular.)

[Kilremgor]

Word-by-word prophecy analysis (IMO):

Part of prophecy / degree of applicability

By - 0%: 'How... By' implies a direct cause-effect relationship, which, in that case, would've been 'by touching the right orb' (100% applicable) -> gain CaTUAP. Saying any words wasn't related directly to getting it, and as Belkar's scene confirms, convoluted 'you caused Roy's death by giving him Ring of Jumping' theories do not work, so neither should this one.

saying the right four words - 60%: this part is not 100% applicable because there are at least two problems. First, those words could not be considered 'right', as any convincing words would do, without some being right or wrong. Also, it could be argued that 3 words were enough in that case ('I' being repeated). The 90%-100% applicable would've been either by saying few convincing words or, 100% applicable, having fiends establish verbal contract acceptance and have V say something like I accept your contract.

to the right being - 80%: V being 'right being' is ok, giving that his acceptance of contract is required for obtaining CaTUAP. It could be argued, though, but this part is pretty much acceptable.

at the right time - 50%: the problem is, the words could be said before or later without really influencing the outcome; it's not like it was some 'moment of truth' when saying something right changes everything. At the time, it was quite clear that accepting CaTUAP was necessary, as the convoluted 'chop your head' plan did not make any sense and wasn't appealing to V. Leaving hir family to danger wasn't also an option.
If, for example, fiends made it that CaTUAP is activated at any time when V says some key phrase, he then went to try to fight ABD w/o CaTUAP (teleported there with help of fiends, for example) and hir would've said the key phrase right in the moment ABD was going to kill him/her (thus gaining CaTUAP and saving the day), it would've been truly 'right time'.

for all the wrong reasons - 80%: strip's title and 'pride, cannot accept that magic has failed' reasons are somewhat convincing... it could still be argued that at least one of the reasons ('saving the family') was not wrong (as the prophecy says 'reasons', implying all of them are wrong).

CaTUAP - 75%. It was looking like true CaTUAP, but still not definitely, given Xykon's speech and splice turning out to be quite weak mechanic when considered as 'complete and total ultimate' (w/o stacking of caster levels, saves, DCs, etc., a level 30-40 single-class primary spellcaster gets stronger than V).

Conclusion: IMO, prophecy was 57.5% applicable to what happened on 634. That means it was likely fulfilled, but still leaves a considerable chance it was not (or the prediction was miffed and not fully correct).

[sam79]

A really impressive analysis, coming to a pretty precise conclusion. It does make me a little less certain that the prophesy was fulfilled, though I still very much doubt that so many strips would be devoted to V's Faustian deal if it was not related to this prophesy; I agree with your overall conclusion that it is more likely than not that this scene fulfils the prophesy, and I'd ball-park it at something like 80-90%.

In relation to some specific points:


b]By[/b] - 0%: 'How... By' implies a direct cause-effect relationship, which, in that case, would've been 'by touching the right orb' (100% applicable) -> gain CaTUAP. Saying any words wasn't related directly to getting it, and as Belkar's scene confirms, convoluted 'you caused Roy's death by giving him Ring of Jumping' theories do not work, so neither should this one.

Well...I'd give a few percent here. The causal link in Haley's case was, arguably, somewhat tenuous; more so than hypothesizing that, for example, V saying the words "I...I must succeed" aloud was the moment she vocalized and clarified her intentions, and caused her to take the decision to reach out for the orb and accept the offer.



for all the wrong reasons - 80%: strip's title and 'pride, cannot accept that magic has failed' reasons are somewhat convincing... it could still be argued that at least one of the reasons ('saving the family') was not wrong (as the prophecy says 'reasons', implying all of them are wrong).

I think that is why the scene with her mate is so crucial in this; it is clear that, whatever her initial concerns, V wanted the power for its own sake; having saved her family, she didn't relinquish it. That is also why she refused the convoluted but definitely workable behead/teleport scheme.


CaTUAP - 75%. It was looking like true CaTUAP, but still not definitely, given Xykon's speech and splice turning out to be quite weak mechanic when considered as 'complete and total ultimate' (w/o stacking of caster levels, saves, DCs, etc., a level 30-40 single-class primary spellcaster gets stronger than V).

Xykon's "power = power" speech is interesting here, as he does say, effectively, "you never had the power, as it was so easy to lose". I'm not sure I agree with that position. We can get into semantics here, but having the power on a fragile basis is (IMO) having the power, but isn't having it properly as it was unearned (by, presumably, progressing up the levels in the usual way).

[Jaltum]

It was a nice try, anyway, Porthos.

[Andore Mordre]

The four words were "once held your den (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html)".

End of story.

:smallbiggrin:

[fangthane]

It was a nice try, anyway, Porthos.

At this point with amendments I'd say it's a pretty concise summary of the points made on either side; however as an effort to forstall further argument, it's probably pretty much futile. :smallbiggrin:

I pretty much have to go with "no matter how much merit I find in the 'not-the-4-words' arguments, I don't see Rich screwing us over with the title like that if they weren't the right ones."

I can see why a number of people think the fulfilment's a bit weak, in one or more ways, but I likewise think that the kind of ploy implied above would be weak, unimaginative and ultimately beneath our author's capabilities. That said, there's still the possibility I'm wrong, but it'll take some pretty impressive justification on Rich's part given that the comic titles do very much tend to be meaningful to the content of the strip.
"But seriously, she won't"
"Or mention that he's getting too old for this"
And the list goes on and on. Most of them are comical, but that doesn't mean the few that aren't should be considered any less appropriate to the comics they describe.

[sam79]

Fangthane; that's a name that rings some old and dusty bells in my mind! Am I right in thinking that it is the name of a gold-capped mountain and Dwarf stronghold in the world that the Fighting Fantasy series of gamebooks were set in?

Very wise post too, but the way!

[alpha_dk]

I pretty much have to go with "no matter how much merit I find in the 'not-the-4-words' arguments, I don't see Rich screwing us over with the title like that if they weren't the right ones."


To be fair,
1) Red Herrings are pretty much defined as the author screwing with the audience, and
2) The title was 'The wrong reasons', not 'All the wrong reasons', which both is separate from the prophecy and could (or, I would say, 'would') have been part of a calculated red herring.

[David Argall]

I can't shake the feeling that "Disintegrate. Gust of Wind." is the real four words. They set off a chain of events that led to V's isolation, which led to Quarr seeing an opportunity, which led to the Faustian bargain.

It wasn't four words.
It wasn't to a person.
It wasn't for the wrong reasons.
It didn't set off any chain of events.