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ReluctantReaper
2009-07-22, 07:40 PM
I was just wondering what pun-pun was exactly and where this term came from. I have heard some things about Pazuzu? i think but im not sure. I really just want to get information on Pun-Pun and find out exactly what it is.

Vaynor
2009-07-22, 07:43 PM
Behold his glory. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

Dogmantra
2009-07-22, 07:44 PM
Pun Pun is a theoretical exercise designed to break 3.5 D&D.

There are different versions, but most involve being a Dragonwrought Kobold, summoning Pazuzu and abusing alternate forms to give yourself arbitarily high stats. A thread on the Gleemax forums (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

Signmaker
2009-07-22, 07:49 PM
Protip: Unless you want blunt force trauma to the back of your head, don't try and present this to your DM.

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 07:51 PM
ADDENDUM TO THE PROTIP: The blunt force trauma may not necessarily be to the back of your head.

VirOath
2009-07-22, 07:53 PM
Protip: Unless you want blunt force trauma to the back of your head, don't try and present this to your DM.

I think "Death By Cheetos" is a much more appropriate response.

Guancyto
2009-07-22, 07:56 PM
ADDENDUM TO THE PROTIP: The blunt force trauma may not necessarily be to the back of your head.

I'm pretty sure combining Pun-Pun and Venerable Dragonwrought is one of the only D&D-related offenses that will earn you a groin punch.

ReluctantReaper
2009-07-22, 07:58 PM
so how would one exactly become it? would you have to have aggrement with your dm or do you just spring what you want to do on them?

Arakune
2009-07-22, 08:00 PM
so how would one exactly become it? would you have to have aggrement with your dm or do you just spring what you want to do on them?

You don't. It's an theorical exercice.

Cracklord
2009-07-22, 08:01 PM
Got all the kids you want, do you?
Well, the best way is to make what looks like a perfectly reasonable character, then reveal at the first game you will infact be playing Punpun, then start playing true munchkin style and throw a tantrum when they won't let you.

AstralFire
2009-07-22, 08:01 PM
so how would one exactly become it? would you have to have aggrement with your dm or do you just spring what you want to do on them?

You do not. You do not.

Pun-Pun is purely a thought exercise, made to go "haha, look at this series of poorly finished but easily properly understood rules which can be abused for the purpose of laughter." It is the D&D equivalent of being endowed like a tribal fertility statue, or 90's Madonna outfits - scary, striking, suggestive, and completely nonfunctional.

ReluctantReaper
2009-07-22, 08:05 PM
ha..alright i can understand now that i am reading the article and i wouldn't even dare to pull this because of previous stated remarks

Ravens_cry
2009-07-22, 08:09 PM
No one makes Pun-Pun. Any who darest shalt be smitten by DEUS MACHINA, that is, HE OF THE CARDBOARD SCREEN, unto death.
Don't try it. It was a completely hypothetical build meant to test the limits of Dungeons and Dragons. It is not mean to be played even in the most power gaming of circumstances.

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 08:20 PM
Of course if you did make punpun their would in theory be no in game way for hte dm to remove your character from the game.

well maybe an overdiety.
that would shut down punpun's divine rank, unless punpun out ranked him also.

Personally i prefer the look of the War Hulking Hurler.
Lattest builds can use neutron stars as a thrown weopon.
and reguallyly do.

Guancyto
2009-07-22, 08:25 PM
well maybe an overdiety.
that would shut down punpun's divine rank, unless punpun out ranked him also.

All you need to counter a being whose abilities are nigh-infinite is a being whose abilities are genuinely infinite, or someone whose nigh-infinity outweighs theirs.

I think those are called "the DM" and "the real Pun-Pun ascended a long time ago and smites you for trying" in this case, though.

Mando Knight
2009-07-22, 08:35 PM
well maybe an overdiety.

i.e., the DM.

An overdeity has the following as a Salient Divine Ability:
Kill Anything: The Overdeity instantly removes the offending creature from the multiverse. Usually, this ability manifests as an oversized avalanche of rocks falling onto the target's head. This ability may be used at-will, and offers no Saving Throw, and bypasses all immunities.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-22, 08:38 PM
Pun Pun is a theoretical exercise designed to break 3.5 D&D.

There are different versions, but most involve being a Dragonwrought Kobold, summoning Pazuzu and abusing alternate forms to give yourself arbitarily high stats. A thread on the Gleemax forums (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801)

Dragonwrought isn't needed for Pun-Pun. Hell, a Rilkan or Skarn can pull it off. You just need to be a Reptillian of some kind. The Kobold part is tradition.

chiasaur11
2009-07-22, 08:39 PM
i.e., the DM.

An overdeity has the following as a Salient Divine Ability:
Kill Anything: The Overdeity instantly removes the offending creature from the multiverse. Usually, this ability manifests as an oversized avalanche of rocks falling onto the target's head. This ability may be used at-will, and offers no Saving Throw, and bypasses all immunities.

Singular.

Enemy.

Nothing, even if it bypasses immunities, besides one individual(And whatdya know, it's Pun Pun himself) can hurt the recipient.

Basically, the best method of prevention is saying someone did it already, and doesn't look kindly on copycats.

Break
2009-07-22, 08:41 PM
You do not. You do not.

Pun-Pun is purely a thought exercise, made to go "haha, look at this series of poorly finished but easily properly understood rules which can be abused for the purpose of laughter." It is the D&D equivalent of being endowed like a tribal fertility statue, or 90's Madonna outfits - scary, striking, suggestive, and completely nonfunctional.

Permission to sig this? It's probably the best explanation of Pun-Pun I've seen yet.

SirKazum
2009-07-22, 08:50 PM
"the real Pun-Pun ascended a long time ago and smites you for trying"

So I'm not the only one who would like to run with the premise that Pun-Pun is not only possible in-game, but already happened? When I first saw Pun-Pun, I thought "hey so he becomes pretty much an omniscient and omnipotent entity. There ya go, a Creator-grade god in full. I think if a character like that actually existed, he'd get bored with the multiverse (since nothing in it presents a challenge for him) and would move on to create a whole new multiverse. Hey, maybe that ALREADY happened, and that's how the 'current' multiverse REALLY came to exist. And that might be the exact reason why Pun-Pun cannot be made - because he already exists, he'd know if someone was on the way to becoming Pun-Pun (being nigh-omniscient and all), and would snuff that character out immediately and before it ascends to power."

It bears knowing, though, that Pun-Pun is only nigh-omniscient. The Omniscificer, though, is actually omniscient, and that at 4th character level. Though it sounds even more ridiculous than Pun-Pun.

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 09:04 PM
if punpun has one round of clemancy.
=time to change from a simple Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3.
into PunPun.http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/editor/menupop.gif
He could out rank the overdiety.
using his TRUELY INFINITE knowledge religeon skill to determine the exact divine rank of the overdiety.
actully he wouldn't even need to do that since he would just wait unit he could cut his cloned overdiety that he's stealing divine ranks from could be cut with just 11 damage, (which he could do exactly) and doing this twice, he would then have twice the divine rank of the overdiety.

Thus nothing the overdiety could do can affect him, as he's an overdiety of higher divine rank.

Similarly a new punpun can defeat an existing punpun via simialr method

aje8
2009-07-22, 09:18 PM
Similarly a new punpun can defeat an existing punpun via simialr method
No because the previous punpun would stop them mid acencion.

Just for the record, it is possible to beat pun-pun if he doesn't stop you from going back in time.... there was a character called the Omnisifier that did this.... also I think there was another called the Terminator.

Basically, Wizards CO Optimization boards does ALOT of stupidly borked things.

Also for the record, Pun-Pun is a level 1 kobold paladin.

Zeta Kai
2009-07-22, 09:27 PM
You know, I've seen the Pun-Pun stuff so many times, & it gets linked a lot, so I've had a chance to read the build & its alternatives. Often, people will mention the Hulking Hurler & the Omniscificer as other broken builds, but without citing the actual builds. Does anyone have a link to either of those?

I've been waiting for someone to provide a link, but everyone who brings them up does so offhandedly, like they're universally known & understood.

Limos
2009-07-22, 09:32 PM
I thought Pun Pun was supposed to be a Level 1 Kobold Wizard, the build I saw required a snake familiar to do the infinite ability score portion.

aje8
2009-07-22, 09:34 PM
I thought Pun Pun was supposed to be a Level 1 Kobold Wizard, the build I saw required a snake familiar to do the infinite ability score portion.
It's a little feat I like to call Obtain Familiar.

Anwyay, I believe I can find a link one sec and I'll edit it in.

The Terminator (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=546499).

And.... the Omnsifier link in Surreal's links is broken.... ugh. I might be able to find it still, but I'm not guarenteeing anything. I can't find it at all.

But here is a link to campaign smashers (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897351) which is a link to most of the broken TO the CO opimizaition have come up with.

oxinabox
2009-07-22, 09:39 PM
No because the previous punpun would stop them mid acencion
I said, assuming one round of clemancy.
by definition of myu staqtemnet, nothing stops newpunpun for one round
Punpun could accesnd in one round IIRC.

Gralamin
2009-07-22, 09:57 PM
You know, I've seen the Pun-Pun stuff so many times, & it gets linked a lot, so I've had a chance to read the build & its alternatives. Often, people will mention the Hulking Hurler & the Omniscificer as other broken builds, but without citing the actual builds. Does anyone have a link to either of those?

I've been waiting for someone to provide a link, but everyone who brings them up does so offhandedly, like they're universally known & understood.

Omniscificer (http://web.archive.org/web/20061112212706/boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546612) and an alternate Link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18404827)

Hulking Hurler (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=142565)

Douglas
2009-07-22, 10:25 PM
So I'm not the only one who would like to run with the premise that Pun-Pun is not only possible in-game, but already happened?
No, you're not. I have plans to eventually make my own homebrew setting, and there is a significant possibility it will feature Pun-pun as the overdeity of rules exploits. He ascended eons ago, and his nigh infinite mental stats allowed him to realize the nature and purpose of the world as a game. He decided to use his power to ensure fair play and improve the game's quality.

Munchkin player: I use my Candle of Invocation to call an Efreeti and force it to grant me three Wishes. I Wish for three more Candles of Invocation. Yay infinite Wish loop!
DM: You burn your candle and a Gate to the elemental plane of Fire opens. Instead of the Efreeti you were expecting, however, a kobold steps through. He picks up the candle, says "Nice try, but no", and steps back through the Gate. It closes behind him.

Mando Knight
2009-07-22, 10:35 PM
OR... "The efreeti conjures up three melted stumps of wax, then grins before it returns to the plane of Fire."

The wish did not specify what condition the candles had to be in. :smallwink:

MickJay
2009-07-23, 05:05 AM
Or, you receive three candles with tags saying something like "3cp. Special, long burning, scented candles, new and improved formula, manufactured by Invocation Chandler, 7 Aston Road, Lower Dribbles, Faerun".

Eldan
2009-07-23, 05:18 AM
Or, for short "Property of Sir William of Invocation".

TSED
2009-07-23, 06:10 AM
My preferred method of Pun-Pun-shut-down would be to the following:

1) If they wish to become a Scaled One native to Toril, they become a non-sapient viper.
2) If they don't wish the above, they are not a Scaled One native to Toril, and therefore cannot do this to themselves. Or their familiar.

This wouldn't work in FR, though, so I guess I'd have Real-Pun Pun show up and go "Hey man, what's up? So, yeah, I can't really let you do that. There's this grand plot going off and, well, you being omnipotent really isn't part of it. So you can hand me that candle or you can be condemned to a literal eternity of sucking on a Permanent Symbol of Pain with a DC of a million to the power of a billion."

Killer Angel
2009-07-23, 07:08 AM
Pun-Pun is purely a thought exercise, made to go "haha, look at this series of poorly finished but easily properly understood rules which can be abused for the purpose of laughter."

Very true. The problem is, while Pun-Pun is a theoretical exercise, Planar Sheperd and Incantatrix are playable PrC... :smalltongue:

Random832
2009-07-23, 07:11 AM
There are some questionable aspects of the build. For example, it's not clear from the description of Manipulate Form that it can grant spell-like abilities of arbitrary spells that are not in any book as spell-like abilities. His NI ability scores depend on doing this with Giant Size to get his Str up, and the divinity bit depends on, of course, Ice Assassin.

(Challenge: Come up with a way that doesn't require this)

quick_comment
2009-07-23, 07:35 AM
There are some questionable aspects of the build. For example, it's not clear from the description of Manipulate Form that it can grant spell-like abilities of arbitrary spells that are not in any book as spell-like abilities. His NI ability scores depend on doing this with Giant Size to get his Str up, and the divinity bit depends on, of course, Ice Assassin.

(Challenge: Come up with a way that doesn't require this)

Diplomacy!

Hextor, will you invest me with all your divine power? Pretty please?

FlawedParadigm
2009-07-23, 07:40 AM
Heh, in one of my games, the players met Pun-Pun. He was wandering around a low level dungeon, whistling. The players (who were only loosely familiar with the concept of Pun-Pun, and know me to be the sort who doesn't usually introduce joke characters) were puzzled as the what a kobold was doing wandering around alone. They agreed he "probably had class levels." Might have been an understatement.

Anyhow, before attempting an ambush, the Druid pointed out that the various goblinoids knew the party was there, so there wouldn't be a kobold *whistling* without good reason. Before the party could "ambush" the kobold, the Druid stepped out and hailed it.

"Well met!"
The kobold turns, the whistling ceasing. "Indeed."
"How fare you?"
"Bored...actually...do you play chess?"
The Druid...and, in fact, all the players, pause for a moment at this point. I don't think any of them had decided if their characters were the chess-playing sort. Can't say I blame them, it's not the kind of detail I typically ponder during character creation.
"Ah...a little, yes. From time to time, as it were."
"Oh...pity. I was hoping for a challenge. You wouldn't mind humouring me with a game, would you?"
"Not at all."
So the kobold pops around the corner for a minute, and just as the party starts to wonder if they're being set up for an ambush, their host returns, chess board in tow. I think the outcome of the chess match is the very definition of a foregone conclusion, of course. Anyhow, they finish, and the kobold is packing up.
"Thanks for the game, it's so rarely that I get to play. Usually people just try to kill me."
The players give each other uncertain stares for a moment. It was not lost upon them that he said "try to". Suddenly, a light goes on behind the eyes of the Rogue player.
"Hey...what's your name?"
"Oh...well, Pun-Pun" he says, stepping through the cavern wall and vanishing.
Cue laughter all around the table.

I think the real joke was in Pun-Pun's reply to the Druid's first question. Heh.

Totally Guy
2009-07-23, 08:06 AM
Who named him Pun-pun? Is the name a joke somehow?

Dogmantra
2009-07-23, 08:08 AM
Dragonwrought isn't needed for Pun-Pun. Hell, a Rilkan or Skarn can pull it off. You just need to be a Reptillian of some kind. The Kobold part is tradition.

Hence the "most" :smalltongue:

(internal monologue: Phew! Dodged a bullet there...)

SirKazum
2009-07-23, 08:32 AM
I said, assuming one round of clemancy.
by definition of myu staqtemnet, nothing stops newpunpun for one round
Punpun could accesnd in one round IIRC.

Actually, AFAIK, it takes 5 rounds of clemency. Counting the exact moment Pun-Pun acquires the ability to transform into a sarrukh (either by getting that third Master of Many Forms level, or whichever other method) as Round 0, here's how it goes:

Round 1: Transform into Sarrukh.
Round 2: Manipulate Form on familiar to grant it the Manipulate Form ability.
Round 3: Transform back into a kobold. After that, the familiar (with a delayed action if necessary) uses Manipulate Form on Pun-Pun to grant him the Plane Shift ability.
Round 4: Plane Shift to the Ethereal. Familiar MFs Pun-Pun and grants Genesis.
Round 5: Genesis, creating a demiplane with accelerated time, where 1 second on the outside corresponds to a bajillion years inside or something ridiculous like that. The familiar then MFs him to grant Manipulate Form itself (finally!), but by this point it's largely academic.

From then on, keep powering up inside the demiplane until satisfied, except that divine ranks are unavailable. (Or maybe not, I'm not quite sure how Ice Assassin works.) But then, as necessary, step out of the plane for single rounds at a time while already having nigh-infinite stats of all sorts, which means you won't have much trouble with deities and all anyways.

kjones
2009-07-23, 08:54 AM
Who named him Pun-pun? Is the name a joke somehow?

The reason he's a kobold is because he was originally conceived as a bid to create a powerful kobold character for some CharOp competition.

As for the name... beats me.

SirKazum
2009-07-23, 10:40 AM
I guess it's a pun. *ba-dum tshhh*

Signmaker
2009-07-23, 10:58 AM
I guess it's a pun. *ba-dum tshhh*

Because puns make you groan, and the thought of anyone trying this makes you groan too?

Lord Loss
2009-07-23, 11:11 AM
There is a very simple, efortless way for your DM to kill PUNPUN

Dm: Looking over sheet . Bob, I hate to tell you but you can't play PUNPUn.

Bob: No! I WANT PUNPUN HE MY FRIEND YOU'RE BEING RACIST! YOU HAVE A THING AGAINST KOBOLDS! AND GODS! AND YOU'RE LETTING EVERYONE BUT ME PLAY WHAT TEH YWANT BECAUSE-

Dm rips up sheet

Bob: So, I'll make a kobold psion-

Dm gives evil eye

Bob:-er, Human Fighter called Roderick Drakeheart?

Civil War Man
2009-07-23, 11:40 AM
One of these days I want to play a Kobold High Priest of Pun-Pun. He lives to spread the good word of the Kobold that managed to achieve godhood through clever manipulation of the laws of the universe.

He would be a cleric with the Knowledge (ie Rules Lawyering) and Trickery (ie Gaming the System) domains. It's not even remotely a min-max munchkin combo, but I believe there is an old Buddhist philosophy where a person can not lead others to Nirvana without forsaking it themselves.

I imagine it's been done before, but the trick is to play it completely straight. Anyone can play it up doing a silly Cult of Banjo deal, but it takes special dedication to do straight-faced roleplaying a worshipper of a character optimization thought exercise.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-23, 01:14 PM
I've often considered playing a lvl 12 Druid/MoMF with a Viper companion. Never go Pun-pun, just to see the reactions of the players who know I can.

Blue Ghost
2009-07-23, 01:40 PM
Is there a link to the 1st level Pun-Pun build? I've never seen it before.

quick_comment
2009-07-23, 01:42 PM
Is there a link to the 1st level Pun-Pun build? I've never seen it before.

You use this ultra cheesed template that gives you the wild shape abilities of a 14th level druid or something like that.

Divine Minion I think its called.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-23, 01:53 PM
You use this ultra cheesed template that gives you the wild shape abilities of a 14th level druid or something like that.

Divine Minion I think its called.That's the 4th level Pun-Pun. You need the template and MoMF levels. The 13th level one just needs the MoMF levels. The first level one is a Kobold Paladin who summons Pazuzu and is granted a wish in exchange for being moved to NG.

TSED
2009-07-23, 02:18 PM
Actually, AFAIK, it takes 5 rounds of clemency. Counting the exact moment Pun-Pun acquires the ability to transform into a sarrukh (either by getting that third Master of Many Forms level, or whichever other method) as Round 0, here's how it goes:

Round 1: Transform into Sarrukh.
Round 2: Manipulate Form on familiar to grant it the Manipulate Form ability.
Round 3: Transform back into a kobold. After that, the familiar (with a delayed action if necessary) uses Manipulate Form on Pun-Pun to grant him the Plane Shift ability.
Round 4: Plane Shift to the Ethereal. Familiar MFs Pun-Pun and grants Genesis.
Round 5: Genesis, creating a demiplane with accelerated time, where 1 second on the outside corresponds to a bajillion years inside or something ridiculous like that. The familiar then MFs him to grant Manipulate Form itself (finally!), but by this point it's largely academic.

You forgot about the rounds spent unavoidably unconscious.


From then on, keep powering up inside the demiplane until satisfied, except that divine ranks are unavailable. (Or maybe not, I'm not quite sure how Ice Assassin works.) But then, as necessary, step out of the plane for single rounds at a time while already having nigh-infinite stats of all sorts, which means you won't have much trouble with deities and all anyways.

Ice Assassin completely copies the creature you are Ice Assassining, except you have complete control over it. This is why you get divine ranks for them.

The way the ability is worded is that it can make ANY ABILITY EVER, it does not need to be in a book. It could be "Pun Pun Wins (ex): Anything that thinks of challenging Pun Pun's claim to the cheesethrone instantly dies and cannot be resurrected by any means as its soul is destroyed. Alternately, Pun Pun can use this ability on any target he wishes as a free action." The CharOp boards just tended to ignore the fact that it could do THAT and relied on published abilities to get everything.

Random832
2009-07-23, 02:27 PM
The way the ability is worded is that it can make ANY ABILITY EVER, it does not need to be in a book. It could be "Pun Pun Wins (ex): Anything that thinks of challenging Pun Pun's claim to the cheesethrone instantly dies and cannot be resurrected by any means as its soul is destroyed. Alternately, Pun Pun can use this ability on any target he wishes as a free action." The CharOp boards just tended to ignore the fact that it could do THAT and relied on published abilities to get everything.

I don't think so. "...may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it. " My reading is it has to be a _real_ extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability*, not that it can write its own description.

*And not even just any spell as a SLA, which pretty much kills the concept as written.

chiasaur11
2009-07-23, 02:29 PM
I don't think so. "...may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it. " My reading is it has to be a _real_ extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability, not that it can write its own description.

Well, the first post on the subject mentioned that there was no such restriction, but then focused on written abilities as the long, more fun, road to breakitude.

Doc Roc
2009-07-23, 04:34 PM
Errr... Dude, any spell exists as both an SLA and supernatural ability due to dweomerkeeper, the abilities of which he can naturally get. Pun-Pun, in one of his many carefully articulated builds (there are four or five last time I looked, and three general flavors of ascension) works. It's really that simple.

I should know, I worked with T_G for a while on the Terminators Problem. Cool stuff.

TSED
2009-07-24, 06:17 AM
I don't think so. "...may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it. " My reading is it has to be a _real_ extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability*, not that it can write its own description.

*And not even just any spell as a SLA, which pretty much kills the concept as written.

Exactly. The example 'Pun Pun Wins (Ex)' is an extraordinary ability, ergo Manipulate Form can grant it. It does not say that it requires an extraordinary ability that exists; heck, there are creatures that the Sarrukhs made which have new extraordinary and supernatural abilities that did not already exist.



This is no fun, however, and is exactly why they tend to find all the little loopholes to make everything broken anyways.

Random832
2009-07-24, 07:36 AM
Exactly. The example 'Pun Pun Wins (Ex)' is an extraordinary ability, ergo Manipulate Form can grant it.

No it's not - just because you wrote (Ex) that doesn't make that true.

TSED
2009-07-24, 07:38 AM
No it's not - just because you wrote (Ex) that doesn't make that true.

Pardon? You just denied my claim without providing any support. Your argument is baseless and holds no authority.

Random832
2009-07-24, 07:47 AM
Pardon? You just denied my claim without providing any support. Your argument is baseless and holds no authority.

My point was that it is a legitimate interpretation that if it's not published (in an allowed book), it's not a real ability, and therefore can't be used with MF.

"heck, there are creatures that the Sarrukhs made which have new extraordinary and supernatural abilities that did not already exist." Well, then, all those abilities are published, aren't they? :smallcool:

TSED
2009-07-24, 08:00 AM
My point was that it is a legitimate interpretation that if it's not published (in an allowed book), it's not a real ability, and therefore can't be used with MF.

It doesn't mention anything about the ability being published, already existing, ever existing, or never existing. It is a non-factor. I personally prefer your interpretation as it is much more fun, but it is not required. People need to realise that Pun Pun really is just that strong.

In Short: Pun Pun is literally God Mode + console hacks + altering the source code. You CAN do it, but most of the time it'd just be funner to simply God Mode the game instead of getting into the game, pressing 'A' on the keyboard, the end boss exploding and the end cinematic rolling. Both are possible, but I doubt any one has ever done the latter in an RPG.


"heck, there are creatures that the Sarrukhs made which have new extraordinary and supernatural abilities that did not already exist." Well, then, all those abilities are published, aren't they? :smallcool:

Well, they are NOW.

Telonius
2009-07-24, 08:01 AM
My way of fixing the whole mess: acknowledge that it already happened. Within any setting I DM, Pun-Pun has already ascended. However, since he granted himself an arbitrary amount of Wisdom and Intelligence, as well as an arbitrarily large number of ranks in Knowledge (self), he realized that he's actually just a thought exercise in a fictional game world, and is willing to go along with it for the laughs. For all intents and purposes, he is the overdeity. To keep the game moving, he jealously guards power levels anywhere close to his own, and prevents anyone else from getting that kind of power. To do this, he has given himself the Anticipate Cheese (Ex) ability.

If a player tries to gain any truly cheesy ability, a rock carrying a small kobold drops from the sky, narrowly missing the character. Pun-Pun usually laughs and tells the character, "Hey, that's a good one! I can do it, you can't. Pick something else. Here, have this Phylactery of Brokenness. Check it if you're ever unsure." (Phylactery is in the shape of an acorn). "Now go have fun, and don't make me come down here again."

ghost_warlock
2009-07-24, 08:26 AM
There's no mess to fix if you don't play Forgotten Realms and/or simply say the Sarrukh doesn't exist in the campaign world.

Tamugetsu
2010-09-10, 03:51 PM
I read the post about Pun-Pun on the wizards forums, and I noticed someting. I checked the Fiendish Codex I, which covers the abyss, and when you summon Pazuzu, he can (and typically does) cast detect good, detect law, tounges, and detect thoughts (DC 22). He also always uses sense motive, for which his modifier is 37.

Correct me if I am wrong, but suddenly creating a lawful neutral god is NOT something that a Demon Prince wants, right? While it does say that he almost always provides aid, he DOES NOT always do so.

Also, the Pun-Pun in question is level one. He poured ability scores into intelligence, so wisdom probably took a hit. Regardless, the DC for 'Zuzu's detect thoughts is a 22, which we can assume our int-focused friend can make only on a 20, if at all.

So here's how I think it would go:
1) Pun-Pun says "Pazuzu" three times in a row.
2) In the following minute, Pazuzu casts detect law and detect good and finds that the summoner is Lawful Good.
3) Still within the one minute time limit, Pazuzu, despite his longing to corrupt a Lawful Good creature (perhaps they are a paladin, his favorite!), is always cautious of those who would trap him. He thus uses his spell-like ability detect thoughts. Multiple times. He's paranoid, as he should be, and he knows that it can be resisted. (This means that even if Pun-Pun rolls a 20 the first time to resist, Pazuzu will know, because he will read no thoughts. He can cast this at will, so no matter how many 20s are rolled, Pazuzu will eventually read Pun-Pun's surface thoughts, which, in someone in Pun-Pun's situation, likely include: "Mwahaha, I will soon be a God!" or something to that effect.
4) Pazuzu will know what's up, and will do anything in his considerable power not only to prevent Pun-Pun's ascent, but to either corrupt or eliminate Pun-Pun.
5) The DM will laugh and tell the player that because they decided to make Pun-Pun, they must now play as him for the rest of the campaign.
6) Everyone will laugh, except Pun-Pun and his player, who will cry.

If what I said is incorrect, please tell me so. I have been playing D&D for less than a year, so it is very possible that I am forgetting something important.

The Glyphstone
2010-09-10, 04:01 PM
Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy.