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FMArthur
2009-07-20, 11:14 PM
I'm trying to build a character centred around TWFing with a hand crossbow, but I've hit a few roadblocks. This is what I've got so far:


28 point buy array: 10 Str, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha.
Race: Strongheart halfling (FRCS): normal halfling minus save bonuses and plus a bonus feat.
Template: Dark template (ToM): Hide in Plain Sight, +10ft movement, cold resist 10, darkvision, hide +8, move silently +6, Level Adjustment +1.
Adjusted ability scores: 8 Str, 20 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha
Flaws: Noncombatant (-2 melee), Poor Reflexes (-3 to Reflex)
Alternate Class Features / Variant Classes:
Fighter (DotUD): lose heavy armor prof; +2 on Initiative checks, add Dex to damage flat-footed enemies within 30ft.
Thug (UA): Trade all bonus feats to gain rogue's sneak attack ability.

Classes:
Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Thug 7 (Thug is a fighter variant from Unearthed Arcana)

Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
1 Two Weapon Fighting
1 Rapid Shot
2 Hand Crossbow Focus (DotUD) - gives rapid reload, weap focus
3 Craven - add character level to SA dmg, -2 to save against fear
6 Crossbow Sniper (PHBII) - 1/2 Dex to damage, 60ft sneak attack
9 Woodland Archer (RotW) - missing gives +4 to subsequent shots, move while sniping(PHB76), pierce concealment to ignore concealment for 1 round

Skill Tricks:
5 Easy Escape (CS87) [escape artist 8]: bonus to escape grapple/pin equal to target's size bonus
9 Quick Escape (CS89) [escape artist 12]: break grapple as swift action

Equipment (19lb Capacity!):
2 x Masterwork Darkwood Hand Crossbow (1lb): 410gp *2 = 820gp
1 Spare Hand (MIC 137, 5lb): 12000gp - waist slot, holds an item; transferring is free action
1 Mithral Chain Shirt (DMG 221, 10lb): 1100gp - +4 AC, Max dex of 6.
20 Crossbow bolts (2lb)


I will be playing this character from levels 3 to around 10, so advice requiring high levels or exorbitant sums of gold is 100% useless here. The campaign has not started yet so everything about this character except the core concept of TWFing crossbows is malleable. There is a houserule in place where TWF gives Improved and Greater TWF for free when you qualify.

These are my problems:

Problem #1: With a very short list of items, I have reached my carrying limit for a light load: 19lbs. Darkwood halves the weight of my hand crossbows, and a mithral shirt weights less than half of a chain shirt. I tried to find a material to reduce the weight of leather armor instead, hopefully sticking me with only 5lbs (following the pattern of mithral "halving" a chain shirt's weight from 25lbs to 10lbs) of armor, but couldn't. Gloves of Storing instead of a Spare Hand would cost me 20000gp, or 8000gp more for 5lbs of carrying capacity. A Quick Loading enhancement on my hand crossbows feels redundant given the feats I still need to take anyway, and it would cost 6000gp more in total. I would need to entrust my fellow party members with my gold and extra crossbow bolts at this rate.

Are there lighter materials I can make my armor out of? At a low cost? Are there any other ways I can cheaply reduce my weight or increase my carrying capacity?

Problem #2: Sneak Attack. I can't flank at range, feinting is melee-only, and I'm unclear about hiding and sneak attacks: if I am hidden and make a full attack on an enemy, are they flat-footed against every attack? This is very important (the reason for the Dark template), so if it doesn't work, I don't know how to get my Sneak Attacks outside of just winning initiative. I would also need to get better hide checks to use Sniping in between full attacks, but it's hard when Thug and Swashbuckler (my other full-BAB Sneak Attacking option) don't get Hide in-class.

What are the best ways of landing ranged sneak attacks? If it is just hiding repeatedly, how can I boost my hide and/or get it in-class for full-BAB sneak attack classes?


And lastly, are there any serious problems you can see aside from those? I don't know what I'll be facing or who I'll be partying with aside from a bard who may also have an embarrassingly low carrying capacity.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-20, 11:50 PM
There's a Halfling Rogue 1 sub level in RotW that adds 1d6 to your ranged SA in exchange for losing you 1d6 melee SA, IIRC. I'd take it.

For gear, I'd recommend looking for something to deal with the bolts. Quiver of Ehlonna in MIC may do it(specialized BoH for ranged weapons), but it may be too expensive/heavy.

FMArthur
2009-07-21, 12:04 AM
The halfling substitution level applies only to slings and thrown weapons... and though it looks like it was intended to really be 1d6 ahead of normal SA, as it stands you don't actually gain anything, just losing some sneak attack with other weapons.

The Quiver of Ehlonna (DMG) on the other hand, is great. 1800gp, 2lbs, and carries 60 arrows/arrow-like objects, plus 6 bow-sized objects and 18 javelin-size objects. Wonderful. :smallbiggrin:

FMArthur
2009-07-21, 11:32 PM
Update: I just found the solution to most of my problems in the form of a single class I overlooked: the ninja! Sudden Strike is only inferior to Sneak Attack when you consider its inability to add extra damage in a flank. I can't flank with my crossbow archer. And my problem of finding ways to trigger my extra damage dice? Solved at ninja level 2 with the ability to become invisible for a whole round, costing me Ki Points. I was trying to work in a fighter level at 6 just to grab Martial Study: cloak of shadows for a lesser effect. This also reduces my problem with weight; armor is by far the heaviest equipment, and ninjas can't wear any (instead getting Wis to AC plus a bonus of 1/5 ninja level), so I can actually live with a strength score of 6. The feat Martial Stalker from CS lets my fighter (and hopefully thug) levels stack with my ninja levels for my Ki Pool and AC bonus. Furthermore, I don't even need the Dark template anymore, giving me a whole extra level to use.

I can only slam my head onto my desk at my stupidity in overlooking the class that does nearly every single thing I've been trying to get this build to do. Now if only I can convince my DM to waive my multiclassing penalties...

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-21, 11:47 PM
A few levels of Artificer (or something else that grants Infusions) and a Third Arm from the MIC would allow you to reload each crossbow without needing another hand. You lose a belt slot and an Infusion/day though.


This bypasses the biggest flaw of your character: You need a free hand to reload any crossbow.

tyckspoon
2009-07-22, 12:01 AM
Have you considered just reducing your Dex a bit? Lower point-buy values are very unkind to people who want a starting 18, especially for build ideas that need multiple stats in the 14+ area; you'd save some really irritating quality-of-life issues with higher Strength, you want at least a positive Wis if you're going to be using Ninja (your Ki pool is based on it, and you're going to be relying mostly on Wis mod for Invis usages if you only have 2 levels of Ninja), and Con is Con. Cut your 18 down to 16 and you can move Wis all the way up to 14, or move Con to 14 and Wis to 12.


I would consider holding on to the Dark template- that +10 extra movement is really handy for a Small race, darkvision is always useful, and the hide bonuses + Hide In Plain Sight can be crucial for securing a surprise round. Also, look into initiative optimization- you're going to have a small Ki pool, so any way you can manage to activate Sneak/Sudden Strike without having to burn a point on being invisible is good. Getting a surprise round + going first in the normal combat is one of the easiest ways to do that.

The White Knight
2009-07-22, 12:05 AM
A few levels of Artificer (or something else that grants Infusions)

Why bother? If it's a free action to give or take from the hand, you could simply pass off your left crossbow as you reload your right, and vice versa, as often as needed.

Fizban
2009-07-22, 02:08 AM
About your carrying capacity problem: you forgot that you're small. This means that armor, weapons, and anything else that is sized for a small person is only half the weight of one for a medium person. Your Mithril Shirt only weighs five pounds and your crossbows only weigh half a pound each with darkwood.

I'm pretty sure ninja invisibility still ends if you make an attack, so wouldn't that mean you're only getting one SA per round?

tyckspoon
2009-07-22, 09:16 AM
I'm pretty sure ninja invisibility still ends if you make an attack, so wouldn't that mean you're only getting one SA per round?

No, ninja invisibility just says 'you become invisible for 1 round.' It doesn't say 'as per the spell invisibility', which means you don't have to worry about all those things that otherwise end the spell version.

Person_Man
2009-07-22, 09:55 AM
For your TWF crossbow reloading issue that will invariably come up:

Find a race with a tail. A Kobold can take the Draconic Tail (Races of the Dragon) feat works. Take the Prehensile Tail (Serpant Kingdoms) feat to get 3 hands, which qualifies them for Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Use an Unseen Servant.
Buy a Third Hand (Magic Item Compendium
Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207)(3.0 material), which eventually gives 2 extra arms. Any of these methods would let you use and reload just 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5) crossbows which you could enchant heavily, instead of dropping crossbows as you used them.


For your Sneak Attack:
Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915). Feat index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats).

The four most important Sneak Attack feats:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.

Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide.


Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

I suggest that you ambush enemies a lot. Buy dogs or donkeys, and use Handle Animal to train them to Grapple. Invest in Skill Tricks. Buy a Wand of Armor Lock (1st level spell). If your Cha is high, you might also want to use Imperious Command (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167.html). When you can afford it, buy a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

zagan
2009-07-22, 10:02 AM
For twf with handcrossbow I must recommand the cavestalker prestige class from drow of the underdark p69 it grant a number of bonus feat relative to the spike chain or the hand crossbow. To qualify you need Know(dungeon)4 rank, survival 8 rank, track, bab+2 and natural darkvision.

FMArthur
2009-07-22, 11:51 AM
Okay, here's my current revision (made during my previous post):

Strongheart Halfling
28 point buy:
8 18 12 10 14 8
6 20 12 10 14 8 - racial adjustment

Flaws: Noncombatant (-2 melee), Poor Reflexes (-3 to Reflex)
Fighter ACF (DotUD): lose heavy armor prof; +2 on Initiative checks, add Dex to damage flat-footed enemies within 30ft

28 point buy array: 10 Str, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha.
Race: Strongheart halfling (FRCS): normal halfling minus save bonuses and plus a bonus feat.
Adjusted ability scores: 8 Str, 20 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha
Flaws: Noncombatant (-2 melee), Poor Reflexes (-3 to Reflex)
Variant Classes: Thug (UA fighter variant): Only light armor proficiency, lose 1st level bonus feat, skills are 4+int and include Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge(local), and Sleight of Hand
Alternate Class Features:
Fighter (DotUD): lose heavy armor prof; +2 on Initiative checks, add Dex to damage flat-footed enemies within 30ft.
Thug (UA): Trade all bonus feats to gain rogue's sneak attack ability.

Classes: Ninja, Fighter, Thug
1 Ninja: 1d6 SS
2 Fighter
3 Ninja
4 Ninja: 2d6 SS
5 Fighter
6 Thug: 1d6 SA, 3d6 SS
7 Thug
8 Thug: 2d6 SA, 4d6 SS
9 Thug
10 Thug: 3d6 SA, 5d6 SS

Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
1 Two Weapon Fighting
1 Rapid Shot
2 Hand Crossbow Focus (DotUD) - gives rapid reload, weap focus
3 Crossbow Sniper (PHBII) - 1/2 Dex to damage, 60ft sneak attack
5 Martial Stalker (CS): fighter/thug levels stack with ninja for Ki Pool and AC bonus
6 Craven - add character level to SA dmg, -2 to save against fear
9 Woodland Archer (RotW) - missing gives +4 to subsequent shots, move while sniping(PHB76), pierce concealment to ignore concealment for 1 round

Skill Tricks:
5 Easy Escape (CS87) [escape artist 8]: bonus to escape grapple/pin equal to target's size bonus
9 Quick Escape (CS89) [escape artist 12]: break grapple as swift action

Equipment (19lb Capacity!):
2 x Masterwork Darkwood Hand Crossbow (1lb): 410gp *2 = 820gp
2 x Hand Crossbow Blade (CS 100, 1/2 lb): 4gp
1 Spare Hand (MIC 137, 5lb): 12000gp - waist slot, holds an item; transferring is free action
1 Quiver of Ehlonna (DMG 265, 2lb): 1800gp = holds 60 arrow-like objects, 6 bow-sized objects, 18 javelin-sized objects



A few levels of Artificer (or something else that grants Infusions) and a Third Arm from the MIC would allow you to reload each crossbow without needing another hand. You lose a belt slot and an Infusion/day though. This bypasses the biggest flaw of your character: You need a free hand to reload any crossbow.

I already had the Spare Hand listed as equipment to aim for; I realize that most TWF crossbow threads are about finding ways to reload, but I already have that out of the way and I can afford the item before my iteratives pick up. I don't feel that this by itself necessitates taking artificer levels.


Have you considered just reducing your Dex a bit? Lower point-buy values are very unkind to people who want a starting 18, especially for build ideas that need multiple stats in the 14+ area; you'd save some really irritating quality-of-life issues with higher Strength, you want at least a positive Wis if you're going to be using Ninja (your Ki pool is based on it, and you're going to be relying mostly on Wis mod for Invis usages if you only have 2 levels of Ninja), and Con is Con. Cut your 18 down to 16 and you can move Wis all the way up to 14, or move Con to 14 and Wis to 12.

I was under the impression that 28 point buy was on the high end... is it really so bad? Anyway, I was making a new stat array for the ninja concept: 6/20/12/10/14/8. I think can afford the 6 in strength thanks to my not needing armor and Fizban's reminder about small-sized equipment, but are there other serious drawbacks I'm missing (that can't be solved with Escape Artist ranks)? Otherwise the extra Dex really is worthwhile.


I would consider holding on to the Dark template- that +10 extra movement is really handy for a Small race, darkvision is always useful, and the hide bonuses + Hide In Plain Sight can be crucial for securing a surprise round. Also, look into initiative optimization- you're going to have a small Ki pool, so any way you can manage to activate Sneak/Sudden Strike without having to burn a point on being invisible is good. Getting a surprise round + going first in the normal combat is one of the easiest ways to do that.

Since I'm pretty likely to win initiative (my +5 dex and the +2 from the fighter ACF I'm taking from DotU puts my initiative at +7) and I'm gaining what is effectively Greater Invisibility for 3+ rounds per day, I feel like hiding is now a secondary tactic. My Sudden Strike is a little behind as is, but with the Dark Template I feel that my lower damage from being behind in levels won't make it worthwhile. I'm already tapped out for feats until later than level 10, but Improved Initiative was given serious consideration, I assure you. I think the +7 should be okay for a while.


For twf with handcrossbow I must recommand the cavestalker prestige class from drow of the underdark p69 it grant a number of bonus feat relative to the spike chain or the hand crossbow. To qualify you need Know(dungeon)4 rank, survival 8 rank, track, bab+2 and natural darkvision.

That class... gives me nothing I need. :smallconfused:
If I were to PrC, it would probably be into Avenging Executioner from Complete Scoundrel. I eventually decided against it due to BAB and Ki Pool concerns.


For your TWF crossbow reloading issue that will invariably come up:

Find a race with a tail. A Kobold can take the Draconic Tail (Races of the Dragon) feat works. Take the Prehensile Tail (Serpant Kingdoms) feat to get 3 hands, which qualifies them for Multi-Weapon Fighting.
Use an Unseen Servant.
Buy a Third Hand (Magic Item Compendium
Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207)(3.0 material), which eventually gives 2 extra arms. Any of these methods would let you use and reload just 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5) crossbows which you could enchant heavily, instead of dropping crossbows as you used them.


For your Sneak Attack:
Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915). Feat index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats).

The four most important Sneak Attack feats:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.

Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide.


Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

I suggest that you ambush enemies a lot. Buy dogs or donkeys, and use Handle Animal to train them to Grapple. Invest in Skill Tricks. Buy a Wand of Armor Lock (1st level spell). If your Cha is high, you might also want to use Imperious Command (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167.html). When you can afford it, buy a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

The 'TWF crossbow reloading issue' is solved and was solved before the thread's inception. The Spare Hand from the MIC seems to be the best route.

I am aware of my inability to hit precision-immune enemies for Sudden Strike damage, but given my feat starvation (I took two flaws, strongheart halfling, and dipped two levels of fighter for the feats I already have), I'm just going to have to depend on my party. I will also need to depend on my party for the Dex-denying spells (unfortunately) because my UMD will be too low to expect a decent chance of success for most of my character's career; I would love to do it myself and idea for training grappler animals is a great one that I now plan to use, but this character can't afford any more feats, and additional magic items will have to wait until after 6th level when I have my Spare Hand. I already thought I would find some help from CS's skill tricks, but I found that nothing there is actually helpful to a ranged attacker.

If my point buy turns out to be 32 or higher, I will most certainly invest in the charisma for Imperious Command and take the Avenging Executioner prestige class, which would enhance the tactic even further. It is really cool. I would also need to just be a human though, to lose the -4 to intimidate for being small. A silverbrow human would even qualify me for Dragonfire Strike. So a few more points in my charisma score would significantly alter my build...

zagan
2009-07-22, 12:04 PM
Yeah sorry I didn't remember that ninja where proeficient with the hand crossbow and seeing that they are exotic weapon and you don't list exotic weapon proeficiency. It look like a good build so far.

ericgrau
2009-07-22, 03:16 PM
#1. Darkwood hand crossbows are 1lb. each. A case of 10 darkwood bolts is 1/2 lb. A mithral shirt is 10 lbs. A Heward's handy haversack (2,000gp) is 5 lbs. and can carry everything else, as well as any extra bolts. 2 crossbows + 20 bolts + mithral shirt + haversack = 2 + 1 + 10 + 5 = 18 lbs.

#2. If you are hidden you only get sneak attack damage from the first attack, because after that the target is aware of you. You can snipe but that only allows 1 attack anyway. The advantage now is that you can snipe twice without reloading. If you win initiative, however, you can get a full attack of sneak attacks. The surprise round (from sneaking up on someone, for example), would give 1 more additional sneak attack before those. But then you'll want quick draw for 1-2 more hand crossbows to get the 3rd attack without reloading. Or drop 1 crossbow and use rapid reload (requires two hands). Greater invisibility would also all full attack sneak attacks, since you stay invisible. As would catching a foe who is balancing (such as on a grease spell) or climbing or grappling. But you need improved precise shot or there's a 50% chance of hitting the wrong grappler.

Misc: If your campaign involves any intrigue or etc., take advantage of the hand crossbow's small size by hiding them on your person with sleight of hand.

Jack Zander
2009-07-22, 03:17 PM
Ah, but how do you reload them with a crossbow in the other hand?

Nevermind, I can't read today... :smallredface:

FMArthur
2009-07-22, 11:25 PM
Don't worry about reloading and getting iteratives, guys. I should have explained this in my first post: the TWF-crossbow-reloading issue is not a problem. I'm quite feat-starved and Quick Draw doesn't actually address the problem of putting your weapon away, so I don't want to litter my hand crossbows about the battlefield if I can't be sure I'll get them back every battle. The most elegant solutions I've seen are:
Glove of Storing (DMG, 10000gp): Lets you put one away and retrieve it as free actions, but unless you convince your DM you can juggle very quickly, you need two to reload both weapons, which is expensive for low levels.
Quick Loading (MIC, +1 weapon enhancement): Lets you load the weapon as a free action... but does not make any mention of requiring two hands or waiving that requirement, which is stated in the crossbows' descriptions. It's a DM call, would cost 8000gp each, and would make further enhancement of the weapons more costly. Obviates the need for Rapid Reload.
Spare Hand (MIC, 12000gp): Gives you an extra hand you can transfer held items to and from as free actions. Very simple, cheaper than the others, and works without question with Rapid Reload.

Since I'm getting Rapid Reload as part of Hand Crossbow Focus for free on the way to Crossbow Sniper, the Spare Hand is the obvious option.