PDA

View Full Version : Tower Shield Shuffle?



Benejeseret
2009-07-23, 02:48 PM
Question:

What are the exact crunch surrounding converting a Tower Shield to Total Cover?



SRD is vary unclear as it says 'giving up attacks'. Does this mean it is a Standard Action?

So you can move up and then set your Tower Shield to Total Cover to block a doorway etc?

Can you rather set a tower shield to total cover, and then move as a move action if setting it is a standard action?

Coidzor
2009-07-23, 03:48 PM
I too am intrigued by an answer to this question.

AstralFire
2009-07-23, 03:51 PM
I read it as a free action that simply precludes you from taking attacks for the rest of the round.

VirOath
2009-07-23, 04:00 PM
I read it as a free action that simply precludes you from taking attacks for the rest of the round.

The same way that a Withdraw is a move action that precludes you from taking a standard action that round, in it's written format.

After all, you are cowering behind a big sheet of wood/metal. Attacking wouldn't exactly be possible, but doing other actions, like buffing, would be easy.

quick_comment
2009-07-23, 04:16 PM
Now what about an animated tower shield?

Benejeseret
2009-07-23, 04:23 PM
SRD


However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.


Crystal Keep


As a Standard Action, the wielder of a
Tower Shield can receive Total Cover
against creatures on the other side of the
Tower Shield.
- Crystal Keep references (PH p123), (RoS p158), (RotW p168)


Free Action - if this is so, then lets say I have 2 enemies, one in front of me and one to my left. I Free Action to 'set' my shield and block off the guy on the left...what prevents me from attacking the guy in front of me if I still have a Full Round of actions?

If I was a Tower Shield Cleric, getting to 'set' my shield and then cast complex and nasty spells at the guy in front of me seems wrong if I am not allowed to smack him with a stick...


Free/Standard Action - if either of these it true, then I should be able to 'set' my shield and still move. This leads to 'setting' the shield in front of me and then walking straight at a Giant (reach enemy) to give mobile Total Cover and thus ignore all AoO

Random832
2009-07-23, 04:25 PM
Don't forget that even if it's a free action; Total Cover, by definition, blocks line of effect - so that limits what spells you can use.

"the other side of the Tower Shield." I'm not sure I like this wording - it seems like Facing.

Darcand
2009-07-23, 04:27 PM
SRD
Free/Standard Action - if either of these it true, then I should be able to 'set' my shield and still move. This leads to 'setting' the shield in front of me and then walking straight at a Giant (reach enemy) to give mobile Total Cover and thus ignore all AoO

historically, that is exactly what the tower shield was designed to do, provide mobile cover against archer fire.

Benejeseret
2009-07-23, 04:27 PM
The same way that a Withdraw is a move action that precludes you from taking a standard action that round, in it's written format.

Ummm, I don't quite follow your example there. Withdraw is a Full Round Action and is a special type of Hustle, so, of course it precludes standard actions...

Benejeseret
2009-07-23, 04:29 PM
Don't forget that even if it's a free action; Total Cover, by definition, blocks line of effect - so that limits what spells you can use.

Indeed, but ONLY directly in front of the shield...the guy 5' over is fair game to be targeted

AstralFire
2009-07-23, 04:41 PM
Free Action - if this is so, then lets say I have 2 enemies, one in front of me and one to my left. I Free Action to 'set' my shield and block off the guy on the left...what prevents me from attacking the guy in front of me if I still have a Full Round of actions?

The fact that you just gave up your attacks to do so. Give up your attacks is not always the same as using an action in their stead. However, I would go with Crystal Keep here.

Animefunkmaster
2009-07-23, 04:43 PM
Well there is no RAW that I can find that describes this as an action. My group tends to let you do it as a free action at the beginning of your turn.

If it were a straight free action you could:

Full round enemy A, use free action to grant cover from towershield... negating the 'though you must give up your attacks to do so' line by choosing when to activate it.

I see nothing wrong with using a towershield for cover and walking around with it to ignore reach. My group has always had thicket of blades ignoring that (also when building a reach warrior, don't forget exotic weapon master's ability to ignore cover).

Another interesting interaction is tower shield for cover + regular shield for shield bonus to AC.

Benejeseret
2009-07-23, 04:50 PM
Since Thicket of Blades have been mentioned. Let me jump to:

Tower Shield Shuffle 2.0

1) Walk up to the enemy fighter, 'set' the shield (assumes standard action)

-or-

1b) Charge the enemy fighter, attack him, then 'set' the shield between you to give Total Cover.

2) Employ Thicket of Blades along with ways to get a free 5' step during AoO.

-or-

2b) Using feats instead there are two Dragon Magazine feats, one to get AoO if enemy takes 5'step and another to get a free 5' step during AoO.

3) When the enemy steps to the side to get around your total cover, you get an AoO and then TOWER SHIELD SHUFFLE the total cover back between you.

Teron
2009-07-23, 05:22 PM
"the other side of the Tower Shield." I'm not sure I like this wording - it seems like Facing.
It is facing, at least according to the Sage. For what that's worth, of course.

ericgrau
2009-07-23, 06:28 PM
You get total cover, but only wherever the shield is. So you could advance against an ogre or dragon or w/e and negate AoO's. Then you could buff or w/e, but not attack. However on the ogre or dragon's turn all he has to do is move and then attack you. It works especially well is against archer fire, as mentioned, where this is harder to do. It also works well against area spells.

Benejeseret
2009-07-23, 06:59 PM
You get total cover, but only wherever the shield is. So you could advance against an ogre or dragon or w/e and negate AoO's. Then you could buff or w/e, but not attack. However on the ogre or dragon's turn all he has to do is move and then attack you. It works especially well is against archer fire, as mentioned, where this is harder to do. It also works well against area spells.


To the first emphasis - Which is why combining it with Knight's Bulwark Defense means no 5' steps and Stances such as Thicket of Blades is the suggestion - monster tries to move to hit you and you get AoO if the shield is a free/standard action. Other stances or feats let you 5' step at the same time to counter movement.

To the second

Cover and Reflex Saves


Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus. from SRD on Cover

+2 reflex is good, but not stellar and anything that "spreads" negates all of this.

So it seems you'd get +2 reflex against a lightning bolt but nothing against a fog effect or poison cloud etc

Glimbur
2009-07-23, 08:41 PM
What if the archer readies an action to shoot you as a standard action, either with one arrow or that feat that lets you shoot a lot in a standard action? Then as soon as your turn starts you aren't protecting yourself with the shield because the using as cover only lasts one turn, then the readied action interrupts your turn.

Faleldir
2009-07-23, 08:45 PM
It is facing, at least according to the Sage. For what that's worth, of course.
If nothing else uses facing, it could easily be houseruled as a cone effect.

Benejeseret
2009-07-23, 08:58 PM
Cover it technically a line effect.

It is a matter of Line-of-Sight, not facing.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-24, 02:05 AM
The FAQ, while not RAW, has a lot to say about the issue:

Total cover prevents any attack against you. You can
use a tower shield to get total cover if you give up all your
attacks. What does “give up all your attacks” mean? Can
you move while getting total cover from the shield? Can
you cast a spell? Also, do you get total cover from all
directions or from just one side of your square? Will the
total cover from a tower shield negate spell effects? Will it
negate attacks of opportunity from movement or from
other actions such as spellcasting? Will it prevent charge
attacks against you? What about bull rush attacks? Can it
prevent grapple attacks or snatch attacks? Will it stop fear
effects, gaze attacks, or clouds of poison gas? Will it defeat
traps?
To claim total cover from a tower shield, you must use a
standard action. The tower shield rules don’t say that, but that’s
what they mean. Since you can take only one standard action
each round, you cannot also attack, cast a spell, activate a
magic item (except for some use-activated items), use a special
ability, use total defense, or start or complete a full-round
action during the same round you claim total cover from the
shield. You can, however, take a move action before or after
you claim cover from the shield.
Like other kinds of cover, the shield has to have a location
relative to you on the battlefield. When you use the shield for
cover, choose one edge of your space (not a corner). You have
total cover against any attack’s line of effect that passes
through that side of your space. If an attack’s line of effect goes
through the corner of the side of your space that the shield
blocks, you get cover from the shield (+4 AC, +2 on Reflex
saves) instead of total cover. If an attack’s line of effect passes
through a side of your space that the shield does not block, you
get no cover from the shield at all. To determine where the line
of effect enters your space, draw a line from the attacker’s
center to your center. Or, in the case of a magical effect, from
the effect’s point of origin and your center.
Once you claim cover from the shield, the shield keeps
blocking the side of your space that you chose until the
beginning of your next turn, when you can again decide
whether you’ll use the shield for cover. Once you choose the
side of your space that the shield blocks, you cannot change it
until your next turn.
You continue to threaten the area around you while you use
the shield for cover; however, it provides your opponents with
the same benefits you get. You cannot make attacks through the
side of your space that the shield blocks, and should you attack
through the corners of that space, your foe gets cover against
your attack. Since cover of any kind prevents attacks of
opportunity (see page 151 in the PH), the shield keeps you
from making attacks of opportunity in a pretty wide swath.
Total cover or cover from a tower shield has the following
effects in different situations:
• Magical Attacks: A tower shield’s effects on
magical attacks depend on the kind of magical attack.
Any attack aimed at your equipment is aimed at you.
If a magical attack has you as a specific target (that is
it does not merely affect the area that contains you
but is aimed right at you), the shield has no effect. All
rays fall into this category, as does any spell that has
a Target entry in its header and any spell that has an
Effect entry and affects creatures (provided, of
course, that the attacker can and does choose the
shield user as a target). Magical attacks that fill areas
(bursts, cones, cylinders, lines, emanations, and
spreads) are subject to all the rules for cover on page
151 of the PH. Such attacks are completely blocked
if line of effect between you and the attack’s point of
origin passes through the side of your space the
shield blocks. You get cover (+4 AC, +2 on Reflex
saves) if the magical attack’s line of effect passes
through the corner of the blocked side. Spread effects
reach around the shield if they normally would
extend into your space, but you still get a Reflex save
bonus for cover when they do. A gaze attack is
blocked if the shield would give you total cover
against attacks from the creature with the gaze attack.
If the shield gives you cover only, you’re still subject
to the gaze attack (although you could avert or close
your eyes to avoid the attack).
• Attacks of Opportunity: As noted earlier, cover or
total cover prevents attacks of opportunity. So you
could, for example, hunker down behind a tower
shield and pick up a weapon or rummage around in a
backpack and avoid attacks of opportunity against
you. If you’re moving while using the shield for
cover, things get a little more complicated. You must
determine whether the shield gives you cover (or
total cover) at the point during your movement when
you’d normally provoke an attack of opportunity.
Remember that attacks of opportunity are usually
resolved before the actions that provoke them. In
many cases, the shield won’t be positioned correctly
to protect you during your whole move.
• Charging and Bull Rushing: Opponents can charge
you while you claim cover from the shield. An
opponent moves as normal when charging you,
moving to the closest square from which a melee
attack normally would be possible. If the shield gives
you total cover from the attack, the attack
automatically fails. Foes can bull rush you normally,
moving right into your space in spite of the shield.
You normally get an attack of opportunity against
someone entering your space, but not if the shield
gives your foe cover or total cover.
• Grapple and Snatch Attacks: Total cover from a
tower shield blocks such attacks (the foe just can’t
get hold of you). The foe could, however grab the
shield. Conduct such attacks just like any other
grapple or snatch attack. Your foe can’t damage you
unless he pins you first. You can escape the foe’s
hold simply by dropping the shield (a standard action
since it’s strapped to your arm), so long as the foe has
not pinned you.
• Traps: Cover or total cover from a tower shield is
just as effective against a trap as it is against any
other attack.

Benejeseret
2009-07-24, 09:59 AM
Thanks Biffoniacus_Furiou, that was the exact sort of thing I was looking for.

Could you provide the reference for all of that? (ie. what FAQ where)


Recap our discussions based on that:

1) So, according to that my ideas for a AoO-based fight are delayed but not scrapped

Precise Swing - Feat from Eberron lets you ignore cover (not total) and so still threaten the flanking total cover normally 'covered'. Since the shield 'set' is only a Standard Action you still can make AoO

2) It does work better than I thought against area effects. So a cone/line/emmination/burst could be completely blocked, but a fireball or other spread would still envelope you unless you're on the outer edge of the blast (still get +2 reflex)

3) Traps - now there was something I was not considering. When just generally walking through a dungeon it is worth always having total cover against the wall/door most likely to be trapped.

4) Cheesing - always worth a ponder. A Choker with a Tower Shield making 2 standard actions a round might be a real hassle. For that matter, a Choker psionic warrior could move, full round attack, and then standard set the shield with hustle.

5) Make a tactical team (halflings/gnomes/ other small races) with Swarmfighting. You can get alot of those guys into one 5' square that way and if have some attack and then have 5 others of them have tower shields at the end of their collective turn they turtle (left, right, forward, back, up) and gain total cover from everything. According to the spread rules even fireball and spreads no longer have an edge to spread around.