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MGuy
2009-07-22, 08:55 PM
With Pathfinder coming out next month and the core classes having received an overhaul I am revisiting some classes I had considered to overpowered to use in my normal game. As things are now they should be equal to what Paizo has done though I was never sure of their balance in the first place.

Ishvalan Crusader (Anti Mage): This is a class made with Fullmetal Alchemist in mind. I actually first saw this class on another site though the site is gone now.

HD: 1d8

Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge: Arcana, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Swim

Skill Points: 4+Int

Weapon Proficiency: Simple

Base Attack Progression: Good (As Fighter)
Good Saves: All (As Monk)

Bonus AC: As Monk/ +Wisdom Modifier as dodge bonus to AC (In no armor and carrying no more than a light load)

Move Speed Bonus: As Monk Progression

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Arcane Curse 1d6, Acrobatics, Mage Slayer, Mage Hunter

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Arcane Resistance, Track, Witch Hound

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Arcane Curse 2d6, Path Finder, Mettle

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Evasion, Unforgiving

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Arcane Curse 3d6, Mobility, Mage Finder

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Chain Curse, The Smell of Magic

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|Arcane Curse 4d6, Break Magic

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Earthbolt, Improved Evasion

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Arcane Curse 5d6, Nondetection

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Spell Resistance, Disruption

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|Arcane Curse 6d6, Nowhere to Hide

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8|Disruption Wave

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|Arcane Curse 7d6, Nowhere to Run

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|Organ Rending, Blank Thoughts

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|Arcane Curse 8d6

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|-

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Arcane Curse 9d6

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|-

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Arcane Curse 10d6

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Mage Knightmare[/table]

Arcane Curse: Imprinted tattoo, deals escalating 1D6 (+1d6 every 2 levels after the first, 10d6 at 19th) worth of damage on a successful touch attack vs anything.
-Ignores any AC bonuses granted by spells/spell-like abilities
-Ignores DR at 5th level+ and damage turns to D8s vs creatures capable of casting or that have spell-like abilities.
-Ignores Hardness at 10th level+ and damage turns to d10s vs creatures capable of casting or that have spell-like abilities.
-At 15th level+ Ignores Deflection Bonuses and damage turns to d12s vs creatures capable of casting or that have spell-like abilities.
-Counts as a Spell Like Ability Caster level equal to the level of Crusader. Cannot be dispelled and is uneffected by antimagic fields and similar spells and effects (Such as a Beholder's Ray)
-Magic Items get a save
-Targeting an item works as normal
-Hits ethereal creatures without any mischance

Acrobatics (Ex): Bonus Feat. Gained at 1st Level.

Mage Slayer (Ex): Bonus Feat. Gained at 1st Level.

Mage Slayer: +1 on Will saves, Casters cannot cast defensively while threatened by you, Your caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities that aren't granted by this class or your race are reduced by 4

Mage Hunter: You treat anything vulnerable to your Arcane Curse as your favored enemy.
-+2 to Bluff, Perception, Insight, and Survival checks made when using these skills against creatures that fit.
-Gains a +2 on damage rolls on such creatures (bonus damage is applied to the curse)
-The bonuses increase by 2 every 5 levels.

Arcane Resistance (Ex): Gained at 2nd Level. Adds Cha to saves vs spells and spell-like abilities

Track (Ex): Bonus Feat. Gained at 2nd Level.

Witch Hound(Su): Gained at 2nd Level. Your eyes glow. This means that you are constantly treated as having detect magic active and considered to be concentrating on it at no action cost. (Caster level is equal to Crusader level). Additionally whenever magic is cast within 100ft of your position you get a perception check (DC: 10+Spell level or vs Bluff if the caster is trying to hide it or is using Silent or still spell). If successful you know that magic was cast and the location of the caster. Though this is only a brief flash of insight and the caster may move from their position or may conceal themselves to hide their identity.

Mobility (Ex): Bonus Feat. Gained at 2nd Level.

Mettle (Ex): Gained at 3rd Level.

Pathfinder: Gained at 3rd level. Never becomes lost due to poor visibility or difficult terrain. Is not hampered by difficult terrain

Evasion (Ex):Gained at 4th level.

Unforgiving: Gained at 4th level. If an opponent you threaten does any of the following, you may make an Attack of Opportunity on him/her: Dismiss a Spell, Direct/Redirect an Active Spell, cast a Quickened or Swift Spell, makes a Turn / Rebuke attempt. If damage, your opponent looses the spell / action attempted unless he/she makes a Concentration check vs. DC (10 + damage). Additionally any creature that is vulnerable to your Arcane Curse treats all squares you threaten as difficult terrain.

Mage Finder: Gained at 5th level. You may disregard any Miss Chance that results from spells or spell-like abilities.
-When fighting a creature under the effect of Mirror Image, you automatically know which one is real
-Your caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities that aren't granted by this class or your race are reduced by 4

Chain Curse: Gained at 6th level. When using the curse the Crusader may channel some damage to another target (2 secondary targets at 11th, and 3 at 16th)
-Secondary target must be within 30ft
-Must make a another touch attack vs 2nd targets
-Secondary target(s) take only half damage
-Can be chained off of stationary objects (must touching the structure or the ground)

The Smell of Magic: Gained at 6th level. The range at which you can detect a spell being cast increases to 200ft. Additionally you gain a very special scent ability. It works as scent does regularly except you can only smell casters and ambient magic. (Gives you a +4 to the track DC when tracking casters) You may make a Spellcraft check when you run into an area in which magic has recently been cast (DC: 20+spell level) If successful you know what spell was cast.

Break Magic: Gained at 7th. Upon successfully striking with the Arcane Curse the crusader may dispel (as greater dispel, CL equal to crusader level) any ongoing magical effect.
-Can be used against stationary spell effects (walls, extra dimensional holes, etc) on a touch
-A Crusader is unaffected by a harmful spell that he/she touches in their dispel attempt unless they fail the dispel check. (IE The crusader can touch the wall of fire during the dispel attempt but if the check fails the crusader would take damage as they regularly would)

Earthbolt: Gained at 8th level. Can, as a standard action, send curse through ground at a target. Additionally your threatening range is increases to10ft vs creatures capable of casting or that have spell-like abilities.
-Range: 25ft+5ft/2 levels
-Reflex halves damage (DC: 10+1/2Crusader's HD+Cha Mod)
-Is chainable

Improved Evasion: Gained at 8th level

Nondetection: Gained at 9th Level: Is treated as if they are constantly under a nondetection spell

Disruption: (Ex): Starting at 10th level, if you hit a creature capable of casting spells or spell like abilities with your Arcane Curse in melee they must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Con mod) or be dazed for one round. This is chainable.

Spell Resistance: Gained at 10th level. Gains Spell Resistance equal to 10+Character level.

Nowhere to Hide: Gained at 11th level. The range at which you can detect a spell being cast increases to 300ft. Additionally when you successfully make a Spellcraftcheck to identify a spell, and you beat the DC by 5 or more you may now lock onto the caster of the spell. The effect works like Locate Creature except you do not need to have been within 30ft of the caster before. The effect lasts 10min/level. Can only follow one target at a time. This is a supernatural ability.

Disruption Wave Dained at 12th Level. May use Disruption ability on chains and in conjunction with Earthbolt. Additionally your threatening range increases to 15ft vs creatures capable of casting or that have spell-like abilities.

Nowhere to Run Gained at 13th Level. When a Crusader designates a creature as a target for his Nowhere to Hide Ability his target is treated as though they were under the effects of Dimensional Anchor. This is a supernatural ability.

Dedicated: Becomes immune to mind-affecting effects.

Organ Rend: Gained at 14th level. A crusader imposes a -8 Penalty on their attack (or whatever modifier one makes for a called shot to the head/heart/stomach in your game). If the attack hits the victim must make a fortitude save equal to 10+1/2 the crusader's HD+their Charisma modifier or die. This is a Spell-Like Ability
-this only works on creatures that can cast spells or use spell-like abilities
-If the save succeeds the victim still takes damage as normal
-targets that are immune to critical hits are also immune to this ability

Mage Knightmare: Gained at 20th level. Becomes immune to arcane spells. Your threat range increases to 20ft vs creatures capable of casting spells and creatures that use spell-like abilities.


Restrictions: loses bonus movement/dodge bonus/AC bonus from wearing armor or while carrying a medium load
-Can't cross into a casting class, Loses all arcane mark abilities


I want to add abilities for levels 10+ but I don't know what I should add to it. I'm thinking Immunity to enchantment effects. Feel Free to give suggestions.
Also I keep the idea that you can switch the bane powers to effect psions and divine magic (I.E psychic hunters or god haters) depending on the spin you want to put on it.

MGuy
2009-07-23, 02:27 PM
Made a few tweaks here and there.

MGuy
2009-07-23, 09:37 PM
Finalized formatting.

Origomar
2009-07-23, 09:58 PM
It needs a slight nerf here and there, such as considering its a anti mage class its anti class should be like a ranger or barbarian. It is a very interesting class and seems very well thought out but as with most home brewed things(i think) its slightly overpowered. So i think it should get some nerfs on the lines of


1. arcane curse does 1d4 damage and does double damage against casters.

2. Pick a save bonus that should be reduced to poor(i think reflex would be the best option)

3. Make its BAB equel to that of a clerics or monks

4. Change track to something that only tracks magical beings or magic users

5. Also not sure what the acrobats feat is in there for

6. Also the bonus to move speed seems a bit much, maybe makes a new table that is half the monks speed


Not EVERY nerf should be applied but without some nerfs i think the class would be a little too good against everything.

MGuy
2009-07-23, 10:26 PM
It needs a slight nerf here and there, such as considering its a anti mage class its anti class should be like a ranger or barbarian. It is a very interesting class and seems very well thought out but as with most home brewed things(i think) its slightly overpowered. So i think it should get some nerfs on the lines of


1. arcane curse does 1d4 damage and does double damage against casters.

2. Pick a save bonus that should be reduced to poor(i think reflex would be the best option)

3. Make its BAB equel to that of a clerics or monks

4. Change track to something that only tracks magical beings or magic users

5. Also not sure what the acrobats feat is in there for

6. Also the bonus to move speed seems a bit much, maybe makes a new table that is half the monks speed


Not EVERY nerf should be applied but without some nerfs i think the class would be a little too good against everything.

I understand what you're saying. The first place I posted this class at complained about it being too weak. So I added abilities that seemed to make sense at the time. I will probably keep the arcane touch damage at least at a d6 maybe double that. I'll wait for other responses on that note.

I think that the class deserves all good saves considering the concept but I agree with you on reducing the Bab (I originally had it as a cleric's). I'll wait for more comments on that before changing it.

Acrobatics is a skill in PFRPG.

No one has noted the speed as a problem (Even in the original iteration. Some people said that it really didn't do anything to help the class as a a whole. I'll wait for more comments on it before I change it.

Origomar
2009-07-23, 11:45 PM
I understand what you're saying. The first place I posted this class at complained about it being too weak. So I added abilities that seemed to make sense at the time. I will probably keep the arcane touch damage at least at a d6 maybe double that. I'll wait for other responses on that note.

I think that the class deserves all good saves considering the concept but I agree with you on reducing the Bab (I originally had it as a cleric's). I'll wait for more comments on that before changing it.

Acrobatics is a skill in PFRPG.

No one has noted the speed as a problem (Even in the original iteration. Some people said that it really didn't do anything to help the class as a a whole. I'll wait for more comments on it before I change it.

My thought on reducing the arcane damage is because again its weakness should be against other melee warriors. And since they generally dont have very high touch AC's its more of an anti melee fighter thing than it is an anti caster thing.

MGuy
2009-07-23, 11:49 PM
I understand that but a fighter's, unlike a mage's, attack of opportunity (which melee touching does provoke) will hurt really bad and actually has a chance to hit.

fuzzywolf
2009-07-24, 01:20 AM
Seems more than a little op to me, on several fronts, but I like the class idea a lot.

1. Monk saves with a fighter BAB is too much, imo. I'd give it either a fighter BAB with one strong save (perhaps will), or a 3/4 BAB with two good saves (fort and will, probably, since it gets improved evasion.

2. Being able to go anti all magic seems a little too much. Abilities should work against either divine, or arcane or psionic.

3. Movement speed increase seems out of flavor, as does acrobatics.

4. Immunity to all arcane spells, even at 20, seems too much, especially when they get spell resistance anyway. Spell resistance of 30 (which the crusader would have at 20th level), means that half of all spells from a like level caster fail, unless they take spell penetration feats. Maybe give them a choice of which school to become immune to, but specify that area effects work normally against them.

5. Mage finder might be tuned down a tad. A 5th level mage only has an average of 3 mirror images, anyway. Instead of making it automatic, maybe give the crusader a reroll on any miss chance due to magic, then increase the number of rerolls per round they can take at later levels.

6. Chain curse. How can the crusader make a touch attack against a target 30 ft away? Did you mean a ranged touch? Perhaps dc for secondary targets could be 10 + half crusader level + wis mod, or something along those lines.

7. Break magic should be level 11 instead of 9. Pure mages can get greater dispel at 11.

8. Arcane curse is hugely overpowered. The idea is good, and I also loved the effect in FMA, but this is artifact level power. At level 20, arcane curse does an average of 44 damage against casters, ignores deflection ac, hardness, dr and might dispell their buffs, too. A level 20 mage with 10 constitution has an average of 42 hitpoints, and a fort save of +6, up to +11 if they have a +5 item of fortitude saving. With a basic save, that means the mage fails against the daze almost 75% of the time. You will usually 1-shot a mage. If they're buffed to the gills (started with 12 con, using a +5 con item, and getting 5 con from endurance), they'd have 102 hp. Sounds impressive, but they still go down in 3 rounds, tops.

MGuy
2009-07-24, 01:43 AM
1) I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I had it that way though I was prodded to increase it.

2) As of right now it only works specifically against arcane creatures (or at least thats my intention). Though for the flavor in any one's personal setting I mention that they may change the abilities to effect divine casters and psions.

3) I don't see how the movement speed is out of flavor though I think I will take out acrobatics.

4) I see your point. My intention is to make it like a Golem's immunity to magic.

5) I disagree with you hear. This is a mage assassin. I think that he should be able to hit all the time under these conditions. At least as long as they are using the curse.

6 and 7: I don't have any qualms about changing these.

8: I like that it is over powered at 20th level (do you know how many instant kills and bull$&!tery a wizard can pull at 20th level?) though I may scale back the damage dice. I want this class to be a nightmare for any wizard to have to take on. Plus a smart mage will put up barriers and summons, self haste, transform and have spell resistance (this does not necessarily pierce it; it is a spell-like ability after all). More importantly I'm looking more at the bigger fish when I think of this class at high level. The demon overlords, aberrations, and mystical beasts that have fort out the wazoo and can punch much harder without a spell than the robed wizard. This class does not have an ability that allows it to make its touch attack without provoking and doesn't have any defensive bonuses other than the monk styled ones (which aren't going to be very high). Whats more (though I'm still working out the mechanics) I may give it an ability to touch without provoking and issue a heavy "no arcane magic item use" on the class. Currently however I can't fathom a way to do this without making the class suffer. Though I have had suggests given in the area of Vow of Poverty but I don't really like to use it.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-24, 07:49 AM
4. Immunity to all arcane spells, even at 20, seems too much, especially when they get spell resistance anyway. Spell resistance of 30 (which the crusader would have at 20th level), means that half of all spells from a like level caster fail, unless they take spell penetration feats. Maybe give them a choice of which school to become immune to, but specify that area effects work normally against them.

By level 20, it's very rare that any arcane caster fails a CL roll against SR: there's a feat to let you take 10 on it, a swift action spell for +10 on your next CL check, several spells to lower SR, and many other ways to mitigate it.

Also, keep in mind that "spell immunity" or "immune to magic" or whatever in 3.5 is just effectively infinite SR; any SR: No spells would still affect him, so arcane casters aren't completely useless against him.