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View Full Version : Is getting a +16 BAB quickly important?



Frosty
2009-07-21, 01:02 AM
According to this chart I found to calculate optimal Manyshot arrow amounts, you'd only ever want to use the max arrows against enemies that are really hard or really easy to hit. If you're an archer and you can potentially get some tasty class benefits like Evasion by delaying your BAB, is it worth it? It seems like your damage output doesn't really go up *that* much for firing an extra arrow, given the -8 penalty you take to each arrow?

Now that I think about it, Manyshot is sort of like Power Attack for one single arrow, except the penalties are pre-determined and you can only choose to try to double, triple, or quadruple your damage output.

The numbers here mean on average, how many arrows will hit.

Red = Four arrows optimal
Blue = Three arrows optimal
Green = Two arrows optimal
Black = One arrow optimal Ties go to most arrows fired

Roll Needed 1 arrow 2 arrows 3 arrows 4 arrows
-6 or less .95 1.90 2.85 3.80
-5 .95 1.90 2.85 3.60
-4 .95 1.90 2.85 3.40
-3 .95 1.90 2.70 3.20
-2 .95 1.90 2.55 3.00
-1 .95 1.80 2.40 2.80
0 .95 1.70 2.25 2.60
1 .95 1.60 2.10 2.40
2 .95 1.50 1.95 2.20
3 .90 1.40 1.80 2.00
4 .85 1.30 1.65 1.80
5 .80 1.20 1.50 1.60
6 .75 1.10 1.35 1.40
7 .70 1.00 1.20 1.20
8 .65 0.90 1.05 1.00
9 .60 0.80 0.90 0.80
10 .55 0.70 0.75 0.60
11 .50 0.60 0.60 0.40
12 .45 0.50 0.45 0.20
13 .40 0.40 0.30 0.20
14 .35 0.30 0.15 0.20
15 .30 0.20 0.15 0.20
16 .25 0.10 0.15 0.20
17 .20 0.10 0.15 0.20
18 .15 0.10 0.15 0.20
19 .10 0.10 0.15 0.20
20 or more .05 0.10 0.15 0.20

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 01:14 AM
Each +1 BAB is an additional +5% chance to hit as well as the extra attacks that come with each 5. It's not vital, but sacrificing BAB needs to be carefully considered. If you generally Manyshot for less than full anyways, the extra attack isn't that great, but you're still giving up to-hit.

Frosty
2009-07-21, 01:19 AM
Each +1 BAB is an additional +5% chance to hit as well as the extra attacks that come with each 5. It's not vital, but sacrificing BAB needs to be carefully considered. If you generally Manyshot for less than full anyways, the extra attack isn't that great, but you're still giving up to-hit.

That is something to consider. I mean, I could go for Evasion or Spell Reflection next level, or I could go for more BAB and try to get to one more arrow 2 levels from now and delay Evasion until 3 levels from now.

Jade_Tarem
2009-07-21, 01:21 AM
Manyshot is not like power attack - you can power attack several times per round; you manyshot only once. Manyshot is there to allow you to fire multiple arrows and move in the same round. It is not as good (penalty is higher) as Rapid Shot because of this - Rapid Shot requires you to stand relatively still, Manyshot does not. The important part here is that you make *one* attack roll with manyshot, and it will be a bad one, so make sure that it's what you want to do. Rapid shot is usually the better option, since you get to make several attacks, each with a separate chance of hitting the target, and almost all of these rolls will be better than your manyshot attack.

Manyshot is just a bad idea in general, if you could make a full attack instead. You will not "double, triple, or quadruple" your damage output. By level 16 you can do 80% of the maximum damage of a Rapid Shot full attack, at most - that percentage drops to 75% from levels 11-15, and 67% from levels 6-10, btw. The difference in damage becomes even greater once we factor in sneak attack or assorted precision damage, since such damage applies multiple times during a full attack if the situation allows for it, but only once during a manyshot no matter what.

No, your final attack is not terribly likely to hit well armored targets, but there are reasons that you should want a high BAB anyway - mostly because you are a ranged martial build, and your attack roll is your All. You exist to deal damage at range, and high BAB should let you do that. On top of that, most martial builds will feature a lot of levels in Ranger or Fighter, complete with a d8+ hit die and a decent CON modifier, making things like evasion less important.

Oh, and Ranger gives evasion at 9th level anyway, let's not forget that.

Where was I? Oh, right, the extra attack. The thing is, your final attack has at least a 5% chance to hit any target, no matter how low the bonus, which is definitely worth preserving if possible. If you're building the character well enough, then the chance to hit should be greater than 5% in most situations.

In the end, though, only you can decide what's best for your character. If you want early evasion or a couple of caster levels, so be it, just remember that your damage and accurace will likely not be as high - and you very rarely sacrifice "only BAB" by dipping in other levels.

Frosty
2009-07-21, 01:38 AM
Ranger only has d8 hitdice, iirc. My CON mod is paltry 14, since magic items are more rare in this campaign. I *would* do Rapidshot, except I can't add Skirmish damage while standing still and Rapid-shotting. There are no Clerics in this campaign and no Travel Devotion feat for me to move with a Swift Action, and I'm not high enough level to dip into Crusader and take the Stance that'd basically let me take 10-ft steps (currently Scout4/Ranger6 with 9 BAB)

With the Greater Manyshot (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/D20:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) feat, I can apply Skirmish and critical hits with all of my arrows. I can take the 5th level of Scout and get Evasion next level, but my BAB would stay at 9. I'm trying to decide if it's worth it.

zugschef
2009-07-21, 02:51 AM
may i refer you to dictum mortuum's swift hunter handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=854152&page=4).

ericgrau
2009-07-21, 06:09 AM
A full BAB class in a cheeseless or low cheese game can expect to often be around the "5" row. Give or take depending on how hard the baddies are. And adjust that for each point of AB that you lose from not being full BAB, not fully pumping dex, or etc.

While quad manyshot doesn't deal 4x damage, as pointed out, it looks like it does average to double damage each time you're forced to attack with a standard action. That's not too shabby at all, and seems worth the feat for any archer that likes to move + attack. Triple many shot isn't much worse. Having a 16 BAB isn't critical for the fourth arrow, but it does make a big difference from that +1 to hit. And double damage is actually far more than what power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) gives. Remember when you get minuses to hit with that feat then all your attacks aren't hitting with it either (barring auto-hit or penalty removing cheese). The main downside to many shot is that often you don't need it because you can full attack.

Zen Master
2009-07-21, 06:26 AM
I'm not entirely sure I even understand what manyshot does.

Or ... I think I do, it just seems slightly pointless. It lets you sacrifice BAB for extra attacks, and lets you fire multiple arrows as a standard action.

Ok fine - so in most cases I'd be better of standing still for a full attack, and in may of the remaining cases I'd be better off with a single arrow that at least has decent chance of hitting.

But ...... as a DM I'm currently trying to help a ranger get the most out of his class.

So ... if you're sniping, would it be possible to break cover, fire a volley with manyshot, then hide as a move action? It would, right?

Also, against terribly easy to hit targets, it would provide an advantage? (or against those you only hit on 20 anyways)

Further - in a setting like Eberron where you can add action points, it improves by quite a margin, right?

Person_Man
2009-07-21, 09:44 AM
In general, I don't think that BAB is very important unless you use Power Attack and it's associated feat chain. If you're having trouble with your To-Hit, then there are dozens of ways to get touch attacks, deny your enemy their Dex, shrink your size (increasing to hit and Dex), and accumulate various bonuses (Knowledge Devotion, Greater Magic Weapon, various other magic and/or psionic buffs). If you're having trouble with your damage output, then you just need better equipment. Splitting arrows, spell storing, smiting spell, ancestral weapon, mercantile background, kensai, etc.

Now if this is a low magic campaign and you're locked into Scout 4/Ranger 6, then I might be wrong. Can you buy Wands? If so, then there are a ton of useful Ranger spells out there, and you can use them all even if you can't currently cast them. Do you have an animal companion? If so, then hook him up to a wagon and have him move you around on his turn. A nice DM might let you count it as movement for Skirmish (even though the errata specifically removes mounted combat, which I think is bs).

If you do go Scout 5/Ranger 9+, then be sure to trade in the extra Evasion for Spell Reflection (Complete Mage) and find a way to boost your touch AC. As a mobility focused ranged build with Evasion and Spell Reflection, at least you won't have any trouble with defense.

Frosty
2009-07-21, 11:33 AM
Not unless you rule that (Greater) Manyshot can work with Shot on the Run. Hiding *after* a shot is a Move action. If the Ranger moves, and then uses a standard action to shoot, he can't hide.

The trick as *I* see it is to not break cover. As a Scout, I need to move. Well, I can move sneakily and silently from underbrush to underbrush, and shoot from cover. Now, to remain hidden while attacking sucks, due to the -20 penalty you're taking, but you *can* do it.

There will be no Splitting enchantment in this campaign (nor in any campaign I've been in really). I traded away my completely weak and useless Companion for Distracting Shot, so I can cause enemies to be flanked with my bow when I hit them. Even if my AC can carry me around on a cart, it just wouldn't work well in the thick underbrush of the Kalimdor forests, and it would completely kill the flavor of a Night Elf archer/ranger type. Yes, this is a WoW setting using 3.5 rules.

The good thing is, night elves in this game get +4 Dex instead of the normal +2, and they also get Darkvision and Hidfe in Plain Sight at night. I don't think I can just go and find a random wand shop around Kalimdor. Items will be powerful, but rare.

daggaz
2009-07-21, 12:55 PM
Yeah but you can stand as a move action, use many shot as your standard action, then drop prone (behind full cover) as a free action. Rinse, repeat. Now, you arent hidden, per say, so no sneak attack on the next round if the target saw you shooting the round before and isnt flanked whatever, but at least you are out of harms way.

Frosty
2009-07-21, 04:53 PM
But we need Skirmish damage, not Sneak Attack right now.

Zen Master
2009-07-22, 02:09 AM
Yeah but you can stand as a move action, use many shot as your standard action, then drop prone (behind full cover) as a free action. Rinse, repeat. Now, you arent hidden, per say, so no sneak attack on the next round if the target saw you shooting the round before and isnt flanked whatever, but at least you are out of harms way.

Well, what I meant was: I'm standing in a bush, hidden. I fire a volley of arrows and the Opposing Force, then move to the next bush, hiding as I go (with the associated -20 to the roll).

And by the answers thus far, that's doable.

What a thorougly annoying tactic - I'll be sure to use it against the players next session. That is after all the best way of showing the party ranger the options available.

Talic
2009-07-22, 02:24 AM
Technically, you can't manyshot a snipe.


Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

If you take more than one ranged attack, you may not snipe. There is a way around this. Halfling Rogue substitution levels to level 10. You sacrifice BAB, but it allows you to make 1 or more attacks as a snipe, and then hide as a free action.

Woodland Archer feat is also worth considering for this. It allows you to bypass concealment at times, and, more importantly, if you sniped successfully last round, it lets you move your speed when you snipe, before the hide roll, and as a free action.

Combine both, and you get the following:

Round 1: Full attack Snipe, hide again at a -10 penalty (per halfling rogue substitution level) or at a -6 penalty (if you also have Able Sniper feat).

Round 2: Full attack Snipe, Move your speed, and hide again at a -10 penalty (per halfling rogue substitution level) or at a -6 penalty (if you also have Able Sniper feat).

In other words? Extra attacks AND mobility. Since the move is after the attack, you don't get to add skirmish damage, but you can combine it with rapid shot and a couple other effects to get some solid damage.

ericgrau
2009-07-22, 10:01 AM
Right, sniping allows an attack, while manyshot is a standard action. But besides all that, the distance penalties from a good sniping range are enough already. You don't want more. I mean, a 200 foot sniping range (-2 to hit on a composite bow) is a good minimum to overcome that -20 to hide. Farther than that is even better to make you harder to spot but it penalizes your attack roll more. Though if your'e a dedicated sniper you'll be taking far shot anyway.

Frosty
2009-07-22, 10:43 AM
You can still attack *while* remaining hidden is the way I read the rules, but the -20 just makes it darned near impossible especially if you're in close range.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-22, 11:15 AM
Each +1 BAB is an additional +5% chance to hit Nonsense. The improvement in your chance to hit is dependent on what roll you need to match the target's AC, and can never be exactly 5%.

If you need to roll a 20 to match the target's AC, boosting your BAB by +1 will give you a 100% increase in your chance to hit (from 1 number to 2). Conversely, if you need to roll a 21 or higher to match the target's AC, boosting your BAB by +1 will give you no (0%) increase in your chance to hit, because a 20 always hits anyway.

On the low end, if you need to roll a 2 or less to match the target's AC, boosting your BAB by +1 will give you no (0%) increase in your chance to hit, because a 1 is always a miss anyway.

If you need to roll a 3 to match the target's AC, boosting your BAB by +1 will give you a 5.6% increase in your chance to hit (from 18 numbers to 19). That's as close as you ever come to a 5% increase.

ericgrau
2009-07-22, 11:40 AM
^ Without any cheese or a 4 different books or etc. a well optimized full BAB class will usually hit on 15 out of 20 attacks. So a point of BAB is worth about 1/15 = 6.7% more hits. Mid BAB classes get even more worth, as does anyone when facing lots of high level (boss) and/or high AC opponents. Low BAB classes get even more but often they don't use it anyway.


You can still attack *while* remaining hidden is the way I read the rules, but the -20 just makes it darned near impossible especially if you're in close range.
Fixed. By the rules it's near impossible to snipe at close range, but cake to snipe from long range. Bow range increments are 100 feet or 110 feet per -2, double with far shot. Max range is 10 times that. With a -1 to spot per 10 feet, it's a piece of cake to remain hidden while sniping from long range. And if you're not being threatened or distracted, you can take a 10 on the hide and make it even easier.

Talic
2009-07-22, 11:44 AM
The only way you can attack and remain hidden is by using the snipe rules presented in the SRD.

That said, halfling is arguably the best race to do sniper from.

Milskidasith
2009-07-22, 11:49 AM
Nonsense. The improvement in your chance to hit is dependent on what roll you need to match the target's AC, and can never be exactly 5%.

If you need to roll a 20 to match the target's AC, boosting your BAB by +1 will give you a 100% increase in your chance to hit (from 1 number to 2). Conversely, if you need to roll a 21 or higher to match the target's AC, boosting your BAB by +1 will give you no (0%) increase in your chance to hit, because a 20 always hits anyway.

On the low end, if you need to roll a 2 or less to match the target's AC, boosting your BAB by +1 will give you no (0%) increase in your chance to hit, because a 1 is always a miss anyway.

If you need to roll a 3 to match the target's AC, boosting your BAB by +1 will give you a 5.6% increase in your chance to hit (from 18 numbers to 19). That's as close as you ever come to a 5% increase.

You got a little bit off with this one, considering it should have been obvious what he meant. Relatively, yes, you get a huge % increase when your BAB goes up if it takes a high roll to hit the enemy. However... you also still get a 5% increase (unless they have 21+ AC above your AB). Think about it: From 20 AC over yours to 19 over yours, you go from 5% chance to hit to 10% chance to hit. A 5% increase. Both that and what you said are correct, and "hitting 100% more often" and "hitting 1 more time per 20 rolls" are one and the same in that situation.

Frosty
2009-07-22, 12:19 PM
Hiding is at most a move action, so there should be enough time for you to do a standard action just as firing a volley and then hiding.