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Shinizak
2009-07-21, 02:57 PM
Just what the title says. is it possible for something like a paladin or a fighter to get a 21+ BAb before level 20?

Indon
2009-07-21, 03:00 PM
To the best of my knowledge, base attack bonus is just that - base.

Even if you had a DM that allowed epic feats, and you took the feat that granted you additional attack bonus, it wouldn't count as BAB, you wouldn't get additional iterative attacks.

Douglas
2009-07-21, 03:00 PM
No. There is exactly one way I know of to increase BAB above character level, and that is to have a friendly Kensai donate some of his BAB for you. This is temporary (only lasts an hour, I think), and requires a fairly high level ally with a specific PrC who is willing to trash his own attack bonus to help you.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-21, 03:02 PM
Cleric with Divine Power, DMM Persist, and the feat Reserves of Strength.

Shinizak
2009-07-21, 03:02 PM
So it's possible to achieve pre-epic, epic casting; but it's not possible to achieve a higher BAb?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 03:03 PM
No. There is exactly one way I know of to increase BAB above character level, and that is to have a friendly Kensai donate some of his BAB for you. This is temporary (only lasts an hour, I think), and requires a fairly high level ally with a specific PrC who is willing to trash his own attack bonus to help you.Rogue/Kensai with(I can't believe I'm saying this) a UMD'd wand of Divine Power. Now you get 40 BAB, and he's still rocking 20.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-21, 03:04 PM
So it's possible to achieve pre-epic, epic casting; but it's not possible to achieve a higher BAb?

Look at the post right above of yours.

Indon
2009-07-21, 03:04 PM
Cleric with Divine Power, DMM Persist, and the feat Reserves of Strength.

Unfortunately, no (I looked that up for the dakka thread).

Divine Power makes your BAB equal to your character level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm), not your caster level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 03:05 PM
Cleric with Divine Power, DMM Persist, and the feat Reserves of Strength.Divine Power is based off of HD, not CL. Doesn't work. :smallfrown:
So it's possible to achieve pre-epic, epic casting; but it's not possible to achieve a higher BAb? Nope. You can get 21+ caster level, but Epic Spells require an Epic feat and 24 ranks in 2 skills.

Shinizak
2009-07-21, 03:08 PM
Divine Power is based off of HD, not CL. Doesn't work. :smallfrown:Nope. You can get 21+ caster level, but Epic Spells require an Epic feat and 24 ranks in 2 skills.

you know what I mean.

:smalltongue:

jmbrown
2009-07-21, 03:15 PM
There's a feat in a campaign setting I can't recall that gives you a permanent +1 BAB but you have to burn two feats; one is the prerequisite to join some guild and the other is to get the feat itself.

Like I said, I can't recall the source material but I do know it's published and 3.5.

woodenbandman
2009-07-21, 05:24 PM
Cleric with Divine Power, DMM Persist, and the feat Reserves of Strength.

Divine power references your character level. Might work if you use that bard song with temporary HD granting.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-21, 06:48 PM
Being under the effects of a Bard's Inspire Greatness when you cast Divine Power would do it.

jmbrown
2009-07-21, 06:57 PM
Divine power only targets yourself so unless there's a divine caster out there that gets full BAB...

Point is, I think the designers were real careful to ensure nobody got that 5th attack until 21st level.

NEO|Phyte
2009-07-21, 07:06 PM
Divine power only targets yourself so unless there's a divine caster out there that gets full BAB...

Point is, I think the designers were real careful to ensure nobody got that 5th attack until 21st level.
There's a Sidebar in the DMG, in the Epic session, that goes into WHY BAB is capped at 4 attacks, IIRC, it involves not having combat get bogged down.

:edit: page 207.
"Behind the curtain: a limit to attacks and saves"

jmbrown
2009-07-21, 07:07 PM
Combat gets bogged down enough at 20th level but I'm not complaining about the decision.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-21, 08:07 PM
So, the only methods so far are either Kensai ally or Divine Power with some way to boost HD. Annoying.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-21, 08:27 PM
Hmmm...How broken would these feats be?



Attack Expert [General]

Prerequisites
Five levels in classes that have a full attack progression.

Benefit
Your base attack bonus increases +1.

Special
You cannot take this feat more than once.



Attack Master [General]

Prerequisites
Attack Expert and nine levels in classes that have a full attack progression.

Benefit
Your base attack bonus increases +1.

Special
You cannot take this feat more than once.



Attack Grandmaster [General]

Prerequisites
Attack Master and twelve levels in classes that have a full attack progression.

Benefit
Your base attack bonus increases +1.

Special
You cannot take this feat more than once.

Salt_Crow
2009-07-21, 08:40 PM
Hmmm...How broken would these feats be?



Attack Expert [General]

Prerequisites
Five levels in classes that have a full attack progression.

Benefit
Your base attack bonus increases +1.

Special
You cannot take this feat more than once.



Attack Master [General]

Prerequisites
Attack Expert and nine levels in classes that have a full attack progression.

Benefit
Your base attack bonus increases +1.

Special
You cannot take this feat more than once.



Attack Grandmaster [General]

Prerequisites
Attack Master and twelve levels in classes that have a full attack progression.

Benefit
Your base attack bonus increases +1.

Special
You cannot take this feat more than once.

Not only broken, but also quite pointless after certain points. A Weapon Focus feat gives +1 to Attack Rolls only with a specific weapon. Also, you don't need to specify "you can't take it more than once" because all feats can only be taken once unless it states otherwise. If the feat were to grant +1 bonus to BAB, I'd say it would look like this:

[Insert Feat name here] [Fighter]
Prerequisites
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Greater Weapon Specialisation, Fighter level 10th

Benefit
Your base attack bonus permanently increases by 1. This does not grant 5th attack even if your BAB would otherwise indicate, as per DMG 207.

Emy
2009-07-21, 08:44 PM
Fusion?

(characterlimit)

Tohron
2009-07-21, 08:49 PM
There is a build that allows a dragonwrought kobold to get racial substitution levels before he's supposed to and thus get a higher BAB (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4804.0) but it's so abusive that it shouldn't really see use in an actual game.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-21, 08:58 PM
Not only broken, but also quite pointless after certain points.

But the point was a thought exercise to see how worthwhile this was since at least one poster desired such.



A Weapon Focus feat gives +1 to Attack Rolls only with a specific weapon.

And it's a debatable benefit (in and of itself).



Also, you don't need to specify "you can't take it more than once" because all feats can only be taken once unless it states otherwise.

I just wanted to make sure, you know...



If the feat were to grant +1 bonus to BAB, I'd say it would look like this:

[Insert Feat name here] [Fighter]
Prerequisites
Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Greater Weapon Specialisation, Fighter level 10th

Benefit
Your base attack bonus permanently increases by 1. This does not grant 5th attack even if your BAB would otherwise indicate, as per DMG 207.
Thank you Captain Obvious but an increase in BAB after 20 does not grant more than 4 attacks as stated in DMG 207.

Now let's compare (for a straight fighter)


Level Attack w/"Attack Mastery" feats
1 1 1
2 2 2
3 3 3
4 4 4
5 5 6/1
6 6/1 7/2
7 7/2 8/3
8 8/3 9/4
9 9/4 11/6/1
10 10/5 12/7/2
11 11/6/1 13/8/3
12 12/7/2 15/10/5
13 13/8/3 16/11/6/1
14 14/9/4 17/12/7/2
15 15/10/5 18/13/8/3
16 16/11/6/1 19/14/9/4
17 17/12/7/2 20/15/10/5
18 18/13/8/3 21/16/11/6
19 19/14/9/4 22/17/12/7
20 20/15/10/5 23/18/13/8
It's good, no doubt. But too good? Not sure.

Now a 10th level fighter with Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, and Greater Weapon Specialisation has a base BAB of 10/5 and with your feat would have a BAB of 11/6/1.

So basically it's just the same as the first feat I proposed, just more restrictive (you only get the BAB gain once if you are a fighter of at least level 10 and with certain feats).

So now that we now what we're selling, the question, like I said, is the price.

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-21, 09:22 PM
Point is, I think the designers were real careful to ensure nobody got that 5th attack until 21st level.

You don't normally get 5 attacks at 21st level.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-21, 10:05 PM
You don't normally get 5 attacks at 21st level.

The point that I think was trying to be made is that if one achieves a +21 BAB at or before Level 20, that character would technically have a 5th attack.

Epic characters do not gain iterative attacks with Epic BAB progression, but what if it isn't Epic yet?

Douglas
2009-07-21, 10:15 PM
The Epic Level Handbook specifically addressed that. Because racial hit dice ignore the epic attack bonus and saves rules, there are some monsters that have BAB above 20. They still don't get a 5th iterative attack, as iteratives are explicitly capped at 4 no matter what your BAB is.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-21, 10:15 PM
The point that I think was trying to be made is that if one achieves a +21 BAB at or before Level 20, that character would technically have a 5th attack.

Epic characters do not gain iterative attacks with Epic BAB progression, but what if it isn't Epic yet?

If you can't do it at epic levels how can you do it before? Besides, as quoted before, and as it says in the DMG, the cap of 4 iterative attacks is arbitrary and is done for "game play issues". To drive the point home, monster BAB from HD is not capped at 20 but iterative attacks from the BAB for the monster are capped at 4.

Tokiko Mima
2009-07-22, 02:00 AM
You could do this with a Master of the Unseen Hand and piling on the Caster level for your telekinesis spell. Unlike Divine Power, a Master of the Unseen Hand bases their combat maneuver attack bonus on easy to raise caster level, not hit dice. Even more scary, add in some Arcane Thesis cheese along with Chain Spell to animate a number of weapons equal to your caster level, all full attacking as a standard action with your CL + Casting Mod. And then all moving 20' in the same round as your move action.

For bonus fun, don't forget what joy Greater Magic Weapon brings when it's Chained by someone with an artificially high caster level. And keep the Extraordinary Concentration feat in mind, because it lets you make one telekinesis spell last all day if you can make the Concentration DC.

Quietus
2009-07-22, 05:12 AM
The point that I think was trying to be made is that if one achieves a +21 BAB at or before Level 20, that character would technically have a 5th attack.

Epic characters do not gain iterative attacks with Epic BAB progression, but what if it isn't Epic yet?

Epic characters don't gain iterative attacks with Epic BAB, because you don't GET Epic BAB. You instead gain an "Epic attack bonus" of (level-20)/2. Of course, DMG, 207, etc. No fifth attacks. It's one more than four, that's one too many! :smallyuk:



There is a build that allows a dragonwrought kobold to get racial substitution levels before he's supposed to and thus get a higher BAB (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4804.0) but it's so abusive that it shouldn't really see use in an actual game.

Beyond being stupid, that trick doesn't work. In order to take a sub level, you have to be able to give up something you get at that level. Essentially, the way they're wording it, Dragonblood subtype lets you give up a spell level 4 cleric spell slot for benefit <x> at cleric level 1, even if it's a cleric7 option (Note I don't have any idea what the actual sub level gives/gives up; I'm just giving an example). However, in order to do that, you have to HAVE a level 4 spell slot to give up - which the sub level does not give you, therefore you can't get the sub level.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-22, 08:15 AM
Beyond being stupid, that trick doesn't work. In order to take a sub level, you have to be able to give up something you get at that level.

Actually, it never explicitly states that anywhere that I know of--common sense, I know, but we are talking about WotC here. I know there are at least 4 sub levels where the benefits gained and the ability lost are 3 or 4 levels apart (or more), so the sub level in question isn't a typo or unique problem.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-22, 08:23 AM
You could do this with a Master of the Unseen Hand and piling on the Caster level for your telekinesis spell. Unlike Divine Power, a Master of the Unseen Hand bases their combat maneuver attack bonus on easy to raise caster level, not hit dice.
Just as with nontelekinetic attacks, the master of the unseen hand gains an additional attack for every 5 points of base attack bonus above +1 (using caster level for base attack bonus as described in the telekinesis spell description). As there are no rules claiming more than 4 attacks with higher than 20 BAB, the MotUH's attacks are limited "just as with nontelekinetic attacks".

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-22, 09:39 AM
As there are no rules claiming more than 4 attacks with higher than 20 BAB, the MotUH's attacks are limited "just as with nontelekinetic attacks".

I think he was referring to the attack bonus, not number of attacks, since he contrasts it with divine power.

Quietus
2009-07-22, 11:56 AM
As there are no rules claiming more than 4 attacks with higher than 20 BAB, the MotUH's attacks are limited "just as with nontelekinetic attacks".

I believe others in this thread have said something along the lines of "DMG, page 207, no more than four iterative attacks".

Kylarra
2009-07-22, 12:07 PM
Technically, SRD just says you gain extra attacks at certain BAB points, not that every 5 points of BAB you gain an extra attack. :smalltongue:


Base Attack Bonus

A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm

Curmudgeon
2009-07-22, 02:05 PM
I believe others in this thread have said something along the lines of "DMG, page 207, no more than four iterative attacks". Exactly. Since it had already been said, I only indicated the part of the MotUH's class feature which referred back to that usual rule.

herrhauptmann
2009-07-22, 02:32 PM
As a side question (I browsed FAQ, but didn't see this):

Say you have a character with medium BAB at level 20. Say plain rogue 20. His attacks will be 15/15/5.
What happens after he takes 2 epic levels to get that epic attack progression [(level-20)/2] of +1. He now attacks with a 16/11/6, but is he still denied that 4th attack with a bonus of +1?

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, I've never actually gotten to play in an epic game, or even a game past 17th level, so I'm a little iffy on some things.

kc0bbq
2009-07-22, 02:35 PM
What happens after he takes 2 epic levels to get that epic attack progression [(level-20)/2] of +1. He now attacks with a 16/11/6, but is he still denied that 4th attack with a bonus of +1?The epic bonus is treated as BAB for everything except additional attacks.

Krrth
2009-07-22, 02:37 PM
As a side question (I browsed FAQ, but didn't see this):

Say you have a character with medium BAB at level 20. Say plain rogue 20. His attacks will be 15/15/5.
What happens after he takes 2 epic levels to get that epic attack progression [(level-20)/2] of +1. He now attacks with a 16/11/6, but is he still denied that 4th attack with a bonus of +1?

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, I've never actually gotten to play in an epic game, or even a game past 17th level, so I'm a little iffy on some things.

Yes. Epic attack progression does not add to BaB.


what? Ninja? Where? I don't see any ...*erk*.

Darrin
2009-07-22, 04:48 PM
So, the only methods so far are either Kensai ally or Divine Power with some way to boost HD. Annoying.

There may be another way, but I'm having trouble nailing down the specifics.

If you shapechange into something with the Feed (Su) ability, you can gain HD by eating humanoids. The Barghest is best known for this ability, but both it and the Greater Barghest have a HD cap. However, there are some other creatures that don't have a HD cap... you could maybe use that to bump your HD up above 20. I'm not sure how the rules would treat that, though... if that counts as "leveling up" or not. *shrug*

There was a template called Beast of Xvim that gave certain creature types a Feed (Su) ability with no HD cap. It was later updated as Beast of Bane in the Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land, but I think it still has no HD cap.

Tokiko Mima
2009-07-22, 07:44 PM
I think he was referring to the attack bonus, not number of attacks, since he contrasts it with divine power.

Exactly. The point is you can achieve a BAB bonus well above 21 long before epic levels and ECL 21, which is what the OP was asking.

It won't get you iterative attacks beyond the usual 4, but 20 flying swords all hitting your foe 4 times with a bonus higher than a warrior your level is likely to have has to count for something. Who needs a 5th attack from BAB when you already have 80 attacks with a single standard action?

VirOath
2009-07-22, 08:36 PM
Welcome to the level of absurdity.

Divine Power gives you a BAB equal to your HD.

Abjuration Champion gives you a base Caster Level equal to your BAB.

The MT PrC out of the DMG provides Divine and Arcane advancement. We only need to hit 4th level Clerical Spells for Divine Power, Telekinesis is a 5th level spell.

Toss in MotUH for kicks.

Trick out your Transmutation School, Telekinesis to be exact.

And get a Kensi to give you his BAB after he uses a wand of Divine Power.

I'd say, if you can pull this off in a build, that having four attacks at a minimum 40/35/30/25 would hit quite often, on a Chained Telekinesis.

Squeeze in Extraordinary Concentration somehow, and you will be laughing, able to still cast and maybe even act normally as your countless flying, enchanted weapons (Upto 375 lbs worth) hack away at anything.

Only thing is it can be outrun and outranged. But now you have a true Battle Magus!

(And yes, I know God Killed a Catgirl because of me)