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DamnedIrishman
2009-07-22, 08:02 PM
Okay, so... the mook took 15 damage. Honestly, DI... if you were level 20 I think you still might not be as powerful as the rest of the party. I, for one, don't like optimization and powergaming and min-maxing, but... I also like to throw tough encounters at the party, and dislike when one of the party members is kindof useless. Go to the RPG boards, start a thread about optimizing a level 10 halfling swashbuckler with an intelligent weapon, take some advice, and remake the character how you choose- you don't have to follow all the advice if it doesn't fit the flavor you're going for. I don't want you to become "uber-powerful", I just want you to be able to do stuff and feel like you're contributing.


Umm... that kind of says it all really. A little help here, please? There's a link to my current character sheet in my signature - Edwick the Magnificent.

There's also a big shiny clickable link here. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=126160) Is there no hope? Say it ain't so.

EDIT:


Just... do whatever you want with it. Change whatever you want following the build rules (hp rolls and stats and all that.) Change feats, classes, whatever.

Grynning
2009-07-22, 08:18 PM
The best way to boost a Swashbuckler without changing too much is to multiclass as a Rogue and take the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. Swash 3/Rogue X is the standard recommendation. You'll still be very mobile and the Sneak Attack will really help your damage along.

May consider switching Cha and Int if allowed just for the extra skill points and damage from insightful strike. Not a big deal but something I would do.

Edit: If you really want the character to be more versatile and have more options, you could re-work them as a Tome of Battle martial adept character. That's a bit more drastic, but if you want to do that there's plenty of folk around here who know TOB in and out.

Vortling
2009-07-22, 08:25 PM
You may also want to look into acquiring the Shadow blade feat if you are allowed Tome of Battle as adding both your Dex and Int to damage is useful. It would require you switching weapon types though.

Thorin
2009-07-22, 08:41 PM
I don`t think you need a high charisma

From a not-roleplaying point of view, you should put your charisma score into con for longer survival; take 3 levels of swashbuckler and the rest in rouge (you can put a some skillpoints in social skills to regain the lack of charisma you put into constitution) and of course take daring outlaw.

You should max hide and silent move and be more a "one attack" kind of player, scoring an attack when the opportunity arise without risking your neck 24/7.

Look for the feat that lets you add your sneak attack in every critical you score.

IF you ALSO put the concept of the character, or what you want for him, we may even advise you to optimize without changing completly the PC fluff

lsfreak
2009-07-22, 08:50 PM
3 levels of swashbuckler, 2 levels of swordsage (2nd level should be 8th level or later), the rest in rogue. Take Assassin's Stance and Island of Blades, pick up Daring Outlaw and Shadow Blade feats. You end up getting Str, Int, and Dex all to your damage rolls, more-than-full sneak attack, the full progression of bonus AC from swashbuckler, and Wisdom to your AC. Grab utility maneuvers (Cloak of Deception, Counter Charge) to kelp you deal damage. If you take this route, the damaging maneuvers beyond maybe Wolf Fang Strike won't be worth much in the long run.

Another option is to just go swordsage. Focus on Diamond Mind maneuvers, they fit in perfectly with a swashbuckler theme. Some of the shadow hand (sneaky attacking), setting sun (use their weaknesses against them), and tiger claw (agile warrior) ones fit the theme as well. The Gem Nightmare Blade, Insightful Strike, and the save-based ones are all good, but there's a lot of them that fit in with the general swashbuckler theme.

playswithfire
2009-07-22, 09:00 PM
This mirrors a lot of what has already been said, but one option is to go

Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible Blade 3 (online original 10 level version (http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_invisible_blade.htm))/Swordsage 2 (not in that order obviously)

Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 2/Swordsage 1/Invisible Blade 2/Swordsage +1/Swashbuckler +1/Invisible Blade +1

Feats
1: Point Blank Shot (required)
Flaw: Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk
3: Two Weapon Fighting
6: Daring Outlaw
9: Shadow Blade (or ITWF, your choice)
with Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus(tiger claw weapons) coming free

INT to AC twice (once added to dex up to invisble blade level, once by swordsage and Kung Fu Genius)
STR, INT and DEX (with shadow blade) to damage with the daggers you'll be dual-wielding
with Assassin's stance active: 7d6 sneak attack
BAB 8, saves at 4/10/5
4/10/5

AslanCross
2009-07-22, 09:01 PM
If you want to keep your current stat rolls, I'd take Warblade instead of Swordsage. If you're going to be lightly armored, might as well get the Wis bonus to AC. Focus on Diamond Mind.

You could just swap around your stat rolls. I'd echo what others have mentioned: Cha isn't necessary.

Grynning
2009-07-22, 09:03 PM
3 levels of swashbuckler, 2 levels of swordsage (2nd level should be 8th level or later), the rest in rogue. Take Assassin's Stance and Island of Blades, pick up Daring Outlaw and Shadow Blade feats. You end up getting Str, Int, and Dex all to your damage rolls, more-than-full sneak attack, the full progression of bonus AC from swashbuckler, and Wisdom to your AC.

This is a sound build. Unfortunately the current character has no Str bonus and a Wisdom penalty.

DI, it looks like you used a 32 point buy, so here's what I would suggest:

Str 14 (12), Dex 16 (18, 20 after level 4 and 8 stat bump), Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10

Still only has 10 Con, but if done with the Swash 3/Rogue 5/SS 2 build it gives you the bonuses where you need them.

playswithfire
2009-07-22, 09:24 PM
This is a sound build. Unfortunately the current character has no Str bonus and a Wisdom penalty.

That's what Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk and a somewhat friendly DM are for; make it INT-based instead of WIS.

Keld Denar
2009-07-22, 10:59 PM
Hmmmmm, going with what you have, I'd suggest this

Strongheart Halfling Swordsage10
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 15
Cha 10

Feats
1st Shadow Blade
Bonus Adaptive Style
3rd Weapon Finesse
6th Craven (Champions of Ruin)
9th Gloom Razor

Maneuvers with mobility/swashbuckling emphasis

1st
Burning Blade
Wind Stride
Saphire Nightmare Blade
Counter Charge
Wolf Fang Strike
Shadow Blade Technique
Stance - Island of Blades

2nd
Clinging Shadow Strike
Stance - Hunter's Sense

3rd
Mountain Hammer

4th
Baffling Defense
Swap Wolf Fang Strike for Sudden Leap

5th
Insightful Strike
Stance - Assassin's Stance

6th
Strength Draining Strike
Swap Burning Blade for Flesh Ripper

7th
Bounding Assault

8th
Obscuring Shadow Strike
Swap Wind Stride for Ruby Nightmare Strike

9th
Disrupting Blow
Stance - Shifting Defense

10th
Shadow Stride
Swap Mountain Hammer for Elder Mountain Hammer

Standard readied maneuvers would be: 8
Baffling Defense
Strength Draining Strike
Elder Mountain Hammer
Disrupting Blow
Bounding Assault
Shadow Stride
Sudden Leap
Obscuring Shadow Strike

This gives you awsome mobility from Bounding Assault, Shadow Stride, and Sudden Leap, action denial (which can save your hide) with Disrupting Blow, Baffling Defense, and Obscuring Shadow Strike, decent damage with Elder Mountain, and debuffage with Strength Draining Strike (which combines well with any wizards in your party who like to cast Ray of Enfeeblement). Your main combat stance will be Assassin's Stance for the sneak attack dice which play on your Craven feat. You can Bounding Assault into Sneak Attack position, or Shadow Stride in, strike, and Sudden Leap away. If you want more debuffage, swap in Flesh Ripper, which, combined with Strength Draining Strike, can give your foes a decent penalty to hit. If you want more defensive power, swap in Counter Charge and Clinging Shadow Strike to play off Gloom Razor's ability to grant invisibility. If you need to bring the boom, swap in Insightful Strike and Ruby Nightmare Blade. Totally versatile, and Adaptive Style allows you to restock on maneuvers and adapt to the type of combat you are engaged in.

Doing this, you'll be all over the battle field, a real dynamic fighter, scoring viscious precise strikes when your foe least expects it. Against single foes, you'll be nearly invincible and powerful. Care about getting swarmed though, as your AC won't be super high.

For skills, max out Jump, Tumble, Sense Motive, and Concentration. That leaves you with 2 open skills, which you can invest cross class in Diplomacy to be more personable, invest in Hide/Move Silent to suddenly pop up where you aren't expected, get Listen so you can drop some eaves and be better at resisting ambushes, put in Intimidate to be a "Dread Pirate Roberts", or even invest in Profession: Sailor to captain your own boat. Just make sure you have those first 4 skills maxed out.

How does that look? Only took me about 15 min to throw together. Tweak it to your own specific desires.

Gorgondantess
2009-07-22, 11:04 PM
As the DM who advised all this.... well, frankly I just want him to be able to keep up with whatever the party conjurer will pull out of his ***.
HOWEVER.
This is an RP focused game. The character in question is kindof... stupid in an insane way. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CloudCuckoolander) We want a swashbuckling dandy here... so, martial-expert-swordsage type characters are kindof out of the question.
(DI, I'm just trying to help, if you feel I'm portraying your character inadequately please say so.)

Skorj
2009-07-22, 11:11 PM
As the DM who advised all this.... well, frankly I just want him to be able to keep up with whatever the party conjurer will pull out of his ***.
HOWEVER.
This is an RP focused game. The character in question is kindof... stupid in an insane way. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CloudCuckoolander) We want a swashbuckling dandy here... so, martial-expert-swordsage type characters are kindof out of the question.
(DI, I'm just trying to help, if you feel I'm portraying your character inadequately please say so.)


Ask a CharOp question, get a CharOp answer. :smallyuk: At least you didn't get "become a dragonborn Kobold" yet ...

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-22, 11:31 PM
So my crazy advice is this:

Complete Warrior Samurai 10th level
Max out Intimidate
Pick up Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark at 6th level
Pick up Weapon Finesse
And then some Skill Focus Intimidate

Intimidating bigger things then you gives you a -4 penalty, but Samurai gives you a +4 bonus.

What you do in combat is wade into the middle of it, and unnerve your opponents with your witty banter. As a standard action you can make a demoralize check against all opponents within 30 feet. If you succeed they cower for one round and are shaken for the next.

Now, what does a Samurai have to do with Swashbuckling?

The Swashbuckler fights mooks. Mooks who are scared of the swashbuckler. Who because of this only attack one or two at a time. With the Samurai Imperious command build that is what you can cause.

Keld Denar
2009-07-22, 11:33 PM
ok, my 2nd piece of advice, become a 1/2 White Dragonspawn Dragonwraught Kobald Loredrake Sorcerer and buy off the LA and undergo the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage. Now you are a 14th level Sorcerer at ECL10 and are only missing a couple of XP and a little gold for all of it.

Nah, just kidding. Or am I?

Really, my Swordsage is all mechanical. He could play the character however he wants. The abilities, with the exception of Shadow Stride and maybe Mountain Hammer, are all in combat maneuvers, just as a feint, parry, or riposte might be. Except they are given mechanical weight, which normal D&D doesn't.

So yea. He can keep RPing the Swordsage I put forward the same as he did the Swashbuckler he was playing, the biggest difference will be the fact that he will actually CONTRIBUTE in combat, with fun and interesting options. For all of its flavor, the Swashbuckler class MECHANICALLY favors a "I stand there and hit it again till it stops moving" kind of play, like a Fighter or Barbarian. And honestly, flavor is the most easily mutable aspect of the game. Just because the character is a Sword"sage", doesn't mean he has to speak in cryptic phrases like Mr Miyagi or shout out his manevuers when he executes them like some anime or the Giant's own cartoon characters. He can be a bumbling unlikely hero, a brooding anti-hero, a cunning knaive, or a savvy pirate all with the same mechanical build.

When someone says Swashbuckler, the first thing that comes to mind is a dodgy combatant who weaves in and out of his foes, striking seldom but striking viciously when he does with some elaborate flair when he can afford it. The Swordsage I built exemplifies that concept mechanically. The rest is up to the player do bring to the table on their own.

quick_comment
2009-07-22, 11:50 PM
Swordsage does swashbuckler very well, between diamond mind, setting sun and shadow hand. Dance around, Throw the mooks into each other and then make a deadly lunge at the bad guy. (Absolute Steel stance, Setting sun throw maneuver, followed up by a nightmare blade maneuver.)

Warblade does it pretty well too, with the adding int to all sorts of special attacks.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-22, 11:58 PM
The best way to boost a Swashbuckler without changing too much is to multiclass as a Rogue and take the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. Swash 3/Rogue X is the standard recommendation. You'll still be very mobile and the Sneak Attack will really help your damage along.

Psst. Other way around for fighters. Rogue 3/Swash X. Swash stacks with Rogue for Sneak, has full BAB and other assorted semi-useless stuff. The only thing you get from Rogue are skills, which you don't even need as a front-line fighter.

My suggestion is Rogue 3/Swash 5/Swordsage 2, taken in that order. End Result: Sneak +4d6, IL of 6(and thus Assassin's Stance for Sneak +6d6). Take Shadow Blade and get +INT+DEX to damage. Your BAB is a 'mere' +7/2, but that's acceptable for a fighter type. Drop improved critical and combat reflexes for Shadow Blade and, well.. Frankly anything else. Combat Reflexes sucks when you have no reach. Maybe take Adaptative Style.

lvl 1 fighter
2009-07-23, 12:33 AM
As the DM who advised all this.... well, frankly I just want him to be able to keep up with whatever the party conjurer will pull out of his ***.
HOWEVER.
This is an RP focused game. The character in question is kindof... stupid in an insane way. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CloudCuckoolander) We want a swashbuckling dandy here... so, martial-expert-swordsage type characters are kindof out of the question.
(DI, I'm just trying to help, if you feel I'm portraying your character inadequately please say so.)

Cool. Neat. Got it for ya.

Drop these feats:
Improved Initiative
Combat Reflexes
Force of Personality
Improved Critical

Take these feats:
Combat Expertise
Deadly Defense
Improved Disarm
Acrobatic Strike

Change your skills so that you qualify for these Skill Tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab (Tumble 12)
Back on Your Feet (Tumble 12)
Speedy Ascent (Climb 5)
Twisted Charge (Balance 5, Tumble 5)
Walk the Walls (Climb 12, Jump 5)

The AC you lose from dropping your shield is made up by Combat Expertise. When you use Combat Expertise, you get +1d6 damage. When you tumble past someone, you get +4 attack. You can Disarm people - and you're a Swashbuckler - so you do it with style.

The skill tricks add to your movement abilities and enhance the ones you have. Now you can charge across difficult terrain and change direction. Need to run up a wall to hop back over a enemey's head, tumbling while you do so, then disarm him when you land? You can do it.

Speedy Ascent lets you climb that rigging faster to reach the crows nest. Land ho!

But what about Force of Personality?


Insensible, vain, slight delusions of grandeur. Tends to overestimate own abilities.

Turns out you may have a quick wit, but it doesn't go very deep. If you catch my meaning.

-----

It's not a powerful upgrade by any means - but it adds some functionality and flavorful abilities to the character that fit with the concept, without requiring a complete overhaul.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-23, 12:53 AM
The best way to boost a Swashbuckler without changing too much is to multiclass as a Rogue and take the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. Swash 3/Rogue X is the standard recommendation. You'll still be very mobile and the Sneak Attack will really help your damage along.

Yes. :)
This is often what I do.

Draz74
2009-07-23, 01:30 AM
The best way to boost a Swashbuckler without changing too much is to multiclass as a Rogue and take the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. Swash 3/Rogue X is the standard recommendation. You'll still be very mobile and the Sneak Attack will really help your damage along.

Good line of thought, but Swash 4 / Rogue 16 may be better. It gets a 4th iterative attack. Rogue 4 / Swash 16 may also be better. Much fewer skill points, but still decent, and your BAB will end up at +19 instead of +16 and you'll have more hit points.

PId6
2009-07-23, 01:37 AM
No experience with CharOping a swashbuckler, but I'd just like to say: Wow, you actually have combat already? And with someone NOT in the party? Amazing!

*ahem* That will be all.

Skorj
2009-07-23, 01:42 AM
Suggestions like The Guilded Duke's and Lvl 1 Fighter's really sound good to me for a RP-centric campaign (or, heck, any campaign). Sometimes people get too hung up on connecting the RP to the mechanics. (I want to be a swashbuckler, and there a class called swashbuckler, so I must take levels in that, right?)

Figure out the sort of thing you want to be doing in combat, from an RP perspective, then be open to any sort of build that lets you do that sort of thing, even if it wasn't even the base class you expected. In this case, Lvl 1 Fighter's suggestion sounds very cool to me, but only you really know your character concept. But don't reject builds based on Samurai, for example, out of hand. Sometimes the unexpected approaches lead to great extensions to you character concept, if you look into the skills/feats and ignore the names.

«Gives Keld Denar "The Look"»

Keld Denar
2009-07-23, 02:54 AM
«Gives Keld Denar "The Look"»

What'd I do now?

:(

Gaiyamato
2009-07-23, 04:57 AM
Good line of thought, but Swash 4 / Rogue 16 may be better. It gets a 4th iterative attack. Rogue 4 / Swash 16 may also be better. Much fewer skill points, but still decent, and your BAB will end up at +19 instead of +16 and you'll have more hit points.

Definately Go the lower Rogue level. I agree totally on this.
Start with level 1-4 Rogue (first level skill points) and then go Swashbuckler.

Much better than the reverse for most things.

I'd look at DEX to Y for some of your feats as well and then focus the stats as heavily as you can on DEX.

Also as an extra trick you can use the Fighter variant from UA that trades fighter feats for SA.

So go Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 8/Fighter 8

Take Daring outlaw (at level 6) and Daring Warrior (Level 15).
You count as a level 12 Rogue + Seperate level 8 rogue for SA.
You count as a level 20 Swashbuckler for Grace and Dodge.
You count as a level 16 Fighter for qualifying for fighter feats.

The only flaw with that is that you are required to get weapon focus and weapon spec.
But that isn't all bad for a purely melee type character.

Gorgondantess
2009-07-23, 11:54 AM
If you take daring outlaw, Swashbuckler would be flat out better than the sneak attack fighter variant, giving slightly more abilities, same HD, same BAB, and more skill points.

Master_Rahl22
2009-07-23, 12:09 PM
If you don't mind TWF, Swashbuckler is a great starting point for eventually taking Dervish from CWarrior. Swashbuckler3/Fighter2 works as a jumping off point, although you might need to either be human or take some flaws to get into Dervish that early because of the feats required. Dervish is an amazing PrC and most consider it worth taking all 10 levels of. It leads to an extremely mobile, TWF damage machine that simply ignores AoO and goes wherever he needs to go to get the job done.

AstralFire
2009-07-23, 12:17 PM
Dervish is the best designed way to get a mobile warrior without resorting to Tome of Battle. It's not necessarily the most powerful, but it's easy and intuitive to get some good usage out of while using a minimal amount of books, easy to reflavor while still possessing a basic flavor, gives you something to do besides "stand in one square and full attack".

It also supports many styles of combat - Two-Weapon (Scimitar), Power Attack (Falchion), Reach (Spiked Chain/Glaive/etc), Tripping (Spiked Chain/Glaive/etc).

If Miss DM is still reading this, consider switching the damage/weapon type supported by the Dervish class to support whichever weapon he uses - it can just as easily be piercing (with rapiers) or bludgeoning (with maces) without being broken.

If your strength was higher, I would recommend the thoroughly enjoyable Knockdown feat from Sword and Fist, but alas.

Telonius
2009-07-23, 12:36 PM
I've posted this build a few times before. Could be nice - has a very distinct pirate feel to it. Only issues you might have are the skill points, and DM handwaving some of the prereqs (i.e. access to a ship) - I originally designed this for a Pirate NPC, the Dread Pirate Mara. :smallbiggrin: Substitute your intelligent rapier for the keen rapier.


...EDIT: Hm, just saw the "stupid" part. Might not fit your character after all, though that relatively low Wis could fill in for it rather easily.

Halfling

Starting Stats:

Str (12-2) 10
Dex (12+2) 14
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 12
Rogue1 Quick Draw (1st level feat), Sneak 1d6

Jump 4, Balance 4, Bluff 4, Intimidate 4, Profession (Sailor) 4, Tumble 4, Sleight of Hand 4, Appraise 4, Use Rope 4, Swim 4
Rogue1/Swashbuckler(CWar) 1 Weapon Finesse, Extreme Leap skill trick (from skills)

Balance 5, Bluff 5, Jump 5, Tumble 5, Profession (Sailor) 5, Intimidate 5, Extreme Leap Skill trick (CSco)
Rog2/Sws1 Evasion (Rogue), Tumbling Crawl Skill Trick (from skills), Freerunner (CSco) (3rd Level Feat) = Nimble Charge skill trick

Tumbling Crawl skill trick, Appraise 6, Profession 6, Intimidate 6
Rog2/Sws2 Grace +1, +1 Dex

Profession 7
Rog3/Sws2 Sneak 2d6, Hidden Blade skill trick

Profession 8, Bluff 8, Intimidate 8, Appraise 8, Hidden Blade skill trick
Rog3/Sws3 Insightful Strike (Sws), Daring Outlaw (6th level feat) = +3d6 sneak, +1 Dodge to AC
Rog4/Sws3 Uncanny Dodge, Sneak +4d6
Rog4/Sws3/Dread Pirate(CAdv)1 Two-Weapon Fighting, +1 Dex
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/Scarlet Corsair(Stormwrack)1 Improved Feint (Corsair), Improved TWF (9th level feat)
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/ScC2 Sneak +5d6
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/ScC3 Corsair's Feint

Key Equipment: +1 Keen rapier, +1 Keen kukri, +2 Mithral chain, Gloves of Dex +4, Three-Cornered Hat, Spyglass, Parrot

So, at 11th level, that will amount to:

Str 10
Dex 16 (+4 gloves) = 20
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 12

+10 BAB
Fort +6, Ref +14, Will +6
Single Attack: 10 +5(dex) +1 (small) +1 (magic) = +17
Full attack: 15/15/10/10, d4+4 on the rapier, d3+4 on the Kukri, both at 15-20x2.
Sneak +5d6
AC = 10 + 5 (dex) +2 (magic) +4 (Mithral Chain) + 1 (Dodge) +1 (Size) = 23


Hidden Blade, Quick Draw, and Corsair's Feint will help the character get as many sneak attacks as possible. Nimble Charge and Extreme Leap will help the character navigate a pitching ship, or a barroom brawl. Relatively high (for a Rogue-ish combatant) attack bonuses help him connect. Insightful Strike puts his intelligence to use.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-23, 04:00 PM
One thing to point out: Relying on precision-based damage without a method of bypassing immunity to above damage boost, is tantamount to Fail.

UMD is your friend. Since you are using a single weapon, your other 'weapon' can be a Wand. Specifically, either Golemstrike, Gravestrike, or Vinestrike, depending on which flavor of immunity you are facing.

Keld Denar
2009-07-23, 06:03 PM
So, I guess you don't like my Swordsage idea?