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Kiero
2009-07-21, 04:48 AM
Whenever I see a new RPG, I tend to skip the magic section. I have no interest in it whatsoever. I don't want to play a mage in any game (Jedi are a possible exception), because magic tends to be fiddly and over-complicated. Not only that, mages always seem to be reliant on their magic to the exclusion of everything else; playing a weedy runt really doesn't appeal to me. Give me a character with mundane skills who smacks things with weapons any day.

I don't see spells lists and think "wow, look at all the options", I think "ugh, I don't want to have to learn all that crap". The longer time goes on, the less interesting magic seems to me. I think it's one of the reasons I prefer a Sword and Sorcery flavour to my fantasy.

It's one of those things that puts me off GMing fantasy to a degree, because I know I'm going to be called upon to throw in spellcasting enemies, which means dealing with all the crud. I find GMing magic almost as boring as playing it. Whether it's D&D's spells, Exalted's Charms, or any number of other systems with their lengthy "powers", it's all the same to me. Feng Shui is quite novel in how simple it's magic system is (in contrast to the stupidly over-complicated Fu powers...).

There's a few exceptions. Psionics, in the style of Ravenor's Wizard's Duel is kind of cool. And different from the boring blue bolts of energy of the 40k wargame. Jedi powers, as long as they're not too granular can work. Magic as presented in Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire series is kind of cool too. But D&D-style shopping lists, bleh.

elliott20
2009-07-21, 04:53 AM
It's funny, while I don't mind GMing spell caster NPCs in 3.5E, I would never touch any game that boasts a huge list of spells. I just can't... for the very reason you just named. I just can't be bothered to study the whole system, and come up with ways to optimize each and every option. If no community exists to help me learn this stuff, you can pretty much forget the system all together.

This, however, is not a character issue. This is fundamentally a learning curve issue. But also, in systems that tries to mimic the 3.5 approach (or rather, a huge laundry list of abilities approach), you'll end up with characters who while might have all these interesting powers, if you want them to do something specific, you're gonna be spending HOURS combing through the books to find one that fits. (And for the love god just hope that it does or else you're pulling out your homebrew folder and adding some entries to the list)

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-21, 04:54 AM
I wouldn't see the thing in that way. magic can be a fantastic tool for any game.

Anyway, about one thing I can agree: It's not mandatory. Even with D&D, you could think a setting with only mundane classes.

Of course, you would work about a lot of things, and be aware that things previously trivial would became dangerous. The d8 healing herb in that FR splatbook would become from sometimes useful to very useful, expecialli at low levels.

Killer Angel
2009-07-21, 04:55 AM
Whenever I see a new RPG, I tend to skip the magic section. I have no interest in it whatsoever.

Give me a character with mundane skills who smacks things with weapons any day.

I think it's one of the reasons I prefer a Sword and Sorcery flavour to my fantasy.


Have you ever tried "Conan - the rpg" (moongoose publishing)?
It should suit very well your play-style.

Strawman
2009-07-21, 05:01 AM
A well designed magic system is a fun one that allows players to do things that they normally would not be able to.

A badly designed system is one that chains a magic-using character to their spells. If a person has to use the same spells over and over again (magic missile, acid arrow, fireball, etc) he or she will get bored. Add in the tedium of learning and remembering mundane details about the spells (range in feet, turns to wear off) and many people will want to avoid the magic-using characters.

Personally, whenever I feel like magic is being used to break the rules without breaking the game, I enjoy it. Creativity and freedom are the bread and butter of any good magic system.

AslanCross
2009-07-21, 05:04 AM
I prefer melee to casting, but I don't mind running caster encounters. In fact, I love running them. I like the looks on the players' faces when the caster pulls something they totally didn't expect. If there's anything I find tedious, it's running an encounter where every single monster is a melee brute. The only variety between the monsters tends to be "This is dangerous" and "This is cannon fodder."

Zeta Kai
2009-07-21, 05:18 AM
Well, in the World of Darkness (specifically in Mage: the Ascension (old WoD) or Mage: the Awakening (new WoD)), there are no spell lists, & you can be a big strong spellcaster, if you wanna be. Or a sneaky one, or a religious one, or a technomancy one, or whatever your want. The magic system is freeform & very complex, with a lot of whaddaya-wanna-do & howdoya-wanna-do-it back & forth with your storyteller. It's not for novices, but it's the most fun I've ever had being a mage, as a player.

Kiero
2009-07-21, 05:34 AM
I wouldn't see the thing in that way. magic can be a fantastic tool for any game.

Anyway, about one thing I can agree: It's not mandatory. Even with D&D, you could think a setting with only mundane classes.

The bigger issue is that most players expect magic. Sure you could run a low- or no-magic game, but I doubt most people would want to play in it.


Have you ever tried "Conan - the rpg" (moongoose publishing)?
It should suit very well your play-style.

It's D20, I don't have much time the system.


Well, in the World of Darkness (specifically in Mage: the Ascension (old WoD) or Mage: the Awakening (new WoD)), there are no spell lists, & you can be a big strong spellcaster, if you wanna be. Or a sneaky one, or a religious one, or a technomancy one, or whatever your want. The magic system is freeform & very complex, with a lot of whaddaya-wanna-do & howdoya-wanna-do-it back & forth with your storyteller. It's not for novices, but it's the most fun I've ever had being a mage, as a player.

I've played oMage, rotes are spell lists by another name. That still had a toolkit approach to putting effects together, even if there's more negotiation involved.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-21, 05:42 AM
The bigger issue is that most players expect magic. Sure you could run a low- or no-magic game, but I doubt most people would want to play in it.


Point taken. Maybe no-magic is for a one shot, but in the long road, you are very likely to be right.

oxinabox
2009-07-21, 08:04 AM
Magic as presented in Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire
Do you know how obscenely complicated magic Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire is?

It's awesome, but by no means simple. I'm working on a system for it.

Just looking warrens for a start:
Opening a warren, (warrens must be opened to be cast from) needs to be a action (free, standard move or otherwise)
Closing one also.
There needs to be penalty ascosiated with keeping them open.

not to mention Denul HEalers exist both as a Healer (mullet) (which is almost a warrior, perfectly fine soldier, i'ld say cleric) who cast magic similarly to mages - with warrens, but have no knowledge of how magic works outside there warren, they can hardly take a guess at it.

But mages can also use Denul to heal, eg Teyschen (sp?)

and many mages have many warrens, some can have multiple open and cast from atone (quickben = soulsplice too).

Then there is the difernce between priest and mages... is there one? who knows?
a priest of fener can ascess his warren but no mage can.
a priest of minas seems to act just like a mage.

then theres the menis/rashan debarkle:
Is menis Rashan?... actually it depends on belife system:
in seven cities the belive menis is rashan and can cast on throuigh the other.
in genabakis and ite kon (sp?) there speerate, and the ability to do menes =ilisions is new.

But what bellongs ot what?
Rashan is shadow stepping, meins is illusions.
But which is the binding of demons from the warren of shadow?
what is the warren of shadow? it's part of a broken warren which expelains the most of the debarkle.
But rashan is decened from darkness not shadow... or is it?

then there Arval Gral. more demons.

and Thyr!
It has no defined uses (if you accept Gardens of the moon as cannon which many don't, than it can create sheilds and make a high warren for transport)
towards the latter books is discribe as being related to illisions, contrary to what many practioner's of thyr think (what ever that means).

and that's just warrens.
don't forget spirit/warlock magic, tile of the hold, the singing one (that can cause ascendancy) tanto spiritwalker IRRC.


One thing i have worked out how to do neatly is the deck of dragons.
it's simply a feat, min lvl 4.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-21, 08:57 AM
Well, in the World of Darkness (specifically in Mage: the Ascension (old WoD) or Mage: the Awakening (new WoD)), there are no spell lists, & you can be a big strong spellcaster, if you wanna be. Or a sneaky one, or a religious one, or a technomancy one, or whatever your want. The magic system is freeform & very complex, with a lot of whaddaya-wanna-do & howdoya-wanna-do-it back & forth with your storyteller. It's not for novices, but it's the most fun I've ever had being a mage, as a player.

So have you not played Mage: the Awakening ever or what?

The book is twice as thick as the other two "core" splats - because half the damn book consists of spell lists.

Kiero
2009-07-21, 09:20 AM
Do you know how obscenely complicated magic Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire is?

It's awesome, but by no means simple. I'm working on a system for it.


Whoa, who's talking about using a D20 system for it? It's very simple with FATE/SotC.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-21, 09:23 AM
So have you not played Mage: the Awakening ever or what?

The book is twice as thick as the other two "core" splats - because half the damn book consists of spell lists.

Also, isn't Mage: The Awakening oWoD and Mage: The Ascension nWoD?

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-21, 09:24 AM
Also, isn't Mage: The Awakening oWoD and Mage: The Ascension nWoD?

Not at all, no.

Kiero
2009-07-21, 09:24 AM
Also, isn't Mage: The Awakening oWoD and Mage: The Ascension nWoD?

Other way around. And there's three editions of Ascension.

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-21, 09:30 AM
I like magic. I see big, vast, complicated systems and think "OM NOM NOM DATA DOWNLOAD INITIATING ESTIMATE TIME REMAINING SIX HOURS NO WAIT TWO MINUTES NO WAIT TWO WEEKS NO WAIT IT'S DONE"


I like playing scrawny little mages; in a group of barbarians and rangers and paladins, I'm weak in the exact areas everyone else is strong, but I'm strong in areas that no one else even thought of.

Saph
2009-07-21, 09:36 AM
Yeah, I love playing mages, so I can't really relate.

I suspect I'd find a no-options magic system very boring, because there just wouldn't be enough mechanical variety. I like having big spell lists and coming up with odd combos.

- Saph

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-21, 09:36 AM
Not at all, no.

Hmm, what do you know? There are nWoD games that do end with "-ing".

Is it any good, at least?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-21, 09:37 AM
I like magic. I see big, vast, complicated systems and think "OM NOM NOM DATA DOWNLOAD INITIATING ESTIMATE TIME REMAINING SIX HOURS NO WAIT TWO MINUTES NO WAIT TWO WEEKS NO WAIT IT'S DONE"

I agree with the general sentiment, if not the particular method of data acquisition. :smallwink: I like magic because of all the ways you can accomplish it, all the effects it can have on a setting, mechanical expressions of flavor, and that sort of thing. I think I might be one of the few people who actually likes Vancian casting, because of all the implications it has for society (easily repeatable, easily accessed magic is world-changing) and because it's different from all of the "Here's spell points and a way to spend them" systems.

Granted, if you just take a random system of magic and plop it down in a setting without regard for consequences, the way many people play D&D as just "the Middle Ages plus magic and dragons," then I can see why magic would be tedious and boring. If you really integrate it into the setting, though, it can be fantastic in every sense of the word.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-21, 09:40 AM
I agree with the general sentiment, if not the particular method of data acquisition.

Hey, it takes around an hour to download Exalted 2nd Edition and it has little actual sorcery in it.

Book of Sorcery II takes around ten minutes and contains much, much more sorcery than the core rulebook has.

((Some of us download our .pdf's legally, after all.))

By the way, what constitutes a magic system? For all I know, the entire Powers chapter of Mutants & Masterminds is magic, but it doesn't have to be.

Yrcrazypa
2009-07-21, 09:49 AM
I'm playing a caster that is far from weedy in NWN2 (hey, I enjoy it) on a persistent world server, and so far I have had to act as the guy who takes all the damage, even though as of right now I am only 10th level, and a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster. Built right, casters can be powerful at flinging spells, and can act as a beatstick. And this caster? He can do rogue things very nearly as well as a straight rogue.

Fun character to play in groups when other people can support him, but as of right now he doesn't have all the necessary things to be amazing at everything (IE equipment.)

As limiting as NWN2 is, his build is very flexible, which one thing I always love to have is flexibility.

Trying to play a straight caster though? Very tedious, since you have to worry about so many more things than even my multiclass wizard/rogue, because most of the time all he does is buff and bash. With throwing a few other spells here and there in sticky situations.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-21, 09:51 AM
Hmm, what do you know? There are nWoD games that do end with "-ing".

Is it any good, at least?

It is pretty good, yes. Even though half the book is spell lists, the magic system is surprisingly flexible.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-21, 09:55 AM
It is pretty good, yes. Even though half the book is spell lists, the magic system is surprisingly flexible.

Which one is better, then: Ascension or Awakening?

AslanCross
2009-07-21, 10:01 AM
I forgot to add. I've actually played a high-level caster (Lv 18 Wizard/Cleric/Geometer/Silver Flame Pyromancer).

Yes, it was tedious. The Book of Geometry that the Geometer gets wasn't anywhere enough to contain all the spells that a Wizard with the Elf Wizard substitution level and Collegiate Wizard gets. I had to buy a Blessed Book when I generated my character.

I had to actually study every single spell I chose and figure out how to properly Metamagic my spells so they'd be more effective. It was a very cerebral process. It was hard, but honestly, I enjoyed it for all its tedium. My high-level paladin was much more frustrating to play due to her being useless in a lot of battles.

By contrast I find running casters as a DM way easier. The caster is typically only expected to fight one battle. Using up all of one's spells is typically the way an NPC caster should fight, since all of the spells prepared/chosen are combat-oriented and he doesn't need to worry about saving some for later.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-21, 10:15 AM
I like magic because I like options in combat, and in many RPGs playing a character with spellcasting or other special powers is the only way to have options significantly more varied than moving around, auto-attacking with your weapon, and using items from time to time.

Also, I find it quite amusing how Kiero says that all casters are weedy runts, and mentions Exalted and its charms two paragraphs later.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-21, 10:17 AM
Also, I find it quite amusing how Kiero says that all casters are weedy runts, and mentions Exalted and its charms two paragraphs later.

Does that amusement include how Twilights, the most common sorcerers, get a damage reducing anima power or is it amusing enough without it?

Tengu_temp
2009-07-21, 10:19 AM
Actually, from my experience 90% of sorcerers in Exalted are weedy runts. It's just that using charms is enough to qualify as a caster, even though there's a high chance you're a powerful warrior clad in golden armor and wielding what can only be described as a sharpened industrial girder.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-21, 10:23 AM
Hey, it takes around an hour to download Exalted 2nd Edition and it has little actual sorcery in it.

Book of Sorcery II takes around ten minutes and contains much, much more sorcery than the core rulebook has.

((Some of us download our .pdf's legally, after all.))

I was referring to the part about yelling "OM NOM NOM DATA DOWNLOAD" when reading the spells; I prefer PDFs over hardcover myself, since I can't fit many physical books in my dorm room. If you insist on saying OM NOM NOM when you click the download button, I can't fault you for that. :smallwink:


By the way, what constitutes a magic system? For all I know, the entire Powers chapter of Mutants & Masterminds is magic, but it doesn't have to be.

D&D has a magic system, the Force is a magic system, Mage has a magic system. If there's a mechanical way to represent bashing the laws of physics upside the head, and it's believable and internally consistent, it's a magic system. Basically, it includes pretty much everything you'd think of when you think of "magic" except the various magic-works-however-is-most-relevant-to-the-plot approaches occasionally seen in LotR, the Shannara books, Eragon, etc.--not that I want to lump in the latter two ripoffs with Tolkien, of course, but in all of those cases magic does whatever is right for the story, whether because it's meant to be mysterious and awe-inspiring or because the author is pulling it out of...ahem, thin air.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-21, 10:24 AM
Actually, from my experience 90% of sorcerers in Exalted are weedy runts. It's just that using charms is enough to qualify as a caster, even though there's a high chance you're a powerful warrior clad in golden armor and wielding what can only be described as a sharpened industrial girder.

Well, weedy runt is a relative term. Even a dedicated sorcerer can be a melee killing machine when facing a group of mortals. Then again, they are mortals. Unless they are using the Mass Combat rules and / or cheating, their greatest narrative role is to fall like leaves in autumn.

Though Solar charms are not really caster-level Charms. At least by the D&D definition of "caster". Sidereal and Dragon-blooded Elemental Charms, now those are caster-level Charms.

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-21, 10:30 AM
Which one is better, then: Ascension or Awakening?

I'm going to say Awakening even though I've never played Ascension.

'Cause it uses the much-better nWoD system.

The Rose Dragon
2009-07-21, 10:31 AM
I'm going to say Awakening even though I've never played Ascension.

'Cause it uses the much-better nWoD system.

Weren't you the one who liked Changeling: the Dreaming over Changeling: the Lost?

Morty
2009-07-21, 10:40 AM
I like magic. In fact, when learning about a new system, I usually skip to the "magic" section. Also, I prefer the systems with long and detailed spell lists like in D&D rather than "flexible" spells.
That said, I do prefer systems in which wizards are still normal people rather than demi-gods. But that comes with a preference towards low-powered systems in general.

Starsinger
2009-07-21, 10:53 AM
I like casters, in fact, I won't play anything else. But that said, I prefer systems where the magic system is flexible so you're entitled to think outside of the box, instead of finding a loophole to destroy the box. Like using an ice spell to freeze a door, instead of using a spell whose function is to freeze doors shut.

But I agree, the longer the list of spells the more boring it gets, especially when there's literally a spell for every occasion. Spell selection shouldn't end up being about the GM punishing you repeatedly by making you feel as if the seventeen spells you didn't have room for would have been more useful.

Random832
2009-07-21, 11:23 AM
So have you not played Mage: the Awakening ever or what?

The book is twice as thick as the other two "core" splats - because half the damn book consists of spell lists.

If it's like Ascension (and he seems to be assuming it is, at least), the point is that there's not a limited set of spells you can cast - the spells in the books are just examples of what you can do.

satorian
2009-07-21, 11:52 AM
Mage: The Awakening, IMHO, has a less interesting meta-plot, and a much more shackled magic system. If I remember (I've only read it, not played it) mages have to learn rotes to use them. That constraint was put in, I imagine, to balance mages with the other nWoD character types. That was just not a concern in oWoD. Mages in Ascension were more powerful than any and all the other supernaturals. but it didn't matter, since mages were expected to hang out with mages, werewolves with werewolves, and vampires with vampires.

In my experience, with a mature and creative group, no rpg is better than mage: the ascension. With a less mature or creative group, no game is more unplayable.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-21, 11:54 AM
Don't want to play a weedy runt? I just happen to know the solution for you!


I present for you the Student of the Atlas School, a Str-based spellcasting class!

The Students of Atlas scorn the weak ivory-tower mages who ignore their physical bodies to leech power via magical rites; they are equally contemptuous of sorcerers who rely on inheritance and personality to gain sorcerous might. To a Student of Atlas, the power of both is a sham; the only true power in this world is the power of a lean, muscular body. The Students of Atlas devote themselves to developing their beautiful muscles; they are so strong that, with a mere flex and a few boastful words, they can produce magical effects, as reality itself reshapes around their toned, muscular form. However, they are narcissistic, and must devote a certain percentage of their magic to improving their own body. Their study of bodybuilding is also focused almost entirely on the sheer, raw effect that a muscular body has, embodied in a physical presence not unlike the power a sorcerer normally gains from the strength of their personality; they do not normally study arms or physical combat, although it is not uncommon for them to branch out in that direction once they feel their studies in the Atlas school itself are complete.

A student of the atlas school is an arcane caster who casts Str-based spells. They learn and cast spells as a sorcerer, with the additional restriction that a certain percentage of their spells must be devoted to personal or touch-range buff spells (from a list.) There are some spells, such as Bull's Strength, that they are absolutely required to take; these still take up spells-known slots. Additionally, they are barred from learning or using evocation or necromancy spells (and derive no benefit from this). Finally, they refuse to cast any spell that will weaken their prestine bodies, viewing it as a bad trade in any circumstances; specifically, they will not cast any spell with an XP cost, and can learn such spells only when they have (and only for use with) a non-xp-costing option, such as Gate for travel.

Aside from these restrictions, they can fill their remaining slots with whatever they wish.

They do get some other advantages to make up for the restrictions. They have a whopping d10 for HP, and both good fort and will saves; they have a slightly expanded skill list over a sorcerer, including skills such as intimidate, climb, jump, and swim (however, they still only get 2 + int mod skill points per level, and with no real use for int, they are unlikely to be good at much.) They eventually get abilities that let them apply their Str modifier as an (additional) bonus to many charisma-based checks and bonuses, such as intimidate or diplomacy; and to substitute it for their con for the purposes of calculating their fort save. Although they are suitable to develop into a gish caster with the proper training, the class itself provides no special advantages in this direction beyond Str-based spellcasting itself.

To recover their spells, they must rest for eight hours, followed by 10-15 minutes of rigorous exercise and flexing.

DJDeMiko
2009-07-21, 12:00 PM
That's actually something I really like about Mutants and Masterminds

Everything is the same in terms of powers, you just flavor it with whatever you want. Whether you are using arcane powers to cast incredible spells or throwing a rock with super strength, you use almost the same rules.

Make up the most complex spell you want, and mutants and masterminds lets you turn it into a fairly easy to handle power set that everyone can understand.

Of course, learning the rules to make all those powers can be a little tougher.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-21, 12:01 PM
I've played oMage, rotes are spell lists by another name. That still had a toolkit approach to putting effects together, even if there's more negotiation involved.

Anyone whose played Mage for any amount of time knows to ignore what's given and always improvise. That's why it's there. Rotes are annoying and pointless when you can just cast Life and become stronger than any Werewolf. Hell, I've played a Mage in Awakening who rolled 13 dice for an unarmed attack. With 0 dots in Brawl.


Which one is better, then: Ascension or Awakening?

I'm gonna say Awakening, having played both. Ascension is better for the fluff(which is easily transmigrated), but Awakening gives set rules for improvised casting(which is a huge deal because in Ascension the ST says how hard improvised casting is, and STs that don't like mages are very hard to play under). This, of course, ignores any merit of the inherent d10 system either nWoD or oWoD uses as this is purely comparison between the two Mage books.

Belobog
2009-07-21, 01:06 PM
Mage: The Awakening, IMHO, has a less interesting meta-plot, and a much more shackled magic system. If I remember (I've only read it, not played it) mages have to learn rotes to use them. That constraint was put in, I imagine, to balance mages with the other nWoD character types. That was just not a concern in oWoD. Mages in Ascension were more powerful than any and all the other supernaturals. but it didn't matter, since mages were expected to hang out with mages, werewolves with werewolves, and vampires with vampires.

Far as I know, Mage: The Awakening doesn't work like this. Any mage can cast any spell at any time, as long as they have the dots in the Arcanum to know it and can make up any other costs (Paradox chance notwithstanding). The only thing rotes do is add Abilities (or whatever WoD calls skills, I can never remember) to the dice pool. So that Ghost Summons rote, instead of just using Manipulation and dots in Death, now has a dice pool equal to Manipulation, Death dots, and Subterfuge, for example.

So yeah, Mages still get super powers and can conquer heaven for no reason whatsoever, long as no one's watching them.

Kiero
2009-07-21, 01:56 PM
Anyone whose played Mage for any amount of time knows to ignore what's given and always improvise. That's why it's there. Rotes are annoying and pointless when you can just cast Life and become stronger than any Werewolf. Hell, I've played a Mage in Awakening who rolled 13 dice for an unarmed attack. With 0 dots in Brawl.

That "improvising" is what I was referring to with negotiation. And the fact that the list is put together on the fly (and chances are once you've done it once, you'll use it in the future) doesn't remove the list.

satorian
2009-07-21, 02:03 PM
Far as I know, Mage: The Awakening doesn't work like this. Any mage can cast any spell at any time, as long as they have the dots in the Arcanum to know it and can make up any other costs (Paradox chance notwithstanding). The only thing rotes do is add Abilities (or whatever WoD calls skills, I can never remember) to the dice pool. So that Ghost Summons rote, instead of just using Manipulation and dots in Death, now has a dice pool equal to Manipulation, Death dots, and Subterfuge, for example.

So yeah, Mages still get super powers and can conquer heaven for no reason whatsoever, long as no one's watching them.

In Ascension, there aren't spells at all. Rotes are just examples of what you can do with dots in various things. And aside from paradox, there are no other costs. I loved the creativity that spurred.

It's been a while since I read awakening, so what are the other costs you mentioned? Is it the case, as it seems, that abilities and skills in Awakening are as or more important than magic(k)al ability? If so, don't you think that's weird?

NeoVid
2009-07-21, 02:08 PM
Mage is the game I've played by far the most, and I've found you'll virtually never use a list of spells in Mage. There are 100 pages of example spells in the core book, but my most powerful, most played character, who also happened to have a serious need for rotes, ended up having 6 rotes by the end of the game.

98% of your spells in Mage will be improvised, with few exceptions.

That said, Mage has more fiddly bits in its system than any other I've seen, since there need to be rules for every single way you can modify an improvised spell.

Umael
2009-07-21, 02:28 PM
To the OP:

Have you taken a look at Iron Heroes? It is a variant d20 system that emphasizes might and mind over magic (i.e., hit them fast, hit them hard, hit them smart, but don't use that magic stuff).

In the basic book, there are ten new character classes, and only one of them, the Arcanist, uses magic. Furthermore, because of the way the magic system works, sensible people don't trust it - including the Arcanist! Magic weapons are rare and dangerous - to both the target and the user (think Stormbringer - give me souls, or I'll eat yours)!

The magic (spell) system itself is both greatly simplified and noticeably more complex. It is simplified in that there isn't a ever-growing laundry list of spells to cast, but more complex in how the system is set up so that you can cast your spells. In regular 3.x, you know X number of spells at any particular given spell level and you can cast Y number of spells of that level per day. For Iron Heroes, you set the level of the school you can cast, you channel the mana, and then you make sure you successfully cast your spell.

The Iron Heroes Companion introduced three new classes, one of which is also a spell-casting class, but I haven't examined it closely to see how that one works (it uses a different system).

In the game I am running, I have five players, only one of whom is an Arcanist (and the only one with magic) - and that player is the most unlikely of all of them to be able to make it to game. The lack of a magic-using class hasn't slowed down the group at all; and they each have a distinctive style.

(Incidentally, the other classes the players are playing are Archer, Thief, Man-at-Arms, and Executioner).

As a sidenote, the default race is human, but you get to "customize" your human with traits as if each human was a distinct race.

Kalirren
2009-07-21, 02:57 PM
Magic is cheap. Anyone can cook up yet another magic system, or another flavor of spells or powers or effects or what have you. Settings are also cheap. Give me a premise and I can make a setting.

What isn't cheap, on the other hand, is coherence between magic and setting, since most fantasies are (directly or indirectly) kludged off of literature where magic works with the power of plot.

What I really appreciate is when the setting is woven into the magic. I think it may even be a de facto requirement for me to become interested in a magical setting. Take the premise of the Geneforge series of cRPGs, for example. The Shapers are mageocrats; they are scientists; they create new forms of life by throwing magic at it until it mutates to give something new, interesting, useful, or powerful. They make magical microscopes capable of changing DNA. And then they get in trouble because they start altering themselves. Built upon this you have all sorts of power politics, and it is natural. The description of the magic, in terms of system, may not amount to anything more than a typical cRPG is capable of delivering. But the setting is founded upon the premise of magic in a meaningful way, and that's enough to make it interesting.

So I can sympathize with the OP in not liking Sears-catalog-style approaches to magic. That style of RPG system writing is for the convenience of RPG shoppers in a gaming store who are looking for a system, not very used to homebrew, and want to know if the system they're looking at buying is capable of supporting the types of characters they have in mind. They want to be able to flip to the magic section and say, "Oh, okay, yes, they -do- have character options for people who want to play wizards." They want to be able to know that handguns have been thought through by the devs and they do about 5 dice of damage.

The level of question we've started asking ourselves is running in reverse to this mentality. Instead of "I want to play this sort of game; I'm looking for a -system- that can do it," it's "What kinds of games -can- we play? what sorts of systems do we need to run them effectively?"

I'd like to pose a question to the OP: What do -you- want from magic in your games? You say you like "Swords and Sorcery," but at the same time you don't like the sort of "wizardry" that often comes along with using systems that have extensive spell catalogs. Are you extensively committed to running low-/no- magic campaigns, or are you merely putting that idea forth in order to avoid the spell lists?

Belobog
2009-07-21, 03:20 PM
In Ascension, there aren't spells at all. Rotes are just examples of what you can do with dots in various things. And aside from paradox, there are no other costs. I loved the creativity that spurred.

It's been a while since I read awakening, so what are the other costs you mentioned? Is it the case, as it seems, that abilities and skills in Awakening are as or more important than magic(k)al ability? If so, don't you think that's weird?

After reading NeoVid's post, I went over the magic section again and it looks like I was wrong. Awakening works exactly like that, the spells and rotes are just examples, and if you want, you can do something not in the book (like turning a dude into gold bricks (Life 5 + Matter 4)). I just tend to rely on the rotes, being fairly new to playing Mage and not having a lot of patience for PDFs. Improvised magic does cost a Mana point per spell, though, so watch out for that.

However, I would class skill and abilities just as important as Gnosis (or 'magic skill'), seeing as they can add directly to your result in the form of dice, and there are lots of situations where casting magic is a Bad Idea (re: paradox). I don't find it really weird; magic can do anything and everything, but you still have to work with what you have, and even when you can magic something, it's still important to be able to do things as a person.

As for the cost, there are some types of spells that use Mana, usually for high power things (like enchanting a twig to punch through armor, or creating stuff out of solid magic that you could suck Mana out of). Far as I can tell, it's like Vitae for Vampires; you need it to do some things, and you don't need it for other things.

jmbrown
2009-07-21, 03:22 PM
I don't care for laundry lists of spells but what I like are point based games that let me create my own magic like GURPS. In that system you're ensured that not everyone has the same spell. You still have spell staples like "the ranged attack" and "the burst attack" but you, the player, can easily customize their properties, cost, how they work and even if they work under certain settings.

VirOath
2009-07-21, 03:47 PM
Personally, I like magic. It's a fun, creative tool that can be used in interesting ways. Then again, same with skills and mundane items.

I just HATE the big V system for DnD magic. I can barely stand playing an Sorc. I much prefer the Power Point system brought in EPH, but most of the people I play with won't touch that system.

I even think that the current magic system for DnD is the worst idea ever for one, done to the point of retardation.

But that is just my opinion.

Jerthanis
2009-07-21, 04:56 PM
Actually, from my experience 90% of sorcerers in Exalted are weedy runts. It's just that using charms is enough to qualify as a caster, even though there's a high chance you're a powerful warrior clad in golden armor and wielding what can only be described as a sharpened industrial girder.

From my experience, Sorcerers tend to be in the heaviest armor, since actual combat wombats will prioritize their beatstick, and rely on charm use for defense. Sorcerers will have demons living in their skin to toughen it. Then they turn their skin to bronze making it even tougher, and then they'll be wearing artifact armor on top of that. I think the average sorcerer soak total rests around 20L, while a non-sorcerer might get to around 10-12L.

The reason being that soak-based defense is more risky than other methods of defense, but while casting spells you can't activate charms, and your DV is also significantly impacted.

Lamech
2009-07-21, 05:42 PM
I like the Vancian system, its kind of unique and cool. Rolemaster keeps you from having a laundry lists of spells to chose from, you can just pick the lsit of what you want to do... (okay so there's still a bunch of lists to choose from, but compared to the skills you can pick?)

I've only seen a few highly moddable systems, were everything is custom, for creating spells and they seemed easy to break. Is that a common theme?

Kiero
2009-07-21, 05:42 PM
To the OP:

Have you taken a look at Iron Heroes? It is a variant d20 system that emphasizes might and mind over magic (i.e., hit them fast, hit them hard, hit them smart, but don't use that magic stuff).

Look, I appreciate that this is a D20-oriented forum, but I'm really not interested in D20 systems. This isn't even really about systems, nor am I looking for recommendations.

I mentioned the ones that kind of work thematically, beyond that I'm largely unimpressed with the various things I've seen. Even so, I still have no interest in playing a caster character, and don't look forward to running them as GM.


I'd like to pose a question to the OP: What do -you- want from magic in your games? You say you like "Swords and Sorcery," but at the same time you don't like the sort of "wizardry" that often comes along with using systems that have extensive spell catalogs. Are you extensively committed to running low-/no- magic campaigns, or are you merely putting that idea forth in order to avoid the spell lists?

For one I like a much looser mechanical approach to magic. As I mentioned in the OP, I like Feng Shui's treatment (though it then goes off the deep end with Fu schticks). It has about ten broad powers that cover all the things that are appropriate with magic. PCs start off with 3-5 of them if they're magical at all.

Most of them rely on GM fiat, but that's fine because I'm quite comfortable with assuming that my GM isn't going to be looking to slap down everything that the players come up with. I'm also comfortable assuming that the players aren't going to behave like lawyers looking for loopholes and exploits in the rules, I don't play with people like that.

I'm quite happy with straight historical, for example, with only a touch of weirdness at the edges (not out and out magic). Or flavoured, but limited magic (like the Malazan Empire series, where most humans can only access one or at most two of the dozens of Warrens out there). Where magic isn't the great be-all and end-all that replaces ability in every other sphere.

NeoVid
2009-07-21, 05:54 PM
After reading NeoVid's post, I went over the magic section again...

Whoo! I contributed to someone's understanding!

You did remind me about the point that Mage's system has many fiddly bits... overlooking tiny things can really mess you up. Example: you actually don't have to spend Mana every time you improvise. That cost does not apply to spells that use only your ruling arcana.

So yeah... it is an amazing magic system, but it had to be mechanically intensive.

Yknow, this topic got me thinking about RPGs that don't include any magic at all, and not many are coming to mind. Huh.

Draz74
2009-07-21, 06:07 PM
What isn't cheap, on the other hand, is coherence between magic and setting, since most fantasies are (directly or indirectly) kludged off of literature where magic works with the power of plot.

Sounds like you should take a look at the Mistborn RPG when it comes out later this year. Maybe the OP would even like it -- magic does very specific things in the Mistborn setting, kinda the opposite of a laundry list style.

Quietus
2009-07-21, 06:15 PM
If it's like Ascension (and he seems to be assuming it is, at least), the point is that there's not a limited set of spells you can cast - the spells in the books are just examples of what you can do.

To a point. It's been a while since I've cracked the book, but just off the top of my head... the spells presented in the book, as has been mentioned, are Rotes. They're spells that you've practiced so much with that you can basically cast them with muscle memory (simplification, but..), and as a result, take less to cast. The tradeoff is that they're less flexible, and cost experience to learn. They also replace Gnosis with a trait+ability combination; I apologize if that's the wrong terminology, but hopefully you understand.

For the Death spell mentioned above, for example, to cast it as an improvised spell would ALWAYS cost one mana (all improvised spells do, not all rotes do, if memory serves). As an improvised spell, you'd be rolling Gnosis+Death for the required successes. Cast as a rote, the spell may not require mana, and instead of Gnosis+Death, you'd be rolling Manipulation+Subterfuge+Death. So yes, you can end up with a higher dice pool, but you had to spend experience to gain that benefit. As a Rote, it also reduces the Paradox die pool by one, if memory serves.



As to which is better... I never cracked the Ascension book before, but just based on the World of Darkness system, I'd have to say the new one. It runs much more smoothly - it does end up with a couple minor oddities, like how a weapon that does more damage is also by its nature more accurate, but that's really not a big issue. With the old system, each attack required three rolls - roll to hit, roll for damage, roll to soak. And it was possible to attack multiple times in a turn. Plus there was the variable difficulties, and the weird way botches worked, where there was a point that you were mathematically hurting your odds by having more dice.

New World of Darkness streamlines all that; No more botches, for one, unless you're doing something that's incredibly risky (read : you're down to zero dice). Things that make something harder/easier don't modify difficulties, they alter the dice pool. So for an attack, you roll a single dice pool based on your traits/abilities, with more or less dice depending on what weapon you're using and other mitigating circumstances (like rain, for example). Reduce the die pool by their appropriate defenses, and then roll the remaining dice. So rather than having three rolls at different difficulties, the ST can say "You get +3 dice for your weapon, -2 for the rain, and they have a dodge of 2. Subtract one die from strength+melee, and tell me how many successes you get".

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-21, 06:17 PM
Sounds like you should take a look at the Mistborn RPG when it comes out later this year.

*blinks*


Mistborn RPG

...they're turning my absolute favorite fantasy series into an RPG? Why didn't I hear about this sooner!?

*rushes off to Google*

Belobog
2009-07-21, 06:25 PM
Whoo! I contributed to someone's understanding!

You did remind me about the point that Mage's system has many fiddly bits... overlooking tiny things can really mess you up. Example: you actually don't have to spend Mana every time you improvise. That cost does not apply to spells that use only your ruling arcana.

...Huh. Gives me something to think about, at least.


Yknow, this topic got me thinking about RPGs that don't include any magic at all, and not many are coming to mind. Huh.

Wasteland? Basically a Fallout rip-off, but still counts, I guess.

jmbrown
2009-07-21, 06:37 PM
Wasteland? Basically a Fallout rip-off, but still counts, I guess.

Fallout is the spiritual successor to Wasteland which came out almost 10 years before it.

I'm assuming you're talking about the PC game and not something completely different.

Umael
2009-07-21, 09:05 PM
Look, I appreciate that this is a D20-oriented forum, but I'm really not interested in D20 systems. This isn't even really about systems, nor am I looking for recommendations.

So... you posted to complain?

...

*shrug*

Okay, then.

*wanders off*

HamHam
2009-07-21, 09:07 PM
Magic is the most interesting part of any system, to me.

Belobog
2009-07-21, 09:59 PM
Fallout is the spiritual successor to Wasteland which came out almost 10 years before it.

I'm assuming you're talking about the PC game and not something completely different.

Looks like I've been learning a lot today.

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-21, 11:07 PM
I've been reading through Unknown Armies again.
It does well at making magic interesting, dirty, and uncertain.
Avatars who have to devote their lives to an external idea to use their powers.
Adepts who distort the oddities of reality to gain charges to work their magic.

And then rituals which usually don't require any rolls at all, but might not work when all is said and done.

Also has more child sacrifice then mage on average.

oxinabox
2009-07-21, 11:13 PM
about your compain about my post about magic in the malazan empire.
I don't thjink i mad nay referncew to it being d20 (i did say standard, or move or free action, and admittedly i am designing it for d20ish, oh i said teat too)
But in any stetem (exempt those along the lines of wushu - where everything is simple. as it is naritive based).
Magic in Malazan book of the fallen is simple for any one warren, but complex when you look at the many of them.
Eg warren breaking, that havlock did, and quichben did also.

But also almost all High Mages have multiple (more than two)
Quickben: 12. but he hads soulsplice.
Tayschrenn has been identified as High Telas, Denul, Aral Gamelon, the Imperial Warren, Thyr probably Mockra, at least.

High mages and cadre mages would be the only sort considered for "hero's" = PC's
Cadre mages only have one warren - normally.

Still PC's would not all want to be in the long term a ssimple cadre mage.

But still open is the question of what a particualr warren can do esp. thyr and rashan.

then take elder racial warrens.
the tiste edur can do almost anything with edur.
incuding healing

FMArthur
2009-07-21, 11:42 PM
I think magic is made intentionally obfuscatory and time-draining in some systems to maintain a reasonable ratio of casters to ordinary folk in campaign settings, because it gets really hard to take all the "mysterious magic" fluff seriously when everyone and his dog is practicing magic through classes, bloodlines, and magic items. Magic being uncomplicated in 4th is probably what makes magic seem so ordinary (and less interesting), just because most players are fiddling with magic of some kind at all levels of play.

Thrawn183
2009-07-22, 03:15 AM
Iron Heroes! Down with mages! Down with magic items! Down with WBL!

Up with awesome!

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-22, 03:25 AM
Iron Heroes really is great if you're looking for a fantasy game based more in Conan the Barbarian than Mary Sue the Wizard.

obnoxious
sig

Blacky the Blackball
2009-07-22, 03:27 AM
That's actually something I really like about Mutants and Masterminds

Everything is the same in terms of powers, you just flavor it with whatever you want. Whether you are using arcane powers to cast incredible spells or throwing a rock with super strength, you use almost the same rules.

Make up the most complex spell you want, and mutants and masterminds lets you turn it into a fairly easy to handle power set that everyone can understand.

MnM is a great system. Have you seen the new(ish) Warlocks and Warriors sourcebook for using the system to do Conan-style Sword-and-Sorcery campaigns?


Of course, learning the rules to make all those powers can be a little tougher.

It could be a lot worse. It could be HERO...

The_Snark
2009-07-22, 03:39 AM
It could be a lot worse. It could be HERO...

Seconded. I learned the HERO system before being introduced to Mutants and Masterminds, and found it similar but way more streamlined. I was surprised to learn that some people consider it a tricky system after that...

As for the original question: Sort of. I rarely read through any laundry list of spells (D&D's core, Exalted's book of sorcery, whatever) until I'm actually starting to make a character that uses magic. When I do that, I usually end up combing for spells that would be good for the character, or just cool in general, and because it's not just abstract rules it becomes more interesting. I suppose this would be more difficult if I were GMing, but I doubt I'd try GMing with a system I hadn't played pretty extensively.

(Also, I know you said you aren't looking for recommendations, d20 or otherwise, but I thought I'd mention that True20 has a pretty simple magic system; it's fairly similar to Saga edition Force powers in terms of how many powers there are, and how they tend to work.)

Kiero
2009-07-22, 03:46 AM
about your compain about my post about magic in the malazan empire.
I don't thjink i mad nay referncew to it being d20 (i did say standard, or move or free action, and admittedly i am designing it for d20ish, oh i said teat too)
But in any stetem (exempt those along the lines of wushu - where everything is simple. as it is naritive based).
Magic in Malazan book of the fallen is simple for any one warren, but complex when you look at the many of them.
Eg warren breaking, that havlock did, and quichben did also.

But also almost all High Mages have multiple (more than two)
Quickben: 12. but he hads soulsplice.
Tayschrenn has been identified as High Telas, Denul, Aral Gamelon, the Imperial Warren, Thyr probably Mockra, at least.

High mages and cadre mages would be the only sort considered for "hero's" = PC's
Cadre mages only have one warren - normally.

Still PC's would not all want to be in the long term a ssimple cadre mage.

But still open is the question of what a particualr warren can do esp. thyr and rashan.

then take elder racial warrens.
the tiste edur can do almost anything with edur.
incuding healing


And again, I disagree. I can do magic in FATE quite easily, all you need is an Aspect for each Warren (which means no Quick Ben style twelve Warrens) and a few Stunts around Skill substitution that your magic allows (replaces Ranged Combat for those Warrens that allow blasting, for example). Then everything is handled with the "magic" Skill and negotiation.

Warrens do the following:
1) Manipulation of its main theme
2) Blasting (not all)
3) Travelling to the Warren's realm (not all)
4) General magic sense

And that's about it.

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 04:11 AM
4) General magic sense

except denul doesn't do that.

Kiero
2009-07-22, 04:36 AM
except denul doesn't do that.

So what? So we add it to the list of exceptions like we have with others, such as Mockra not having a realm or allowing blasting. You're making a big deal out of what isn't.

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 04:50 AM
sorry that was ment to be ijn [rant] tags, fixed

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-22, 07:50 AM
Laundry List of spells?

More like shopping list for when you stop by the AWESOME STORE! (Sale on explosions today!)

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 08:20 AM
Laundry List of spells?

More like shopping list for when you stop by the AWESOME STORE! (Sale on explosions today!)
I like.
I would ask to sig that is my sig want already at character limit.
Have you seen metamagic: exploding spell?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-22, 09:32 AM
More like shopping list for when you stop by the AWESOME STORE! (Sale on explosions today!)

As someone on the WotC boards once said, "If you don't like the huge number of choices, just pick something at random; one handful out of a pile of AWESOME is still enough awesome to last you a while."

Tequila Sunrise
2009-07-22, 10:08 AM
Iron Heroes really is great if you're looking for a fantasy game based more in Conan the Barbarian than Mary Sue the Wizard.

obnoxious
sig
Am I the only one who reads Conan as Gary Stue? /tangent

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-22, 10:54 AM
Am I the only one who reads Conan as Gary Stue? /tangent

No, it's definitely spelled C-O-N-A-N. :smallbiggrin:

I think the point was that if you prefer warriors-are-gods-among-men-and-wizards-are-wimpy-crazy-cultists fantasy over wizards-are-gods-among-men-and-warriors-are-useless-baggage fantasy, Iron Heroes is a good system.

ericgrau
2009-07-22, 11:31 AM
I like the magic systems in computer adventure games, so maybe you could use that for your games. Basically magic is completely separate from character class (if even classes exist). Ya you can invade the home of a wizard with oodles and oodles of it, but nothing prevents you from taking a book from said wizard and immediately casting it yourself.

Spells are like recipes. You combine some ingredients in a certain way, say some words and <boom> magic. At least one of the ingredients is rare & fantastic, while the rest might be mundane & commonplace. So often (but not always) you can't keep casting a spell over and over again. And the effects of these spells are 100% pure plot. So as a DM you can make up any effect you feel like, throw together a recipe and a few magic words and there's your spell. And since it overcomes a plot obstacle there's often (but not always) little reason to cast it again. Spells are similar to D&D utility spells in that regard.

Combat spells are uncommon if used at all, and use a different system entirely. Usually those are at-will and require some (drainable) item to power one or more of them. But even then anyone can use them within 5 seconds of learning how and getting the item.

Aedilred
2009-07-22, 12:07 PM
I'm playing a wizard in a campaign at the moment. I haven't actually cast a spell yet, and I've found I'm no worse with the sword than any other member of the party. This is WFRP, of course, so that isn't much of a surprise. That said, I find the magic system, though not ideal, is much less fiddly than it could be (and is in some other systems, like D&D...)

Kiero
2009-07-22, 04:49 PM
I'm playing a caster that is far from weedy in NWN2 (hey, I enjoy it) on a persistent world server, and so far I have had to act as the guy who takes all the damage, even though as of right now I am only 10th level, and a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster. Built right, casters can be powerful at flinging spells, and can act as a beatstick. And this caster? He can do rogue things very nearly as well as a straight rogue.

Fun character to play in groups when other people can support him, but as of right now he doesn't have all the necessary things to be amazing at everything (IE equipment.)

As limiting as NWN2 is, his build is very flexible, which one thing I always love to have is flexibility.

Trying to play a straight caster though? Very tedious, since you have to worry about so many more things than even my multiclass wizard/rogue, because most of the time all he does is buff and bash. With throwing a few other spells here and there in sticky situations.

My favourite character in NWN2 was Ranger 23/Neverwinter Nine 5/Fighter 1/Rogue 1. I never used spells, I just stalked around the place killing things with my twin hand axes. It was especially fun slipping around the line of battle and killing the mages while they were still fiddling with all their buffing spells.

Quietus
2009-07-22, 08:46 PM
My favourite character in NWN2 was Ranger 23/Neverwinter Nine 5/Fighter 1/Rogue 1. I never used spells, I just stalked around the place killing things with my twin hand axes. It was especially fun slipping around the line of battle and killing the mages while they were still fiddling with all their buffing spells.

Sounds like the Rogue/Assassin/Shadowdancer I just finished playing in NWN. Lots of sneak attack and sneakery, with a one-level dip in Shadowdancer. Mundane invisibility + improved invisibility to get anywhere I want, then do a full attack, back off, and hide. Everything stops, looks around, and I jump forward to attack again. ANything that can be sneak attacked went down in two full attacks or less - with a couple exceptions, like Balor variations and Maugrim.

Of course, it made fighting CERTAIN enemies really freakin' annoying, 'cause if I couldn't sneak attack I was doing next to no damage.. and anything immune to sneak attack also generally had damage reduction. *Mutters about boss fights where he left his character swinging and took a shower*

Yahzi
2009-07-22, 10:27 PM
What I really appreciate is when the setting is woven into the magic.
I completely agree. For instance, Cure Minor Wounds only heals 1 pt, but it stabilizes the target. This means no woman ever dies in childbirth again. Considering childbirth was the major cause of death for young women up until the Industrial Revolution, this simple 0th level spell must necessarily change your entire society.

And don't get me started on Zone of Truth...

I wrote a campaign setting (and a novel) that tries to make sense of it all. Check out my sig if you're interested.

Kiero
2009-07-23, 02:50 AM
Sounds like the Rogue/Assassin/Shadowdancer I just finished playing in NWN. Lots of sneak attack and sneakery, with a one-level dip in Shadowdancer. Mundane invisibility + improved invisibility to get anywhere I want, then do a full attack, back off, and hide. Everything stops, looks around, and I jump forward to attack again. ANything that can be sneak attacked went down in two full attacks or less - with a couple exceptions, like Balor variations and Maugrim.

Of course, it made fighting CERTAIN enemies really freakin' annoying, 'cause if I couldn't sneak attack I was doing next to no damage.. and anything immune to sneak attack also generally had damage reduction. *Mutters about boss fights where he left his character swinging and took a shower*

That's where crafted weapons with lots of elemental damage came in. By the time I finished, they were doing 6d6 additional damage. As well as Sneak Attack damage from NWN9 and Rogue.

Quietus
2009-07-23, 02:58 AM
That's where crafted weapons with lots of elemental damage came in. By the time I finished, they were doing 6d6 additional damage. As well as Sneak Attack damage from NWN9 and Rogue.

Wow, nice... the best I could manage were the random weapons I found that had a single d6 on them. My main weapons were a +2 short sword with vampiric regeneration 3 and a +2 dagger with a d6 of cold. I also had a +2 club with acid in case it ever came up, which helped some near the end.


Of course, the balors all had DR 30 and resistance to every element... Even when I landed sneak attacks, I was rarely doing more than 4-7 damage.



I completely agree. For instance, Cure Minor Wounds only heals 1 pt, but it stabilizes the target. This means no woman ever dies in childbirth again. Considering childbirth was the major cause of death for young women up until the Industrial Revolution, this simple 0th level spell must necessarily change your entire society.

And don't get me started on Zone of Truth...

I wrote a campaign setting (and a novel) that tries to make sense of it all. Check out my sig if you're interested.

I'm toying with some of this in the setting I'm writing - at least one of the cities makes use of a permanent Zone of Truth and Detect Magic (strip target of spells to start with, send them into ZoT, use DM to see when they register as under the effect of Divination; Best lie detector ever!) to interrogate prisoners. If they refuse to be subject to the ZoT, or refuse to answer questions relating to the crime they're accused of, they're held in prison cells under the assumption they're guilty, until they cooperate. Whether the cells are better or worse than being sent out to do mandatory hard labor on state-operated farms if they're found guilty ... well, that's up to the individual to determine for themselves. The hospitality is likely to suck either way.

Kiero
2009-07-23, 03:25 AM
Wow, nice... the best I could manage were the random weapons I found that had a single d6 on them. My main weapons were a +2 short sword with vampiric regeneration 3 and a +2 dagger with a d6 of cold. I also had a +2 club with acid in case it ever came up, which helped some near the end.


Of course, the balors all had DR 30 and resistance to every element... Even when I landed sneak attacks, I was rarely doing more than 4-7 damage.

You start the game with Safiya, who can add 1d6 elemental (of each type, and you can add two to any one weapon) from the beginning. All you need to do is collect up all those essences and start combining them. Although annoyingly, she doesn't have any acid spells, so you need scrolls and Kaelyn to do that. When you've got huge bonuses from elemental damage, the weapon type becomes largely irrelevant (critical aside), which is nice in it's own way.

Kalirren
2009-07-23, 11:41 AM
For instance, Cure Minor Wounds only heals 1 pt, but it stabilizes the target. This means no woman ever dies in childbirth again. Considering childbirth was the major cause of death for young women up until the Industrial Revolution, this simple 0th level spell must necessarily change your entire society.

Are you kidding me? Giving birth is Con damage. (Of course, it means you just need lesser restoration instead, but whatever. Your point still stands.)



For one I like a much looser mechanical approach to magic. [...] Most of them rely on GM fiat, but that's fine because I'm quite comfortable with assuming that my GM isn't going to be looking to slap down everything that the players come up with. I'm also comfortable assuming that the players aren't going to behave like lawyers looking for loopholes and exploits in the rules, I don't play with people like that.


It's as I suspected, then. I think you look at magic more as a thing that a character does than a part of system language in which one can speak. I treat it similarly. It's like the difference between looking at a spellbook and seeing a dictionary, and looking at a book of magic and seeing a use for that magic.

PumpkinJack
2009-07-24, 10:02 AM
Whenever I see a new RPG, I tend to skip the magic section. I have no interest in it whatsoever. I don't want to play a mage in any game (Jedi are a possible exception), because magic tends to be fiddly and over-complicated. Not only that, mages always seem to be reliant on their magic to the exclusion of everything else; playing a weedy runt really doesn't appeal to me. Give me a character with mundane skills who smacks things with weapons any day.


I'm the exact opposite. I pretty much exclusively play magic-using characters. I have absolutely no interest in playing a meaty fighter. In fact, I prefer my wizards to be weedy runts, overweight, short or in some way physically weak. It makes their successes (when they succeed) over the brawny types that much more satisfying. I'm sure this has something to do with unresolved issues from my youth. :)

I'm not an athletic type and I've never aspired to be. I've always valued myself for my brain so I like the idea of a character class that is powerful because of how they use their brains instead of how well they can beat people up. Also, I can swing a sword in real life or shoot an arrow. I can't do real magic so doing it through a RPG allows me to experience something I can't otherwise.

Then, there's the sense of wonder you can get with magic. Turning invisible, reading people's thoughts, flying through the air, speaking with the dead--these things are just cool! It's hard to compare swinging a sword to stuff like that.

I agree that the DnD magic system can be particularly byzantine. That's why I find myself gravitating towards spontaneous casting classes like sorcerers, dread necromancers, beguilers and warlocks--much less to keep track of even if they suffer from disadvantages compared to the wizard.

oxinabox
2009-07-24, 07:33 PM
I'm the exact opposite. I pretty much exclusively play magic-using characters. I have absolutely no interest in playing a meaty fighter. In fact, I prefer my wizards to be weedy runts, overweight, short or in some way physically weak. It makes their successes (when they succeed) over the brawny types that much more satisfying. I'm sure this has something to do with unresolved issues from my youth. :)
Here to that! *raises a glass to you*