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Hal
2009-07-22, 09:03 AM
I'm playing in a 4e game with a 4-man party: Human Fighter, Shifter Paladin, Human Bard, and myself, a Dragonborn Rogue.

As the only striker in the group, I chose Brutal Scoundrel as my Rogue "flavor," but I'm uncertain about the choice. I figured it is supposed to give me extra damage, but is it going to be significantly more than the Artful Dodger would have?

I'm uncertain whether I'll be happier with the Scoundrel's added damage, or the Dodger's AC vs. AoOs and more "control" oriented powers. The DM has given me leverage to switch if I so choose, as we've only had one session so far. Any thoughts from the playground?

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 09:08 AM
Brutal, Smashy smashy.
can't remember why, but it does some rediculus things if you stack it withbugbear race.

there a reason wizardss has "issued a product recall" on bugbears.

seriosly i can't remember why but brutal comes across as being incredably excellent.
also maybe it might invovle the treat club as rogue sneak weapon feat.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-22, 09:29 AM
Brutal not is inherantly cooler, due to flavour, but also meshes much better with the rogues primary task. Hurt People A Lot.

The Artful Dodger has a very different flavour and use. Sure, +4 to ac is nice, but even then it doesn't make you immune to Attacks of Opportunity.
It can be good for some people, because they are quite prepared to provoke all manner of AoO's, but the only time I've used it, or considered using it, really, is in creating a cowardly goblin-rogue henchman for the party. :)

Burley
2009-07-22, 09:32 AM
Ox, you're thinking of Ruthless Ruffian, which is amazing. Clubs and Maces count as light blades, and you can add your strength modifier to damage when you use Rattling powers, which, if you're trained in intimidate, impose a -2 on attacks. Really great for a dragonborn.
You deal more damage more often. Not just when you get sneak attack.
Bugbear is great because they get Dex and Str, can wield weapons one size larger, and get an extra d6 when they have combat advantage.

For legal character classes, use half-orc.

Hal
2009-07-22, 11:53 AM
Well, I'm more interested in finding out of Brutal Scoundrel damage ever increases significantly over an Artful Dodger.

Right now (Lvl 4), the major benefit from doing so is getting +Str to SA damage (+3 for me). If this is as good as it's gonna get, I'm quite willing to trade that for the bonus to OA AC.

Does it ever get more impressive than that?

AgentPaper
2009-07-22, 12:14 PM
With a paladin in the party, I'd go artful dodger. Then, be a halfling and pick up Defensive Mobility. That's a +8 to AC versus opportunity attacks. You may as well be immune to opportunity attacks, and if the paladin or fighter has marked a few guys, they probably won't even take the opportunity attack at all. (And if they do, even better, since they will miss and take damage) If you then also get the Shadow Assassin, then ANY melee attack that misses will see that enemy taking your Dex mod as damage.

Burley
2009-07-22, 12:25 PM
Well, there's no way of making your character better via Brutal Scoundrel. However, Martial Power has a feat called Brutal Teamwork, which is a Dragonborn Rogue only power. Your STR is 16? You take the feat, and get a +2 to damage when adjacent to an ally.
See, the thing is: Brutal Scoundrel only adds a +3 to your SA, which you won't get every round. Even with a lot of feats, any DM is gonna give it to you once or twice and then try not to get smacked around. There is an Epic Tier feat for Brutals: When you have CA and forgo SA, you still add Str. Pointless unless you need +3 damage to drop a guy, but not +3d8...

Ruthless Ruffian adds the +3 to all powers with a certain keyword. Much stronger.

Mando Knight
2009-07-22, 02:29 PM
Not really. This is a Dragonborn Rogue. (that part is important)

Why? Sly Flourish. At-will that deals 1[W]+Dex+Cha. With Sneak Attack and Brutal Scoundrel, it deals 1[W]+2d6+Dex+Cha+Str. If the level 1 and 2 feats are Backstabber and Rapier proficiency, that's 3d8+Dex+Cha+Str at-will. A Dragonborn gets +2 Str/Cha, easily letting the character have a Str/Dex/Cha of 16/16/16, for a total damage modifier of +9 from your abilities at level 1, which can grow to +11 by level 11, where the damage roll without the magic weapon modifier can be 4d8+11, or 4d8+13 with Weapon Focus.

I've never run into trouble gaining Combat Advantage as a Rogue... and there aren't that many Rattling powers, anyway. For damage at level one, Torturous Strike is stronger than Termination Threat, since it deals 2[W]+Dex+Str (+Str+SA) rather than 1[W]+Dex+Cha (+Str+SA).

The main draw of Rattling powers is that they disable enemy attacks, not that they deal tons of damage. If you've got a Fighter or other Defender that you flank with frequently, Rattling becomes less useful since you've already got someone keeping the target from killing you back.

Yakk
2009-07-22, 03:06 PM
Why? Sly Flourish. At-will that deals 1[W]+Dex+Cha. With Sneak Attack and Brutal Scoundrel, it deals 1[W]+2d6+Dex+Cha+Str. If the level 1 and 2 feats are Backstabber and Rapier proficiency, that's 3d8+Dex+Cha+Str at-will.
Level 2. +1 (level) +1(item)+3 (weapon)+3(dex)+2 (CA) = +10 to hit.
23.5 average damage on a hit, 38.5 on a crit.

Rogue2: Brutal Scoundrel using dagger. Weapon Expertise (Light Blade), Nimble Blade.
Using vs Reflex attack. 18 dex 16 strength.
+1 (level) +1 (item) +4 (weapon & talent) +4 (dex) +3 (CA) +1 (expert) = +13 to hit vs Reflex.
Damage: 1d4+2d6+8 = 17.5 average damage on a hit, 28.5 on a crit.

AC of 14+L, Reflex of 12+L.

Level 3 opponent.
Rogue1 65% hit 5% crit for 17.2 damage flux, +/- 1.925 per opponent level
Rogue2 90% hit 5% crit for 17.175 damage flux, +/- 0.875 per opponent level.

Identical damage flux. Rogue2 has 1 more AC. Rogue2 deals damage more reliably. Rogue2 deals with higher level opponents better.

Rogues, in my opinion, should be built to hit rather than to hit hard. They are already (by default) hitting hard. And they can enjoy status effect riders.

Mando Knight
2009-07-22, 03:30 PM
Another thing. Ruthless Ruffian's bonus only applies when you're using a Mace or a Club. Both are subpar weapons, especially considering that a Light Blade will have an extra +1 to hit from proficiency, which can go up again with Nimble Blade. If it's a Dagger, that's a +3 bonus to hit over a mace at the cost of a smaller damage die.

If it's the over-broken Double Sword, it's a +2 to hit, +1 AC, same damage die, and access to the Vorpal enchantment at higher levels. At level 30, a Rogue can use a Vorpal Double Sword to deliver the 7[W] daily, then tack on Sneak Attack, for 12d8 + modifier damage. You're likely to roll an 8 at least once while using that attack, so it's actually 13+ d8... +3d12 if you use the item's daily power.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-22, 03:32 PM
Rogues, in my opinion, should be built to hit rather than to hit hard. They are already (by default) hitting hard. And they can enjoy status effect riders.

In general I agree, but I think the increased damage die from rapier/double sword is worth losing 1 point of attack bonus. That way your multi [w] powers actually deal noticable damage.

Asbestos
2009-07-23, 03:05 PM
If only the great club counted for Ruthless Ruffian... nothing says 'street thug' like a baseball bat.

I think this is the biggest downfall of RR, you get to choose between a +2, 1d6 weapon and a +2, 1d6 off-hand weapon... yay. Meanwhile everyone else is running around lightblading/blowdarting/handcrossbowing/garroting people.

Edit: Wait, can they SA with a sling as well?

The New Bruceski
2009-07-23, 04:52 PM
When I made a brutal rogue I offhanded a dagger as well. Grabbed one of the dual-wield feats to get some effect, and it meant I had something to throw if I needed to attack at range, or really needed an attack to hit.

NPCMook
2009-07-23, 05:16 PM
If only the great club counted for Ruthless Ruffian... nothing says 'street thug' like a baseball bat.

I think this is the biggest downfall of RR, you get to choose between a +2, 1d6 weapon and a +2, 1d6 off-hand weapon... yay. Meanwhile everyone else is running around lightblading/blowdarting/handcrossbowing/garroting people.

Edit: Wait, can they SA with a sling as well?

Garrote, with the feat, lets you use it for sneak attacks. I did a build with this and it was pretty nasty. Garrote Rogues get incredibly nasty and awesome