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View Full Version : (3.5) Level Adjustments and Monk quick-fix



Nightmarenny
2009-07-23, 05:36 PM
So here you have the stone giant, it has 14 hit die and a +4 level adjustment and a level of Monk. So what is his ECL? 5? 19? 9?


Alright new questions, can you suggest a good replacement race of that size that can have an ECL of 5. We have made a big mistake and I would like to fix it with the least effort.

Second, I know at High-Levels my PC's monk character will hit a serious decrease in relative ability. Are there any Prestige Class or something that I could offer him?

Kzickas
2009-07-23, 05:37 PM
*casts protection against ninjas*

19

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-23, 05:37 PM
18.

Monk levels do not count.

Kroy
2009-07-23, 05:37 PM
So here you have the stone giant, it has 14 hit die and a +4 level adjustment and a level of Monk. So what is his ECL? 5? 19? 9?

19 14 + 4 + 1. That's his ECL.

18.

Monk levels do not count.
Wins thread.

jmbrown
2009-07-23, 05:43 PM
18.

Monk levels do not count.

This is a good joke but monstrous monks are the scariest thanks to grapple. *shudders*

Mr.Moron
2009-07-23, 05:49 PM
This is a good joke but monstrous monks are the scariest thanks to grapple. *shudders*

I never get why people bring up monks and grapple. They exactly 0 class features that relate to grapple and lower BaB than other classes taking grapple feats. What's the benefit supposed to be?

Furthermore, why are we talking about grapple at 19? Immunity to it came 12 levels ago.

Orran
2009-07-23, 05:51 PM
They can do their unarmed strike damage by making an opposed grapple check?

Riffington
2009-07-23, 05:51 PM
I never get why people bring up monks and grapple. They exactly 0 class features that relate to grapple and lower BaB than other classes taking grapple feats. What's the benefit supposed to be?

Flurry of blows.
Extra damage caused by the successful grapple.
Which may or may not really make up for the BAB, but hey.

Weezer
2009-07-23, 05:52 PM
They can use their unarmed damage in the grapple w/o penalty as opposed to most damage dealers which rely on weapons big enough for a penalty.

Nightmarenny
2009-07-23, 06:08 PM
Alright new questions, can you suggest a good replacement race of that size that can have an ECL of 5. We have made a big mistake and I would like to fix it with the least effort.

Second, I know at High-Levels my PC's monk character will hit a serious decrease in relative ability. Are there any Prestige Class or something that I could offer him?

quick_comment
2009-07-23, 06:42 PM
They can do their unarmed strike damage by making an opposed grapple check?

Monsters with constrict do that better.

And as mentioned before, Freedom of Movement.

Oslecamo
2009-07-23, 06:49 PM
Monsters with constrict do that better.

And as mentioned before, Freedom of Movement.

If all monsters are running around with freedom of movement, then they're also running around with mindblanck and whatever other immunities magic can provide, and sudenly save or dies become useless, so pure damage becomes the only viable for victory.

Wich a large monck can dish out relatively well.

Arbitrarity
2009-07-23, 07:00 PM
Alright new questions, can you suggest a good replacement race of that size that can have an ECL of 5. We have made a big mistake and I would like to fix it with the least effort.

Applying either of the two cheesy templates Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur (dragon 313) would result in a large character, with enormous strength. (LA +1 or 2, depending on source, probably should be +2 to +3, for balance)

As for power, it becomes trickier. I'll think about that one for a moment.

First of all, outright damage, with your strength and size, isn't a bad option. The spell greater mighty wallop, or a fanged ring, would improve your damage significantly.

Another option is to use the Unarmed Swordsage variant from the Tome of Battle (I know you all saw it coming), which would give a variety of attack and defensive options.


One option to improve your monk's abilities would be the Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) class, assuming you have a decent wisdom. This class grants a nice variety of powers which can improve your defenses, offense, and mobility to a great extent, in exchange for (often weak) high level monk abilities. A nice way to abuse the class is to take the Practiced Manifester feat, which gives you a nice bonus to power points and augmenting ability. Also, Expansion.

Aneantir
2009-07-23, 07:05 PM
Wich a large monck can dish out relatively well.

But not nearly as effectively as, say, a large fighter or large barbarian.

Arbitrarity
2009-07-23, 07:18 PM
But not nearly as effectively as, say, a large fighter or large barbarian.

I disagree. Those fists get nasty with Greater Mighty Wallop, much faster than any other weapon. *cough12d8cough*

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-23, 07:26 PM
This is a good joke but monstrous monks are the scariest thanks to grapple. *shudders*

Totemists>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Monks.



This is the general rule for damn near anything the Monk does. Totemists are awesome. The exceptions would be any Monk build that follows Dman's Monk handbooks to a T.



Edit:


f all monsters are running around with freedom of movement, then they're also running around with mindblanck and whatever other immunities magic can provide, and sudenly save or dies become useless, so pure damage becomes the only viable for victory.


Dispel Magic loses to Mind Blank/Freedom of Movement/Deathward? Time Stop loses to anything? Monks can outdamage Novas?



What blasphemy is this?

Indon
2009-07-23, 09:05 PM
Well, Ogres are ECL 6. You could be a half-ogre or half-minotaur, I'm sure they're ECL 5 or under, but I don't recall where either is sourced.

Edit: Man, I was so busy glossing over all the ridiculously nontopical monk hate that I missed that someone made an actual response earlier in the thread. Silly me.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-23, 11:15 PM
I disagree. Those fists get nasty with Greater Mighty Wallop, much faster than any other weapon. *cough12d8cough*"Thog Power Attacks for 523+1d12 damage!"

12dwhat?

BobVosh
2009-07-23, 11:31 PM
"Thog Power Attacks for 523+1d12 damage!"

12dwhat?

I always did feel silly rolling dice damage when power attacking with a fairly optimized barbarian.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-23, 11:42 PM
This is the general rule for damn near anything the Monk does. Totemists are awesome. The exceptions would be any Monk build that follows Dman's Monk handbooks to a T.
Fear the BEARDFIST (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6404306&postcount=47)!

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-24, 08:13 AM
I always did feel silly rolling dice damage when power attacking with a fairly optimized barbarian.

Yeah, because it really sucks when you roll a 1 on that 1d12. Its only 524 damage...

Oslecamo
2009-07-24, 08:24 AM
Dispel Magic loses to Mind Blank/Freedom of Movement/Deathward? Time Stop loses to anything? Monks can outdamage Novas?

What blasphemy is this?

Dispel magic and friends lose to greater spell immunity. Or just insane caster levels, since dispel magic caps fairly quickly. Or anything that stops the caster from targeting the monster directly. Sure you can dispel area, but good luck taking out one buff at a time.

Time stop wins, but it wins because you're using it to set up a situation where your enemy is gonna take a lot of damage as soon as the time stop ends(rocks fall, everybody else dies being my favorite).

And I didn't say the monck outdamaged novas. I said it can dish it out fairly well. You really don't need to deal one trillion damage to take out that balor.

bosssmiley
2009-07-24, 08:37 AM
By the RAW: 14 + 4 + 1 = ECL19 (at CR9)
By the 'eyeball it' rule: 8 (CR) + 1 (for elite stat array/being a PC) +1 (class level) = ECL10 (at CR9)

I'll leave you to decide which one actually makes sense. :smallwink:

Suffice it to say LA is self-hobbling gobbledegook, and the monster as PC rules as written DO NOT WORK

Roderick_BR
2009-07-24, 11:36 AM
I disagree. Those fists get nasty with Greater Mighty Wallop, much faster than any other weapon. *cough12d8cough*
Everything a monk can get, a fighter, barbarian,or whatever can get it too, and then do it better with more BAB (to burn into Power Attack), more strengths without having to nerf other important stats, two-handed weapons (better PA output) with dozens of enchantments that monks need to pay 3 times more to get.
Monk, as it is in the 3.0/3.5, is not a front line warrior. Blame WotC designers.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-24, 01:21 PM
Everything a monk can get, a fighter, barbarian,or whatever can get it too, and then do it better with more BAB (to burn into Power Attack), more strengths without having to nerf other important stats, two-handed weapons (better PA output) with dozens of enchantments that monks need to pay 3 times more to get.

Monk, as it is in the 3.0/3.5, is not a front line warrior. Blame WotC designers.

Well, it behaves either as a DD/striker that tries to behave as a frontline warrior, or a tank that tries to behave as a DD/striker. It's also pretty front-lined, what with having things like flurry of blows and evasion at the first levels, then the rest of the abilities turning into something not so powerful.

In theory, a Monk should have been capable of killing an arcane spellcaster pretty easily by having a high SR, high mobility, solid damage, stunning capabilities and a 1-time escape tactic for essentially hit-and-run. Not only does it fail spectacularly in practice, but the Wizard and the Sorcerer pretty much countered that spectacularly.

So, the decision is whether to treat it as a "Striker" and attempt to do as much damage as possible while someone else draws all the hits, or treat it as a tank and just forget about attacking. Both need some thought, since you can either only increase your damage output to something stellar or your AC and saves to something relatively decent.

I agree with working with either Psionic Fist or Tashalatora/Psychic Warrior. Either one of the two is decent, since one build essentially front-loads the other, while the other is a bit slower but in the end slightly more focused. Entering Psionic Fist you improve most of your old monk abilities, get at least 10 psionic powers and a decent amount of PP, and two psionic feats for Practiced Manifester and Expanded Knowledge (which are the best feats for a Psionically-inclined Monk) A Tashalatora Monk/PsyWar is relatively stronger since it has a wider weapon choice, a larger set of psionic feats and roughly the same abilities aside from the flurry increment, in exchange for a bit less PP and delayed power progression. Both are pretty balanced, with one being better for flurry builds while the other being better for general building.

I'd also consider, even though it may seem a bit of a blow to the saves, a Tashalatora Monk/Ardent. It has a limited set of psionic powers, but you have the flexibility of choosing from the mantles, a bigger set of psionic powers, and if worked correctly the chance to get up to 9th level psionic powers, depending on your choice of mantles. That alone makes the combination pretty strong, even though in the end you're just being more of an Ardent and less of a Monk (just an Ardent that takes advantage of the Monk synergy for some special abilities) You could even work with Monk/Divine Mind if you get good stats so as to ignore MAD (and thus get Divine Grace for Cha to saves, as well as Wis to AC)