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View Full Version : Help designing a Paladin or Skillmonkey [3.5]



Capricornus
2009-07-21, 09:55 AM
Howdy, going to be playing in a new campaign soon. The DM has described as an Undead-focused game, and anticipates "mildly powergamed characters" "good at fighting undead". He's already got a summoning-focused Druid, a turning-focused Cleric, and a "Cleric with charisma as the dump stat"... assuming that means casting/melee focused... I don't know if the other players are optimizers by nature though (I'm guessing not especially, but I can't assume). He says that with three full casters they probably don't need an arcane caster... I'm not sure that's entirely true, I think it would instead be overkill. :D The game starts at level 5, and is set in the Forgotten Realms.

Anyways, what the DM thinks they need is either a tank/meleer, or a skillmonkey. Skillmonkeyness would be useful, but not in combat without some very specific items or feats. I don't relish the thought of playing a Rogue or Bard against undead. But is there a way to make that work? As for a melee type, I've considered a Paladin.

Does anyone have any resources they could point me to or advice to help me design either an effective Undead-fighting Skillmonkey (thinking search/disable device ability. No idea if social skills will be relevant. Combat effectiveness against Undead a requirement.) or an effective Undead-fighting Paladin (any info on getting the most out of a Paladin in general is also appreciated... Anyone have a link to a 3.5 Paladin guide?) I have access to almost any book, but would like to restrict myself to WotC material. Also, I am a newbie to Forgotten Realms, so be gentle with me on that. :P

Also, also, I am considering playing a Wizard despite what the DM says we need. I know how powerful they can be. I enjoy RPing them as well. Opinions on that?

Thanks for any assistance you can provide!

Cheers

AslanCross
2009-07-21, 10:15 AM
What books are allowed, and up to what level are you going?

My knee-jerk reaction is take two levels of Paladin and multiclass into Crusader from Tome of Battle. Paladin has a chunk of dead levels, while Crusader is excellent at tanking, carries the same flavor as the Paladin, and specializes in a lot of holy face-breaking. Tome of Battle classes multiclass well, since they add half the levels of other classes for the purposes of determining their own initiator level.

Paladin's Divine Grace feature is really good and too tasty to pass up. As for the mount, YMMV. Some people like it, others don't bother. PHB2 has a variant called the Charging Smite, wherein you don't get a mount but instead gain a smite that adds double your paladin level to your damage when you charge.

Fishy
2009-07-21, 10:54 AM
Check it out. Able Learner, some combination of Scout and Ranger, and the Swift Hunter feat. Decent BAB and hp, Lots of bonus damage to throw at undead, and you can randomly find and disarm traps.

woodenbandman
2009-07-21, 10:59 AM
Start as a cleric. Go into rogue for a bit. Take Shadowbane Stalker. You get:
10/10 casting, some sneak attack, and divine spells. What divine spell do you cast? Gravestrike!

Mr.Moron
2009-07-21, 11:04 AM
If you want to play a paladin, you have two options really.

Crusader (Tome of Battle). You can go straight 20 in that, with very little muss or fuss. You get the holy warrior flavor and durable + powerful character.

or ask if you can use the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) Variant.

Try to avoid taking Fighter/whatever levels to enter. With the CL losses you'll probably face going in with straight cleric is the better option, even if you wind in it later.

Take 3 levels of that, and then go off into a paladin-like Prestiege Class. Generally Ordained Champion, Bone Knight, or Fist of Raziel.

If you have access to it "Holy Mount" (Dragon Mag 325.) will allow you to keep your mount progression. If not exchange the mount for charging smite. You'll lack in paladin levels, but the bonus damage and not-used-on-miss feature always remains useful. A weak mount is nothing but a liability.



If all else fails. Just play a Cleric with the War domain & Destruction Domains, carry a big weapon and ACT like a "Paladin" and take extra smiting. Just please, stay away from the default version.

woodenbandman
2009-07-21, 11:05 AM
Oh one more thing about my last suggestion: either take Cloistered Cleric or go Archivist. Int and Wisdom are needed for an archivist AND a skillmonkey both.

Draz74
2009-07-21, 11:15 AM
Go for a Factotum. The most skill-monkeyish class around, it's also ridiculously fun to play.

Max your Knowledge (religion) skill out (and you will have a very high INT), and take the Knowledge Devotion feat at Level 3. Voila, you're going to have sweet attack/damage bonuses against undead forever. Combine with whatever other tricks you choose to make yourself a reasonably strong melee or ranged combatant. Personally, I'm a big fan of my Factotum Archer build that uses Raptor Arrows and the True Believer feat, but you don't have to go that way if you don't want. You can wield a greatsword and Power Attack, or whatever.

You can also chip in for other party members' roles wherever needed, including Turn Undead if the Clerics for some reason don't provide enough of it. Party discovers there's a Wizard spell they actually really wish they had, and they have no arcane caster? No problem, the Factotum can start using it 1/day as a spell-like ability (as long as it has no XP component and is Level 7 or lower).

Ellisande
2009-07-21, 11:18 AM
Also, also, I am considering playing a Wizard despite what the DM says we need. I know how powerful they can be. I enjoy RPing them as well. Opinions on that?


I'm hardly the optimizer, so I won't touch how to best make a Paladin/Skillmonkey, but I don't see any problem in this party with adding a arcane caster. That is to say, it would be adding something the party doesn't have... and with a druid and two clerics, I wouldn't say they're desperate for a meatshield at all. So, in my humble opinion, I wouldn't take this option off the table unless you think the DM would take it poorly.

Telonius
2009-07-21, 11:20 AM
Go Rogue and get a Truedeath crystal. A little pricey, but it lets you sneak attack the Undead.

Rhiannon87
2009-07-21, 11:34 AM
In the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft module, there's a rogue variant that allows you to do half sneak attack damage, in exchange for sacrificing your trap sense ability. Not sure if you think that's worth it, but it's something to consider.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-21, 11:50 AM
Illumian (Krau/anything) Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ anything, get two flaws for Versatile Spellcaster and any metamagic feat, take Able Learner at 1 and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler at 3. That way you can add 10/10 UM spellcasting to Wizard, you can spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher from either list, and you'll be a capable skillmonkey as well. After UM 10 I'd get one more Wizard level for Spontaneous Divination and then probably go into Master Specialist. Use your 1st level Beguiler spell slots to cast spells like Glitterdust and Web. Find an individual/organization which charges the standard 50 gp/spell level to copy Wizard spells from, learn utility spells but don't put them in your spellbook and just pretend you didn't understand the spells so you won't have to pay the fee, and you can spontaneously cast them via Beguiler/Versatile Spellcaster.

Some sort of Gish build would also be a strong choice, maybe go with the Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. Since this is FR, you could instead make a Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4 for the amazing Metamagic Effect: Persistent Spells.

Kroy
2009-07-21, 11:52 AM
Couldn't say crusader loud enough. or maybe...
CRUSADER!!!
That was loud enough.

deuxhero
2009-07-21, 11:54 AM
^ Rebalanced Paladin (homebrew, should be on Gleemax) also works pretty well.

mcl01
2009-07-21, 11:59 AM
Skillmonkey? I know he's not looking for a full spellcaster, but I have to give it to beguiler. Full spellcasting with rogueish overtones? With 6+ Skill points/level + Int as your primary casting stat, you'll be more than qualified to be a skill monkey. You don't persay need an arcane spellcaster, but having enchantment/illusion spells will complement your group well. You may not have all the tastiest wizard spells, but you do get to pick and choose a few nice enchantment/illusion spells to back you up.

Another option would be bard. Jack of All Trades + Bardic Knack basically gives you instant amount of ranks in untrained skills = to half your bard level and allows you to use them as if you have actual ranks in them. 6+ Skill Points and high CHA+UMD would probably be useful as well.

I can't remember off the top of my head, but Rogue/Scout + Hunter of the Dead (I think that's the name) might work well in this campaign.

As for a melee tank, I second Cleric/Prestige Paladin. Pretty much a normal paladin with enhanced spellcasting and slightly lower BAB. Cleric/Fist of Raziel works too. I would also like to interject with Paladin of Freedom/Bard, but that only becomes feasible at higher levels.

Animefunkmaster
2009-07-21, 12:06 PM
First, with this arrangement of allies you shouldn't have to worry about tanking, you have a summoner (who probably has augment summoning or better by now) and two clerics.

I'll just throw another thought out there, how about a skill monkey that can turn tank and still have options against undead?

Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer. Feel free to add things like abjurant champion as your heart desires.

I would take a focused specialist variant wizard (Don't drop transmutation, as per normal conjuration is great. Necromancy will help with this campaign specifically, while illusion helps with stealth and gives access to evocation walls... the choice is illusion or necromancy... or abjuration to drop. Illusion is more campaign specific but you lose invisibility, umd. Necromancy has control undead no save control mindless undead and shivering touch, touch to win against anything large with low dex. Abjuration is entirely for shield and dispel magic, and most importantly, abjurant champion prc. Choose wisely) and pick an interesting race for alter self (ancestral dwarf is especially good outsider that gives a ridiculous natural armor bonus and makes you large).

Skills + Utility spells+ the ability to tank+ possible anti undead spells (control undead + chain spell steals an enemies horde of mindless minions, no save).

Edit: The only reason I wouldn't do beguiler, or enchantment, is that undead are immune to most of your spells.

Gnaeus
2009-07-21, 12:17 PM
Play wizard or beguiler.

1. You enjoy them. You sound like you want to. So do it.

2. Cleric/Cleric/Druid/Wizard or Beguiler is an awesome party. There is no need to throw tier 5s like a paladin in with the tier 1s, unless you think the other players are really bad. With reasonably competent play, the clerics and druid can tank, battlefield control, save or die, buff, heal, and manage traps. The unseen seer is also a good suggestion.

Capricornus
2009-07-21, 12:47 PM
Thanks for the replies so far. Little more clarification from the DM. Looks like it's going to be a fairly short campaign, from level 5 up to level 10 or so. He's giving me fairly free reign too, but I'll have to run stuff by him. I've never really looked at Tome of Battle, but I'll check out the Crusader. As for Beguiler, will the illusion/enchantment spells be useful in an undead-heavy environment? I'm a fan of the Beguiler otherwise.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 12:54 PM
Thanks for the replies so far. Little more clarification from the DM. Looks like it's going to be a fairly short campaign, from level 5 up to level 10 or so. He's giving me fairly free reign too, but I'll have to run stuff by him. I've never really looked at Tome of Battle, but I'll check out the Crusader. As for Beguiler, will the illusion/enchantment spells be useful in an undead-heavy environment? I'm a fan of the Beguiler otherwise.Illusions will, Enchantments won't. Focus on the image line etc and buffs and the party will love you.

Renegade Paladin
2009-07-21, 01:03 PM
My recommendation, (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045) if you can talk your DM into it. The rebalanced paladin rebuild brings the paladin's power roughly in line with barbarian and the ToB classes, though it's still outpowered by a well-played cleric, which apparently your DM is allowing.

Gnaeus
2009-07-21, 01:23 PM
Undead are immune to mind affecting, but not illusions.

L1 Obscuring mist, Disguise self, Expeditious Retreat, some divinations

L2 Glitterdust, Blur, Mirror Image, Fog Cloud, Invisibility, Spider Climb, Knock, + divinations

L3 Arcane Sight, Displacement, Dispel Magic, Haste, Slow,

L4 Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image, Solid Fog

L5 Break Enchantment, Swift Etherealness

Rely on Glitterdust and Slow for battlefield effectiveness. Blind Slowed undead are not a threat to anyone.

Yes, the level 5 ones kind of suck, but you only get them at level 10. By level 10, you have picked up a couple of advanced learning spells, and at that point 13 ranks in UMD mean that you can use wands with good success.

For versatility, pick a prestige class that adds to your spell options. Sand Shaper (sandstorm) or Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone) would do nicely. If you have the stats for a decent wisdom, Arcane Disciple for a domain with good combat spells (fire maybe) could also be a winner, especially if you get a good wand with starting gold.

There's no reason a beguiler needs to be scared of undead if he has prepared for them.

And of course, undead heavy doesn't mean ALL undead. you can always charm other things and make THEM fight the undead.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-21, 01:27 PM
Be a Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b)

Rogue3/Swordsage2/Chameleon10/Something5

Focus on Wisdom and Int, good Con, average Str, Dex, and Cha.

Pick up Intuitive Strike, memorize Gravestrike as a Chamelon spell, choose Craven as a feat, and you're good to go.

mcl01
2009-07-21, 01:56 PM
You also do have access to a few sorc/wiz illusion/enchantment spells from Advanced learning to find some more useful spells for undead. If that doesn't give you enough, you can see if your DM will allow a relatively broader definition of Extra Spell to perhaps give you another Advanced Learning since you already know all Beguiler spells automatically (or if he's crazy, any spell at all :smallsmile:).

Also, unless I'm mistaken, there are a few enchantment spells you can pick that affect undead. I believe Treantmonk has a list of these on the WotC 3.5e char op boards.

As said earlier, you do have UMD as a class skill. If you go for a social beguiler with high CHA and grab a circlet of persuasion, you gain access to quite a few other spells too. Another option would be getting 13-15 wisdom and using Arcane Disciple to add a few more spells to your list.

AslanCross
2009-07-21, 06:13 PM
Thanks for the replies so far. Little more clarification from the DM. Looks like it's going to be a fairly short campaign, from level 5 up to level 10 or so. He's giving me fairly free reign too, but I'll have to run stuff by him. I've never really looked at Tome of Battle, but I'll check out the Crusader. As for Beguiler, will the illusion/enchantment spells be useful in an undead-heavy environment? I'm a fan of the Beguiler otherwise.

Undead are immune to Mind-affecting spells. Most of the Beguiler's spells, both Enchantment and Illusion, are Mind-Affecting. You do have some spells at your disposal that will work, such as Glitterdust and Legion of Sentinels, among others. You're definitely going to have a hard time fooling something that shambles along randomly going "braaaaaaaains...", for the most part.

Glamers and Figments, however, are not mind-affecting and will work fine against undead.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-21, 06:31 PM
Well, Paladin and Skillmonkey are generally mutually exclusive.

Crusader has been mentioned several times as a good alternative to Paladin. It is, although a two-level dip to get Charisma to ALL saves is nice. If you want to go four levels so you get Turn Undead, you can use it to power several options. Pal4/Crusader16 is an entirely viable build, moreso because that gives you IL 3 on your first level of Crusader, which nets you immediate access to 2nd level maneuvers.

For a Skillmonkey, you've got a lot of options:

Rogue/Cloistered Cleric with appropriate domains can do very well as a skillmonkey and still be very effective against undead. Gravestrike is, of course, a divine spell.

There's the ever-popular Scout4/Ranger16 Swift Hunter build with Improved Manyshot and favored enemy: undead to be able to deal precision-based damage to undead. Not only are you a skillmonkey, but you are one which can dish out respectable damage at range. The melee version is TWF with a dip in Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce to activate your Skirmish.

Beguiler... has problems in an undead-only environment, as most of their best stuff is Mind-Affecting. I forget if they get decent buffing, but you'd probably be better off as a Rogue with UMD and toys in an undead-heavy campaign.

There was the 'pouncing ripper' build I had, with Rogue/Swordsage/Bloodclaw Master/bunch of other dips for increasing SA. Basically, two levels of swordsage to gain Island of Blades, Assassin's Stance, and Pouncing Strike. Also nets you Shadow Blade so you can let Strength be a dump-stat. With a pair of Truedeath Crystals, you'll be able to freely sneak attack undead, although the original build was more flexable by having Gravestrike, Golemstrike, and Vinestrike wands.

Of course, you could go the other direction, and go Rogue1/Swordsage xx/whatever, with Able Learner to retain Open Locks and Disable Device as class skills. Then you've got a kickass tank, going heavy into Setting Sun to provide 'no' buttons in melee, tiger claw and desert wind for damage output, stone dragon for more protection, and some shadow hand for maneuverability.

Capricornus
2009-07-22, 09:22 PM
Okay, my DM has approved the "Rebalanced Paladin" and has tentatively okayed Crusader. So, I've been looking at Paladin 2/Crusader 3 to start, but with the redundancy of 1st level maneuvers, have looked also at Paladin 4/Crusader 1 to start with 2nd level maneuvers. Also, considering taking Extra Smiting to increase my smiting, and noticed that +cha to attack is nice, but +Paladin level to damage is a little anemic if I only take the 2 levels of Paladin. Also, do smites and maneuvers play well together? i.e. can I smite and Foehammer on the same action?

oxinabox
2009-07-23, 12:23 AM
Well normally i'ld say, god a factoum, NO!
But inthis case , since you lack a arcane caster, and a skill monley.

Well the cha dump cleric can tank some.

A factotum can do anything.
but not great at combat.
Maybe take 4 lvls of factotum then a lvl of ToB, proably warblade (haven't properly checkout crusaider), for the BaB, and HD, and well ToBness.
then back on the factotum, maybe.

Factotum.
can heal, can get extra attacks, can cast acrane, can turn undead, can do all skills, cna buff his own skills right up.
Factotum is well like a ooze, it fills any gaps.