PDA

View Full Version : How would this affect higher level play?



Frosty
2009-07-23, 08:08 PM
High powered buffs are one of many reasons why casters rule. Even wizards can cast Heart of Water to have a Get-out-of-Grapple-free card. So, what if Freedom of Movement, Heart of Water, and any spell that auto-defeats grapples were scrapped? Would that make grappling a viable tactic at all for higher level characters that spec out for it (assume proper optimization)?

Some Arcane casters will still be able make sure the grapple never lands in the first place, but there are many divine casters as well who may feel the pain. Assume that Celerity, Contingency and Foresight are also removed and that there Divinations to ask what will happen tomorrow also don't work and that you Persist metamagic doesn't exist.

Dimension Door should still work, but you can only prepare so many a day.

Kalirren
2009-07-23, 10:18 PM
In terms of planning and buffs, I don't think it would change all that much, really. You can prepare stilled 1st-8th level spells, and you can use sudden metamagic/metamagic rods to still 9th level spells as well.

I guess before you've finished your progression through to 20th level, it would be an effective way of forcing a prepared enemy spellcaster effectively down a spell level. Any unprepared spellcaster would be effectively neutralized.

Musng: Maybe that's the point of the monk class? take a prestige class like Crinti shadow rider for the class feature that lets you full attack upon emerging from a dim door effect?

Mr.Moron
2009-07-23, 10:23 PM
There are more low level short range teleports than just dimension door. Heck, even abrupt jaunt can do a decent job of it (so long as your DM rules Spell-likes can be used in a grapple). Not to mention how much you have to just avoid getting grapple initiated on you.

"Grapple" just isn't an answer to high level casters. Even the "No!"s like Freedom of Movement out of the picture.

Kallisti
2009-07-23, 10:27 PM
Unless you scrap dozens of spells, any high-level caster will be able to escape a grapple.

The answer to high-level casters isn't grapple. It's a wand of Mrdenkainen's Disjuction or an Anti-magic Field. At low levels, casters are effectively dead weight, but at high levels you need another caster to take them.

Kalirren
2009-07-23, 10:44 PM
Well, you could just have your caster or your archer ready to slap an anti-magic field down upon the grappler making successful contact. Sure, it requires the cooperation of your team's caster, but D&D isn't typically played as a solo game, and I think most groups would be quite happy trading the actions of their grapplefighter for the actions of an enemy caster. I guess a point worth making here is that as soon as a grapple is established on a caster, and the anti-magic field is activated, it's very hard for that caster to get -out- of that bind. This doesn't tend to work when the grapple cannot be established in the first place.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-23, 10:46 PM
At low levels, casters are effectively dead weight, but at high levels you need another caster to take them.


What? Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm) can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) contribute (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) plenty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) at (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/doom.htm) low (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/causeFear.htm) levels. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bless.htm). From (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm) one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bane.htm) they (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm) quite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unseenServant.htm) useful. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm).

Heck, at the very minimum levels their out-of-spells crossbow is non-trivial damage. Once you get up to level 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) and (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyII.htm) Start (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm) getting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) 2nd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury.htm) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiderClimb.htm) and maybe reserve feats in play they just get better and better. There is no point in the game where casters can't shine. It's just at low levels they aren't 100% sure to OUTshine.

...and that's just Core spells.

lsfreak
2009-07-23, 10:47 PM
The bigger problem than escaping a grapple is, how do you get close enough when the wizard has a fly speed twice as fast as your run speed?

Milskidasith
2009-07-23, 10:47 PM
Unless you scrap dozens of spells, any high-level caster will be able to escape a grapple.

The answer to high-level casters isn't grapple. It's a wand of Mrdenkainen's Disjuction or an Anti-magic Field. At low levels, casters are effectively dead weight, but at high levels you need another caster to take them.

Mordekainen's disjunction? If you feel like making all your players hate you and dropping them down in power by a huge amount, then sure, that's a decent solution.

Frosty
2009-07-23, 10:51 PM
The bigger problem than escaping a grapple is, how do you get close enough when the wizard has a fly speed twice as fast as your run speed?

Because sometimes you fight in a place where the ceiling is 8 feet tall? Also, have your fellow caster cast Fly OR Dispel the enemy caster. There's plenty of ways to get *to* the caster especially if the environment is not an open plain.

Abrupt Jaunt really is the only problem, and no every caster has that. The point is not to kill a caster with grapple, it's to make him waste actions teleporting, especially if you ban all swift-action teleportation effects.

Milskidasith
2009-07-23, 10:52 PM
If you start banning 10000 different spells just to make grappling the wizard a viable idea, they will still outshine your fighters.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-23, 10:55 PM
Because sometimes you fight in a place where the ceiling is 8 feet tall? Also, have your fellow caster cast Fly OR Dispel the enemy caster. There's plenty of ways to get *to* the caster especially if the environment is not an open plain.

Abrupt Jaunt really is the only problem, and no every caster has that. The point is not to kill a caster with grapple, it's to make him waste actions teleporting, especially if you ban all swift-action teleportation effects.

Of course, when he gets wind that your strategy in encounters is "Trap him in a small places and grapple" suddenly in future encounters the terrain starts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passwall.htm) to (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) change (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm).

9mm
2009-07-23, 11:04 PM
This all of course assumes that the caster can make the consentration check, but yes grappling becomes a less viable tactic over time unless the grappler in question is heavily buffed and optimized to do it.

Things to always remember:
If it requires a material component, the spell requires a grapple check to get that component out to cast the spell, still+silent isn't enough.
Grapples always do unarmed+armor spike damage on a successful grapple check to establish a grapple.
Grapple checks are required if they don't use still-spell, pinning can block semantics so remember to always block speech,
and finally you STILL THREATEN THE GRAPPLED CASTER, so a cast defensively check is needed, or you can increase the consentration dc higher.

but once freedom of movement and the like are reliably on, grappling just kinda dies unless you are completely optimized to do anti-caster grappling which means grasp of the scorpion, a dispelling weapon, and superior unarmed strike at the least.

Kalirren
2009-07-23, 11:05 PM
Fine, the terrain changes shape. An action spent changing terrain is just about as strong of a reward as an action spent teleporting. As I understand it, the point isn't to fix the balance of the RAW system, the point is to see how much of a perturbation of the rules it would take for grappling to be reliably useful.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-23, 11:09 PM
This all of course assumes that the caster can make the consentration check, but yes grappling becomes a less viable tactic over time unless the grappler in question is heavily buffed and optimized to do it.


No it doesn't. It assumes the caster beats the big grappler in initiative (they do, if they want to) and does something to make the obvious "ME BIG GRAPPLE MAN" a non-factor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/solidfog.htm) on the first round. . After the first few times or even just one time doing this they will start to prepare against it. This isn't case of "Well they won't have it prepared" a lot of these spells are just generally useful enough that high-level caster will have at least one or two prepared at any given time. When they aren't grapple-paranoid. Once they are, forget about it.

EDIT: It's fine to try and find a houserule "Patch" for issue. Removing Freedom of Movement and trying to grapple isn't it.

Of course, caster power level isn't a problem so long as the player behind them knows how to "Play Nice" isn't being a jerk with his ability to toy with the universe.

9mm
2009-07-23, 11:21 PM
No it doesn't. It assumes the caster beats the big grappler pm initiative (they do, if they want to)

no they don't, this is the biggest fallicy of all, you can bump up you modifier like crazy, but in the end it's still a d20 roll, I've seen rouges with eager+nerveskitter go last, and clerics in heavy armor go first without them.

13_CBS
2009-07-23, 11:28 PM
no they don't, this is the biggest fallicy of all, you can bump up you modifier like crazy, but in the end it's still a d20 roll, I've seen rouges with eager+nerveskitter go last, and clerics in heavy armor go first without them.

Yes, but how often does that happen?

olentu
2009-07-23, 11:28 PM
no they don't, this is the biggest fallicy of all, you can bump up you modifier like crazy, but in the end it's still a d20 roll, I've seen rouges with eager+nerveskitter go last, and clerics in heavy armor go first without them.

I presume the celerity line with or without a way to avoid the daze was what assured going first.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-23, 11:31 PM
I presume the celerity line with or without a way to avoid the daze was what assured going first.

Nope. Just ordinary initiative modifiers. "They do" was a bit of hyperbole on my part (celerity just makes it a true sure-fire thing. Extra-action spells/abilties are just another level of unfair). The point is if someone has a much larger modifier than you, you can't build your tactics around going before them. You have to assume they're going to go first and they are going to throw out whatever movement restriction spell they have. They're going to have one, or two or three since those sorts of spells are just so useful beyond just avoiding grapples.

9mm
2009-07-23, 11:45 PM
I presume the celerity line with or without a way to avoid the daze was what assured going first.

Hey, if they want to burn an 8'th level spell just to trap a mundane melee guy for a round or two, that's fine with me. It'd be quite stupid, but it'd be fine, especially if the DM (like mine) forces the daze effect through. As I said initially, grappling becomes a less viable tactic at higher levels, but to suggest it is instantly useless is wrong.

olentu
2009-07-24, 12:05 AM
Hey, if they want to burn an 8'th level spell just to trap a mundane melee guy for a round or two, that's fine with me. It'd be quite stupid, but it'd be fine, especially if the DM (like mine) forces the daze effect through. As I said initially, grappling becomes a less viable tactic at higher levels, but to suggest it is instantly useless is wrong.

Eh if they do not need the move action basic celerity is only fourth if I remember correctly though I guess that it was removed but in any case if by the DM forces the daze effect through you mean that houseruleing that the daze effect works through immunity and could not possibly be removed in any way, I would say that in general it might be easier to just houserule out the top two spells of the line.

Edit: instead of just the lower one.

Frosty
2009-07-24, 12:13 AM
Yes, in our games we're outlawing Celerity. We don't allow spells that grant extra actions, except for Timestop.

And sure you *could* optimize for initiative, but how many NPC casters have a Hummingbird familiar and took Improved Init? Nerveskitter is common enough I'll grant.

olentu
2009-07-24, 12:19 AM
Yes, in our games we're outlawing Celerity. We don't allow spells that grant extra actions, except for Timestop.

And sure you *could* optimize for initiative, but how many NPC casters have a Hummingbird familiar and took Improved Init? Nerveskitter is common enough I'll grant.

Well if you mean the whole line rather then just celerity then there is no problem.

AstralFire
2009-07-24, 12:26 AM
Nerfing spells to bring casters down is quite easy as long as you stick to core + only autoapprove direct damage spells from non-core. Most broken stuff in core is quickly obvious with little thought - broken stuff from outside core is the result of daisychaining a bunch of things for an insane combination. (e.g. 'oh a spell to give a huge init boost doesn't seem too bad, except that that higher initiative pairs with a bunch of spells that let you effectively one-round someone from very far away.') That and sheer versatility for any prepared casters with divination.

Ponce
2009-07-24, 12:31 AM
Its very hard to get your initiative bonus high enough such that the initiative count isn't dominated by the d20. Its not like a damage roll or a high level skill check where the modifier blows away the dice. Granted, if you really try, you can get a damned good bonus, plus lucky start can help out too (but many find the value of luck feats questionable) but thats a pretty hefty investment of feats and items.

I would say to modify Grapple-Immunity spells to give casters a decent chance to get out of grapples. If you completely shut down FoM-esque abilities and teleportation, monster grappling becomes extremely powerful (for the same reasons why PCs can't reliably use grappling offensively, monsters just end up with obscene modifiers). At high levels, the caster will be facing modifiers he can never beat (essentially meaning he's monster chow once he's grappled). Its good to have a strong anti-caster tactic, but by the same token, there should be SOME way to have a CHANCE at countering it. Something like Grease, perhaps, though higher level and more specialized, so that they have to spend actions to escape (thus harming a caster's most precious resource).

Myrmex
2009-07-24, 12:42 AM
What? Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm) can (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) contribute (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm) plenty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) at (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/doom.htm) low (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/causeFear.htm) levels. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bless.htm). From (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm) one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bane.htm) they (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm) quite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unseenServant.htm) useful. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm).

Heck, at the very minimum levels their out-of-spells crossbow is non-trivial damage. Once you get up to level 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) and (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyII.htm) Start (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm) getting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) 2nd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury.htm) level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiderClimb.htm) and maybe reserve feats in play they just get better and better. There is no point in the game where casters can't shine. It's just at low levels they aren't 100% sure to OUTshine.

...and that's just Core spells.

Check out their spells/day table. They can only be useful a couple times.

And before anyone mentions HPs, HP are CHEAP. A wand of Lesser Vigor is 750 gp.

There are only a few offensive level 1 spells worth getting in a wand, and most won't pack enough punch to be worth getting over the wand of Lesser Vigor and just letting your offensive line hit the enemy.

Yahzi
2009-07-24, 12:53 AM
There are only a few offensive level 1 spells worth getting in a wand
Sleep?

At level 1, I think it's a pretty powerful spell. And if you don't use it up in your mandatory 40 encounters before moving up to 3rd level, you can sell it to a newb.

Mr.Moron
2009-07-24, 12:54 AM
Check out their spells/day table. They can only be useful a couple times.


This doesn't make them "Dead Weight" (which was that post was addressing) those low level spell effects are still very powerful. Once out of spells a Cleric can still bop things with their mace, a druid their staff.. their animal companion is better than anyone. Wizards are worse off, but when you're still facing goblins and the like the cross bow is non-trivial. If they put a major dent or even outright remove a big threat with something like Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, or get the extra muscle the group needs with enlarge person... they've already played a major part in that encounter. Even at level 1 you're looking 2-3 spells per day (1 + 1 Bonus, +1 Specialist/Domain.. more if you go focused or if you're doing point buy with a racial bonus to your primary). That's enough to throw out one of those powerful effects in more than half of an average day's encounters. That certainly makes for more than "Dead Weight".

Talic
2009-07-24, 01:03 AM
Well, Shapechange renders grapple functionally useless.

As does Gaseous Form.

As does a variety of other effects.

Milskidasith
2009-07-24, 01:11 AM
No matter how much you ban, a wizard is still going to be able to completely avoid melee after a certain level, unless you ban everything but direct damage spells. Even at level 1, they can eliminate a good few melee threats, and by level 5, their third level spells just make melee trivial unless you specifically set up the battle to kill the party wizard. And if you do that... well, anything small enough to keep a wizard from flying is probably going to be small enough to keep the melee characters surrounding him. The only way I can think of to keep a wizard from being totally invincible from melee characters would be to force him into an AMF (a huge one) and no wizard would ever want to go into one of those willingly.

Wizards are just too strong and too versatile to be forced into melee without destroying everything on their spell list that does anything but direct damage.

jmbrown
2009-07-24, 01:19 AM
I don't understand how grappling becomes a less viable tactic at higher level when most high level monsters either have improved grapple or an attack that instant grapples. It's pretty difficult to escape from a huge monster with 30+ strength that has you in a vice grip. Still spell may negate verbal components but you still have to concentrate or you'll get a slap to the face.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-24, 01:29 AM
I don't understand how grappling becomes a less viable tactic at higher level when most high level monsters either have improved grapple or an attack that instant grapples. It's pretty difficult to escape from a huge monster with 30+ strength that has you in a vice grip. Still spell may negate verbal components but you still have to concentrate or you'll get a slap to the face.Concentration checks are trivial by mid levels. Freedom of Movement is common once you get 5th level spells. Dim Door gets you out with no need for meta and should always be prepared. And besides, you still have to hit the flying invisible caster behind the meatwall. So grappling v PCs just serves to illustrate one more thing casters are immune to but Fighters aren't.

jmbrown
2009-07-24, 02:01 AM
Concentration checks are trivial by mid levels. Freedom of Movement is common once you get 5th level spells. Dim Door gets you out with no need for meta and should always be prepared. And besides, you still have to hit the flying invisible caster behind the meatwall. So grappling v PCs just serves to illustrate one more thing casters are immune to but Fighters aren't.

While freedom of movement is automatic grapple check, I wouldn't say the concentration check is trivial. A still spelled dimension door is a DC 25 under a grapple. Assuming your wizard has 10 con without any other feats adding to concentration you're looking at +10 at 7th level which is less than 40% chance to cast.

Most higher level creatures also have extra sensing abilities like scent and they can fly too. IDK the DM's I play with are old "salts" who know how to work around every ability so broken stuff like force caging myself to cast magic or the druid wild shaping into a fleshraker always get beaten through smart play.

lsfreak
2009-07-24, 02:05 AM
Check out their spells/day table. They can only be useful a couple times.

A standard focused specialist wizard has 7 spell slots per day, and with even minimal optimization have DC's high enough that even people strong versus the save type fail more than half the time. A little bit more optimization and a well-chosen target will fail 80% of the time and you end up with multiple 2nd-level spells as well.

EDIT: Not to mention you already have a no-save-just-suck, in the form of Grease.
Also EDIT: No decent caster has a +0 to Con. Most aim for +3, +2 if it's a lower point-buy or they had poor rolls. By 10th level, you can afford an item that gives +10 to Concentration and never have to every worry about actually rolling the check.

Frosty
2009-07-24, 02:16 AM
A standard focused specialist wizard has 7 spell slots per day, and with even minimal optimization have DC's high enough that even people strong versus the save type fail more than half the time. A little bit more optimization and a well-chosen target will fail 80% of the time and you end up with multiple 2nd-level spells as well.

EDIT: Not to mention you already have a no-save-just-suck, in the form of Grease.
Also EDIT: No decent caster has a +0 to Con. Most aim for +3, +2 if it's a lower point-buy or they had poor rolls. By 10th level, you can afford an item that gives +10 to Concentration and never have to every worry about actually rolling the check.

Casters that make it to high levels do try to have good con yes, but items that give +10 concentration are rare, and not every world has the items mentioned in the MiC. If your wizard is a crafter, then he mght be able to do it, but the DM is still free to disallow custom items.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-24, 02:37 AM
While freedom of movement is automatic grapple check, I wouldn't say the concentration check is trivial. A still spelled dimension door is a DC 25 under a grapple. Assuming your wizard has 10 con without any other feats adding to concentration you're looking at +10 at 7th level which is less than 40% chance to cast. Why still'd? It has no Somatic anyways(and even if it was, the DC would still be 24, a metamagic'd 4th level spell is stil level 4).
Most higher level creatures also have extra sensing abilities like scent and they can fly too. IDK the DM's I play with are old "salts" who know how to work around every ability so broken stuff like force caging myself to cast magic or the druid wild shaping into a fleshraker always get beaten through smart play.But why wouldn't the DM put that same level of pressure on the other players? The Fighter has about 3 abilities that can allow it to perform in combat, all of which a smart enemy should find a block for just to justify it having lived to CR7. Meanwhile, a Wizard has 4+ abilities per spell level. A Cleric gets to choose a new set of abilities each day. A Druid gets every ability in the book, and has a pet to help him, besides.

Quietus
2009-07-24, 03:57 AM
If you think "No" spells are ruining your game, don't scrap them; Just nerf them. Make it a basic rule, and make sure your players know : Any spell that AUTOMATICALLY stops all spells/actions/attacks of a particular nature instead give a bonus based on caster level to your attempts to resist them. Freedom of Movement? +caster level to grapple/escape artist checks to escape grapples or bonds. Death Ward? Trickier... +1/2 caster level on saves, and all Death/Negative Energy effects get saves? Or perhaps effective SR of 10+caster level, opposed by a level check (caster level or otherwise) by the person trying to penetrate it? So someone casting Finger of Death would get a caster level check, while a vampire would have to make a basic level check to land its Negative Levels.

Laying out a basic rule of "Spells that totally negate effects are nerfed, exactly how they're nerfed will be determined on a case by case basis", in my opinion, is better than simply saying "You can never cast Freedom of Movement/Death Ward/etc".

AstralFire
2009-07-24, 09:31 AM
If you think "No" spells are ruining your game, don't scrap them; Just nerf them. Make it a basic rule, and make sure your players know : Any spell that AUTOMATICALLY stops all spells/actions/attacks of a particular nature instead give a bonus based on caster level to your attempts to resist them. Freedom of Movement? +caster level to grapple/escape artist checks to escape grapples or bonds. Death Ward? Trickier... +1/2 caster level on saves, and all Death/Negative Energy effects get saves? Or perhaps effective SR of 10+caster level, opposed by a level check (caster level or otherwise) by the person trying to penetrate it? So someone casting Finger of Death would get a caster level check, while a vampire would have to make a basic level check to land its Negative Levels.

Laying out a basic rule of "Spells that totally negate effects are nerfed, exactly how they're nerfed will be determined on a case by case basis", in my opinion, is better than simply saying "You can never cast Freedom of Movement/Death Ward/etc".

A Wizard who really wants to get away still can, with stuff like Gaseous Form. Spells that directly say 'no' should just be snuffed out, outright.

9mm
2009-07-24, 11:01 AM
Concentration checks are trivial by mid levels. Freedom of Movement is common once you get 5th level spells. Dim Door gets you out with no need for meta and should always be prepared. And besides, you still have to hit the flying invisible caster behind the meatwall. So grappling v PCs just serves to illustrate one more thing casters are immune to but Fighters aren't.

freedom of movement has 4 components, so casting it to get out of a grapple will be extremely problematic; and if you have it on before hand that's what the greater dispelling weapon is for. Dim-door is viable if your not pinned, but since grappler's benefit from pounce as much as any other (pinning is an attack option) if he got his hands on you your going to have to silent it increasing the initial consentration to NOT PROVOKE and the second to cast though the pain. skill tricks are expensive, but can get through invisibility if the grappler doesn't want to spend money, fighters will need to buy something for flight. (or be something that flies).

Is it an up-hill battle, yes. Is it so impossible the grappler can't win, no.

Gnaeus
2009-07-24, 12:45 PM
Is it possible to nerf wizards enough that a grappler can succeed? Probably. Does that make grappling a viable tactic against high level casters? No.

1. It is a specialty route that immobilizes only a single opponent. It requires 2 feats, a size buff, and probably other specialist gear. But it is useless against a very large class of enemy monsters, who will out grapple you no matter what you do. It is useless against larger numbers of mooks. And then there are the things that you don't WANT to grapple.

2. So, you have taken away Heart of Water. The Celerity line of spells. Abrupt jaunt. The ring of free action. The other items that beat grapples or let you teleport as a swift action x per day. The contingency designed for "if someone grapples me". Then, if you nerf the magic items that let the wizard auto succeed on his concentration, you only need to bypass his miss chance and flight, and then you have grappled the wizard if he makes a bad concentration check with his silent D Door. Uhm, yay? Wouldn't it have been easier to pull out your Adamantine great axe and do 150 damage to him?

3. And if you try that broken noise against a druid, he will demonstrate why huge animals are not generally afraid of grapple by grappling YOU, while his pet chews up your flat footed AC.

4. And then theres the cleric. With his persisted Divine Power and Righteous Might, his grapple check is as good as yours. If Mystra taught him how to cheat, he can outgrapple you inside an Anti-Magic Field.

Compare this with a good lockdown fighter build. Spiked Chain, Mage Slayer line of feats, Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip. Thats a fighter that has utility against a lot more opponents, and is going to fare better against most casters.

Frosty
2009-07-24, 07:42 PM
Is it possible to nerf wizards enough that a grappler can succeed? Probably. Does that make grappling a viable tactic against high level casters? No.

1. It is a specialty route that immobilizes only a single opponent. It requires 2 feats, a size buff, and probably other specialist gear. But it is useless against a very large class of enemy monsters, who will out grapple you no matter what you do. It is useless against larger numbers of mooks. And then there are the things that you don't WANT to grapple.

2. So, you have taken away Heart of Water. The Celerity line of spells. Abrupt jaunt. The ring of free action. The other items that beat grapples or let you teleport as a swift action x per day. The contingency designed for "if someone grapples me". Then, if you nerf the magic items that let the wizard auto succeed on his concentration, you only need to bypass his miss chance and flight, and then you have grappled the wizard if he makes a bad concentration check with his silent D Door. Uhm, yay? Wouldn't it have been easier to pull out your Adamantine great axe and do 150 damage to him?

3. And if you try that broken noise against a druid, he will demonstrate why huge animals are not generally afraid of grapple by grappling YOU, while his pet chews up your flat footed AC.

4. And then theres the cleric. With his persisted Divine Power and Righteous Might, his grapple check is as good as yours. If Mystra taught him how to cheat, he can outgrapple you inside an Anti-Magic Field.

Compare this with a good lockdown fighter build. Spiked Chain, Mage Slayer line of feats, Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip. Thats a fighter that has utility against a lot more opponents, and is going to fare better against most casters.

I said Persist is also banned, so Clerics won't bne out-grappling you. But I get your point. At this point, Lockdown will be much better than Grapple because it doesn't take up your standard actiomns. Instead you just need to have enough AoOs.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-24, 08:28 PM
Out the top of my head, spells/effects that overcome grapple:

Freedom of Movement.
Ghostform (incorporeal stuff can't be grappled)
Shapechange: any incorporeal
Repulsion (how are they gonna get closer?)
Antilife Shell (for divine casters. You can't touch me, no save)
Fire Shield (if grappler takes damage while attempting to establish a hold, grapple fails)
Repel metal/stone (shaped into a cylinder-nobody weaping metal can get close)
Mirror Image

And that's mostly core.

Gnaeus
2009-07-25, 08:20 AM
I said Persist is also banned, so Clerics won't bne out-grappling you.

Then he takes Quicken instead. He still out grapples you, he just doesn't out grapple you after the second or third encounter of the day.