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DragonBaneDM
2009-07-21, 10:47 PM
Yo. This is more or less a last minute attempt at me making my new, Level 8 Human Assault Swordmage keep up with the rest of the party.

I have access to the Vault, Arcane Power, and any other books out there.

Open to all suggestions you have for me, whether they be feats, powers, or especially items.

Let the wisdom flow...Thanks guys.

Starsinger
2009-07-21, 10:49 PM
So... you gave us nothing to work with except that you're a human swordmage?

Mando Knight
2009-07-21, 11:00 PM
Need a bit more info... like a bit more of a concept than "Human Swordmage."

DragonBaneDM
2009-07-21, 11:00 PM
Ahem, yes, sorry, sorry. My bad. Here ya go:

Jett Thessalion, Human Swordmage Level 8

Str 16, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 10.
I have 69 hp; Bloodied 34; Yadda yadda.
Defenses(NO ENCHANTMENT YET) AC: 25 Fort: 18, Ref: 21, Will 22
Feats(Thus Far, I have 2 left): Intelligent Blademaster, Escalating Assault, Bastard Sword Proficiency, Risky Aegis
Oh, and a +13 to hit. Also with no enchantment. Yet.

I'm focusing around the one blade style, since that +3 to AC from Warding is WAY too good to pass up. And a lot of the party is melee, so I kinda wanted to stay away from blasts that hit all creatures, like Flame Cyclone.

Anything else you wanted to know?

Mando Knight
2009-07-21, 11:52 PM
Your Will defense is off. It's actually only 17.

I would look at Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade) and either Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade) or Focused Expertise (Bastard Sword). If you pick a lot of Fire powers, consider grabbing Surging Flame to deal extra fire damage to resistant opponents.

For At-Wills, I'd pick Sword Burst (targets enemies only), Greenflame Blade (deal a good bit of Fire damage to a single foe, and then a small amount to any enemy next to him), and Lightning Lure (drag an enemy closer to you).

For the level 1 encounter powers, I'd pick either Blazing Pursuit (to stay next to your foe if he doesn't run away fast enough) or Lightning Clash (to hit a second enemy near the first). Foesnare is also tempting, since it immobilizes the foe and can be used in a charge.

(L1 Daily) Frost Backlash gives you a nice "damned if you do, damned if you don't" factor to your Aegis: If the target doesn't attack you, you can jump next to him and splat 'im with your Aegis attack. If he tries to hit you instead and succeeds, you can freeze his face with one of your most powerful attacks, which happens to be a Weapon vs. NAD attack.

Whirling Blade provides a ranged option for when charging your opponent isn't feasible. Sweeping Frostblade lets you immobilize every enemy next to you. Dance of the Sword targets Will and shuts down the enemy's ability to hinder your allies' movements and attempts to flank. Burning Blade adds Fire damage to everything you do. Dragon's Teeth hammers a large area for good damage (for a Close Blast 5, anyway), only targets enemies, and kills them for not being next to you.

(L2 Utility) Eldritch Speed boosts your Initiative, and then lets you get into the fray faster with an extra Move Action. Mythal Recovery lets you make a saving throw, and Dimensional Warp lets you swap your allies around, just in case you need to get the Rogue out of where she's being flanked or something.

(L3 Encounter) Blastback Swipe and Blazing Lunge both let you use them in place of a charge and can replace certain melee basic attacks with your Aegis of Assault, but Dual Lightning Strike lets you slap two enemies while teleporting around.

(L5 Daily) Dimensional Bond lets you stick close to the target, useful if it likes to run away a lot. Enervating Slash prevents the target from hurting your pals seriously. Energy Theft, Purifying Wound, and Deep Freeze all cause some kind of lasting pain to the foe and/or its allies.

(L6 Utility) Swordmage's Decree shuts down a large number of foes by marking them all. Armathor's Step, Quickling Stride, and Zephyr of the Barren Sands all increase your mobility. Silversteel Veil and Unicorn's Touch both provide a bit of leader-y goodness. Dimensional Warp only helps if you're dealing with a fellow teleportation master, like if you were in the Feywild or Astral Sea...

(L7 Encounter) Spikes of Agony convinces your foe to stay put or else. Shatterblade deals a decent amount of damage to everything that's next to your target except you... so that isn't that great if you've got a couple of other guys next to him. Thunderclap Strike knocks everything next to you prone for easy pickings with melee attacks. Electrified Lash is simply another glorified Sword Burst.

DragonBaneDM
2009-07-22, 12:26 AM
Thanks man.

Oh, and I found this sick Daily called Shielding Flame in Dragon. It marks until the end of the encounter. Totally taking that unless I find something better in AP.

I appreciate it.

Burley
2009-07-22, 08:07 AM
I know that the Aegis of Assault is cool, but here's the big problem with it: You aren't protecting your allies. A Defender is supposed to keep the other guys from getting hit, but you Aegis will only go off after the enemy hits and your ally has already taken damage. Plus, you left the enemy next to your ally, so, there's nothing to keep it safe next turn.
I'd suggest Shielding Aegis, because it's the most defendery of them all. Or, it you want to hit things more often, Aegis of Ensnarement has the same "you have to fail at defending for your defender power to go off" flaw, but you do get to slide that enemy away from your ally.


Summary: Aegis of Assault is the coolest of the Aegis powers, but it is not Defendery.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-22, 08:18 AM
I know that the Aegis of Assault is cool, but here's the big problem with it: You aren't protecting your allies. A Defender is supposed to keep the other guys from getting hit, but you Aegis will only go off after the enemy hits and your ally has already taken damage. Plus, you left the enemy next to your ally, so, there's nothing to keep it safe next turn.


And how does that differ from how other defenders work?

Yakk
2009-07-22, 08:26 AM
My swordmage isn't 8 yet, but I've been focusing on teleportation and bursts.

Feats(Thus Far, I have 2 left):
Intelligent Blademaster
-- must have for a low-str assault swordmage

Risky Aegis
-- Good: granting combat advantage to someone who has already attacked someone else!

Escalating Assault
-- I don't remember this one.

Bastard Sword Proficiency,
-- Bastard Swords are actually questionable, given the low [W] count on swordmage powers, and number of implement powers that Swordmages have.

Weapon Focus grants a flat +1 damage to both your Weapon and Implement attacks. And Focused Expertise grants a +1 to hit on both your Weapon and Implement attacks.

...

You haven't picked up a MC. A fun 2 feat MC is MC wizard (grabbing whatever), then enlarge spell. And use sword-burst as an at-will.

Now you have an at-will burst 2 power that targets enemies and does 1d6+4+focus+enchantment damage.

Then grab destructive wizardry, and get +2 damage if you hit 2 targets with it.

Chip chip chip away. It is only ~9-15 damage per target, but it hits lots of targets.

...

I also grabbed sword of sigils (another burst 1 targets enemies, this one putting a paladin-style burn mark on each of them for a turn), dimensional vortex (target who hits an ally gets teleported, and hits an enemy instead -- note that this is a RANGED power, so it provokes).

Sword of Sigils is very tasty, in that it both helps focus damage on you at the start of the fight, and deals good damage at the start of the fight. The 6 points of burn plus the -2 to hit is either ignored (in which case, it does top-notch area damage), or it protects your allies.

I like the teleport swap thing. It lets you pull allies out of the fire. And if enemies are swarming an ally, you swap and sword burst (or sigil burst).

In short, I focused on AOE damage. I did go shielding, so on a single boss I could shield kite (mark the boss, and run, and force the bad guy to run after me or do less damage), which doesn't work for assault.

---

My level 8 feat build on my eladrin shielding swordmage looks like:
Eladrin Soldier
MC wizard (the one that requires 13 wis)
Enlarge Spell
Destructive Wizardry
Focused Expertise (Longsword)

At that point, he's doing 1d6+10 (assuming a +2 weapon and hitting 2 or more targets) in close burst 2 at-will at +13 to hit vs Reflex, and only targeting enemies.

Plus 3 teleports per-encounter (which means I override enemy positioning choices), 1 double-move per encounter, a bunch of burst+special effect powers, etc.

Another thought: how much does the party need a defender? How much do they need a controller?

Burley
2009-07-22, 09:46 AM
And how does that differ from how other defenders work?

Other defenders have interrupts. The Swordmage's smacky powers are all reactions.
I've played a fighter and a swordmage. Swordmages hit you for hitting their friends, while the fighter hits you for trying.

Mando Knight
2009-07-22, 11:07 AM
Thanks man.

Oh, and I found this sick Daily called Shielding Flame in Dragon. It marks until the end of the encounter. Totally taking that unless I find something better in AP.

I appreciate it.

You're not a Shielding Swordmage, so I'd avoid that power. You've only got a +1 Constitution modifier.

Enervating Slash can really hinder your opponent's ability to damage your allies even if it does hit, Dimensional Bond lets you catch up with a fleeing enemy, Deep Freeze and Purifying Wound punish enemies that stick together, Energy Theft gives your allies resistance by inflicting vulnerability to the same type of damage on your enemy...

Yakk
2009-07-22, 11:11 AM
Remember -- you are a Defender sub Controller.

Go for powers that let you control what happens on the battlefield.

Your damage output (on a single target) will never be that high.

NPCMook
2009-07-22, 11:28 AM
Remember -- you are a Defender sub Controller.

Go for powers that let you control what happens on the battlefield.

Your damage output (on a single target) will never be that high.

Are you sure? They are more Striker, their powers only seem more Controller..-y, but in fact they are more Striker..-y

Burley
2009-07-22, 12:33 PM
Are you sure? They are more Striker, their powers only seem more Controller..-y, but in fact they are more Striker..-y

I disagree.
But, I don't have access to anything right now to support my case.
I respect your opinion, however, because I took a lot of not often used powers when I made my swordmage.

NPCMook
2009-07-22, 12:49 PM
Looking at them again it seems they favor both Controller and Striker, Aegis of Assault seems to favor the more Striker side of the class, while Aegis of Shielding/Ensnarement favor Controller. Half the At-wills are striker, while the other half is controller with moving the enemies around the battle field. Level 1 Encounters 4 out of 9 are more striker, while the other 5 push more towards battlefield control. Later on in levels the seem to mash together a bit more.

Mando Knight
2009-07-22, 02:11 PM
I would hardly call the class with the most 1 damage-die encounter powers "secondary striker."

And what do the Level 1 encounter powers do that you think they're striker-y?

Blazing Pursuit: burn your foe, then make sure he stays right next to you.
Chilling Blow: foe gets frostbite if he tries to hurt anyone.
Crackling Burst: foes right next to you stay right next to you unless they want to take more lightning damage.
Falcon's Mark: marks a target up to 5 spaces away.
Flame Cyclone: deal a decent amount of damage to an area.
Foesnare: foe stays put. End of story.
Fox's Feint: set up a flank, or leave one. With Aegis of Ensnarement, the Combat Advantage bonus grows.
Lightning Clash: damages a target in front of you, then another farther away.
Sword of Sigils: marks everyone next to you, and automatically hurts them if they ignore you.

...Of these, I only see two near-Striker attacks: Flame Cyclone, which is only a Sorcerer's Burning Spray with Intelligence in place of Charisma and lacking the Dragon Sorcerer's retribution damage, and Lightning Clash, which is similar to a Sorcerer's Chaos Bolt or Lightning Strike. In both cases, the Swordmage comes out a bit weaker than the Sorcerer.

Yakk
2009-07-22, 02:42 PM
And the most "strikery" ones are multiple targets. Which is a controller bias.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-22, 03:57 PM
Other defenders have interrupts. The Swordmage's smacky powers are all reactions.
I've played a fighter and a swordmage. Swordmages hit you for hitting their friends, while the fighter hits you for trying.

To balance that, assault swordmages can use a lot of their encounter powers with their aegis - the threat they cause is significant for most enemies to prefer attacking the swordmage, not the other party members. And that's what defending is about.

As for striker aspects, swordmages have a hard time doing as much damage as fighters or paladins - it requires a very specific build. The best way is probably to play a stormsoul genasi and use mostly lightning/thunder powers and/or a lightning weapon - but even then, another class could go with the same tactic and deal bigger damage.

Mando Knight
2009-07-22, 05:31 PM
The best way is probably to play a stormsoul genasi and use mostly lightning/thunder powers and/or a lightning weapon - but even then, another class could go with the same tactic and deal bigger damage.

Yep. Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer. Pick a single element, stick to it, and kill everything with that same element. Their motto? Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire.

Yakk
2009-07-22, 05:34 PM
Oh yes -- in what way aren't you keeping up with your party?

Can you give sketches of their builds?

DragonBaneDM
2009-07-22, 11:35 PM
I played him today.

Went AMAZING. This character's great, he really is. He's damage-y. But we've gotta Barbarian who was able to take a lot of hits. Twas nice.

Watchful Strike turned out to be my most useful encounter. Marking two people in one turn was just nice.

I didn't end up using Shielding Flame, or any other dailies for that matter.

Just 3 Buggies and a Behir Whelp. Nice encounter. Did a lot of damage, and a lot of it with the Assault. Kept them off the bard and avenger pretty well.

And I know the Assault isn't the most defendery, but I like it a lot. As previously stated, it's a lot of fun to use, and deals a good bit of damage. 38 in one crit, to be exact.

And I went Oathblade. Which was also nice. Hahaha. Love Swordmages. Thanks for the help, guys. And I might take that MC Wizard. Enlarge Spell is gonna be sweet.

Oh, and the DM's considering letting me rebuild. If I do, I'm gonna grab Arcane Reach and Solid Sound.

With Enlarge Spell, that's a Blast 2 within 2, with no OA, and I get a +2 to all defenses, at-will. Which is really cool. :smallbiggrin:

Burley
2009-07-23, 06:46 AM
Okay... Wait...
What does this power normally target? Enemies in burst? Also, it is a close burst 1, right?

I don't have my books at work, but something about this idea of yours screams "Shenanigans."

Yakk
2009-07-23, 08:21 AM
With Enlarge Spell, that's a Blast 2 within 2, with no OA, and I get a +2 to all defenses, at-will. Which is really cool.
Burst 2, not Blast 2.
I think it is +2 to one defence (if the power hits, you get the bonus -- if it hits 10 times, you get the bonus) of your choice.

Master_Rahl22
2009-07-23, 09:45 AM
No that's widely established. Sword Burst is Close Burst 1, all enemies in burst. Enlarge Spell to make it Close Burst 2. Arcane Reach to let you pick a square within 2 of you as the origin instead of yourself. It's a Force power, so Solid Sound triggers off of it. All totally within the rules.

Burley
2009-07-23, 09:56 AM
Is Arcane Reach a feat, or is it a utility? If I were to slap Arcane Reach onto the Artificer's Thundering Armor, could I target myself?

Yakk
2009-07-23, 10:07 AM
No, because it targets an ally (I'm guessing). And you aren't your own ally.

Arcane Reach lets you pick a square within 2 of you to act as the origin of a close burst or blast arcane power. It is a feat.

Burley
2009-07-23, 10:12 AM
Can it only be applied to one power when you take the feat? Or just any power, whenever you feel like? What's the drawback, other than a feat?

Kylarra
2009-07-23, 10:54 AM
I played him today.

Went AMAZING. This character's great, he really is. He's damage-y. But we've gotta Barbarian who was able to take a lot of hits. Twas nice.

Watchful Strike turned out to be my most useful encounter. Marking two people in one turn was just nice.

I didn't end up using Shielding Flame, or any other dailies for that matter.

Just 3 Buggies and a Behir Whelp. Nice encounter. Did a lot of damage, and a lot of it with the Assault. Kept them off the bard and avenger pretty well.

And I know the Assault isn't the most defendery, but I like it a lot. As previously stated, it's a lot of fun to use, and deals a good bit of damage. 38 in one crit, to be exact.

And I went Oathblade. Which was also nice. Hahaha. Love Swordmages. Thanks for the help, guys. And I might take that MC Wizard. Enlarge Spell is gonna be sweet.

Oh, and the DM's considering letting me rebuild. If I do, I'm gonna grab Arcane Reach and Solid Sound.

With Enlarge Spell, that's a Blast 2 within 2, with no OA, and I get a +2 to all defenses, at-will. Which is really cool. :smallbiggrin:
burst 2 becomes blast 5, just saying. :smallbiggrin:


Can it only be applied to one power when you take the feat? Or just any power, whenever you feel like? What's the drawback, other than a feat?It's a paragon feat and only applied to close arcane powers. Also dex 15.

NPCMook
2009-07-23, 12:07 PM
There is an Epic Build for Swordmage that is rather cheesy, Sword Burst is a Close Burst 3, tacking on Master White Lotus Riposte, Polearm Gamble and Heavy Blade Opportunity. You hit a lot of enemies a lot of times.

Yakk
2009-07-23, 12:27 PM
There is an Epic Build for Swordmage that is rather cheesy, Sword Burst is a Close Burst 3, tacking on Master White Lotus Riposte, Polearm Gamble and Heavy Blade Opportunity. You hit a lot of enemies a lot of times.
.. which is a combination that doesn't work, because sword burst isn't a weapon power, and HBO only works for weapon powers.

NPCMook
2009-07-23, 12:31 PM
.. which is a combination that doesn't work, because sword burst isn't a weapon power, and HBO only works for weapon powers.

Okay, so the build doesn't require Polearm Gamble and HBO, so its viable at Paragon Tier.