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Origomar
2009-07-22, 02:28 AM
there is a druid variant here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid
Is it just me or does this seem a little imbalanced, i mean you basically get everything thats good about the monk(with the xception of FoB) and ranger(with the exception of full BAB) i mean the druid has to stack wisdom anyway for spells, so essentially the druid has become a monk with favored enemies a pet and full spellcasting. i know there are things way more imbalanced than this but its something i just recently found x.x.


And although you lose wildshape, it's just odd to see a variant that is actually decent.

Salt_Crow
2009-07-22, 02:30 AM
Nah, losing WS hurts far too much. You could reliably gain Wis to AC by using Monk's Belt (+ Wilding Clasp), and all the other benefits don't really make up for the degree of flexibility and raw power offered by WS.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-22, 02:30 AM
I'd say it looks fine due to how powerful Wild Shape can be (I'd also guess that Weilding Clasps with magic armour and/or a shield would be better then just applying Wis to AC as well).

Origomar
2009-07-22, 02:33 AM
i know its not better than wildshape because wildshape can be abused to know end and is in itself awesome. its just an interesting variant. most the ones ive seen on that website are kind of awful and theres almost no purpose in useing them(from what i see)

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-22, 02:37 AM
Ironically, I'm playing as an LA 0 version of this Anachu, http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=851 , with both the Druidic Avenger and Deadly Hunter variants. I'll let you know how effective it is when I can use it ina fight (it's a slow solo game due to the freind who's DMing not being on IM that much).

Philaenas
2009-07-22, 02:43 AM
So this would then again salten the already grave wounds of the monk in confirming that it utterly sucks?

Maybe monks should gain wild shape in some strange naturely focused monk variant. :smallsmile:

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-22, 02:48 AM
I wouldn't say it confirms that Monks are rubbish. It's just that Wildshape is a really powerful class feature, so anything that's replacing it would struggle to be more powerful.

Philaenas
2009-07-22, 02:53 AM
I wouldn't say it confirms that Monks are rubbish. It's just that Wildshape is a really powerful class feature, so anything that's replacing it would struggle to be more powerful.

Hm true, I must have uttered some kind of fallacy there (can't be bothered to look up which specific one :p). And yes, wildshape is indeed very powerful, that's why I thought it might make monks worthwhile, especially since their class features will in general not be lost by shapeshifting. However, I can also see how this can easily get iffy with forms gaining multiple arms and such...

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-22, 02:55 AM
I think Fax Celestis may have made an improved Monk which is pretty good (I'll try to find it).
EDIT: Not the one I was thinking of (someone else must have made it), but you may like http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk .

AslanCross
2009-07-22, 04:46 AM
Isn't there a Monk/Druid PrC in Complete Champion? The First of the Forest?
It requires you to sleep outdoors and not take baths, haha.

Leon
2009-07-22, 10:33 AM
there is a druid variant here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid
Is it just me or does this seem a little imbalanced, i mean you basically get everything thats good about the monk(with the xception of FoB) and ranger(with the exception of full BAB) i mean the druid has to stack wisdom anyway for spells, so essentially the druid has become a monk with favored enemies a pet and full spellcasting. i know there are things way more imbalanced than this but its something i just recently found x.x.

And although you lose wildshape, it's just odd to see a variant that is actually decent.
Its a good variant, i have a Druid that is both this vari and the Avenger vari and it works well.
Ive never been a fan of the wildshape feature and always look for a alternate to it, this one fits well with the class in a natural spell caster aspect


Nah, losing WS hurts far too much.
There is much more to the Druid than WS, its loss is easy



Isn't there a Monk/Druid PrC in Complete Champion? The First of the Forest?
It requires you to sleep outdoors and not take baths, haha.

yes it fits quite well with the Avenger variant as the bonuses to speed and such stack (Love Untyped bonuses)

Along the same lines the Sacred Fist PrC in Complete Divine works nicely with the DruidyMonk feel

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-22, 11:04 AM
There is much more to the Druid than WS, its loss is easy

Flavor-wise, yes; power-wise, no. Wild Shape is the druid's single most powerful and versatile feature, easily surpassing its spellcasting if you focus on it and merely rivaling it if you don't. When he says it "hurts too much," he most likely means it's a significant power downgrade, not that it kills the druid conceptually.

#Raptor
2009-07-22, 11:12 AM
Isn't there a Monk/Druid PrC in Complete Champion? The First of the Forest?
It requires you to sleep outdoors and not take baths, haha.
It doesn't advanche spellcasting, so I wouldn't call it a Druid PrC.

And hey, nothing wrong with sleeping outside in the dirt if you're a hairy barbarian, right? :smalltongue:

Woodsman
2009-07-22, 11:15 AM
There's a Dragon PrC that stacks with monk and druid levels.

Master of the North Wind. Add half of your MotNW levels to your druid level to determine wild shape. Add whole to monk levels to determine unarmed strike and AC bonus. Divine spellcasting progresses as well.

Starscream
2009-07-22, 12:08 PM
I think Fax Celestis may have made an improved Monk which is pretty good (I'll try to find it).
EDIT: Not the one I was thinking of (someone else must have made it), but you may like http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Monk .

I really like that one. I'm planning to actually make that the default Monk for my campaigns.

Leon
2009-07-22, 10:03 PM
Flavor-wise, yes; power-wise, no. Wild Shape is the druid's single most powerful and versatile feature, easily surpassing its spellcasting if you focus on it and merely rivaling it if you don't. When he says it "hurts too much," he most likely means it's a significant power downgrade, not that it kills the druid conceptually.

And it gets stupid to the point of boring that when someone come along wanting suggestions for a Druid that the same boring cookie cutter stuff is shoved at them.
The Druid is a Full caster - That is its power, the pet and the shapes are additional things to do with your time
Taking out one or both of the options does not reduce the power of the druid.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-23, 07:48 AM
And it gets stupid to the point of boring that when someone come along wanting suggestions for a Druid that the same boring cookie cutter stuff is shoved at them.
The Druid is a Full caster - That is its power, the pet and the shapes are additional things to do with your time
Taking out one or both of the options does not reduce the power of the druid.

As a full caster, the druid doesn't compare to the cleric or wizard; a pure caster one of those vs. a pure caster druid most likely results in a cleric or wizard win. The reason druids make good casters is (A) they can focus on their mental attributes and put their highest scores there, because wild shape replaces physical scores, (B) they have to buff less, because wild shape forms can grant movement modes and natural armor and such, and (C) they're a dual threat because their casting covers ranged damage and utility while their wild shape covers melee damage and defense.

Removing wild shape severely reduces its power--down to around the sorcerer's level, which isn't shabby, but it's still a reduction. Removing Natural Spell reduces its power to a lesser extent, as A and C still apply more or less. You can make a quite powerful druid without wild shape, but compared to the druid with wild shape, it's no contest.

Leon
2009-07-23, 08:09 AM
Its the same every time a Druid topic comes up, i get into a silly pointless argument with a Zilla fanatic
I don't like NS/Wild shape druids, other people seem to be so close them, fair enough - i just like to point out the people that don't have a romantic link with wild shape that there is more to the class than that feature and i don't care and they may not aswell if its OMG not as poweful as if it had Xyz

I can see the benefits of having a combat form - that is why i like the Shapeshift Vari

Ive been in games that banned the druid because of things that previous people had exploited with them and it saddens me that one of my favored classes can get like that, which is why i try and steer potential druid players away from the silly cheese that most of the rest do on here


I cant add any insight on a Versus battle between classes as i play D&D as a team adventure game not a PvP arena, so if we are ever fighting anything its with a assortment of classes each adding a strength to the combat

Gaiyamato
2009-07-23, 09:05 AM
Just in reply to the OP:

Combine it with this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger

And use this:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy

And it makes for an interesting close range combat Druid.

Just need to find a way to get Paladin spells on the spell list and it's all good. lol.

TWF with Sickles, Improved Trip. No armor.
;)

I also agree that losing WS is no real biggie, the Druid class takes it like a man and kicks ass anyway.
I have NEVER played a Druid with WS before.

Leon
2009-07-23, 09:57 AM
The Ferocity variant from the cityscape web enhancement is another decent take on the rage mechanic Ive found

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-23, 12:08 PM
Its the same every time a Druid topic comes up, i get into a silly pointless argument with a Zilla fanatic
I don't like NS/Wild shape druids, other people seem to be so close them, fair enough - i just like to point out the people that don't have a romantic link with wild shape that there is more to the class than that feature and i don't care and they may not aswell if its OMG not as poweful as if it had Xyz

I'm not in love with the druid by any means, have never played a "druidzilla," and haven't run one as an NPC in years. All I'm saying is that the notion that the druid brings more to the table power-wise from casting than from wild shape is flawed. If you don't care primarily about power and want to focus on the flavor, then the casting is going to be more up your alley, but the OP thought a replacement for wild shape was too good and more powerful than base wild shape. It was this misconception--that wild shape is a minor side benefit rather than the most powerful feature--I was trying to correct.


I also agree that losing WS is no real biggie, the Druid class takes it like a man and kicks ass anyway.
I have NEVER played a Druid with WS before.

Oh, the druid definitely kicks ass without it, just not as much with one of the variants--which was my point, and which is a very good thing, I think.