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Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-21, 10:48 PM
Ok, we've all seen the Combat Form feats from the PHB2, the ones that reward you for being a fighter with... high wis?

Anyways, I was thinking of what to do with them, and I figured the Monk could use them for something.

So, we need a monk build of some sort. Yes, another one.


Name: Chouji
Race: Dwarf
Stats
Str: 16 (Put all level up points and etc in here)
Dex:12
Con: 14+2=16
Wis 14
Int: 14
Cha: 8-2=6

Class: Overwhelming Attack Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#overwhelmingAttack) 6/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Shou Disciple5/Kensai7

We shall fight by bull rushing our enemies to death.

Note:
Overwhelming attack's 6th-Level Bonus Ability:If you have used Intimidate to demoralize your opponent at any time within the previous 10 rounds, you gain a +4 bonus on Strength checks made to bull rush or overrun that opponent.
Prerequisites: Intimidate 4 ranks, Perform (dance) 4 ranks.

You also get +2 to Intimidate.

Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered lets you intimidate a group at once.

Items:
Steadfast Boots (MiC, 1400 gp) +4 bonus to avoid bull rush, trip, or overrun attacks. Any two-handed weapon you carry is treated as if readied against any creature that charges you.

Feats: 9 of them, and 3 monk bonus feats.

Monk feats:
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Overrun

Fighter feats:
Combat Focus (Duration 10 rounds + 1 round per combat form feat. +2 will saves, +4 with 3 combat form feats.)
Combat Stability (+4 to resist bull rush, overrun, trip, disarm, etc. +8 with 3 combat form feats)

Level feats:
1. Combat Expertise
3. Improved Trip
6. Knock Down
9. Knock Back
12. Combat Vigor (Fast healing 2 as long as combat focus is maintained, fast healing 4 with 3 combat form feats.)
15: Improved Natural Attack
18: Snap Kick

Kensai ability: Add Sizing to you unarmed strikes. Since you use your entire body, and the Sizing enhancement lets you change the size of the weapon to whatever you want...

Method of attack:
Demoralize a group of enemies. Bull rush them. Kill them.

Technically, you can't wield a Sizing weapon that's a different size without incurring attack penalties, but Bull Rush doesn't require an attack. Joy.

Any thoughts on the form feats?

Person_Man
2009-07-22, 09:41 AM
I agree that Combat Focus (+4 Will) + Combat Stability (+8 to opposed special attacks) + Combat Vigor (Fast Healing 4) is a good combination for melee types. However, I don't think it has much synergy with this particular build. Dungeoncrasher doesn't work well without Knockback, which requires Powerful Build or Large+ size. Combat Stability only applies to checks made against you (not checks you initiate) and Combat Vigor works best when combined with other healing (Hellreaver, Crusader, Stone Power, Claws of the Beast, vampiric weapons, damage sharing spells/binding/item, etc).

I think the Psychic Warrior or Serenity Paladin build might fit it better. I have one somewhere... Ah, here it is:

Sir Wisdom the SAD
Elan Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind 5/Sanctified Mind 2-6

A Paladin using the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine, also on Crystalkeep) uses Wis instead of Cha for all of his class abilities. So now your Wis improves all of your Saves (and it effectively doubles up on your Will Save), and you can use it for Smite (bonus to hit) and Turn Undead uses (various Divine feats).

Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness) is 6 level, full BAB PrC which provides 5/6 caster or manifester progression (player's choice, and you can explicitly change which you take each level) with the dead level being the first level of the class. Unlike most other classes, you can enter it at ECL 5. It also has some semi-useful class abilities, including Power Resistance based on your HD, which counts as Spell Resistance if your DM is using the transparency rules.

War Mind (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:War_Mind) is a nifty PrC. His best class feature is Sweeping Strike, which can be abused all kinds of ways with Attack of Opportunity combos. But he also gets Wis based Psychic Warrior power progression. It's relatively fast progression, too. At ECL 15, you essentially have the same powers as a 15th level Psychic Warrior.

Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) which allows you to use your Wis bonus for your To-Hit bonus with simple or natural weapons.

Enhanced Elan Resilience (Complete Psionic) improves your Elan ability to spend your Power Points (based on Wis) to negate damage to 4 points per power point spent. You can also burn 1 point to get +4 to your Saves for 1 round. Though you need to be careful about this, as both are an Immediate Action, and thus can be done once per round. Alternatively or in addition, you can also get temporary hit points with the Vigor power, and/or heal with Hostile Empathic Transfer when you need to. And/or you can set up the standard Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion combo. Just be mindful that you have very limited power points (though you're helped out by bonus power points from a high Wis).

And Mage Slayer feats have no effect on caster levels, as the transparency rules have no effect on feats (otherwise a Psychic Warrior could take Practiced Caster and metamagic feats, which they can't). So casters have a lot to fear from you.

Buy a Monk's Belt, and you get Wis to AC (including Touch AC). Improve both AC's even higher by using the Shield and Inertial Armor powers. And since you're not wearing armor, you can buy a Ring of Evasion, just to be extra cautious.

To top it off, take a look at the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) to get free movement every turn, so that you can make a full attack every round. (Not that you need it. You have Hustle. But it's nice to be thorough).

Put it all together, and you get a PC who has Wis based Turn Undead, Saves, To-Hit, AC, and (essentially) hit points, with full BAB, 15th level Psychic Warrior abilities, plenty of divine and psionic options, and numerous useful class abilities.

AslanCross
2009-07-22, 09:57 AM
They'd synergize well with the Swordsage too, and even fit fluff-wise if it's a Diamond Mind swordsage.

Though the BAB reqs would probably make them harder to achieve.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-22, 10:04 AM
Could Zentharim Soldier make things faster?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 01:07 PM
Dungeoncrasher doesn't work well without Knockback, which requires Powerful Build or Large+ size.

Ah, well the Sizing weapon enchantment can help us there, since you can change the size of your weapon (no, not that one) and since your entire body is a weapon... assuming shenanigans fly, of course.

I'll add Knockback in.

Dixieboy
2009-07-22, 01:18 PM
Ah, well the Sizing weapon enchantment can help us there, since you can change the size of your weapon (no, not that one) and since your entire body is a weapon... assuming shenanigans fly, of course.

I'll add Knockback in.

Actually seeing as monks use "Any part of their body" as a weapon.

You can do it on that weapon too. :smallwink:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 01:20 PM
Shutupshutpshutup

Human Paragon 3
2009-07-22, 01:28 PM
Using the Sizing enchantment to grow to colossal at will (or shrink to fine at will) via kensai is obvious cheese that no sane DM would allow. Other than that, looks cool.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 01:34 PM
Most of the things I make are for the lulz anyways, so it's alright.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 01:44 PM
I agree that Combat Focus (+4 Will) + Combat Stability (+8 to opposed special attacks) + Combat Vigor (Fast Healing 4) is a good combination for melee types. However, I don't think it has much synergy with this particular build. Dungeoncrasher doesn't work well without Knockback, which requires Powerful Build or Large+ size. Combat Stability only applies to checks made against you (not checks you initiate) and Combat Vigor works best when combined with other healing (Hellreaver, Crusader, Stone Power, Claws of the Beast, vampiric weapons, damage sharing spells/binding/item, etc).

I think the Psychic Warrior or Serenity Paladin build might fit it better. I have one somewhere... Ah, here it is:

Sir Wisdom the SAD
Elan Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind 5/Sanctified Mind 2-6

A Paladin using the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine, also on Crystalkeep) uses Wis instead of Cha for all of his class abilities. So now your Wis improves all of your Saves (and it effectively doubles up on your Will Save), and you can use it for Smite (bonus to hit) and Turn Undead uses (various Divine feats).

Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness) is 6 level, full BAB PrC which provides 5/6 caster or manifester progression (player's choice, and you can explicitly change which you take each level) with the dead level being the first level of the class. Unlike most other classes, you can enter it at ECL 5. It also has some semi-useful class abilities, including Power Resistance based on your HD, which counts as Spell Resistance if your DM is using the transparency rules.

War Mind (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:War_Mind) is a nifty PrC. His best class feature is Sweeping Strike, which can be abused all kinds of ways with Attack of Opportunity combos. But he also gets Wis based Psychic Warrior power progression. It's relatively fast progression, too. At ECL 15, you essentially have the same powers as a 15th level Psychic Warrior.

Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) which allows you to use your Wis bonus for your To-Hit bonus with simple or natural weapons.

Enhanced Elan Resilience (Complete Psionic) improves your Elan ability to spend your Power Points (based on Wis) to negate damage to 4 points per power point spent. You can also burn 1 point to get +4 to your Saves for 1 round. Though you need to be careful about this, as both are an Immediate Action, and thus can be done once per round. Alternatively or in addition, you can also get temporary hit points with the Vigor power, and/or heal with Hostile Empathic Transfer when you need to. And/or you can set up the standard Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion combo. Just be mindful that you have very limited power points (though you're helped out by bonus power points from a high Wis).

And Mage Slayer feats have no effect on caster levels, as the transparency rules have no effect on feats (otherwise a Psychic Warrior could take Practiced Caster and metamagic feats, which they can't). So casters have a lot to fear from you.

Buy a Monk's Belt, and you get Wis to AC (including Touch AC). Improve both AC's even higher by using the Shield and Inertial Armor powers. And since you're not wearing armor, you can buy a Ring of Evasion, just to be extra cautious.

To top it off, take a look at the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) to get free movement every turn, so that you can make a full attack every round. (Not that you need it. You have Hustle. But it's nice to be thorough).

Put it all together, and you get a PC who has Wis based Turn Undead, Saves, To-Hit, AC, and (essentially) hit points, with full BAB, 15th level Psychic Warrior abilities, plenty of divine and psionic options, and numerous useful class abilities.


I can't believe I forgot about using Paladins. A Paladin/Something should have been the first think I thought of.

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 01:46 PM
Sir Wisdom the SAD is a beautiful name.

Spiryt
2009-07-22, 01:52 PM
All I can say about those feats is :

MORE!

They're nice idea, and finally fighter can make some use out of his many feats.

But they certainly could use some homebrew changed/additional feats, for more options.

Combat Defence (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Combat_Defense,all) is as bad as Dodge is...

sonofzeal
2009-07-22, 01:58 PM
Ok, we've all seen the Combat Form feats from the PHB2, the ones that reward you for being a fighter with... high wis?
I don't really see the Wis synergy. Certainly there's thematic overlap, but I can't remember any mechanical connection (I'm AFB though).

I do love the feats, choosing the three that best suit you will do excellent things for most martial characters. Any character I make with a bunch of open feat slots will usually consider them, as they're easy to get and provide some nice bonuses. It's also not hard to keep the bonuses up 90% of the time, as you can (I think) trigger them by attacking the ground with your foot. =P

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 01:59 PM
I don't really see the Wis synergy. Certainly there's thematic overlap, but I can't remember any mechanical connection (I'm AFB though).

I do love the feats, choosing the three that best suit you will do excellent things for most martial characters. Any character I make with a bunch of open feat slots will usually consider them, as they're easy to get and provide some nice bonuses. It's also not hard to keep the bonuses up 90% of the time, as you can (I think) trigger them by attacking the ground with your foot. =P

They all require a Wis of 13 (or in some cases, more) in order to take them.

Indon
2009-07-22, 02:24 PM
Using the Sizing enchantment to grow to colossal at will (or shrink to fine at will) via kensai is obvious cheese that no sane DM would allow. Other than that, looks cool.

Insane DM's, however, would no doubt appreciate your D&D rendition of that one Naruto character who defeats his enemies by growing gigantic, rolling up into a ball, and bowling them into things.

Choji? Chouji? Something like that.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 02:26 PM
Chouji, I believe.

That's going to be his name.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-22, 04:59 PM
Dodge is amazing with Titan Fighting (RoS), and Combat Defense is great if you have Elusive Target (CW). If you can use those for Psionic Dodge as well the benefit doubles. If you have the extra feats and an appropriate race, there's little reason not to take them.

One amazing Wis-SAD build goes something like Monk/Soulknife/Soulbow (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2), with Zen Archery. That gets your Wis bonus to attacks, damage, and AC, making everything but Con and Dex a dump stat. Use TWF since a Mind Arrow only takes one hand to fire, or even use Multiweapon Fighting with a nonpsionic Thri-Kreen (2 HD, +1 LA). I doubt it has enough open feats to get anything from the Combat Focus line, but it definitely rewards a high Wisdom score.

The growing-big-and-crushing-enemies trick can be accomplished at level 1. Go Psychic Warrior with Expansion and Up the Walls, and be sure your character plus gear weighs at least 500 pounds. Grow Large (standard action), run 10 ft. up the wall, and jump down onto up to four opponents (move action), dealing 20d6 falling object damage, no attack roll, no saving throw (DMG page 303). Since you're jumping down the fall is treated as ten feet less for how much damage you take, so you're unharmed by it and can repeat it round after round until you run out of powerpoints.

DragoonWraith
2009-07-22, 05:05 PM
The growing-big-and-crushing-enemies trick can be accomplished at level 1. Go Psychic Warrior with Expansion and Up the Walls, and be sure your character plus gear weighs at least 500 pounds. Grow Large (standard action), run 10 ft. up the wall, and jump down onto up to four opponents (move action), dealing 20d6 falling object damage, no attack roll, no saving throw (DMG page 303). Since you're jumping down the fall is treated as ten feet less for how much damage you take, so you're unharmed by it and can repeat it round after round until you run out of powerpoints.

So what you're saying is, his enemies are going to be serially crushed by some huge friggin' guy! ?