Elven biology?

[Raphite1]

In comic 624 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), we learn that V was researching on his island for at least four days. Over the next several comics, it becomes clear that the island is only a few paces wide, and bears no visible vegetation or other life. There is also no sign of a source of fresh water.

Are elves able to continue to work for days at a time with no food or (especially) water? Rich doesn't normally draw the OOTS with the backpacks that they must have for carrying supplies, but if V's survivability were similar to that of a human, he would have had to bring such a large quantity of fresh water that I wonder if he could even carry it during flight. Also, 624 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) indicates that V was still urinating after being on the island for at least three days, which must mean that he either had water available during this time, or that elven biological processes produce urine even days after the last fluids were consumed.

So, elf experts, what are the facts?

[Thrax]

He's a wizard. He could have conjured the fresh water, but the fact stands that you're way overanalyzing that.

[King of Nowhere]

Well, back around strip 90 V said that hir noble elven metabolism only need to use the bathroom every few weeks, so it stands to reason that elves needs much less food that humans.
However, there are plenty of ways to make food and water with spells, and I find the idea that V was relying on those to be much better.

[grautry]

He's in the middle of an ocean. Oceans contain fish.

As for water? For all we know, he has a Decanter of Endless Water. It's not an uncommon item to have in D&D.

Additionally, food/water creation spells are either cantrips or very low on Cleric/Druid spell lists. He's been researching new magic for some time, it's not a stretch to imagine that he could've created arcane versions of those.


He's a wizard. He could have conjured the fresh water, but the fact stands that you're way overanalyzing that.

V barred Conjuration. :smallwink:

[Raphite1]

I never played D&D, but this "Decanter of Endless Water" arouses my curiosity! Is it equally common to have a "Flask of Endless Whiskey?" If so, I'm going to wish REALLY hard and hope that I can pull off a MitD.

[Croverus]

Ring of Sustenance...

And DONE.

That one simple item, a mere 1200 gp, must be worn for a week to attune it. After said week the wearer no longer needs to eat or drink, as the ring magically keep their body nourished. They also require only 2 hours of sleep, or meditation. However, it isn't a sure substitute for real nutrients and sleep. It will allow you to survive, but your body will suffer from the lack of real sleep and nutrients in that you will LOOK tired. The effects are purely aesthetic, have no game-term changes, but as a DM I have had players that use these rings and never eat real food take penalties to social rolls even they haven't had any nutrients in a long time.

That being said, if you eat and drink and sleep regularly while wearing the ring, it has no effects on you. It will simply make up for any lack of food or water, so you won't get hungry or thirsty or too tired.

V could reasonably have such an item, yes?

[Scarlet Knight]

:vaarsuvius: is half- camel.

[Kish]

But what's the ECL on a half-camel?

[Aldrakan]

Ring of Sustenance...

And DONE.

I've always been surprised that item's so easy to get. I'd expect it to be all over the place. Anyone with a busy job would want it, elite soldiers should be provided with them - an army marches on it's stomach or, in this case, on it's ring finger.

[Bibliomancer]

A similiar item that doesn't take yup a body slot is a clear ioun stone, which is only a few thousand gp.

To my knowledge, no "decanter of endless whiskey" has been included in any rulebooks, probably due to the writers being afraid of inevitables of sobriety.

[Croverus]

There is an item that can automatically be filled with any nonmagical substance that is in a naturally liquid form, such as water, any brews, even ogres piss. It's referenced in GoblinsComic.

[Bibliomancer]

There is probably also a variant use of the Autohypnosis skill that lets you suppress your body's need for sustenance temporarily, given that the skill lets you do almost everything else as well. Eg: autostabilize with a DC 15 or 20 check.

[Porthos]

V has watched episodes of Survivorman and so he set up Rain Catches and the like. :smallcool:

[angharrad]

Maybe they metabolize very slowly? They don't need a lot of sleep, either...

[Atilla]

Let's see - long life, slow maturity, no need of sleep, questionable need for food and water on daily basis, rare toilet and coffee breaks. Yeah, I'd just go for the slow metabolism thing.

Face it - elves are the new camels/elephants/weird MS animal abomination :)

[Zherog]

Ring of Sustenance...

And DONE.

That one simple item, a mere 1200 gp, must be worn for a week to attune it. After said week the wearer no longer needs to eat or drink, as the ring magically keep their body nourished. They also require only 2 hours of sleep, or meditation. However, it isn't a sure substitute for real nutrients and sleep. It will allow you to survive, but your body will suffer from the lack of real sleep and nutrients in that you will LOOK tired. The effects are purely aesthetic, have no game-term changes, but as a DM I have had players that use these rings and never eat real food take penalties to social rolls even they haven't had any nutrients in a long time.

The ring costs 2500 gp, not 1200. And to the best of my knowledge, the underlined part isn't in the ring's description. It's certainly not in the SRD.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

V has no mere Bag of Holding? He has the Ultimate in Arcane Storrage. He is a Master of Hammerspace. Where else do you think he kept all those books and potions?

[DnDgeek13]

He's a wizard. He could have conjured the fresh water, but the fact stands that you're way overanalyzing that.

conjuration is a barred school for V

[Ozymandias9]

The ring costs 2500 gp, not 1200. And to the best of my knowledge, the underlined part isn't in the ring's description. It's certainly not in the SRD.

Its not in the 3.5 DMG description, but it might be in the Magic Item Compendium. I don't have it handy to check.

I also didn't check against the 3rd DMG, so the difference might be something that was changed in the revision.

[teratorn]

if V's survivability were similar to that of a human, he would have had to bring such a large quantity of fresh water that I wonder if he could even carry it during flight.

The daily water intake is about 3.7 litres for adult men, 2.7 litres for adult women. V should be able to fly carrying heavy armour... don't see a problem here (even forgetting things like bags of holding and magical items).

[Thanatosia]

conjuration is a barred school for V
Oooo... good point! It would have to be a magic item then.

[Snake-Aes]

I've always been surprised that item's so easy to get. I'd expect it to be all over the place. Anyone with a busy job would want it, elite soldiers should be provided with them - an army marches on it's stomach or, in this case, on it's ring finger.

1200 GPs is a LOT. with 1 gp a peasant can start his own business and survive from it the rest of his life!

Splint mail, a spear, a large shield and a long sword, together, cost roughly 236 gps. The cost of a single ring could supply 5 soldiers with their full combat gear!
And no, the food won't cost more than multiplying the army equipment's cost by 5. Rations for a warrior doesn't even cost 2 silver pieces per day.

[Lupy]

Yeah, but not having to sleep? 100 soldiers with those could win a war!

[Kish]

Yeah, but not having to sleep? 100 soldiers with those could win a war!
Pretty sure there are more efficient ways to win a war, given the ability to choose 120,000 GP worth of magical items and the lack of any corresponding (or simply better) ability in your enemy.

[Lupy]

Pretty sure there are more efficient ways to win a war, given the ability to choose 120,000 GP worth of magical items and the lack of any corresponding (or simply better) ability in your enemy.

I don't play 3.x, but I was given to understand this was a low level item, given its price, and thus Kingdoms would actually be able to get their hands on them and use them. They also don't need an arcane caster for their use; and Wizards make poor soldiers.

[Kish]

and Wizards make poor soldiers.
Of all the large-scale battles I've read about in D&D worlds, they've always incorporated arcane spellcaster units as a matter of course--such that if one army didn't bring spellcasters, that army would probably lose just from that, unless it outnumbered the other army 10 to 1 or something similar (and even then, the casualties would be appalling).

[Aldrakan]

Well there are other costs to feeding an army than the price of the food. You have to get carts to bring it in, you have to maintain supply lines and allocate soldiers to keep them guarded, you can't go anywhere that isn't secured enough to have the lines. And you have to keep doing it.
Keeping an army fed is a massive expenditure of effort, coordination, and expense.
(Well you can have the soldiers eat off the land like Napoleon did, but that's not exactly reliable, makes fighting in winter a lot more difficult, and will probably make everyone in the areas you go through hate you.)

Although I think it's easier to get a ton of low-level items than a few high level ones simply because there are so many more people who can make them, it probably would be impractical to equip an entire army with them. But they should be a favorite among elite soldiers, skirmishers, and scouts, who suddenly get another six hours of operation a day and never have to worry finding food.

[Acero]

invisible storage space bags. haley has hundreds of them, y wouldn't V?:smallbiggrin:

[[TS] Shadow]

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=984
That should answer your question.

[Larkspur]

Assuming you had one spellcaster who could Teleport, couldn't you just give them a zillion Bags of Holding and have them Teleport back and forth from your supply depot? You wouldn't have to worry about your supply lines in any traditional sense.

[Aldrakan]

Assuming you had one spellcaster who could Teleport, couldn't you just give them a zillion Bags of Holding and have them Teleport back and forth from your supply depot? You wouldn't have to worry about your supply lines in any traditional sense.

You could, although it relies on having tons of bags of holding and a spellcaster who's willing to spend their whole time casting teleport. You also have to actually have the food available, which isn't always the case.
And it's a fragile system - I'd assume killing him would be a pretty high priority. And the more spread out your forces are the less effective it is. And you don't get the reduced sleep time, which would be pretty useful in a war situation.
Also teleport becomes less reliable the less familiar you are with where you're going.
That's leaving out any actions enemy mages can make, because I don't know what they are. I assume any campaign that integrates spellcasting into warfare would have some, and I think items are a lot harder to disrupt than spells.

It does have advantages over the rings and it's probably what you want to use for the main army if possible, but the rings have their own benefits and are more self contained. Both probably have their place.

[Larkspur]

You'd probably want to give rings to your scouts and so on so you wouldn't have to supply them.

But Bags of Holding are cheaper than wagons + oxen or whatever you'd be using to haul your food normally, and one mage has got to be easier to defend than an entire supply convoy. Especially since s/he'd always be in the middle of one of your camps, either the one on the front or the supply depot.

Of course, if the enemy cast Cloister you're in trouble...

[Snake-Aes]

You'd probably want to give rings to your scouts and so on so you wouldn't have to supply them.

But Bags of Holding are cheaper than wagons + oxen or whatever you'd be using to haul your food normally, and one mage has got to be easier to defend than an entire supply convoy. Especially since s/he'd always be in the middle of one of your camps, either the one on the front or the supply depot.

Of course, if the enemy cast Cloister you're in trouble...

The thing is...they aren't.Gold is expensive. Stuff that costs gold is rare. Being an adventurer tricks players into thinking stuff like "that dumb +2 sword" are trash. They are lifetime treasures. Putting up with expensive stuff is almost never a good idea.

[Rotipher]

Over the next several comics, it becomes clear that the island is only a few paces wide, and bears no visible vegetation or other life. There is also no sign of a source of fresh water.

We only saw one side of the island. For all we know, there could be a freshwater spring, a grove of fruit trees, and a five-star bistro on the other side of the hill.

[David Argall]

But Bags of Holding are cheaper than wagons + oxen or whatever you'd be using to haul your food normally, and one mage has got to be easier to defend than an entire supply convoy. Especially since s/he'd always be in the middle of one of your camps, either the one on the front or the supply depot.



Wagon-35 gp
heavy horse[2]-400 gp, can pull about 5500 lbs cargo.
Lg. bag holding-10,000 gp, can hold 1500 lbs.

So you can carry approaching 100x as much by using wagons.

Our bag of holding is great for supplying a fortress under siege or on top of some impossible mountain, but for most routine purposes, it is was too expensive.

[AceOfFools]

I don't play 3.x, but I was given to understand this was a low level item, given its price, and thus Kingdoms would actually be able to get their hands on them and use them. They also don't need an arcane caster for their use; and Wizards make poor soldiers.

One thing that always bothered me about the whole "cheap magic rings" thing:
in order to make any magic rings you have to be 12th level or higher. So while cheap to make, it would still be difficult to obtain.

On the whole, there is no realistic way to have the magic item economy work as assumed by the rules.

[Snake-Aes]

One thing that always bothered me about the whole "cheap magic rings" thing:
in order to make any magic rings you have to be 12th level or higher. So while cheap to make, it would still be difficult to obtain.

On the whole, there is no realistic way to have the magic item economy work as assumed by the rules.

There is that too. If you assume that for each level, the next level has half as many adventurers, there are only 1 12 level adventurer for every 256 adventurers. Then you have to filter off all non-casters ...
And then those who can't craft wondrous items...
And then measure the costs ...

[Porthos]

There is that too. If you assume that for each level, the next level has half as many adventurers, there are only 1 12 level adventurer for every 256 adventurers. Then you have to filter off all non-casters ...
And then those who can't craft wondrous items...
And then measure the costs ...

<I'm going to hate myself for saying this but....>

Nah... You just need a Wizard or Cleric who can Plane Shift/Travel The Planes. Just have him or her hop to a random city in an Inner/Outer Plane, walk through a Portal to Sigil and go shopping to your hearts content.

Done.

Heck, have a wizard/cleric find research a portal that directly links your Home Prime to Sigil (it ain't called "The City of Doors" for nothing) and cut out the middle step. :smalltongue:

</I'm going to hate myself for saying this but....>
.
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???

Why are you looking at me that way?

Hey, I gots to let out my inner munchkin once in a while. :smalltongue:

[Larkspur]

Wagon-35 gp
heavy horse[2]-400 gp, can pull about 5500 lbs cargo.
Lg. bag holding-10,000 gp, can hold 1500 lbs.

So you can carry approaching 100x as much by using wagons.

Our bag of holding is great for supplying a fortress under siege or on top of some impossible mountain, but for most routine purposes, it is was too expensive.

But the horse/wagon combo needs many days to journey the length of the supply line. It has to be guarded by people who will need mounts, food and weapons of their own. It can get stuck in the mud or cut off from your encampment. The horses will need to be fed grain, because if they're pulling a wagon all day they don't have time to graze, which means that some of their cargo space is wasted on their own fodder (and fodder for the guards' mounts).

The cost of maintaining a traditional supply line doesn't lie in the purchase price, it lies in the expense and risk of the journey. Whereas the whole maintenance cost on a Bag of Holding supply line is two spell slots of one high level caster daily. (If they used four slots, they could go back and forth twice a day. 2 BoH x 2 trips = more storage capacity than a wagon). It's true that the initial investment is much higher, but it would quickly be offset.

And it's not like a state treasury doesn't have a lot of gp to invest. Bags of Holding may be too expensive for a peasant, but they're affordable for anyone who can afford to put an army in the field.

[Ozymandias9]

And it's not like a state treasury doesn't have a lot of gp to invest. Bags of Holding may be too expensive for a peasant, but they're affordable for anyone who can afford to put an army in the field.

Yes, but if you're trying to keep the economics of magic items self-consistent with the costs of their creation, you have to note that they're not easy to come by. People with PC classes are rare, with the possible exception of people with a level or two in a racial favored class: casters make up only a portion thereof. Then you have to limit it to the ones that have craft wondrous item. Then you have to limit it to the ones who are willing to burn XP, a reasonable measure of their personal power, for monetary purposes. Then you reach the question of how often: the wizard who is willing to make a couple magic items because he needs to fund next month's research isn't necessarily willing to make as he can pump out till he no longer meets the requirements of their creation. Even the ones who have decided to make a living purely by pumping out magic items (or perhaps in advancing the skill base in their crafting) still face severe limits on the time, XP, gold, and resources necessary to craft them.

"But Ozy9", you say, "shouldn't the extreme scarcity you're proposing dictate that the prices of magical items fluctuate vastly? That can't be the case: we have a list of set prices." Then I applaud you for a basic understanding of economics, but the answer is still no. Such an effect would only propagate if there weren't a stable economy with viable, mundane substitutes or if demand for magic items was disproportionately high relative to supply. The fact that there are Ox and Carts available means that they will limit the marginal value of a Bag of Holding. The fact that a rare item would expect to go for a certain amount at market, does not necessarily mean that there are any available on the market.

[UltimatheChosen]

Assuming you had one spellcaster who could Teleport, couldn't you just give them a zillion Bags of Holding and have them Teleport back and forth from your supply depot? You wouldn't have to worry about your supply lines in any traditional sense.
Bags of holding are somewhat heavy, and there's a weight limit on Teleport, if I remember correctly.

[Zherog]

Bags of holding are somewhat heavy, and there's a weight limit on Teleport, if I remember correctly.


This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels.

It's a 5th level spell, so a 9th level wizard or a 9th level cleric with the Travel domain could cast it. That caster could bring along three lackeys. Each of the four can carry their max load in stuff.




Bag Weight Content weight Contents volume Price
Type IV 60 lb. 1,500 lb. 250 cu. ft 10,000 gp

So the largest bag weighs 60 pounds, which means a character with a Strength score as low as 6 could carry one bag.

[Kish]

So the largest bag weighs 60 pounds, which means a character with a Strength score as low as 6 could carry one bag.
And a zillion would weigh 60 zillion, meaning that a character would need a Strength score of 10 vermillion to carry that many. :smalleek:

[Optimystik]

And a zillion would weigh 60 zillion, meaning that a character would need a Strength score of 10 vermillion to carry that many. :smalleek:

What if it's made out of bilver? :smallconfused: