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RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-22, 09:02 PM
OK so today i was reading about the debate about weather or not undead are effected by silent image. I'm with the camp that says they are. I was talking to a fellow GM about it and well we put down a hypothetical situation. I wanted to here what you guys think.


So a player is running from a Standard issue MM skeleton(mindless undead), Said player is a gnome illusionist. He is running down a 10 ft X 10ft corridor. He casts silent image to make a Iron wall appear in the corridor blocking said Skeleton. Assuming that there is enough space for the skeleton to slow down would the skeleton slow and stop? Would he keep running because that was the last known direction of the enemy?

I say he would stop my fellow GM said it would depend on if the skeleton passed his will save.

what do you guys think?

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-22, 09:06 PM
He needs to interact with the wall before he can make a save. Until he actually inspects it, the skeleton would believe that there is a wall of iron in front of him, and would stop as rushing head-first into a steel wall without specific orders to do so goes against its nature.

Merely seeing the wall isn't considered interacting with it. It needs to either touch it or inspect it from a distance.

Tallis
2009-07-22, 09:13 PM
I'd say they are affected (as in they see it). How they react to it would depend on intelligence. A mindless undead might not react at all to it. Undead are, however immune to mind affecting illusions. I don't have the books in front of me, so I'm not sure which class they are. Phantasms maybe?

In the specific instance you mention the skeleton would probably stop because it lost sight of it's prey. If it couldn't stop and ran through it then it would probably ignore the fact that it was ever there.

Clementx
2009-07-22, 09:15 PM
+1 And since it is mindless, it has no reason (in both senses of the word) to disbelieve it. Both mechanically (for not interacting with it) and RP-wise (not having the intellect to consider walls appearing as unusual), silent image would stop undead flat.

Illusions (which are non-mind-affecting) work better on mindless creatures for that reason. Intelligent ones are prone to calling bull**** on suddenly appearing objects, risking a headlong rush on the chance its not actually a conjuration, or sensing auras to see if it is illusion.

erikun
2009-07-22, 09:25 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion

Figment Illusions (like Silent Image) work on undead just as well as everything else. They produce a false sensation that, unless the target makes its Will save, is perceived as real. Figments are not Mind-Affecting, unless they say so. A Silent Image wall would stop an undead.

Glamer Illusions (like Invisibility) make something seems like something else. They work on undead just as well as any other creature. An undead cannot see an Invisible person any more than a commoner, but my be able to detect one by other means. Glamers are not (usually) Mind-Affecting.

Pattern Illusions (like Hypnotic Pattern) are Mind-Affecting, and so have no affect on undead.

Phantasm Illusions (like Phantasmal Killer) are Mind-Affecting, and so have no affect on undead.

Shadow Illusions (Shadow Conjuration) produce real effects, and so work on everything. "Disbelieving" a Shadow simply reveals what it is made of - it doesn't stop it from hurting you. (Shadows are created from shadow-stuff, rather than whatever they seem to be made from.)

Salt_Crow
2009-07-22, 09:25 PM
Undeads are immune to mind-affecting effects, which include charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects. As Silent Image (and many other Image spells) are 'figment', they'd normally see and interact with them.

However, as their command last given was to "chase down the intruders" (or along the line with that), I wouldn't make them stop or even slow down, but they'd attempt to slam into the wall. They cannot, by RAW, draw conclusions and therefore will not be able to link "a wall appears suddenly" and "if I don't stop I'll ram into it and hurt myself".

As the wall is not created by Shadow-descriptor (which would require a will save even for a mindless undead to see if they really run into it) they'd just run past them as normal, with no save for disbelief required. It's just like falling through a illusory floor. Unless of course, the wall/floor looked like it would give way and it was programmed so (which requires at least concentration or higher-level illusion).

Yep, so my point is: being immune to mind-affecting effects does not render one to be immune to figments (-image) and shadow (shadow- thingy). However, as skeletons are mindless, they would not stop to think the logical way around the wall.

Clementx
2009-07-22, 09:32 PM
Yep, so my point is: being immune to mind-affecting effects does not render one to be immune to figments (-image) and shadow (shadow- thingy). However, as skeletons are mindless, they would not stop to think the logical way around the wall.
If that is your definition of mindless (which is not supported by RAW), you can defeat every skeleton by turning a corner. It will continue to bash itself, bypassing its DR, in an attempt to reach you through the wall. What you are describing is something without a Wis score, who cannot sense its environment. If its got Wis -, its not a creature. Its a robot, and not the cool construct ones, either. Its a $5 kit you solder together in middle school which runs in straight lines.

Salt_Crow
2009-07-22, 09:38 PM
If that is your definition of mindless (which is not supported by RAW), you can defeat every skeleton by turning a corner. It will continue to bash itself, bypassing its DR, in an attempt to reach you through the wall. What you are describing is something without a Wis score, who cannot sense its environment. If its got Wis -, its not a creature. Its a robot, and not the cool construct ones, either. Its a $5 kit you solder together in middle school which runs in straight lines.

OK, I admit I exaggerated a bit ;)

RagnaroksChosen
2009-07-22, 09:59 PM
He needs to interact with the wall before he can make a save. Until he actually inspects it, the skeleton would believe that there is a wall of iron in front of him, and would stop as rushing head-first into a steel wall without specific orders to do so goes against its nature.

Merely seeing the wall isn't considered interacting with it. It needs to either touch it or inspect it from a distance.

how do you define its nature? I guess the question is how mndless do we get?

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-22, 10:05 PM
I think that a skeleton who sees an illusionary wall will not attempt to go walk through it. After all, does it attempt to walk through real walls? No, because it possesses a Wisdom score. Skeletons are aware enough of their environment to recognize a wall when they see one and know they can't (usually) just walk through them.

Here's what the SRD has to say about nonintelligent creatures:

Intelligence
Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

I think "I can't walk through walls" qualifies as simple instincts in this case, unless you want your skeletons and zombies to be literally bouncing off the walls in your campaign setting.


Here's a couple other questions for everyone to think about:

Can skeletons open doors? Only if you think it falls under the simple instincts clause, I would say. And only for simple doors that aren't locked.

If you make a successful Hide check, can a skeleton search for you? No, because they always fail Intelligence checks (such as untrained Search checks). The best they can hope for is to wander about and get lucky rolling a Spot check the next time they come by, but that depends on them being instructed to keep looking for intruders.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-22, 10:30 PM
how do you define its nature? I guess the question is how mndless do we get?

There's a difference between Vermin-mindless and Veritable. Baring scent, a Rat would never even attempt to pass through a wall, even if it was an Illusion. It sees a wall, it takes a different path.

If it used its sense of smell, it would be allowed a Will save. It would be interacting with the wall in some way (be it smelling that the wall has no scent, or that your scent passes clean through the wall unhindered).

Zombies/Skeletons lack this ability, and must be instructed to do anything in regards to the wall unless it didn't manage to stop itself from running through it.If it did run through it would speed back up to full chase immediately, because it doesn't need to rationalize that it just passed through a barrier (or that said barrier is non-existent).

Remember this when dealing with Mindless Unead: If an Ant/Rat/Praying Mantis wouldn't do it, the Skeleton won't either. Same with Constructs.

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-22, 10:42 PM
How to defeat daleks: Use stairs. (and none of you ***** mention the new flying ones)
How to defeat undead: turn corners.

It's official: A spiral staircase is the ultimate defensive weapon. This is why all wizards live at the top of tall towers with spiral staircases. Not because they know specifically, but because natural selection has weeded out the ones who didn't.

blazinghand
2009-07-22, 10:52 PM
Even if the skeletons WOULD chase you through the wall, you could make as part of your illusion of the wall an illusion of you running through the wall on your right. That way, even if the skeleton did try to chase you through a wall (depending on how mindless it is), it will attempt to run through an actual wall rather than the illusory one.