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View Full Version : THF Paladin/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator build



Mongoose87
2009-07-23, 01:49 AM
So, I'm trying to design a build here, because I have a feeling my DM doesn't like my Paladin/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage/Sacred Exorcist build. I suspect he finds it too unsuited to my character.

So, in response, and as a fallback, I'm thinking of Paladin/Crusader/ Ruby. The build needs to go to level 25 and needs to include Paladin, and must be human.
So far, I've got
Paladin 5 - Just enough to get most class useful features
Crusader 10
Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
Thoughts? Comments? Advice on feat selection?
Does anyone else hate the Hide requirement to go into Ruby Knight? I mean, I know I'm not going to be using Armored Stealth at all, on the back of my triceratops mount.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-23, 02:27 AM
So, I'm trying to design a build here, because I have a feeling my DM doesn't like my Paladin/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage/Sacred Exorcist build. I suspect he finds it too unsuited to my character.

So, in response, and as a fallback, I'm thinking of Paladin/Crusader/ Ruby. The build needs to go to level 25 and needs to include Paladin, and must be human.
This is doable, but there are some severe problems with the build you have in mind:

So far, I've got
Paladin 5 - Just enough to get most class useful features
It's not worth taking five levels of Paladin, especially in a build like this. Stick to two levels, or better yet go Cleric with Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) 3. If you want a special mount, take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Your Paladin 5 mount only gets stronger based on your class level, which would cut off at 5 making it far too weak to even be useful in the epic levels. Even at 5 levels you'll have too few for Smite Evil to be anything significant, so don't even worry about that.

Crusader 10
It's a good class, but you'd be better off taking RKV a lot sooner, and gaining epic RKV levels (11+) after your 20th level. Don't take more than four levels of this, and I'd even consider using fewer than that.

Ruby Knight Vindicator 10
You need to get into this class asap, and continue taking it past the 10th level in the epic levels. Starting out with Cleric/Prestige Paladin will actually have some useful spellcasting in the epic levels, rather than using it to advance a spellcasting ability that will never even be worthwhile.

Thoughts? Comments? Advice on feat selection?
Does anyone else hate the Hide requirement to go into Ruby Knight? I mean, I know I'm not going to be using Armored Stealth at all, on the back of my triceratops mount.
RKV gets Hide for flavor reasons, it's a bit of a Batman character, not the Wizard build, but the actual Batman, a dark knight who shows up out of nowhere. With Wild Cohort you could get something like a Tiger or a Dire Puma from Sandstorm to use as a mount, which would probably have a better Hide skill than your character.

I'd go Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 2/ Crusader 3/ Prestige Paladin 3/ RKV 10/ Contemplative 1/ Crusader +1/ RKV +5++. Start out with the Knowledge, Magic, and Mind domains, and pick up Law from Contemplative. You'll need Mounted Combat to take Prestige Paladin, so you may as well go all the way to Spirited Charge. Stone Power is a good feat for survivability, Power Attack is good for dealing damage, Shield Specialization and Shield Ward in PH2 are good for defense, (Greater) Heavy Armor Optimization in Races of Stone is useful if you plan on wearing heavy armor. It would also be a good idea to spend a few feats to get Divine Metamagic: Persistent, and/or DMM: Quicken, especially if you can benefit from multiple Night Sticks from Libris Mortis. Darkstalker from Lords of Madness is a must-have for any stealthy character, and I'd work on maxing out Hide with your RKV levels. Sneak in on your mount using its Move Silently checks, take a surprise round to partial charge with Spirited Charge and two-handed power attack, and you'll probably one-shot most opponents if you hit.

Edit: If you use Wild Cohort, see if your DM will let you use the feat Natural Bond in Complete Adventurer to offset the 'level -X' penalty for having a stronger companion. Even consider taking the feat Exalted Companion in BoED to get a Celestial version, which would be good-aligned so it could take VoP and you wouldn't need to invest in any equipment for it.

AslanCross
2009-07-23, 02:35 AM
Does anyone else hate the Hide requirement to go into Ruby Knight? I mean, I know I'm not going to be using Armored Stealth at all, on the back of my triceratops mount.

I like it, actually. The whole point of the RKV is that he's a divinely-empowered assassin. That's why he gets Shadow Hand despite starting off crusader.

Mongoose87
2009-07-23, 10:51 AM
Things

Prestige Paladin isn't really an option. If I'm worried about the strength of my mount, and willing to spend a feat, why not just use Holy Mount, and have those RKV levels stack with it? Also, my character has a near-bottomless supply of money, and can get some pretty sweet gear to keep that mount alive. Also, changing the mount is pretty much out of the question; we've been given the chance to do a rebuild, and the triceratops isn't part of that.

Why is RKV Epic such a high priority? I've never even seen an Epic progression for it?

quick_comment
2009-07-23, 10:59 AM
Why is RKV Epic such a high priority? I've never even seen an Epic progression for it?

Because epic classes grant bonus epic feats.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-23, 01:11 PM
Because epic classes grant bonus epic feats.

Also a fixed BAB and saves progression (which roughly equal a bad BAB and a good saves progression)

However, by not having a defined Epic progression, it is difficult to determine the cycle for bonus feats. It can't be one per two levels as Fighter, as it's meant to have a growth in spell levels. Also, it can't be 5 because it has no class abilities that increase with level. And finally, it can't provide a maneuver progression (only a growth in IL). So it's probably one every three levels or one every four levels, considering the cycle of growth in spell levels.

Meanwhile, by streaming the growth in, say, Cleric or Crusader, you can get more spells or maneuvers. It's important to aim for either a minimum of +16 to BAB or consecutive uses of Divine Power. I'd go further and get at least a minimum in Cleric spellcasting ability of level 6 spells, for Heal, Heroes' Feast and the like. That, alongside Holy Mount, would get a minimum of equivalent Paladin levels of 13, 17 if using Practiced Spellcaster.

Though, I don't see any problem in getting five levels of Paladin. Most people are starting to strongly enforce the two level dip, which is worrisome. I could live with people suggesting a four level dip for the Turn Undead and Divine Feats, or the Cleric/Prestige Paladin for the same method, but just two levels doesn't seem very appropriate just for a Charisma bonus to saves and then nothing else. The only problem I'd see is that the spellcasting won't be very powerful, and there's some spells for Paladins that should be given a second look. Even if regular Clerics can cast most of those.