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Kzickas
2009-07-22, 05:00 AM
What are good prestige classes for a sorcerer?
Looking for some more versatility and some cool class features
Shouldn't lose more than 1 or 2 levels of casting
Can't need more than 5 sorcerer levels to qualify

#Raptor
2009-07-22, 05:16 AM
Can't need more than 5 sorcerer levels to qualify
That one will be hard. Most caster PrC's require level 3 spells, wich the sorcerer doesn't get before level 6... well, unless you are a white dragonspawn and buy off the LA, from what I understand.

Mage of the Arcane Order got everything you want though. Can't qualify for that one before lvl 6 anyway unless you're a human/stronghearth halfling or play with flaws, as a sorcerer needs 3 feats to enter.

Gnaeus
2009-07-22, 05:26 AM
Sand Shaper (first 8 levels)? (Sandstorm)

Entry with caster level 5, loses only 1 spell level, adds a bunch of spells to your list known and has some class features.

Kzickas
2009-07-22, 05:32 AM
Sand Shaper (first 8 levels)? (Sandstorm)

Entry with caster level 5, loses only 1 spell level, adds a bunch of spells to your list known and has some class features.

That was what I was planning but then i realized that sorcerers can't meet the skill requirements by level 5

Totally Guy
2009-07-22, 06:00 AM
If you take a level of monk you might be eligible for the Enlightened fist class. But over that path you eventally lose 3 caster levels. Plus you have to enjoy delivering touch attacks to see any real benefit.

#Raptor
2009-07-22, 06:27 AM
Found one...

Runesmith.
Its... really far from great for a sorcerer. In fact, from what I can tell its completely useless. You need to be dwarf (doesn't hurt QUITE that much when you pick a gold dwarf, but still...), you need to waste a bunch of skillpoints and you need to blow 2 feats on it. Then you gain a class feature that screams "wizard only!!!" But you can enter after 5 sorcerer levels. Horray? Personally, if I'm gonna be a dwarf, I'll take him to sorc level 9 for the racial substitution level.

I've been wondering... why is entering before level 6 so important to you anyway? I'd rather take a good prc at level 7 than a meciocre/sucky one at 6. Well, unless you don't have to pay for it.

I've been looking for a good sorcerer prc that can be entered before level 5 too for a while, but didn't find any.

AslanCross
2009-07-22, 07:10 AM
I think the main problem with qualifying for full caster PrCs by level 5 is that well, Sorcerers are delayed a level when it comes to attaining spell levels. I found this rather frustrating when I was building sorcerers with PrCs. As such, for many PrCs that require 3rd level spells, Sorcerers have to wait until Lv 6.

Kzickas
2009-07-22, 07:18 AM
because the game starts at level 6, and I want to have at least one level of the prc by then. It's not a combat heavy game so optimization's not that important.

Talya
2009-07-22, 07:19 AM
Like all the others, this requires 3rd level spells, but the Heartwarder PrC from Forgotten Realms Faiths & Pantheons is rather good, despite the horrible feat requirements. (The feat requirements would pretty much keep you from it before getting that level 6 feat anyway--dodge, mobility, spell focus: enchantment, and whip proficiency.)

Triaxx
2009-07-22, 07:30 AM
Talk to the DM about any classes that would require the sixth-level feat. Most are willing to let you take the class if your sixth level feat is the requirement for it. I do.

Zeful
2009-07-22, 07:33 AM
I've been wondering... why is entering before level 6 so important to you anyway? I'd rather take a good prc at level 7 than a meciocre/sucky one at 6. Well, unless you don't have to pay for it.

*sigh*
Because Sorcerers/Wizards have "no reason not to take PrCs because all they lose is familiar advancement, which isn't losing anything important".

#Raptor
2009-07-22, 07:41 AM
*sigh*
Because Sorcerers/Wizards have "no reason not to take PrCs because all they lose is familiar advancement, which isn't losing anything important".I'm astonished by your unique insights. lol.

Show me a decent sorcerer PrC except MotAO that can be entered at level 6 without white dragonspawn & LA buyoff, then I'll see a point in PrCing at 6.

And you don't loose familiar advancement btw. You've traded that off for metamagic specialist, unless its core only. In this case, gl and hf PrCing that sorcerer.

/E: And to add something to the actual topic at hand.
Ask your DM about flaws or if he'll handle it like Triaxx and if he does... you can go MotAO at 6, wich removes one of the sorcerers major drawbacks, giving him increased versatility.
You need to pick 2 bad feats, but you'll get em back. The bonus languages are meh, but hey they come for free. Usually take it to level 7 (Spellpool 3) or 9 (secound feat) before going into the next PrC.

Zeful
2009-07-22, 07:56 AM
I'm astonished by your unique insights. lol.

Show me a decent sorcerer PrC except MotAO that can be entered at level 6 without white dragonspawn & LA buyoff, then I'll see a point in PrCing at 6.

And you don't loose familiar advancement btw. You've traded that off for metamagic specialist, unless its core only. In this case, gl and hf PrCing that sorcerer.

I hate optimization and optimizers with a passion. Thus I find the line in quotes to be an insufficient reason for PrCing out.

Core only is base class only as PrCs are a variant of the core game (chapter 6, where you find PrC, is stated to be a variant chapter). So a sorcerer is the fourth most powerful class in the game (Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer).

Saph
2009-07-22, 08:02 AM
I like the Ruathar PrC from Races of the Wild, personally. Fluff-wise it's interesting, and it gives a variety of useful minor benefits. It's the 'elf-friend' PrC, so obviously, it only works if you like elves.

A sorcerer can enter it at level 6, which is a good point to leave the Sorcerer base class (Sorc 5 to Sorc 6 gives you +1 to BAB and all saves, while Sorc 6 to Sorc 7 gives you almost nothing).

- Saph

#Raptor
2009-07-22, 08:15 AM
@Zeful:
I'm of the opinion that to some degree everyone optimizes. Even with people more focussed on RP, its rare to see them without at least semi-decent feat choices. Most players pick human for a race, wich is the strongest of the PHB races for most classes. Has been a while since I saw a barbarian with a higher int than str too.

But hey, ok. Whatever. But if you hate optimization, what are you doing in a thread that essentially is about optimizing? It certainly wasn't "answering my question". The Topic starter already did that.

Gnaeus
2009-07-22, 08:27 AM
That was what I was planning but then i realized that sorcerers can't meet the skill requirements by level 5

Yes you can. 4 skill points for rank 2 at first level, then 1/2 per level after that, gives you rank 4 at level 5. If you are human or have 12 int you still have points left over for your Concentration.

Now, whether your DM will let you have the Touchstone feat at level 3 is an open question.

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 08:40 AM
well in a literal reading (or maybe misreading) of your first post:
Mystic Theurge!
You can get it at sorcerer 4!

of courses you would also need at least 3 lvl is an divine casting class.

mystic thurge is weak at first, llosing a spell level at low levals is harsh. but once you get to highter ones. it's hardly noticables, honest. :smallcool:
it's effectivly lost of 3 spell leval, to gain double your versatility.

other than that...
Oooh! Oooh!
Wizard lvls!, that's a great PrC!
well it isn't, but it will improve your power, like a presige class would
And it'll kill your dm.
and maybe breaky you mind with the spell lists if your disorganised.

Kzickas
2009-07-22, 08:49 AM
I'm probably going to go for Dread Witch in heroes of horror, but thanks to everyone for your help

Telonius
2009-07-22, 09:05 AM
You may pass out from the stink of cheese, but Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold with Draconic Rite of Passage will qualify you most of what you might want.

Kzickas
2009-07-22, 09:09 AM
You may pass out from the stink of cheese, but Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold with Draconic Rite of Passage will qualify you most of what you might want.

Thanks, but it's phb races only

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 09:16 AM
ooh! cheese, any crackers?
Here some lighter, but equally pungent cheese
there is almost no downside to instead of taking your first lvl as a WhiteDragonspawn.
it's +1 LA
but allows you to cast as a lvl 1 sorcerer, which stacks with real sorcerer lvls.

and you look cool and dracoinic.
it does have some minor side powers, fluff only.

A decent Breathweopon

like a fly speed at double your base speed. nothing most lvl one humans don't have i'm sure.
oh and a minor
+2 dex
+2 con

Kantur
2009-07-22, 09:43 AM
A potential option if you're willing to take a few wizard levels: Ultimate Magus (CMage).

Requires a metamagic feat, Knowedge (Arcana) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, 2nd level arcane spells from spellbook based casting and 1st level spontaneous arcane. If it helps, think of the wizard casting not as wizard levels but metamagic fuel.

And apart from the 3 wizard levels (Unless you get to use one of the various tricks to get the prepared casting early), it's full Sorcerer progression (As it'll be slightly behind and a few levels advance only the lower level arcane class' progression).

#Raptor
2009-07-22, 09:51 AM
ooh! cheese, any crackers?
Here some lighter, but equally pungent cheese
there is almost no downside to instead of taking your first lvl as a WhiteDragonspawn.
it's +1 LA
but allows you to cast as a lvl 1 sorcerer, which stacks with real sorcerer lvls.

and you look cool and dracoinic.
it does have some minor side powers, fluff only.

A decent Breathweopon

like a fly speed at double your base speed. nothing most lvl one humans don't have i'm sure.
oh and a minor
+2 dex
+2 con


True, then you qualify as a lvl 5 sorcerer for PrCs that need level 3 casting - and the templace certainly is great stuff. But you are still a level 6 character (1 LA/5 sorcerer) before you qualify for the lvl 3 casting PrCs. So I don't think its what hes going for.

But heres a idea.
Use white dragonspawn together with dread witch, then buy off the LA. You're now a sorcerer 4/dread witch 1 with the same casting as a sorcerer 5. And you'll quickly catch up to the rest of the group.

ericgrau
2009-07-22, 09:56 AM
One thing to consider when picking sorcerer PrC's: find reasonable pre-reqs. It seems like sorcerers have nothing to lose from a PrC until you find out you're blowing all your feats and some of your spell selection just to meet the entry requirements. Then you can't take any feats nor many spells that you want. In fact, I'd rather have a good late level PrC when you have more feats & spells to meet the pre-reqs than a lousy early level PrC where you struggle giving up all you've got for minimal gain.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-22, 09:58 AM
(Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer).

I thought it was Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer. I thought that if a Wizard tried really hard, he could beat a Druid.

I guess it depends on the levels, too though. I don't think anything beats a 17th+ level Wizard.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-22, 10:25 AM
Have you considered Eldritch Theurge? Warlock invocations + spellcasting = win.

quick_comment
2009-07-22, 10:37 AM
Dread witch is pretty awesome, because it has the only method in the game of bursting through fear immunity.

Also, you can get anima mage with binder 1/sorcerer 4.

DragoonWraith
2009-07-22, 10:38 AM
I hate optimization and optimizers with a passion. Thus I find the line in quotes to be an insufficient reason for PrCing out.
While I find your "hatred" as borderline offensive, I would point out that this is not about optimization - it's about doing something with your levels.

Look, many people enjoy the "character creation" aspect of D&D as much or more than actually playing. How many people dozens of characters they never play? Lots. And it's not about optimization. It's about cool, and about doing different things.

And the problem is that Sorcerers do not do anything after level 1. They get spell casting, and that is it (barring familiar advancement, which I do because everyone I've ever played with forgets about their familiar more often than not). The Sorcerer has no class features, not even the Wizard's bonus feats. There is nothing to gain from staying in the class.

So ultimately, one PrC's out of Sorcerer because staying as a Sorcerer is boring.

Eric Grau is right. A lot of times, the entry requirements for PrC's is rough on a Sorcerer and they actually lose more than they gain. I certainly did by going Sorcerer/Human Paragon/Loremaster/Archmage - a couple of bonuses to saves, +2 to one ability, and the sort-of cool High Arcana, at the cost of four feats, four Divination spells I'll never use (and at least one other that I wouldn't have taken otherwise, even though it is good), and a lost caster level? But at least I wasn't spending 20 levels in the boring Sorcerer class.

Deliverance
2009-07-22, 10:40 AM
well in a literal reading (or maybe misreading) of your first post:
Mystic Theurge!
You can get it at sorcerer 4!

of courses you would also need at least 3 lvl is an divine casting class.

Riight. In that case, let him go Sorcerer/Favoured Soul/Mystic Theurge for super spontaneous spamming of low-to-mid level spells for the first many, many, levels. :D

Wonderful roleplaying possibilities from such a character but probably of very low worth in any campaign based primarily on combat.

Oslecamo
2009-07-22, 10:51 AM
*sigh*
Because Sorcerers/Wizards have "no reason not to take PrCs because all they lose is familiar advancement, which isn't losing anything important".

Actually, if one is an avid powergamer, prestige classing and multiclassing properly will always result in a stronger character than if you had just taken the vanilla class.

It doesn't apply only to sorcerors and wizards, but to everybody else

The artificer is almost an exception, because by level 15 you can craft pretty much anything, so you can swap the last five levels for something cheesy.

Saph
2009-07-22, 11:07 AM
One thing to consider when picking sorcerer PrC's: find reasonable pre-reqs. It seems like sorcerers have nothing to lose from a PrC until you find out you're blowing all your feats and some of your spell selection just to meet the entry requirements. Then you can't take any feats nor many spells that you want. In fact, I'd rather have a good late level PrC when you have more feats & spells to meet the pre-reqs than a lousy early level PrC where you struggle giving up all you've got for minimal gain.

This is why I like the Ruathar, by the way. Its roleplaying prerequisites are fairly significant, but the mechanical ones for a Sorcerer come down to "If you're level 6, you already qualify". This saves your feats to be spent on fun stuff.

- Saph

Gnaeus
2009-07-22, 11:46 AM
Riight. In that case, let him go Sorcerer/Favoured Soul/Mystic Theurge for super spontaneous spamming of low-to-mid level spells for the first many, many, levels. :D

Wonderful roleplaying possibilities from such a character but probably of very low worth in any campaign based primarily on combat.

Come on guys. If you are going to try to lead him down the hard road that is the dual advancement caster, with sorcerer no less, you might at least try to get him to go Arcane Hierophant. The dual advancement class that gives him wildshape and an intelligent animal companion is better than the one with no class features.

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 12:08 PM
Exalted Arcanist. Again, requires level 6. Not very optimal. But very cool.

Jergmo
2009-07-22, 12:20 PM
It'd require you to be level 7, but you could just go with Fatespinner (A PrC anyone should take at least the first 4 levels in). 5th level is a loss of caster level, but with all five levels, at 12th level, you could re-roll a couple rolls here and there, force allies or opponents to re-roll a couple rolls, and at 5th level, give either an opponent or ally a +10 or -10 to their next save. And it's pretty much free. The only thing you wouldn't have already taken pre-req wise is 4 ranks in Profession(Gambler). Also, a number of points equal to your Fatespinner level per day that you can add to your spell DC's.

Talya
2009-07-22, 12:41 PM
I hate optimization and optimizers with a passion.

I've seen this from a few people recently. I'm curious how fun it is to play an 8 Int wizard with power attack...because even selecting appropriate ability scores and feats is optimization.

Jergmo
2009-07-22, 12:43 PM
I've seen this from a few people recently. I'm curious how fun it is to play an 8 Int wizard with power attack...because even selecting appropriate ability scores and feats is optimization.

Don't hate on the Ogre wizard! :smallmad: You'll be sorry in 12-16 levels! Then you'll never see him coming.

Myrmex
2009-07-22, 12:49 PM
One (cheap) way to meet spellcasting requirements early with spontaneous casters is to take Versatile Spellcaster (lets you use two low level spell slots to cast a higher level spell) and Heighten Spell. You can use two level two spells to cast a 3rd level spell at character level 4.

With this trick, you can get early access to a handful of PrC without heavy feat requirements. If your DM lets you play Rainbow Servant with text trumps table, you can enter that at level 5.

Oslecamo
2009-07-22, 01:01 PM
I've seen this from a few people recently. I'm curious how fun it is to play an 8 Int wizard with power attack...because even selecting appropriate ability scores and feats is optimization.


Optimization isn't evil on itself, but when people start doing statistical tables of all the MMs to choose the finest wildshape possible for each imaginable situation their character in particular may find, well, then that's too much.

valadil
2009-07-22, 01:02 PM
I've seen this from a few people recently. I'm curious how fun it is to play an 8 Int wizard with power attack...because even selecting appropriate ability scores and feats is optimization.

As far as I'm concerned, my characters want to be competent. Any sorcerer I play will consider spell focus. This isn't power gaming or optimizing and anyone who says otherwise should go read Stormwind.

Talya
2009-07-22, 01:12 PM
Optimization isn't evil on itself, but when people start doing statistical tables of all the MMs to choose the finest wildshape possible for each imaginable situation their character in particular may find, well, then that's too much.

Yes. I agree it can be taken too far for my tastes. But "I hate optimizers" targets everyone who ever wondered what was the most effective spell to memorize for the day.

Choosing your class-combinations/character build to be effective is no further up the optimization tree than picking feats that you think will work well with your character.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 01:14 PM
I hate optimization and optimizers with a passion.
I love you too.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 01:16 PM
I'm astonished by your unique insights. lol.

Show me a decent sorcerer PrC except MotAO that can be entered at level 6 without white dragonspawn & LA buyoff, then I'll see a point in PrCing at 6.

Ruathar and Incantatrix, I believe.

Myrmex
2009-07-22, 01:18 PM
Choosing your class-combinations/character build to be effective is no further up the optimization tree than picking feats that you think will work well with your character.

What if you decide to play an anthropomorphic bat druid? Or a White Dragonspawn Desert Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer?

Sometimes, I just want to play an Orc wizard.

Arbitrarity
2009-07-22, 01:23 PM
With Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and LA buyoff, of course?

Alteran
2009-07-22, 01:23 PM
Fiend-Blooded from Heroes of Horror is pretty nice. You only lose a casting level on the last of 10 levels, but there are a few downsides. You need to take two meh feats, and it technically requires 8 ranks in a cross-class skill for Sorcerers. I think this must be a mistake, as it is explicitly stated that this is a path for Sorcerers, and it points out how easily sorcerers can meet the casting requirements. You could ask your DM to hand-wave the requirement, or at least make that skill a class skill for Sorcerers.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 01:24 PM
What if you decide to play an anthropomorphic bat druid? Or a White Dragonspawn Desert Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer?

Sometimes, I just want to play an Orc wizard.

No one's going to stop you.

Myrmex
2009-07-22, 01:30 PM
With Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and LA buyoff, of course?

Of course.

...yeah I'm playing one of those right now.

Gnaeus
2009-07-22, 02:03 PM
Fiend-Blooded from Heroes of Horror is pretty nice. You only lose a casting level on the last of 10 levels, but there are a few downsides. You need to take two meh feats, and it technically requires 8 ranks in a cross-class skill for Sorcerers. I think this must be a mistake, as it is explicitly stated that this is a path for Sorcerers, and it points out how easily sorcerers can meet the casting requirements. You could ask your DM to hand-wave the requirement, or at least make that skill a class skill for Sorcerers.

There are a couple of feats that let you take knowledge planes as a class skill.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 02:05 PM
The example sorcerer builds didn't have them, yet were all somehow able to qualify early on...

Typo!

Myrmex
2009-07-22, 02:06 PM
Does Rainbow Servant give you Knowledge: The Planes as a class skill?

DragoonWraith
2009-07-22, 02:06 PM
Would you replace that requirement with something, then? Know: Planes 4 would amount to the same thing, though forcing people to buy cross-class skills is kind of mean. Other ideas?

Toliudar
2009-07-22, 02:18 PM
I didn't see anyone suggest Mindbender as a flavourful 1-level dip for a level 5 sorcerer. It's one of my favourites. No feat requirements. Sure, you're pumping some cross-class skill points into Intimidate (yes, or making some other effort to make Intimidate a class skill). But 100' unlimited telepathy is a GREAT ability.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 02:19 PM
It kinds forces you to take Able Learner, because you probably won't have enough skillpoints to spare.

Not a bad thing, though, since Mindbender has all Knowledge skills, and you can then qualify for other prestige classes...

Quietus
2009-07-22, 02:23 PM
As far as I'm concerned, my characters want to be competent. Any sorcerer I play will consider spell focus. This isn't power gaming or optimizing and anyone who says otherwise should go read Stormwind.

You've completely missed the point of the Stormwind Fallacy, it seems, as no one is comparing "roleplay" to "rollplay". As for optimizing :


–verb (used with object)
1. to make as effective, perfect, or useful as possible.
2. to make the best of.

Which is to say, if you had two feats : Spell Focus and Spell Focus +2, neither have any fluff attached. Would you ever pick regular Spell Focus, when the other has no higher costs and gives +1 more? If the answer is no, that's optimizing, because you're making the best use of the options you have available.

Same thing goes when picking feats. Power Attack on a melee brute is making the best of the options available - thus, optimizing. Picking a half-orc wizard with 8 int, 13 strength, and power attack? That's taking things to a silly extreme.

Talya
2009-07-22, 02:28 PM
That's taking things to a silly extreme.


Yes. Any premise can be tested by taking it to the logical extreme and seeing if it is still valid. If it becomes silly at that point, then the premise is logically unsound. The half-orc wizard with 8 int, 13 wis, and power attack rather disproves that all optimizing is bad. :)

only1doug
2009-07-22, 02:43 PM
Knowledge devotion is a great way of getting knowledge: the planes as a permanent class skill (best way of getting any knowledge skill as permanently class IMO).

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 02:44 PM
I like the 3.0 Cosmopolitan feat - any two skills as class skills.

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-22, 02:52 PM
I don't think the problem is inherently optimization - but rather that it can (and often does) get taken to extremes - even when the author of a post requests otherwise. Often it also involves going for a completely different build than the author is after 'because it's more effective'.

For instance - someone wants to make a Mystic Theurge and asks for suggestions - half the thread inevitably turns into "Mystic Theurge Sucks!"

Someone wants to improve the Fighter class/make a fighter, and it's innevitably "Play a Warblade". (Even for those of us who really like Tome of Battle; sometimes the flavor of the class and it's playstyle simply don't fit the campaign or the character you're after; this should be acceptable and understandable - not argued out as though a person who *gasp* wants to be a Fighter is somehow a moron.)

This isn't to say everyone does that - but it becomes tough to discuss things where we don't care what 'tier' we are - we just want a character that fits a niche, and would like some help with what options are available to that character within that niche.

I guess a way to sum up the problem as I see it:

Optimization and optimizers aren't necessarily the problem - it's the obsessive over-optimization that occurs with virtually any suggested build that becomes a problem.

I think that's where the real frustration comes in - it's fine if you want to optimize your character to hell and back; it can be a great thought exercise. Hell, some people really like playing D&D with godlike characters - and that's more than fine.

Some of us just want to play D&D and have a fun, interesting character - and sometimes we just want a little help with ideas along those lines; rather than trying to make a monster of whatever it is we're making.

That's my perspective at any rate as to why there's friction.

#Raptor
2009-07-22, 03:25 PM
Ruathar and Incantatrix, I believe.
Unfortunately not, they both have lvl 3 spells as a pre-requirement.
Doesn't change the fact that incantatrix is made of awesome and win for a sorcerer though (imho - even more so than for a wizard.. as long as any of the methods to cast metamagiced spells as a standard action is allowed).

Though apparently some PrC's other than MotAO have been found - fiendblooded & dread witch, both from HoH.
Didn't have that book when I was looking for early-entry PrCs for sorcerers the last time, but I'll have to say, both of those look pretty good (and very flavorful). I'll probably be giving Fiendblooded a try sooner or later.

Epinephrine
2009-07-22, 03:46 PM
Come on guys. If you are going to try to lead him down the hard road that is the dual advancement caster, with sorcerer no less, you might at least try to get him to go Arcane Hierophant. The dual advancement class that gives him wildshape and an intelligent animal companion is better than the one with no class features.

Naw, I'd chuck Ultimate Magus at him. You need to be able to prepare 2nd level spells and spontaneously cast 1st level spells. And you get tons of fun metamagic stuff.

Epinephrine
2009-07-22, 03:54 PM
That's my perspective at any rate as to why there's friction.

About right. You want to make an archer, and the advice is that archers suck, and you should have an osmium sphere hulking hurler. Or a warlock, and just pretend you are firing arrows. Or a soulbow. Or something like a Ranger 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/something else 5...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-22, 03:58 PM
About right. You want to make an archer, and the advice is that archers suck, and you should have an osmium sphere hulking hurler. Or a warlock, and just pretend you are firing arrows. Or a soulbow. Or something like a Ranger 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/something else 5...

A. I've never seen that happen.
2. Throwing out rediculous hyperbole rarely helps,
D. The build involving ranger does appear to involve archery, so what's the problem?



That's my perspective at any rate as to why there's friction.
Friction arises due to irregularities in the surfaces of two objects moving against one another.

quick_comment
2009-07-22, 04:50 PM
{scrubbed}

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-22, 05:45 PM
{scrubbed}

I don't think I could possibly disagree with that statement more.

{Scrubbed}

Now - as to your example:

Those are fine ways to play a Samurai, sure. However it doesn't always fit the flavor of the character or the campaign. A warblade's maneuvers, although not actually as physics breaking as people sometimes want to believe, evoke a very anime-style feeling. This can be great for some campaigns; but in other cases can leave a character feeling pretty out of place. (And just as a quick note: Just because a character is inspired by a Japanese archetype, that doesn't automatically mean they're designed to fit in with an anime-style aesthetic.)

Other times, you want a simpler approach to combat, and you'd rather not be playing what amounts to a melee-spellcaster. And there should be absolutely nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing - absolutely nothing - wrong with wanting to play a sub-optimal class if it fits what you're doing. Trying to dress that up as somehow being 'un-RP' is every bit as ridiculous as claiming optimization automatically means poor RP.

To use another example: I recently decided to play a Battle Sorcerer for a gishy type character. Why? It's simple and straightforward. It does precisely what I was looking to do (a little fighting, a good bit of casting); and doesn't ask me to bend over backwards to do it.

Is it the best possible gish option? Nope. Not by a long shot. There were some truly impressive builds from a power perspective posted in the thread that helped decide me on this course of action - and it was neat seeing what people could come up with. But... as I'd said at the start of that thread: I wanted something relatively simple.

This isn't due to stupidity on my part - I can, if I'm inclined, spend days twisting and turning rules to see what kind of insane power I can come up with... but that's long since ceased to interest me. This doesn't make me a bad person or a poor roleplayer - it just means that I want something else out of my D&D than an uber-build.

There's nothing inherently wrong with optimization - like I said in my first post; the problem is when someone requests help with something, usually knowing it is un-optimal as a choice; and simply wants help making that choice shine where it can... and instead is told not to bother because X or Y are so much better.

All that I - personally - am saying; is when someone asks for help with a given concept or idea; rather than telling them that a given class sucks (they probably already know this and don't care) - help by offering some options for that class.

Acting as though one must be 'top tier' of whatever it is you're creating is what causes the friction between the two groups; when really there needn't be any. We're all here to enjoy ourselves right? We all enjoy roleplaying games, and most of us, D&D in one form or another, correct?

So simply accepting that we all want something a bit different and working around that I think would help.

There's no reason for so much tension over a game in my PoV.

Epinephrine
2009-07-22, 06:06 PM
{scrubbed}

Roland St. Jude
2009-07-22, 06:19 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here and let the mods do the modding. Thanks.

Ernir
2009-07-22, 06:33 PM
EDIT: Nevermind, misunderstood. Nothing to see here.

Quietus
2009-07-22, 08:39 PM
I don't think the problem is inherently optimization - but rather that it can (and often does) get taken to extremes - even when the author of a post requests otherwise. Often it also involves going for a completely different build than the author is after 'because it's more effective'.

True, but that situation isn't a problem with optimization itself, it's a problem with people who dont' bother reading what a person is asking for, and instead plugging in whatever rote answer they've got in their heads for that particular thing, regardless of how it fits what was requested.

Leon
2009-07-22, 10:26 PM
Dracolexi and Dragon heart mage from Races of dragon are both PrCs that a Sorcerer can get into easy

Dracolexi - 8 ranks in a class skill, 4 ranks in a CC skill and 4 ranks in a class skill
one of two feats (you get the one that you didn't choose as a bonus feat later)
Must be able to speak Dragon plus two others from the choice of Dwarf, elf, Air and Fire
Needs to be able to spontaneously cast 2nd level spells and needs to know at least one language dependent spell

1 caster level lost at 1st level but gains a draconic word (different words have different effects)
later levels gain normal spell casting and more words plus bonus Power word spells
D6 HD and 4 Skill points per level, Poor BaB, 2 poor saves one Good


Dragon Heart Mage - Requires that you be able to cast spontaneous Arcane spells, have 8 ranks in class skill
have a Draconic heritage feat and speak draconic

you lose a caster level at 1st and at 6th but pick up a breath weapon powered by spell energy
as you progress in the class you gain other draconic feats and make you breath more powerful

D6 HD, Poor BaB, 2 Good saves, 2 Skill points er level

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-22, 11:52 PM
About right. You want to make an archer, and the advice is that archers suck, and you should have an osmium sphere hulking hurler. Or a warlock, and just pretend you are firing arrows. Or a soulbow. Or something like a Ranger 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/something else 5...The advice is usually: Most archers suck. Warlock and Soulbow do the damage at range well, Clerics and Artificers can buff themselves to high heaven and do well Poly'd into an Arrow Demon, Ninjas and Rogues can do it if they have a way of making the enemy flatfooted(not easy), throwers work generally through making melee attacks at range, and Manyshot Swift Hunters do actual archery nonmagically without much effort.

Don't go into hyperbole. We try to help by giving out the best advice for making an effective character that fits the flavor. If someone says they want a Monk, we assume they want an unarmed, unarmored semi-magical melee combatant and recommend the best build for it. There's no reason not to warn them away from making a decision that they will regret later.

satorian
2009-07-22, 11:53 PM
I've played dracolexi, and second it. One of the most fun classes I've ever played. Great fluff, and nicely balanced because of the lost caster level. Unlike most lost level prestige classes, it's a good trade off. The power word spell bonus is fantastic. Also, with a reasonable intelligence, you can have been knowledge skills than the wizard, or be a reasonable skill monkey.

I also had a good time with Dragon Prophet from Magic of Eberron. You'd have to refluff it a bit to fit a non-Eberron campaign. Slightly weaker than dracolexi, but wonderful unique abilities.

Both of these can be reached at 6th level, if I remember correctly.

My build started with a silverbrow human, grabbed the draconic racial sub levels, and several draconic heritage feats. Suboptimal for power, but it was crazy fun. I was far from weak. Crazy knowledges. Nice spells and skills. Entering into draconic favor to freely empower spells was nice, as well.

Myrmex
2009-07-23, 12:29 AM
Unfortunately not, they both have lvl 3 spells as a pre-requirement.
Doesn't change the fact that incantatrix is made of awesome and win for a sorcerer though (imho - even more so than for a wizard.. as long as any of the methods to cast metamagiced spells as a standard action is allowed).

Though apparently some PrC's other than MotAO have been found - fiendblooded & dread witch, both from HoH.
Didn't have that book when I was looking for early-entry PrCs for sorcerers the last time, but I'll have to say, both of those look pretty good (and very flavorful). I'll probably be giving Fiendblooded a try sooner or later.

4 levels sorcerer + heighten spell + versatile spell caster = entry at fifth level.

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-23, 01:26 AM
There's no reason not to warn them away from making a decision that they will regret later.

That right there is kinda the problem though:

You're assuming they'll actually regret the decision. Sometimes when someone says monk - they mean monk. There's no reason to assume someone doesn't at least have a solid grasp of what they're after just because they happen to be aiming a bit low on the power spectrum.

I guess what I'm trying to suggest, as best I can - is that when offering help on a build, people think hard about what's actually being asked for. If someone wants to play Robin Hood; suggesting they go Warlock or polymorph into an Arrow Demon is probably not really fulfilling the request, ya know?

I want to add - just so everyone is clear on this - I don't dislike people who optimize; even those who do it relentlessly. I am saying what I am because I think there's too much friction on the forum over this issue, and this is what I'm seeing as part of the cause - people deciding for someone else that their concept won't be powerful enough.

Another way to look at it would be: It's fine to suggest something a little 'out there' as an alternative - but if the OP really wants, say, a Monk specifically - then do what you can with that.

Last thing - I do very much appreciate people being willing to take time to help folks out with their builds and questions and whatnot. Seriously - it's a very cool thing to do. However it can get a little frustrating from the perspective of the poster to get answers that point in a completely different direction than what was asked for - thus the problem.

It's not too hard of an issue to solve though. Judicious application of live and let live (or in this case - play and let play).

Anyway, I'm gonna shut up on the matter <x_x> I've spent too much time the last couple days arguing with people here on different topics; and while people are mostly very easy to talk with here (seriously - there's a reason I feel comfortable enough to argue my opinion here; people are mostly rather respectful, and that's a big plus) - I'm kinda tired of well... arguing >.>m I'm not a particularly confrontational person by nature <x_x> so it's kinda tiring.

Thank you all for listening - I really do enjoy the respectful debate we get around here. Other forums I've spent time on... eugh. Trying to argue in a thread like this would have resulted in <. .> well things best left un-discussed. Suffice to say I'm glad people are willing to listen even when they don't agree; and I hope I'm not too much of a pain to argue with.

Time for sleep >.>zZz

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-23, 03:31 AM
Going back to the *ORIGINAL* post:

Check Solo's Sorcerer Guide. It has all kinds of fun info for sorcerers.

Mage of the Arcane Order is the best class with level 5 entry requirements for a Sorcerer, assuming one is either a Human or Strongheart Halfling (barring Flaw nonsense). True, you expend two completely worthless feats, but you gain much needed versatility and you gain the two metamagic feats back, at later levels, when they are far more useful.

From there, you can go into Fatespinner for 4 levels, then end out with a level in Archmage for a total build of Sorcerer5/MotAO10/Fatespinner4/Archmage1 at level 20.

#Raptor
2009-07-23, 06:13 AM
4 levels sorcerer + heighten spell + versatile spell caster = entry at fifth level.

"a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."

Okay... now I'm curious. What 3rd level spells does a lvl 4 sorcerer know?

/E: Ah, nevermind... I see. A heightened level 2 spell is a level 3 spell.
Therefore, you are now able to cast level 3 spells. I am enlightened, lol.
Got a feeling that most DMs won't let you pull this one though.

And you still can't enter Incantatrix early unless you're a human/tallfellow halfing or play with flaws (Iron will + Heighten spell + Versatile Spellcaster = lvl 6).

Epinephrine
2009-07-23, 06:35 AM
The advice is usually: Most archers suck. Warlock and Soulbow do the damage at range well, Clerics and Artificers can buff themselves to high heaven and do well Poly'd into an Arrow Demon, Ninjas and Rogues can do it if they have a way of making the enemy flatfooted(not easy), throwers work generally through making melee attacks at range, and Manyshot Swift Hunters do actual archery nonmagically without much effort.

Don't go into hyperbole.

How is it hyperbole? I found threads about archers/snipers in which the suggestions ARE to use a soulbow, or a warlock. And the Ranger 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/something else 5 is from a thread looking for an archer too. And you are saying that the advice includes things like polymorphing your caster into an arrow demon. I don't think I was exaggerating.


We try to help by giving out the best advice for making an effective character that fits the flavor. If someone says they want a Monk, we assume they want an unarmed, unarmored semi-magical melee combatant and recommend the best build for it.

Fair enough, but while you might sum up a monk that way, the typical "archer" will not be overly magical (so warlocks and soulbows are probably not on the list), and may well be closer to the typical ranger-like Robin Hood or Legolas (from the movie) type. Scout? Sure. Ranger or fighter? Yeah, I see those. Rogue/Ninja? Maybe? But an artificer that polymorphs into an arrow demon stretches credibility as an "archer" build. Sure, it can use a bow, but the archer archetype certainly isn't an arcane caster who buffs himself and then assumes the form of a multi-armed bow-using demon.

Gnaeus
2009-07-23, 09:22 AM
True, but we don't necessarily know from their post whether they are aiming for the Robin Hood archer archetype, or the more generic party role of Guy who stands in back and snipes at enemies.

I only think it becomes a problem when the OP makes clear, either in his original post or in response to suggestions, that the other suggested options are not what he is looking for, and the other person tries to argue with him. Why should it frustrate someone who wants an archer, gets the Arrow Demon suggestion, replies "no thanks" and then gets around to what he is looking for.

To my mind, it is way more frustrating to get into a game after months of play and find that your character isn't performing on the level of other members of the party. That your monk or M Theurge is failing to be effective against monsters and winds up being a sidekick to other people on your team, and it is too late to change it.

Finally, forum posts are almost always all about optimization. Anyone with the barest level of logic and the ability to read can make an archer. All that requires is taking a class with martial weapon proficiency, buying a bow, and maybe picking a few ranged combat feats. How do I make a monk? ..."roll 4d6 6 times. Pick a name and write Monk 1 below it". The implied question is "how do I make an X that is effective?" Unfortunately, class imbalance often makes the answer to that question... "Play Y, and pretend you are an X". In any event, it is a question that can't be well answered without optimization.

Leon
2009-07-23, 10:08 AM
I've played dracolexi, and second it. One of the most fun classes I've ever played. Great fluff, and nicely balanced because of the lost caster level. Unlike most lost level prestige classes, it's a good trade off. The power word spell bonus is fantastic. Also, with a reasonable intelligence, you can have been knowledge skills than the wizard, or be a reasonable skill monkey.

Ive not played one, would like to though.
Always just liked the concept of it.

Am playing in a campaign that has a Dragon Heart Mage in it and the PC does quite well, doesn't always get to use her breath weapon alot given our tendency to get in and brawl with things quick (something our pyro doesn't like much either, least he makes us Fire resist items...)

Pramxnim
2009-07-23, 10:21 AM
Oh, you could point the Dragonheart Mage at one level of Dragonfire Adept in Dragon Magic to grab the invocation that makes his allies immune to his breath weapon.

Or you could just ask the DM to give him the invocation as a custom magic item or a quest reward :smallbiggrin:

Leon
2009-07-23, 11:19 AM
Oh, you could point the Dragonheart Mage at one level of Dragonfire Adept in Dragon Magic to grab the invocation that makes his allies immune to his breath weapon.

Or you could just ask the DM to give him the invocation as a custom magic item or a quest reward :smallbiggrin:

I'll suggest it but given that the PC in question tried to get a small magic item that boosted the damage once per day of the breath weapon by a D6 and was declined i don't see it happening (although he has gone against his initial ruling that we couldn't play half orcs...)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-23, 12:57 PM
How is it hyperbole? I found threads about archers/snipers in which the suggestions ARE to use a soulbow, or a warlock. And the Ranger 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/something else 5 is from a thread looking for an archer too. And you are saying that the advice includes things like polymorphing your caster into an arrow demon. I don't think I was exaggerating.

Fair enough, but while you might sum up a monk that way, the typical "archer" will not be overly magical (so warlocks and soulbows are probably not on the list), and may well be closer to the typical ranger-like Robin Hood or Legolas (from the movie) type. Scout? Sure. Ranger or fighter? Yeah, I see those. Rogue/Ninja? Maybe? But an artificer that polymorphs into an arrow demon stretches credibility as an "archer" build. Sure, it can use a bow, but the archer archetype certainly isn't an arcane caster who buffs himself and then assumes the form of a multi-armed bow-using demonAnd how are we to know what they want? They said archer. That is either Legolas, anyone who uses a bow in combat, a person who can deal damage at range all day, a person who can use weapons at range, or a person whose primary damage is at range. Without more information, all we can assume is that they will want one of those concepts and will want to be effective. If they say "I want to use a bow in-combat", that limits us, and if they want to be non-magical, we're limited further, but without them making express limitations, why should we eliminate options for them that they may enjoy?

DragoonWraith
2009-07-23, 02:34 PM
I would comment that I started a thread on Cerebremancer, said up front that I knew it wasn't optimal or even really good, and further that I was starting Psion, so no Precocious Apprentice for me, and not a single person objected or suggested I reconsider either point. And I got several very helpful tips for feats that combine magic and psionics well enough to make it worthwhile.

I really suspect it is often the OP being less clear about what he does and doesn't want that leads to them getting suggestions that diverge heavily from what they may actually want.

I'm sure that sometimes, people get overly pushy ("What do you mean you want to play a Monk? No, you don't, it's bad, seriously, trust me, you want to play..." even after the OP has clarified), but I tend to think that this would be the exception.